Apostolic Succession

[Bendito]

Bother, I have my entire Christian life stayed away from the "organised" Church. After almost 40 years the Lord led me to a small local Church here in Apple Valley, where I believe the teaching is right on. The pastor is a woman, who took over my from her Mother that died a couple years ago. Her dad was the pastor for many years before that. I have no problem with women pastors, or teachers as I know what the Word of God says about that.
A person called to be a Apostle, or any ministry by God would certainly be "confirmed" by another person(s) so they would be confident of what they are doing is from the Lord. I tell every one who asks, if someone tells you they have a "word" from God for them, it should only be a confirmation of what they already know. If not do not ever believe it.

I like dat! Sounds like you have it right

 

[Dovegiven]

Matthias was Judas' replacement. There were actually more who were called apostles besides the 12, Paul and Barnabas.

Only Judas' position as apostle was succeeded by casting lots, Matthias replacing him, not mentioned again in scriptures. There's a strong link to explain why that succession was necessary, to fulfill Revelation 21:14 (KJV)
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The name of Judas Iscariot on one of those foundations wouldn't make sense.

I'd like to point out that it's some modern scholars that still think one of the requirements to be an apostle is to have been with Jesus before his ascension. Of course Paul was not, yet was called to be an apostle by Jesus in that vision he received. He was given the same authority as the 12, but didn't claim to be of the twelve.

The apostle James was murdered by order of king Herod Agrippa in Jerusalem, but there is no recorded succession or reappointment of anyone else to fill out the 12.
To the list of non-successive apostleship we find Barnabus (Acts 14:14), Sylvanus and Timotheus in 1 Thess 1:1, included by Paul in as sharing that office in 2:6, with no mention of any other of the 12 having helped them with the Thessalonian Church. I'll add one more, Epaphroditis, in Philippians 2:25, rendered in my KJV as "messenger" for the Greek "apostolos".

All apostles are messengers of the gospel. They weremen anointed to receive the pure word of God, then distribute it. They each were given that ministry, so they didn'[t have to "take it by faith" as some insist today, and along with the ministry were given signs and wonders, again it not being necessary to acquire those by faith. I can't find a single place in scriptures that limits apostleship to that period in history, but the apostle John ended changes to the gospel message in Revelation 22:17-21 (KJV)
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

It has been abundantly clear to most Bible scholars that must apply to the entire volume of God's word as recognized as true by many Christian witnesses in the first and second centuries. Nothing new beyond what they received can be trusted as "word of God", but messages to modern man can be regarded as inspired when in total harmony with what is written. Being in harmony assures no additions or deletions.

So taking the Bible literally, tradition of the RCC has the Pope having succeeded Peter "hand to hand" over the generations. It's unbiblical for them to make changes to truth on the basis of inherited authority in defiance of John's words. An apostle is commissioned to guard the original gospel of Christ, not modify it to match what the world apparently "needs" today, and to not submit to government given by God to man. Titus 3:1, Rom 13, etc. The Church is commanded to submit to authorities, and that includes the Pope. That doesn't mean having to agree to every principle or carry out commands that violate God's word. We have the choice, but be prepared to pay a heavy price for disobeying them.

 

[fightngwrmwood]

Dovegiven, thanks for posting such a clear and thoughtful reply to this thread! I very much resonated with your comments regarding what especially church leaders who add, change or retract the Word face, as I have in previous points by Sue J.

You wrote:
"Of course Paul was not, yet was called to be an apostle by Jesus in that vision he received. He was given the same authority as the 12, but didn't claim to be of the twelve."

I wanted to add this scripture where Paul explicitly claims his apostleship from 1 Cor 15:9, just to piggy back on that point. He clearly, (and seemingly reluctantly) admits he holds that "office" or leadership role.
"For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."

 

[Listening]

P

I have a question, maybe you can answer. The 12 apostles were the 12 disciples (-Judas) + Matthias, who was chosen to replace Judas, correct? All of them had been with Jesus, which was a requirement for apostleship, correct? These are the 12 apostles spoken of in Rev. 21:14, correct? Then, where does Paul fit in? He was an apostle of Christ, but not one of the original 12, so he was no. 13. Was he the last apostle? Was anyone after him called an apostle? Sorry for all the questions, but this is new territory for me, i.e. something I have not previously studied, and so I am trying to understand it. Any help would be appreciated, but I am going to do some research on this, too. Thanks for whatever help you can give. God bless!

Paul was training Timothy, i do not know if Timothy was an apostle though.
Apostles planted churches.

 

[Listening]

Not sure where to place this, but I was wondering if any of you knew anything about this subject. I just became aware of this yesterday, so it is new to me. I did some research on it yesterday, but if you have anything to share with me on this subject, I would appreciate your input. Thanks.

Hi Sue,

This is one man who worked for the pope to bring about unity with popes great city
This is his former website which is ecumenical website which has very few articles and is in my opinion a front.
Never the less, they promoted apostolic succession, the mans name was Tony Palmer and he claimed to have come in the spirit of elijah to join all churches to unity with the pope.

Here is a video about his speech on behalf of the one who is called pope

Pope Francis, Christian Unity,Tony Palmer, Kenneth Copeland PROPHECY FULFILLED
Tony Palmer died on the catholic feast day of Elijah
» Apostolic Succession Ark Community

 

[Listening]

Not sure where to place this, but I was wondering if any of you knew anything about this subject. I just became aware of this yesterday, so it is new to me. I did some research on it yesterday, but if you have anything to share with me on this subject, I would appreciate your input. Thanks.

Hi Sue,

This is one man who worked for the pope to bring about unity with popes great city
This is his former website which is ecumenical website which has very few articles and is in my opinion a front.
Never the less, they promoted apostolic succession, the mans name was Tony Palmer and he claimed to have come in the spirit of elijah to join all churches to unity with the pope.

Here is a video about his speech on behalf of the one who is called pope

Pope Francis, Christian Unity,Tony Palmer, Kenneth Copeland PROPHECY FULFILLED
Tony Palmer died on the catholic feast day of Elijah
» Apostolic Succession Ark Community

Tony Palmer said "we know that Elijah to Prophet is going to come again before the return of Jesus"

I think he may have been taking out of context the prophecy of the two witnesses
Who during the prophetic 1260 days preach in sack cloth and ashes a message of repentance
And who after they finish their testimony are killed by the beast that ascends out of the pit
And all the world sees them dead but does not bury them
Instead they send gifts to one another and are happy they are dead.

I believe scripture is talking about those killed under the 1260 prophetic days of antichrists rule
It is true that the papacy had supreme rule for 1260 years from the roman decree to give primacy to the bishop of Rome in 538 ad to the destruction of all papal power in 1798 By order of Napoleon, which is 1260 years, during which time the popes had murdered 100 million saints according to historical estimates ( some have that figure higher.)

I also believe the reason the two witnesses are Said not To be given burial is because the world ignores that they are dead. Refuse to acknowledge they are dead Because of theIr testimony of the word of God
That is, and dead at the hands of the popes.

9And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves. 10And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

God Said he does not avenge these saints murdered by the papacy until he destroys the great city with fire.

 

[B-A-C]

There were of course the original 12.
Judas was replaced by Matthias. ( Acts 1:23-26; )

But Paul and Barnabas are also called apostles... ( 12 + 1 + 2 = 15 )
Acts 14:14; Acts 15:2; Acts 15:22;

Paul does call himself an apostle in the first verse of almost every epistle.
Rom 1:1; 1 Cor 1:1' 2 Cor 1:1; Gal 1:1; Eph 1:1; Col 1:1; 1 Tim 1:1; 2Tim 1:1; Titus 1:1;

Apparently the Gentiles had different ministries.... for example Paul was called an Apostle to the Gentiles.
( Rom 11:13; 1 Tim 2:7; )
Peter was called an apostle to the Jews. ( Gal 2:8; 1 Pet 1:1; etc... )

Many scholars do not count Matthias...
In the Old testament Israel wanted a King, they chose Saul. Saul wasn't a very good king.
God chose David. While David wasn't perfect, he was a Godly king for the most part.
Matthias was chosen by men, we never hear about him again after Acts 1.
We hear quite a bit about Paul (over half the New Testament was written by him).

 

[B-A-C]

I couldn't find this verse earlier, but as Dovegiven mentioned, another of Paul's ministries was to "defend the Gospel".
Php 1:15-16;

 

[Bendito]

Hi Sue,

This is one man who worked for the pope to bring about unity with popes great city
This is his former website which is ecumenical website which has very few articles and is in my opinion a front.
Never the less, they promoted apostolic succession, the mans name was Tony Palmer and he claimed to have come in the spirit of elijah to join all churches to unity with the pope.

Here is a video about his speech on behalf of the one who is called pope

Pope Francis, Christian Unity,Tony Palmer, Kenneth Copeland PROPHECY FULFILLED
Tony Palmer died on the catholic feast day of Elijah
» Apostolic Succession Ark Community

I believe Copeland to be a Godly man but there is his weakness. He is a man.
He can be deceived just like the rest of us.
Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

You are the elect too. Don't let the enemy deceive you into judging others. You know why don't you?

 

[B-A-C]

You are the elect too. Don't let the enemy deceive you into judging others. You know why don't you?

Well... kind of.

Matt 7:5; You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

It's OK to judge, but don't be a hypocrite about it.

Luke 6:41; Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Luke 6:42; Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

We are supposed to judge those who are in the church, who call themselves Christians.

1 Cor 5:12; For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1 Cor 5:13; But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

God judges those who aren't in the church.

Matt 7:2; says we will be judged as we judge others. So make sure you're judging rightly.
In fact... as soon as we admonish someone "don't judge others"... we are in fact judging them.

We are to admonish (correct) each other. 1 Thess 5:14;
We are to correct those who are in error ( 2 Tim 2:25; 2 Tim 3:16; )

In Matt 18:15-17; we are given instructions (by Jesus) of how to discipline those in the church.
In 1 Cor 5:1-2; Paul gives the same advice.

 

[Bendito]

Well... kind of.

Matt 7:5; You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

It's OK to judge, but don't be a hypocrite about it.

Luke 6:41; Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Luke 6:42; Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,’ when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye.

We are supposed to judge those who are in the church, who call themselves Christians.

1 Cor 5:12; For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church?
1 Cor 5:13; But those who are outside, God judges. Remove the wicked man from among yourselves.

God judges those who aren't in the church.

Matt 7:2; says we will be judged as we judge others. So make sure you're judging rightly.
In fact... as soon as we admonish someone "don't judge others"... we are in fact judging them.

We are to admonish (correct) each other. 1 Thess 5:14;
We are to correct those who are in error ( 2 Tim 2:25; 2 Tim 3:16; )

In Matt 18:15-17; we are given instructions (by Jesus) of how to discipline those in the church.
In 1 Cor 5:1-2; Paul gives the same advice.

Right. Everywhere in the New Covenant where God says to judge ourselves, it's talking about judging ourselves guilty,and confessing to get cleaned up. Where it says we judge each other its talking about us being our own courts. We judge who is in the right or wrong in a dispute among the bretheren. It says nothing about condemning anybody ever. We always need God's mind on everything.

 

[Listening]

The crux of the matter is this:
Wolves are leading the sheep to a man who claims to be the head of the church
Wolves are leading the lambs and sheep to a man who has a name of blasphemy
Which is that claim to be head of the church; a name of blasphemy that says he is ;
the great high priest of the universal church; Which is THE Title of God in Christ himself.

As for judging, the prince of this world now stands condemned.