Welcome!

By registering with us, you'll be able to discuss, share and private message with other members of our community.

SignUp Now!
  • Welcome to Talk Jesus Christian Forums

    Celebrating 20 Years!

    A bible based, Jesus Christ centered community.

    Register Log In

Ask an Atheist.

I find it quite ironic that Asanima was the one to say that man is a decent loving creature (remember that God made man and that He said that it was "very good" Gen:1 31). Also, Asanima was the one to say that science and (real) religion cannot contradict each other. After all, God made both and He is perfect, He cannot make mistakes. How could He make something that contradicts something else created? Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." Jesus said THE truth, there is only one. Asanima is searching for the truth through the study of God's creation (science), if he is looking for the truth, he will find It. Remember also that God is a just judge, if Asanima is searching as hard as he can to find the Truth, why wouldn't God judge favorably upon him?

Asanima will find God, make no mistake of that, but I do not think that one can find God through a false idea of Faith (the believing of things unseen, not unprovable). When Jesus walked the earth and said He was God, He didn't just say "Believe in Me," He also worked miracles to prove it. And when Thomas did not believe that Jesus had risen until he, "put his fingers in His hands, and hand in His side," remember that Thomas ended up finding Him.

Not ironic at all.
People who do not believe in God only have Self to believe in.
Therefore they have to believe that man is a decent loving creature.

You quoted Genesis but omit the part where the first man Adam chose to disobey God,
therefore all humankind inherit the sin nature that we all are born with.

You also quoted the Lord saying that no one comes to the Father except through Me.
But you omit the explanation on what that means. Here it is in Romans 3:22-26

This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood —to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished — he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

You quoted Thomas' believing the Lord's resurrection, but omit the part when the Lord said "“Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” The Lord was addressing Thomas' doubt, not commending him for pursuing God through science.

Friend, there is no other way to find God except through the realization that we are desperate, sinful creature in need of salvation that only Lord Jesus can provide. Please be careful picking up Bible verses here and there and marrying it with what we think is right, to come up with our own doctrines. That path can only lead to confusion.
 
Last edited:
I started this thread to keep the other threads on topic. So, if you have any questions about my personal beliefs or Atheism in general,C
'preciate it,
Mick
I started this thread to keep the other threads on topic.

Indeed? What is on your mind that you proclaim such?
. So, if you have any questions about my personal beliefs or Atheism in general, I'll do my best to answer.

No questions at all dear friend.

. So, if you have any questions about my personal beliefs or Atheism in general, I'll do my best to answer.


No questions at all......

"there is a way that seems good to a man.....but such way is the way of death" (bible)
 
Adam chose to disobey God, and as such he chose what he wanted over what God wanted. Thus, we are born with an inclination to chose to follow the flesh, rather than follow God's will. The quote from Romans says how Jesus had perfect Faith (being that He is God and a Perfect Being). And yes, I omitted the part where Jesus spoke to Thomas, but notice how he says, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” He did not say that Thomas was wrong, only that it was better to have faith instead of only using the senses.

"Friend, there is no other way to find God except through the realization that we are desperate, sinful creature in need of salvation that only Lord Jesus can provide." Sort of. That is the first step, but we must "Earn our way to salvation" as St. Paul puts it. Also we must continue practicing the faith lest we "lose the race" (St. Paul again, I think that it is in Romans, but my time is limited online so I cannot double-check).

"Please be careful picking up Bible verses here and there and marrying it with what we think is right, to come up with our own doctrines. That path can only lead to confusion."
That is the correct advice... Just be careful who is lecturing who here. I need all the prayers I can get, please pray for me :D
 
"Please be careful picking up Bible verses here and there and marrying it with what we think is right, to come up with our own doctrines. That path can only lead to confusion."
That is the correct advice... Just be careful who is lecturing who here. I need all the prayers I can get, please pray for me :D

Hahaha... indeed.
All of us need prayers, more importantly we need to pray so we don't lose focus on who we are indebted to, or worse, think that we know it all.
 
Hello Asanima.

You stated the following in reply.

But is it a belief without evidence? No. My senses confirm, provide evidence that what i experience is real. And my interaction with other people, also confirm this.

If by "Prove", you are talking about providing evidence, providing a reasonable amount of evidence and arguments that support that something in science is true, then yes, i can "prove" things in science.

If by "Prove", you are talking about absolute proof, 100% knowledge, then no, i cannot "prove" anything in science. But such a definition of proof, is useless. It serves no practical use.


Your last line is by far the most crucial argument Asanima.

Absolute proof is impossible!

So with what certainty??

"Certainty" is impossible to measure, ultimately you do not know!

No scale may be established to measure certainty.

Not a scale, no, but comparisons, surely. We can determine whether we are more certain, or less certain about something, just like we can determine if something is more, or less likely to occur.

Pyrrho is credited as being the first Skeptic philosopher. The main principle of Pyrrho's thought is expressed by the word acatalepsia, which denotes the ability to withhold assent from doctrines regarding the truth of things in their own nature; against every statement its contradiction may be advanced with equal justification. Secondly, it is necessary in view of this fact to preserve an attitude of intellectual suspense, or, as Timon expressed it, no assertion can be known to be better than another. (wikipedia)

No argument may be proposed without there existing a counter argument(s).

Sure.

Your senses Asanima may in fact be your greatest hindrance.

In Christianity, senses are the hindrance.

Again, sure.

A reasonable certainty may not exist either.

This is where i fail to grasp your argument.

We can be reasonably certain about many things. As descartes says, I think, therefore i am, and i am fairly, highly certain that i exist. I experience some sort of reality. How is this not reasonable certainty?

Without absolute knowledge it is impossible to pursue knowledge,
as you do not know just what knowledge avenue you should take.

I also do not understand your argument here.

I do not need absolute knowledge in order to gain or pursue knowledge. I dont need to know everything about an apple to know that it exists.

What is the certainty that you have chosen the correct field
of knowledge is unknowable.

What assumptions are justifiable? Are they ever justifiable?

Assumptions? Depends on the evidence, the reasoned arguments behind it, and they become justifiable if there is a good reason, good evidence to accept it.
You may believe that you can make an assumption, but this is only
in the end a faith system.

No, its not faith, we have evidence, reason to believe that, for example, I exist, or this apple exists. My senses confirm that this apple exists. I confirm that i exist.

"Practical purposes"?, are nuclear weapons practical asanima?

In a sense, yes, if only to provide a balance of power to nations who oppose us who also have nuclear weapons. Its a concept called MAD, or mutually assured destruction. It really depends on what the purpose, what the usage of it is.
 
I started this thread to keep the other threads on topic. So, if you have any questions about my personal beliefs or Atheism in general, I'll do my best to answer. But please keep such questions or attempts to convert me in this thread, so other threads do not get derailed.

'preciate it,
Mick

What are your thoughts about aliens?

I may not get back to this for a few days or so due to going out of town.
 
What are your thoughts about aliens?

I may not get back to this for a few days or so due to going out of town.

Since im an atheist, i suppose ill reply.

I dont believe in aliens, but i dont deny the possibility that they may exist.
 
A reasonable certainty may not exist either.
"This is where i fail to grasp your argument."

You fail to grasp the argument because you have been
conditioned to believe in the path of enlightenment (knowing)
through the logical acquisition of knowledge. This logical
acquisition of knowledge has as an initial step, the creation
of the assumptions. What is believed (faith) to be true!
Are the assumptions valid? There validity is unknown,
once again absolute knowledge is necessary to assess the validity
of an assumption(s).

You quoted Rene Descartes, "I think therefore I am". I am fond
of Rene Descartes, he regarded the senses as open to deception.
Hence, the only valid process Rene could rely on was his thought
process. Thus, the direct result of his thinking was that he existed,
this was his primary truth. He was certainly not an empiricist.

I would have debated the concept of Rene's existence of course.
Only when a person has received the Holy Spirit does a person
understand what existence really is. It is not an intellectual
realization or affirmation, but a spiritual enlightenment to the true
and valid realization of Jesus Christ. No assumptions, no rabbit from
the hat approach. This is not a probability of reasonable certainty
that science is handicapped by.

This is revelation of the only truth, we are created. Our existence
is maintained by Jesus, the source and author of life itself. Jesus
maintains all, the universe, you and I.

This is most certainly true Asanima, you regard science
as justifiable belief. Never absolutely true but an approximation
to some extent. Just what the approximation consists of becomes
a metaphysical pursuit Asanima. Surely you understand this.

Plato and the whole idea of an independent reality, moreover, took a shot
to the mouth in the 1920s with the advent of quantum mechanics.
According to that weird theory, which, among other things, explains why our
computers turn on every morning, there is an irreducible randomness at the
microscopic heart of reality that leaves an elementary particle, an electron, say,
in a sort of fog of being everywhere or anywhere, or being a wave or a particle,
until some measurement fixes it in place.

In that case, according to the standard interpretation of the subject, physics is not
about the world at all, but about only the outcomes of experiments, of our clumsy
interactions with that world. But 75 years later, those are still fighting words.
Einstein grumbled about God not playing dice.

But perhaps, as Dr. Davies complains, Plato is really dead and there are no timeless laws or truths.
A handful of poet-physicists harkening for more contingent nonabsolutist laws not
engraved in stone have tried to come up with prescriptions for what John Wheeler,
a physicist from Princeton and the University of Texas in Austin, called “law without law.”

As one example, Lee Smolin, a physicist at the Perimeter Institute for Theoretical Physics,
has invented a theory in which the laws of nature change with time. It envisions universes
nested like Russian dolls inside black holes, which are spawned with slightly different
characteristics each time around. But his theory lacks a meta law that would prescribe how
and why the laws change from generation to generation.

Holger Bech Nielsen, a Danish physicist at the Niels Bohr Institute in Copenhagen, and one
of the early pioneers of string theory, has for a long time pursued a project he calls
Random Dynamics, which tries to show how the laws of physics could evolve naturally
from a more general notion he calls “world machinery.”

But, is it to soon for any Einsteinian to throw in his or her hand.
Since cosmologists don’t know how the universe came into being,
or even have a convincing theory, they have no way of addressing
the conundrum of where the laws of nature come from or whether
those laws are unique and inevitable or flaky as a leaf in the wind.

Oh, the assumptions are in themselves so problematic.
Methinks one has to believe Asanima, in the end that is
what science ulimately is, a belief system, a faith.
No certainty, comparable or otherwise in an empirical
construction.
 
The problem with the scientific approach is what constitutes a known proven fact. How much of life is based on assumption and educated guesses based on circumstances, environment, perception, etc. Is not everything we do or believe an act of faith?

If the answer is no, then what we base our beliefs and actions upon must be proven by an agreeable method. The method itself cannot be flawed, or biased, or it would yet again be inconclusive. In essence the only litmus test to prove whether or not a perfect being did in fact exist would itself have to be perfect! Otherwise we are left to trial and error and comparison and contrast to determine the method of testing, the conditions of the test, analyzing the results thereof and so on. Without faith we are left to test the infinite number of possible scenarios that exist, for only by testing each and every possible alternative could we ever come to an acceptable conclusion.</SPAN>

This would be like saying it is wrong to say that murder, rape and stealing is wrong without conclusive evidence, i.e personal experience without personal prejudice!</SPAN>

Even if the existence of God could be proven, to know that it was truly Him, we then would have to have sufficient evidence that all the claims and attributes of His deity were proven also, otherwise God, as He is defined, does not exist, or at least the one claiming to be God was in fact not.</SPAN>
 
Last edited:
Back
Top