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70th Week of Daniel

There was a church but it was not 'THE' church. If there was a church in the old testament, the Israelites would have no need to convert to Christ, because they would already be part of Christ's body. The church as a new entity, of people purchased by Christ's blood, aka the body of Christ, started in Acts 2:1-4. In Matt 16:18 Jesus said He would build His church. Therefore the church was not built yet. Christ is the foundation of the church (1 Cor 3:11), and before Christ came there was no church, just a gathering of God's people. In new testament useage, the word church has greater meaning than merely a gathering of God's people. The difference between old testament assemblies and new testament church is like night and day. The former is a gathering of uncrucified and unregenerated people with a common interest, the latter is a crucified body of Christ, of which every member drinks of the one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13.


In Old Testament times were there believing Jews and unbelieving Jews? If so, are the believing Jews part of the body of Christ or something else? What was the promise to Abraham about? Was it just about land? To be in Christ what does it mean to have the "faith of Abraham"?
 
In Old Testament times were there believing Jews and unbelieving Jews? If so, are the believing Jews part of the body of Christ or something else? What was the promise to Abraham about? Was it just about land? To be in Christ what does it mean to have the "faith of Abraham"?

The inheritance of Abraham was the church, which was not fulfilled in the time of Abraham or the time of Moses but in the time of Christ. In the Old Testament there was nothing that looked like the body of Christ, the church of the new testament. Please tell us which church Adam and Eve and Noah and Moses went to?
How can the body of Christ exist in the old testament before Christ was born and died for our sins and before the Holy Spirit was given ? The Jews were known as the "people of God", not sons and daughters of God by new birth by Christ's blood.

The word church simply means 'assembly'. To your credit, there was an assembly in the old testament, but not in the same sense as the new. In the new testament, the assembly are brothers and sisters in Christ, and not merely 'people of God'. 95% of churches and denominations today believe they are people of God, but they don't treat each other like brothers and sisters in Christ. Worldly friendships outside of church take priority over godly relationships between brothers and sisters in Christ. That's why there's so much strife and division and everyone cares for building their own family and friendships instead of caring for God's house (the church).
 
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In Old Testament times were there believing Jews and unbelieving Jews? If so, are the believing Jews part of the body of Christ or something else? What was the promise to Abraham about? Was it just about land? To be in Christ what does it mean to have the "faith of Abraham"?

Hello Bambi.

Abraham believed God and the righteousness of Christ was credited to Abraham.
This does not mean that Abraham was a part of the body of Christ, Bambi.
Abraham only looked forward in faith to the future fulfillment of the promise.


Hebrews 11
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Old testament saints 'did not receive what was promised' until the New Covenant of Christ
was established. Membership of the church was not available until the 'right time'.

Romans 5:6
For while we were still helpless, at the 'right time' Christ died for the ungodly.

The church or body of Christ, or even better the Kingdom of Christ. Comes into
existence after the establishment of the New Covenant. A Covenant established
by the Blood of Christ. Only then does the New Covenant Church begin and
then Abraham can pass through the turnstiles.

Old testament saints looked ahead to the future fulfillment, the reality of the
Kingdom of God realized in the messiah (the seed).
 
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The inheritance of Abraham was the church, which was not fulfilled in the time of Abraham or the time of Moses but in the time of Christ. In the Old Testament there was nothing that looked like the body of Christ, the church of the new testament. Please tell us which church Adam and Eve and Noah and Moses went to?
How can the body of Christ exist in the old testament before Christ was born and died for our sins and before the Holy Spirit was given ? The Jews were known as the "people of God", not sons and daughters of God by new birth by Christ's blood.

In Revelation 13:8 it says that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. Everything concerning the Jews and God's law were shadows of the real thing. The sacrifices, the temple, the Jews themselves were shadows of the real thing. Jesus fulfilled the sacrifices, the temple now is the body of Christ, the Jews the church. The only different between Old Testament and New T believers is one was looking forward to the cross the other was looking back. Their beliefs were the same. Technically, yes I can see how you can say they "were not". But in eternity "they were". Still if you don't think they were then do you think they are now or are they in a different group still? [/QUOTE]
 
Hello Bambi.

Abraham believed God and the righteousness of Christ was credited to Abraham.
This does not mean that Abraham was a part of the body of Christ, Bambi.
Abraham only looked forward in faith to the future fulfillment of the promise.


Hebrews 11
39 And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Old testament saints 'did not receive what was promised' until the New Covenant of Christ
was established. Membership of the church was not available until the 'right time'.

Romans 5:6
For while we were still helpless, at the 'right time' Christ died for the ungodly.

The church or body of Christ, or even better the Kingdom of Christ. Comes into
existence after the establishment of the New Covenant. A Covenant established
by the Blood of Christ. Only then does the New Covenant Church begin and
then Abraham can pass through the turnstiles.

Old testament saints looked ahead to the future fulfillment, the reality of the
Kingdom of God realized in the messiah (the seed).

I think I would agree with you. Abraham did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as we do now, it was a different covenant. My question to you is are they now part of the body of Christ? Because the point I've been making is it's not Replacement it's Fulfillment.
 
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In Revelation 13:8 it says that Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. Everything concerning the Jews and God's law were shadows of the real thing. The sacrifices, the temple, the Jews themselves were shadows of the real thing. Jesus fulfilled the sacrifices, the temple now is the body of Christ, the Jews the church. The only different between Old Testament and New T believers is one was looking forward to the cross the other was looking back. Their beliefs were the same. Technically, yes I can see how you can say they "were not". But in eternity "they were". Still if you don't think they were then do you think they are now or are they in a different group still?

I'm not talking about in eternity I'm talking about in time. "in eternity" everything exists, because God exists outside of time, everyone who has died (in time), is actually living to Him in eternity (Luke 20:38). Matt 8:10-12 says we will sit with Abraham etc, so yes the body of Christ includes all the saints of God from Adam and Eve to future. But Abraham could not belong to the body until the Head ascended into the Heavens.

[h=1][/h]
 
But Abraham could not belong to the body until the Head ascended into the Heavens.

OK, So when Christ ascended into heaven they became the body of Christ. But they did have a place in the body of Christ, a reservation. They just couldn't get it until Christ ascended. So it still can't be Replacement it has to be Fulfillment.
 
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OK, So when Christ ascended into heaven they became the body of Christ. But they did have a place in the body of Christ, a reservation. They just couldn't get it until Christ ascended. So it still can't be Replacement it has to be Fulfillment.

Yes. I think the "shadow" of the church is replaced and the reality of the church is fulfilled.
 
The Scriptures plainly teach the promises of a chosen people are to Abraham and his seed (Genesis 12). That promise runs through the line of Isaac, Israel, and others directly through the house of David, where the LORD says

"I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I wilI stablish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he shall be my son." (II Samuel 7:12-14).

Saint Matthew tells us Jesus Christ is this "son of David, the son of Abraham" (Matthew 1:1) who will build an "house" for the LORD. Jesus told us "destroy this [house] and in three days, I will raise it up" (John 2:19). Since Solomon, as the physical son of David sought to build the LORD an "house" -- using witchcraft and pagan deities as his guide (I Kings 11:7), he was seeking to do in the flesh what Christ accomplished in the Spirit. The Rapture camp is the group that would rebuild Solomon's physical temple in Jerusalem -- an act that, when accompanied by the resumption of animal sacrifice is "the abomination of desolation."

The Apostle Paul says Jesus is the "seed" of Abraham, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh" (Romans 1:3). When Christ encountered the Pharisees and they said they didn't need Him because "we have Abraham to our father" (Luke 3:8 ), they were telling him they were the seed of Abraham, and therefore the recipients of the promise of a chosen people.

Jesus told them flatly "ye are of your father the devil" (John 8:44) because their works demonstrated whose "seed" they were. Paul says the "seed" of Abraham is Christ -- "He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ" (Galatians 3:16). This means, if you're not in Christ, you cannot possibly be "the seed of Abraham."

Thus, the Christians are the children of the promise (Romans 9:8 ), and those that teach the Jews are the chosen people are preaching the exact opposite: the gospel of the Antichrist.
 
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The Rapture camp is the group that would rebuild Solomon's physical temple in Jerusalem -- an act that, when accompanied by the resumption of animal sacrifice is "the abomination of desolation."

Thus, the Christians are the children of the promise (Romans 9:8 ), and those that teach the Jews are the chosen people are preaching the exact opposite: the gospel of the Antichrist.
I have a few questions do you believe that these two topics will still occur in the future? "the abomination of deslolation" and "Antichrist" Or is the abomination and Antichrist, something that happened in the past? Or is the abomination and antichrist something to use against false teachers and teachings?
 
I have a few questions do you believe that these two topics will still occur in the future? "the abomination of desolation" and "Antichrist" Or is the abomination and Antichrist, something that happened in the past?

Both. That is, the word of God is multi-layered, it has multiple layers of fulfillment. Some would dub such biblical concepts as "prophetic parallels," "twin timelines," and "role reversals."

Failure to understand this concept is why evangelical Christianity is presently in a serious hurt locker.

The root problem is that folks do not know what a Jew is. They do not know what Israel is. Thus, many have ceded their birthright to the national Jews.

'Israel' is not an all-covering title; there are two 'Israel’s' -- a physical Israel, and a spiritual Israel; the former is unsaved, the latter is saved. Likewise, there are two Jews: the ethnic/national Jew, and the spiritual Jew; the former is unsaved, the latter is saved.

By the time we get to chapter 11 of Romans, it has already been established there are two Israels - "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Rom 9:6). In a similar vein, it has already been established there are two groups of Jews - "He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly...But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly...in the spirit" (Rom 2:28-29).

Of course Jersusalem is important - we all sense that, but NOT in the way the majority think it is. Jerusalem is the power of Antichrist; she is spiritually called "Sodom and Egypt" (Rev 11: 8 ) because of her gross apostacy. Antichrist will set up his reign (for a season) in Jerusalem...

"Jew" is defined today as someone whose religion is Judaism. But Scripture defines a Jew as anyone who follows Christ Jesus; Romans 2:28-29, "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

As a born-again believer, I am an "inward spiritual Jew."

Jesus prophesied to the (national) Jews, "the kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" (Mat. 21:43). If the believers in Christ have become, as Peter said, "a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation." (1 Pet. 2:9), then the CHRISTIANS (and not some ethnic subset) are now at the forefront of the Lord's great plan of salvation.

Speaking of the (national) Jews, the book of Romans says "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies FOR YOUR SAKES..." (Romans 11:28).

So we have two distinct groups who lay claim to the title "Jew." One group is the (Old Covenant) national/ethnic/racial Jews who deny Jesus as their Lord and Savior. The other group is the (New Covenant) inward spiritual Jews i.e. born-again Christians (who have been grafted in -- Romans 11). And BOTH groups are largely deceived in that many cling to the dispensationalist lie that the Jews are the chosen people, and as such they are still the center of God's redemptive plan. The truth is, "there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek" (Rom. 10:12) in Christ Jesus - and prophetic fulfillment is never going to go back to a pre-eminence of one group based on racial background.

And many lie and say they are Jews when, in truth, they are not: "Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie..." (Rev. 3:9).

The writer of Hebrews sums it up: "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. ... For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven." (Heb. 8:6,7, 12:25).

Regarding the "two Israels," you'll find a big hint in Romans 9. In that chapter, Paul describes his "great heaviness and continual sorrow" for the lost among his "kinsmen" the "Israelites." But Paul is not totally hopeless, as he acknowledges that at least some of them, whom he refers to as "Israel," have indeed become born-again: "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (vs. 6).

So we have two Israels: physical (unsaved) Israel e.g. the 'Israelites,' and spiritual Israel (the born-again remnant).

The only true Israel of God is that small body of believers that have truly left behind their racial and national aspirations, and have been born again in the Spirit of God - born again into what the Bible identifies as the Remnant of Israel. The Bible says "...the remant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the holy one of Israel, in truth" (Isaiah 10:20). Because Jesus Christ IS the truth, this speaks of the Christians standing in the truth of Jesus. (BTW, those that are abiding in and sustaining the incorporated religious assemblies of the world are not standing in the truth because those corporations are in submission to their creator - the beast.)

As a born-again believer, I am an "inward spiritual Jew," and I am "spiritual Israel."
 
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I agree with everything you said, except I believe that most of Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD. The "abomination of desolation" is past and "Antichrist" or the "Beast" is past, but "antichrists" and "abominations" are ever present.
 
Thanks for the response, Bambi.

Yes, but, we must keep in mind that multi-layered nature of prophecy...

For example, "abomination of desolation."

There are two opposing perspectives of this abomination of desolation. When the deceived church sees the resumption of the Jewish sacrifice, they will believe they are about to be raptured. They won't believe the event they've just witnessed is the abomination, for they've been taught that won't occur until 3.5 years later with the cessation of the sacrifice.

The true believer will instead recognize the event as the abomination itself. They won't be expecting to be raptured because they know that Christ said when "ye shall see the abomination of desolation" it will then be time for them to flee into the mountains -- or quickly activate any contingency plans they've made to be preserved during the immediately ensuing destruction. The individual who inaugurates the resumption of the sacrifice is the Antichrist.

The book of Daniel even tells us that the abomination is NOT the cessation of the sacrifice. At the very end of the book, the angel tells Daniel that "...from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days." (Dan. 12:11).

This verse clearly tells us that the 'setting up' of the abomination and the cessation of the sacrifice are separated by a period of 1,290 days. If you look at it closely, you'll see the verse strongly infers that the resumption of the sacrifice IS the abomination of desolation. It's because the passage approaches the chronological events in reverse that it's somewhat veiled. Again, it reads "from [or between] the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away... and the [setting up of the] abomination," there will be a period of just over 3.5 years.

The final aspect of the Beast's revealing will only occur at Christ's second coming.

The truth is, the abomination of desolation is the resumption of animal sacrifices for the sins of mankind when the precious blood of God's only begotten son has already been shed for our desperate sinful condition.

Christians are actually being taught that when they help to promote the rebuilding of the Jewish temple, it's a way of hastening the rapture! Dispensationally-oriented Christian prophecy teachers crisscross the country on speaking engagements (I've heard a few) urging believers to unilaterally support Israel on this matter. They speak frequently of the "Temple Mount Faithful," a group focused on rebuilding the temple.

Messianic Jewish Christians lavishly promote tours to Israel and the Temple Mount for this very purpose. Certain prophecy teachers (e.g. Monte Judah of Lamb and Lion Ministries) have even warned Christians that when the sacrifice is resumed, they must not speak against it, or they will be violating the will of God!

This resumption of the ancient sacrificial system IS THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION that will be blessed by the Antichrist and his False Prophet from their seat of power in Jerusalem, at which time huge numbers of Christians will be of one mind with the Antichrist. Meanwhile, the true remnant believers, already ostracized by the harlot churches they've come out of, will look on at the ghastly spectacle of the church spiritually embracing the global event even as the Antichrist then takes his place and "sits" in the now likeminded spiritual "temple of God."

Under the guise of religious tolerance and pluralism of this age, Christians are already embracing the idea of the Jews reverting to the Old Covenant practice of animal sacrifice. Through a distorted interpretation of the promises of blessing made to Abraham, Christians have been taught that the Jews are still the chosen people.

Genesis 12:3 reads: "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed." This verse has been distorted and misinterpreted more than any other single verse in the bible! Christians simply don't realize that this promise of blessing applies to them, not to the unbelieving Jews. By dividing God's promises into "dispensations," vast numbers of well-meaning believers have bought the lie that the promises of God have been inherited by the Jews in spite of the fact that the Old Covenant people rejected and crucified their Saviour.

The New Testament says "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith." (Gal. 3:14).

Blanket acceptance of all things Jewish is a terrible error. Ask yourself how many times you've heard about the "Judeo-Christian" culture or society that we live in? The Bible is very clear on the subject. Speaking of the Jews, the book of Romans says "As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies FOR YOUR SAKES..." The only society that I'm really interested in living in is a Christian one!

Liberal and so-called conservative Christianity is into "bridge-building" as a way to reconcile Christians with Jews. They've published religiously-correct Bibles that twist the verses. They sponsor religiously-correct institutions of learning that fail to warn all that Jesus is the ONLY way to salvation. There are even pastors that are now teaching Jews can be saved by following the Old Covenant!

This IS the great falling away, as the antichrist encroaches into the true temple of God. It's not the way of the Apostles, nor the remnant church of Jesus Christ.

To diplomatically label the truth as being unpalatable, the religious institutions and scholars have placed believers in the position of keeping quiet about the one thing they must never keep quiet about. Jesus Christ died for the sins of the Jews, as well as everyone else.

The writer of Hebrews sums it up: "But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first [covenant] had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. ... For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven." (Heb. 8:6,7, 12:25).

Further regarding the rapturists' fraudulent claim of an anthropomorphic image standing in a rebuilt temple, I submit this additional info:

Although there is an individual man that is to fulfill the prophecies of the Antichrist, the Scriptures indicate the "beast" government will precede his inauguration. The second beast of Revelation (the religious "beast") is similar, for although there is an individual False Prophet, he is also to be preceded by the "beast" church.

Even as the government of the beast seeks to "show" him to be god by controlling the water, the air, the seas, and the earth (domains which clearly belong to GOD), the False Prophet uses his religious authority to "cause the earth and them which dwell therein to worship [read obey] the first beast before him." (Revelation 13:12). Thus, whenever church leaders misquote Romans 13 and tell us we are supposed to obey the evil governments of our time, they are manifesting themselves as emissaries of the False Prophet.

That crucial text in II Thessalonians 2 applies here, for as the beast government ascends to power, the text tells us that "man of sin... [will] sit in the temple [Strong's #3485, naos] of God, showing himself that he is God." (II Thessalonians 2:4). The false prophets in the "Christian" church refuse to teach the people the "temple" mentioned is the same Greek word Paul used when he said our bodies are the "temple [naos] of God." (I Corinthians 3:16). It's also the same word Jesus used when He motioned to Himself and said "destroy this temple [naos], and in three days I will raise it up" (John 2:19).

Indeed, when the devil tempted Christ, and "set him on a pinnacle of the temple [Strong's #2411, hieron]" (Luke 4:9), it is a different word that is used for "temple" -- and that word always means a building; whereas the "temple" the beast will "sit" in, is the spiritual temple of the church. Thus, the installation of the Spirit of Antichrist in the church has already occurred -- but God has promised He will preserve a remnant that has ears to hear the truth. To put it another way, you should look very closely at this, for it is much later than you think.

-- Brother James
 
For example, "abomination of desolation."

There are two opposing perspectives of this abomination of desolation. When the deceived church sees the resumption of the Jewish sacrifice, they will believe they are about to be raptured. They won't believe the event they've just witnessed is the abomination, for they've been taught that won't occur until 3.5 years later with the cessation of the sacrifice.

The true believer will instead recognize the event as the abomination itself. They won't be expecting to be raptured because they know that Christ said when "ye shall see the abomination of desolation" it will then be time for them to flee into the mountains -- or quickly activate any contingency plans they've made to be preserved during the immediately ensuing destruction. The individual who inaugurates the resumption of the sacrifice is the Antichrist.

The book of Daniel even tells us that the abomination is NOT the cessation of the sacrifice. At the very end of the book, the angel tells Daniel that "...from the time [that] the daily [sacrifice] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, [there shall be] a thousand two hundred and ninety days." (Dan. 12:11).

This verse clearly tells us that the 'setting up' of the abomination and the cessation of the sacrifice are separated by a period of 1,290 days. If you look at it closely, you'll see the verse strongly infers that the resumption of the sacrifice IS the abomination of desolation. It's because the passage approaches the chronological events in reverse that it's somewhat veiled. Again, it reads "from [or between] the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away... and the [setting up of the] abomination," there will be a period of just over 3.5 years.

The final aspect of the Beast's revealing will only occur at Christ's second coming.

The truth is, the abomination of desolation is the resumption of animal sacrifices for the sins of mankind when the precious blood of God's only begotten son has already been shed for our desperate sinful condition.

This resumption of the ancient sacrificial system IS THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION that will be blessed by the Antichrist and his False Prophet from their seat of power in Jerusalem, at which time huge numbers of Christians will be of one mind with the Antichrist. Meanwhile, the true remnant believers, already ostracized by the harlot churches they've come out of, will look on at the ghastly spectacle of the church spiritually embracing the global event even as the Antichrist then takes his place and "sits" in the now likeminded spiritual "temple of God."

Under the guise of religious tolerance and pluralism of this age, Christians are already embracing the idea of the Jews reverting to the Old Covenant practice of animal sacrifice. Through a distorted interpretation of the promises of blessing made to Abraham, Christians have been taught that the Jews are still the chosen people.

Hello Lawrenceb.

You stated the following;

There are two opposing perspectives of this abomination of desolation. When the deceived church sees the resumption of the Jewish sacrifice

The resumption of the sacrificial system in Jerusalem in the modern era???

There are numerous problems with this idea Lawrenceb, I do not see the rebuilding of a temple in Jerusalem as even remotely possible.

The traditional location of the temple is presently occupied by the Al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock. Islamic temples occupy the
temple mount and they regard this site as the third most holy site in Islam. The Islamic world would not be impressed and would strongly
oppose the rebuilding of the temple on the temple mount.

Since the rebirth of the nation of Israel many Islamic countries are devoted to ridding the earth of Israel. These Islamic enemies of Israel are
slowly growing in strength and have one objective, the destruction of Israel. The government of Israel is constantly in negotiation with neighboring
Islamic countries and the United Nations. The continuing existence of Israel is heavily dependent on the USA and this support may wane in the
coming decades as the power of the USA on the international stage wanes. Islam has an enemy and that enemy is Israel, make no mistake Israels
days are numbered.

Further Israel is a secular nation with a secular government, so it is very unlikely the government would be involved in a religious construction project.
Their government is the same as the government in the USA or Australia or Britain. They are not interested in anything of a religious nature and I cannot
see this situation changing at all.

It would also be necessary for the Levitical priesthood to be reestablished, this is a major problem. Since the records of the Levitical lineage were destroyed
in AD 70, no records exist that would enable the Jews to assign the Levitical priesthood.

Also Lawrenceb, Judaism is in the minority in Israel and I doubt whether the vast majority of Jews would even consider the idea of a temple. Why would
the average Israelite desire to have their world torn apart by religious fanatics attempting to offer sacrifices. They have more than enough trouble now
let alone attempting to rebuild the temple on the temple mount.

Just consider the opposition by animal welfare groups to the sacrifice of animals for a religious purpose, they would not be popular.

I strongly suspect that the idea of a rebuilt temple as seriously erroneous. You may need to return to the drawing board of Biblical prophecy as this one is
definitely not an option.
 
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Lawrenceb,

I would agree with you that building a temple and sacrificing animals would be an abomination. I just believe it isn't "The Abomination of Desolation". I believe that was fulfilled 3 1/2 years before 70 AD.
 
I do not see the rebuilding of a temple in Jerusalem as even remotely possible.

By refusing to recognize the sonship of the Christians as the inheritors of the promise as WE have been grafted in to the tree of Israel (not replacing Israel, but being appended to that construct), the dispensationalists are setting up the believers in Jesus for the final deception of the Antichrist. When he is installed in Jerusalem, he will be a professing Christian, and as the Jews accept his leadership, it will seem that "Israel" has now been converted to Christianity. At that point, the "Church" will transition from futurism to Post-Millennialism - i.e. it is now time to build God's kingdom on the earth - but that kingdom will be the kingdom of the Antichrist.

These Islamic enemies of Israel are slowly growing in strength and have one objective, the destruction of Israel. The government of Israel is...

...the government of USA.

[Israel's] government is the same as the government in the USA or Australia or Britain. They are not interested in anything of a religious nature..

It is ALL ABOUT "religion"/Antichrist.

I doubt whether the vast majority of Jews would even consider the idea of a temple. Why would
the average Israelite...

It's not about "the average Israelite." It's about the Antichrist's kingdom.

And [the two witnesses'] dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified. Re. 11:18

Just consider the opposition by animal welfare groups to the sacrifice of animals for a religious purpose...

Such groups already worship nature.

I just believe it isn't "The Abomination of Desolation". I believe that was fulfilled 3 1/2 years before 70 AD.

Recalling the "prophetic parallels" nature of prophecy fulfillment I don't see "The Abomination of Desolation" mentioned anywhere in scripture.

"Antichrist" is a term found in New Testament with layered meanings, including collective ("there are many antichrists" -I John 2:18) as well as individual ("And the beast was taken, and...cast alive into a lake of fire.." - Revelation 19:20).
 
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By refusing to recognize the sonship of the Christians as the inheritors of the promise as WE have been grafted in to the tree of Israel (not replacing Israel, but being appended to that construct), .

We Gentiles are not grafted into the 'tree of Israel' that is a theological construction that is not
resident in the scripture. Here read the following text carefully Lawrenceb;

Romans 11
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them
and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches;
but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were
broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did
not spare the natural branches...

The Gentile 'branch' is grafted into the 'rich root of the olive tree', the Gentile branch stands among the
other branches. The branch that was Israel was 'broken off' and the wild Gentile olive branch was grafted
into the rich root which is Christ. These verses do not say we Gentiles are grafted into the 'tree of Israel' as
you said Lawrenceb. The text does not state what you stated. Paul is talking about two seperate branches,
one is a cultivated branch or a natural branch (a chosen branch) which is Israel. The other branch is a
'wild olive' branch and this grafted branch is the Gentile branch (unbeloved, unchosen).

Nowhere does (Romans 11) specify that the olive tree itself is Israel, Paul is talking about branches not trees.

Your theology like most theologies never really display a solid understanding of the letter to the Romans.
Theologies continually misunderstand the text within the letter to the Romans.

Look Lawrenceb, have a read of (Romans 11:17-21) and get back to me and tell me what these
verses are really saying. I will not attend to the rest of your post until we have treated the verses quoted
above properly, Lawrenceb.
 
The passage you cite is from a copyrighted work legally owned by men, further, they have manipulated several key areas.

Regardless, the bottom line is, your argument is a red herring because grafted branches of whatever flavor are, by definition, always a part of a tree. The problem is that you do not know what "Israel" is.

Look Lawrenceb, have a read of (Romans 11:17-21) and get back to me and tell me what these verses are really saying.

Many sincere Bible students have been deceived by the tactics of the Rapture Cult on many different fronts. One of the most notorious efforts is found in Romans 11 where a casual reading of a single verse, taken out of context, can be twisted to make it appear that at some future point God will miraculously convert all Jewish people to Christianity. This teaching is an abomination as that particular lie is deeply rooted in the Antichrist system we identify as the Rapture Cult. The following work is a thorough look at the verse in question (Romans 11:26), and the entirety of Romans chapter 11.

For openers, the primary difficulty in this understanding the truth of this verse is the Apostle Paul's seemingly abrupt shift in focal points in and around verse 26 - "And so all Israel shall be saved." A close analysis will indicate that what he actually does is make a concluding point to his prior statements in the chapter. It was because of this contextual fluidity that I kept moving further and further back in the chapter in order to reconstruct the flow of his thoughts - thus, a lengthy piece on the subject seemed in order.

Several things can help in understanding this passage. First, recognize you're reading a letter that has ALREADY addressed who Israel is several pages (chapters) previously. Paul has ALREADY elaborated extensively on, and identified the "seed" of Abraham as being fulfilled in the promised Messiah (1:3, 9:8 ).

Paul has ALREADY elaborated on the fact that "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children" (9:7). Paul has already stated that the "promise" to the SEED of Abraham [which is Christ], "that he should be heir of the world," was not through the law [a phenomena that was peculiar to Israel] but by faith.

Paul has ALREADY clearly stated that "they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (9:8 ).

One may suppose, since Paul has repeatedly instructed the churches in each city to read the epistles written to the other churches (Col 4:16, I Thess 5:27) that the Romans had read the Galatian epistle written several years previously. Thus, Paul has ALREADY stated that "if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal 3:29)

Thus, by the time we get to chapter 11 of Romans, it has already been established there are two Israels - "For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Rom 9:6). In a similar vein, it has already been established there are two groups of Jews - "He is not a Jew, which is one outwardly...But he is a Jew which is one inwardly...in the spirit" (Rom 2:28-29).

All these statements have preceded the statement that "all Israel shall be saved". Had Paul said "and so, all Jews shall be saved," there would probably be no question he was speaking of the "inward" Jews, but because he used the collective term "Israel" immediately after having referred to what could be distinguished as 'natural' Israel, there is some difficulty in recognizing WHICH Israel he is referring to in which "ALL" are saved.

A good question would be, is it consistent to think that Paul has spent chapter upon chapter repeatedly articulating how Israel "stumbled" because they did not embrace the Messiah by FAITH as the seed of Abraham, then abruptly say 'Oh well, they're all going to be saved anyway?' Or another variation would be, 'it won't matter in the long run, because no matter what they do, all Israel shall be saved.'

This 'predestined irresistible grace' is the proposition being put forth by the Dispensationalists. It runs counter to the overwhelming body of Scripture, and the central theme of the New Testament.

The claim that God must save all of physical Israel is usually based on a perceived irrevocable promise to that particular family - but a carrying over into the modern era of a perceived promise to "remember" Israel ignores the fact that the promise to "remember" Israel was already fulfilled in the Messiah's arrival. Furthermore, the "remnant" that is prophesied to be saved among the "lost sheep of the house of Israel" are specified to exist in the early Christian church.

Because Paul has already repeatedly stated there is such a thing as a "remnant" of Israel (11:4,5) and there are two "Israels" with an unbelieving Israel that is not "the Israel of God" (Gal 3:29) - it is consistent for him to be referring to the 'saved' Israel when he writes "all Israel shall be saved."

Conversely, it is not consistent with the preponderance of New Testament doctrine to think he is saying all the Jews will be saved, when there is no such promise, prophecy, or explicit statement anywhere in Scripture. The lack of Scripture promising that "all" of physical Israel will be saved doesn't even account for the last two thousand years of history - to say nothing of the fact that every indication we have is that the modern Israeli nation is up to their eyeballs in the present apostasy.

Now, let's follow the flow of Romans 11 on a verse by verse basis:

1.
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

He says, of course God has not cast away his people, i.e. 'I'm evidence of that fact because I'm saved, and I "also am an Israelite."

2.
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what
the scripture saith of Elias? How he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

He again notes how what has happened is not to be perceived as a "casting away" of Israel, and compares the present circumstance to Elijah's prior prayer "against Israel."

3.
Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and
I am left alone, and they seek my life.

He quotes I King 19:10 which is the textual support for the prior statement that Elijah, who was then recognized as the key prophet of Israel, had spoken against Israel. In that passage, Elijah said to the LORD "the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left, and they seek my life, to take it away."

4.
But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself
seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

Paul notes that God corrected Elijah and informed him that he was not the only servant of God left in Israel, but that God said "I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal" - a recitation of I Kings 19:18.

5.
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to
the election of grace.

Paul compares this episode to "this present time [when] also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." Because there are not multiple prophecies dealing with multiple eras in which God will constantly save a "remnant," we have no Scripture indicating there will be yet another significant remnant of the Jews brought into salvation in the end times.

6.
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no
more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

He elaborates on how the grace that saved the remnant was not rooted in works, but is the free gift of God.

7.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the
election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

A key verse, Paul uses the term "Israel" here referencing the lost "part" of Israel (see verse 25). He rather diplomatically says "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for”, rather than a more pointed conclusion that the Israel He is speaking of has rejected the only salvation that is available to them. In the 2nd portion of the verse, we have a clear statement that the "elect" is composed of the Christians. Indeed, verse 7 is the smoking gun for those that erroneously claim the Jews are the elect in Matthew 24's post-tribulational return. Note also how "the rest" - anyone but the elect - "were blinded."

8.
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of
slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

The Apostle quotes a prophecy of Isaiah that natural Israel's rebellious nature has resulted in blindness. God has closed their eyes "forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honor me, but have removed their heart far from me." (Isaiah 29:13 - 3 verses after Paul's citation)

9. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:

He now cites from David with an imprecatory prayer against natural Israel - not dissimilar to Elijah's earlier pronouncement. Since all Israel is not Israel and there is a remnant of Israel, one would have to recognize that David's prophetic curse against "Israel" is not against the remnant of Israel - but against the "part" of Israel that abides in unbelief.

10.
Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their
back always.

A continuation of David's curse on Israel - a quote from Psalm 69:23. With these citations from Elijah, Isaiah, and David, Paul has shown that Israel has been turning away from the LORD for a very long time.

11.
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but
rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

Here Paul says "Have they stumbled that they should fall?" and answers himself "God forbid." Yet Israel has clearly fallen at the time of the Roman writing. Paul then continues his thought that the 'silver lining' in this tragedy is the fact that the door was opened to the Gentiles "to provoke them to jealousy." This is a reference to Deuteronomy where God is furious at Israel because "they have provoked me. I will move them to jealousy with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger." (Deut 21:21).

It's important to see there is nothing in this passage (or any other for that matter) claiming the tactic will result in backsliding Israel responding favorably. In fact, the LORD goes on to say "a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lower hell. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat and with bitter destructions. The sword without, and terror within" (Deut 21:22, 24,25). If "all Israel" is prophetically scheduled to repent and be saved, the prediction of that theoretical event is certainly not in the text in conjunction with the LORD's effort to arouse them to jealousy.

12.
Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the
diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?

Paul begins to justify why it would be desirable for natural Israel to be accepted again if they change course. He poetically states how the world became richer through their fall, and since the "diminishing" of natural Israel's standing benefited the Gentiles, how much more beneficial it would be IF they were to achieve a "fullness" in Christ. Note also how, in the first part of the verse, he acknowledges Israel has fallen ("their fall") whereas he seemingly denied their stumbling meant they had fallen earlier.

This demonstrates that back in verse 11, his use of the word "fall" connoted being abandoned or cast away. It could be paraphrased as 'Did they stumble so they could be cast away? God forbid.' God did not cast them away, God reached down to offer them salvation and they rejected it.

13.
For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the
Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

Here he specifies that the reasoning he is utilizing is directed to the Gentiles, and seeks to "magnify" his Apostolic standing in the hope that they will receive his perspective. This is very revealing for it means he is addressing the very subject of natural or "stumbled" Israel because years earlier, Paul has already told these same "Gentiles" in Christ that there is "neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile) in Christ Jesus."

Thus, he is now addressing those Christians in the Roman church that were Gentiles. This further demonstrates he was qualifying his statements as not applying to Christians that were formerly Jews - yet another indicator he expected Christians that were formerly Jews might also be reading this letter.

14.
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh,
and might save some of them.

A hugely important verse. He again alludes to the Deuteronomic statement where God seeks to "provoke" Israel to jealousy. Paul uses "provoke," but substitutes "emulation" (instead of jealousy) - a similar, but not identical concept. In this verse, he is reminding the former Gentiles that are now Christians that natural Israel may yet respond to the Gospel.

Notice the crucial terms used when Paul addresses the results of this provocation to jealousy. He says "If by any means," the tactic would work, it's worth a try - hardly a foreordained conclusion that it will work. When he said if the tactic of jealousy is used, he "may" be able to provoke the Jews to emulate the Christians - again not a set outcome - in effect, it may work, and it may not. He then goes on to say the tactic of jealousy "might" save "some" of them.

We can ask ourselves, if Paul has a special prophetic knowledge that ALL natural "Israel" will be saved, why is he so tentative here?

15.
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what
shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

A poetic vehicle similar to verse 12. "If the casting away of them" means something good comes of it, wouldn't their restoration mean something even better? Note also how he again concedes that, at least in the short term, the term "casting away" is applicable to Israel - even though he has denied they've been cast away back in verse one! Paul is definitely in an internal conflict over this issue.

Remember, he has already anguished over the loss of his people's fate two chapters earlier when he had "great heaviness and continual sorrow.:" There he said he would almost be willing to be "accursed from Christ" in exchange for his "kinsmen according to the flesh" (9:2,3). Note also that by saying he would just about trade places, his offer to be "accursed" is to take their place - a clear indicator he knows deep down inside that Israel is accursed - and that is why he is so sad.

16.
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root
be holy, so are the branches.

Continuing the earlier thought that restoration would be wonderful because their fall coincided with the redemption of those that were not a people, he is reasoning that each part of the tree of saved Israel - regardless of when it arrives, or which position it holds, is still part of the tree -- and that tree is holy.

This verse cannot be applied to Israel as a whole as that would include the Pharisees, the Sadducees, the scribes, and others that not only refused to enter in themselves, they aggressively sought to keep others out of the salvation wrought in Christ (Matt 23:13).

He utilizes the vehicle of analogy in this statement by mentioning the "first fruit" of the tree, as well as the "lump" (he likely is referring to the trunk here), followed by the "root" and the "branches." This entire package, the first fruit, the lump, the root, and the branches references saved Israel in what is about to be articulated as a "good olive tree."

Since Christ is "risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits" the entire entity under discussion is clearly in Him. With this analogy, it's almost as though Paul is seeking to pre-empt an anticipated resentment among the Gentiles if the Jews were to resume their original position.

17.
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild
olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

The well-known passage about how "some" of the branches have been broken off the olive tree. A clear reference to Israel, it is self evident the branches broken off were those that refused the salvation of Jesus Christ. He furthers the simile with a reference to the Gentiles that came from the "wild olive tree" that have been "grafted" in to the good olive tree.

This wonderful verse plainly illustrates much. First of all, there is only one saved "tree" - not two. Obviously, branches that break off will die, or are already dead. The "wild" tree has no role in the kingdom of God, so there is only one entity that embodies salvation - the "tree" of Israel.

18.
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.


Paul cautions against Gentile boasting, or propagating a superior attitude against the natural branches that were broken off.

19.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.


He narrows the description of the apparent Gentile boast that God broke off the natural branches so they could be grafted in - inferring the false idea that God somehow needed the Gentiles. This 'puffed up' attitude is the epitome of sin.

20.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


With the word "Well," Paul notes that it is true that the removal of “some" (verse 17) of the natural branches made possible the grafting in of the Gentiles. He specifies those that were "broken off" were removed because of "unbelief," and those that were grafted in, were attached because of "faith." He cautions against being "highminded" or arrogant, but that they should have fear or awe because of the enormous implications of this epic event.

21.
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.


Paul continues the prior thought that the Gentile believer should be cautious against pride as "God spared not the natural branches" -- thus if the Gentiles fall in a similar fashion, they could find themselves in the same position as the natural branches that were broken off.

22.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.


A verse the 'once saved, always saved' crowd would rather not think about. Paul notes we should be acutely aware of ("behold") the "severity" of the situation - an event that brought about a tragic judgment on those that "fell" (there's that word again), and the spiritually opposite yield of "goodness." He then notes that the result to "thee" was the "goodness" - something that will only exist "if thou continue in his goodness."

It is more than inferred that "if" the good branches don't continue in "his goodness" they will be "cut off" - it is explicitly stated. Also note that there is still only one construct that is saved - the "good olive tree" -- in the analogy that Paul began numerous verses back.

23.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.


We see that it's 'a 2 way street.' Not only can the "wild" branches still find themselves broken off if they fail to "continue in his goodness," the natural branches that were broken off are able to be grafted back in again "if" they change course and "abide not" in "unbelief."

24.
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?


Another bit of rationale similar to verse 15 still utilizing the picture of a good olive tree. His 'reverse grafting' statement from the previous verse is elaborated on by saying that in such a situation, those natural branches would fit the tree very well, because it's the same tree they were broken off from. With statements like these, it's difficult to see how anyone can conclude that the believers are not a part of Israel.

Since he reaffirms the identity of the branches that were "broken off" as still being from the original "olive tree," and points out that "God is able to graft them in again" (verse 23), it is self evident that the "tree" in question is Israel. He even notes that the "tree" in the analogy is "their own olive tree."

25.
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.


Paul refers to this breaking off and grafting in event as a "mystery" the believers should not be ignorant of. By adding the comment "brethren," he may have now broadened his address from the earlier narrative that was more narrowly focused on the believers that were among the Gentiles (verse 13). They should not have ignorance of this matter to avoid becoming "wise in [their] own conceits" - yet another caution against the sin of pride creeping into their hearts.

The balance of the verse articulates the well known phrase "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." By breaking down the thought, this complex statement can be clarified considerably. If we place the "wise in your own conceits" phrase as a parenthesis, and read it as one thought, it becomes clearer. For example 'I would not, brethren that ye should be ignorant of the fact that blindness, in part, has happened to Israel '

This address to the "brethren" continues the idea that Israel has not been "cast away" developed from the very beginning of the chapter. Israel has undergone a metamorphosis in which a "part" of natural Israel has experienced a deadly "blindness" even as "Gentiles" have "come in" to join those that remain.

The last phrase indicates that this "blindness" will continue "until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in." This would seem to indicate that at the time of this "fullness," the blindness experienced by those that have been abiding "in unbelief" (verses 20, 23) will cease. Dispensationalism posits that this means the cycle then shifts back to the Jews in terms of God's primary dealing --- a position this text doesn't even hint at.

This Rapture Cult view further tries to make the removal of the “blindness" an event that has no scriptural support at all - i.e. the pre-tribulation rapture. There is absolutely nothing in this text indicating that there is still a demonstrable period of time left for fallen Israel to change course once the "blindness" has been removed.

Clearly, some event is in view that will bring about the end of Israel's blindness, but the flow of the passage speaks of a finishing - not another transition. The "fullness" of the Gentiles would infer that the entity spoken of throughout the chapter - true Israel - is now full as the last component said to be scheduled to "come in" (the Gentiles) has now reached its "fullness."

Furthermore, 3 times in this very book, Paul has written that the collision of good and evil is manifested "to the Jews first, and also to the Gentile" (Romans 1:16, 2:9,10) He never proposes that God's plan is 'to the Jews first, then the Gentiles, then back to the Jews for one last chance.' The pattern of salvation is plainly said to conclude with the calling of the Gentiles.

26.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


This phrase concludes the thought that Paul has been developing from the very first verse of this chapter - Israel has not been "cast away," Israel has been born-again and magnified through the appending of the Gentiles to the one saved entity that God has created. Thus, it is consistent for Paul to conclude "And so." as he pronounces that "all Israel shall be saved."

Because he has repeatedly established that there are two Israels, it is entirely logical for Paul to utilize the phrase "all Israel" to emphasize that this is the finished result of the LORD's "strange work" (Isaiah 28:21). He has repeatedly prophesied that "this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear" (Isaiah 28:12). He has repeatedly stated He will "lay in Zion for a foundation stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation" (Isaiah 28:16) but they would not believe.

Thus the idea that God will miraculously cause "all Israel" (awkwardly forcing the phrase to refer to physical Israel) to suddenly believe in Jesus Christ after the 'last Gentile' converts, is completely without merit. There is no explicit statement to that effect anywhere in the Bible. It runs counter to everything said in the entire chapter, and it is contrary to the total body of statements in the entire book of Romans.

Indeed, the few Rapture Cultists that have an ounce of honesty left will confess that when they first read the statement "all Israel shall be saved," they were taken aback by the odd statement. It's abrupt insertion represents a sudden shift in the flow of the chapter as it seemingly jumps to a conclusion that is not consistent with the prior verses. The truth is, the verse is right where It's supposed to be - it is the false perspective of Dispensationalism that causes the narrative to seem disjointed.

Without the assumption that the Christians, utilizing the shell of the "church," are a separate group from Israel, the entire system of dispensationalism collapses under the weight of its own preposterous suppositions. The total body of New Testament teaching, particularly Paul's writings in this very book and this very chapter, categorically testify that the Old Testament order of salvation based upon one's physical lineage is now forever done away with in Christ.

It is through "faith" that salvation is based (verse 20), not a reliance upon physical heritage - e.g. "They who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God" (Romans 9:8 ).

The true understanding of the conclusion that Paul has reached may also be seen by reversing the components of the statement. Speaking of the "good olive tree," Paul has stated that this new, engrafted version of Israel will reach its apex - its "all" or its "fullness - at the point when the last of the Gentiles that are scheduled to be saved has "come in." In the concluding statement of the verse, he again asserts that this "fullness" is a fulfillment of the prophecies that God will remember Israel.

Paul quotes Isaiah 59:20 which reads "And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord." Once again, the idea that salvation is for the "part" of natural Israel that turns "from transgression" to the "deliverer" is in view.

27.
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.


Paul reaffirms this is a fulfillment of the salvation promised to Israel, and quotes yet another portion of the prior citation in Isaiah 59 with verse 21 "this is my covenant with them." He then concludes that covenant is "when I take away their sins" (Romans 11:27). This is one of dozens of verses that show the promises to Israel are fulfilled in Jesus Christ as he redeems "Israel."

28.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.


Paul now shifts emphasis from the concept of "remnant" (11:5) Israel to "fallen" (11:22) Israel. He notes how the unbelieving Jews are enemies of the Gospel, "but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake." Because Paul has already stated 3 times that the term "election" corresponds to those that are saved in this very same book of Romans (9:11, 11:5, 11:7; see also I Thess 1:4 & II Peter 1:10), the phrase "as touching the election" would refer to the continuing fact that the option of embracing "the election of grace" (11:5) is still available to fallen Israel.

As Paul has already stated, the possibility of Jewish conversion still exists "if they abide not still in unbelief" (verse 23). Jews (the branches that were "broken off") have been sporadically coming to Christ for two thousand years, and finding themselves "grafted [back] into their own olive tree" (verse 24) There is no question this pleases God, as that was His original desire for "Israel" when He sent His son.

That son, Jesus Christ, said "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24) so it is clear "they are [still] beloved for the fathers' sake." Another way of looking at this latter phrase is to see that natural Israel is still beloved for the sake of the fathers of Israel - those that God had fellowship with in times past. In either event, the door to entry back into the grace of God is still open to "Israel," and so Paul is stressing that, even though they are enemies because they have rejected the Gospel, we must recognize they still have the option of coming back in to the fullness of the LORD's great plan.

29.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.


This remarkable verse has been grossly distorted by many that try to use it to say that GOD cannot change course once He provides his calling to a people. This is, of course, an absurd proposition as the LORD is Sovereign and He can do whatever He pleases. Some would try to use God's supposed inability to break a covenant to justify the false doctrine that physical Israel remains the LORD's chosen vessel regardless of their behaviour - thus making a mockery of Jesus Christ's own statements that "the kingdom of God shall be taken from you." (Matthew 21:43).

Such false doctrine makes the Word of God of "none effect by your tradition" (Matthew 15:6). A good verse for such liars is Numbers 14:34 where the LORD indeed changes course and says to Israel "forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise."

30.
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:


Paul uses yet another analogy to demonstrate how those that are now saved were at one time in unbelief, but were saved when salvation opened to them when Israel rejected their Messiah.

31.
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also
may obtain mercy.

He continues the analogy in a hopeful tone that even though these are now in unbelief, through the mercy of the believers they also may obtain mercy. Once again, not unlike verse 14, there is no definitive prophetic statement that this is what will happen - only that this may be the case.

32.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.


This somewhat difficult statement is a bit obscured by the usage of "concluded." The attempt to make the "all in unbelief" Israel as a way of setting up a justification for saving "all" natural Israel is faulty as a remnant of Israel embraced the Messiah as soon as they encountered Him. Indeed, the LORD reserved the remnant to salvation. This verse is simply telling us that God has allocated, or appointed circumstances where all men are in disbelief, in order that His merciful grace may be magnified.

33.
O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!


Paul's praise of God is abundant in this verse.

34.
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? Or who hath been his counseller?


His ways are higher than our ways, and we may not presume to know the wisdom that is implicit in His being.

35. Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

We could never give God enough to justify a reward of the magnificence that is found in His grace.

36.
For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.


In Him we live and breathe.

In summary, the 11th chapter of Romans is a favorite of the Rapture Cult. They regularly demonstrate their cultic tendencies insomuch as they love to take one verse out of context, attach a superficial rendering of that verse, then attempt to militate against 20 other verses that disagree with the first verse. This is the case with the "all Israel shall be saved" constituency.

Solid spiritual wisdom requires that any seemingly contradictory statements must be harmonized among the totality of the Scriptures - something the Cult teaches, but rarely executes.

The "strong delusion" that has overtaken the church in terms of the great deception of Dispensationalism has brought some to the point of saying that Christians that claim their birthright as the "chosen generation" and the "peculiar people" that Peter told us about (I Peter 2:9), have somehow become anti-Semitic! This lie is so monstrous that it manifests the profound nature of the verse in I John that bluntly informs us that "who is a liar but Antichrist?" (I John 2:22).

The Jewish leaders of the generation that saw Jesus walk among them also claimed an irrevocable birthright when they claimed they were of their father Abraham. Jesus set them straight as to who their real father was. So too, those of this "evil and adulterous generation" that have constructed "another gospel" (Galatians 1:6). The Rapture Cult shall find themselves "accursed" because "they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved" (II Thessalonians 2:10). Soon, the false prophets of pre-tribulationism "shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames" (Isaiah 13:8 ).

But ye brethren, are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief (I Thessalonians 5:4).

-- Brother James
 
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Recalling the "prophetic parallels" nature of prophecy fulfillment I don't see "The Abomination of Desolation" mentioned anywhere in scripture.

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Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

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I capitalize the words in order for you to understand that this is a one time event. Again I agree with you that a rebuilding of a temple would be an abomination but not the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy.
 
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We Gentiles are not grafted into the 'tree of Israel' that is a theological construction that is not
resident in the scripture. Here read the following text carefully Lawrenceb;

The branch that was Israel was 'broken off' and the wild Gentile olive branch was grafted
into the rich root which is Christ. These verses do not say we Gentiles are grafted into the 'tree of Israel' as
you said Lawrenceb. The text does not state what you stated. Paul is talking about two seperate branches,
one is a cultivated branch or a natural branch (a chosen branch) which is Israel. The other branch is a
'wild olive' branch and this grafted branch is the Gentile branch (unbeloved, unchosen).

Nowhere does (Romans 11) specify that the olive tree itself is Israel, Paul is talking about branches not trees.

What is or Who is the Olive tree? I think Lawrenceb is saying the tree is Christ and in scripture Christ is Israel. And in Romans Israel isn't just one group or entity it is used to identify more than one group or entity.

Hosea 11:1 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Matt 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

The branch that was taken out of Israel(tree) was Israel(branch). Israel(branch) was rejected because it rejected Israel(tree). Then the Gentile branch(Wild Olive) was grafted into Israel(tree), it accepted Israel(tree). Thus Gentiles(Wild Olive) becomes part of Israel(tree), making them Spiritual Israel.
 
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