Baptism In The Holy Spirit

[StarOfDavid40]

holy spirit baptism I have a question?

Holy Spirit Baptism was it a promise or a command? if promise, who was the promise made to. If a command where is it in the bible?

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Holy Spirit Baptism was it a promise or a command? if promise, who was the promise made to. If a command where is it in the bible?

"I (John the Baptist) baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one (Jesus) who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry . He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." (Mt 3:11)

Many (myself included) believe that the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is the baptism with fire refered to in this verse. The first Baptism in the Holy Spirit occured on the Day of Pentecost recorded in Acts 2, the day when Christianity was birthed in an unprecedented burst of miraculous power from God.

Sadly, as time went on, the church split into different ideological divisions and drifted away from God to the point where many came to believe that miracles had ceased with the death of the last of the Twelve Apostles.

In 1906, at a little mission house in Los Angeles, California, a second Pentecost came. Holy Spirit power erupted again. Again, the Spirit began to move in the earth.That movement is still going on, especially in the Third World. Awesome stuff is going on in the earth among people who are diligently seeking God (see Hebrews 11:6) and are truly open to what He is doing.

Is the Baptism in the Holy Spirit a command? No. It is a gift from God that is available to those with the faith to believe in things they do not understand (see Hebrews 11:1) and zeal to see people saved and healed.

I initially experienced the power of the Holy Spirit in spring of 1983. To begin, He gave me two awesome gifts: He took away my dependency on alcohol and replaced it with a raging thirst for His Word, the Bible,that continues to this day. He took me from being an angry, hopeless alcoholic to being a man whose life has real purpose and excitement. I love it and I love Him for it.


SLE

 

[topzy]

I've been desiring to speak in tongues. How long does it take to receive this gift or manifestation?

If you are born again and the spirit of God lives in you get someone who is filled with the holy spirit also to lay hands on you and before you know it you'll begin to speak in tongues.It takes faith also to actually open your mouth to speak in other tongues.So also is yeildedness.

 

[jiggyfly]

Holy Spirit Baptism was it a promise or a command? if promise, who was the promise made to. If a command where is it in the bible?

I believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit is both a promise and a command.

Luke 24:44-49
44*And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45*Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, 46*and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47*and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48*And ye are witnesses of these things.
49*And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Acts1:1-
1*The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2*until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: 3*to whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4*and, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5*For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

There were about five hundred people who followed Jesus, but you only read about the hundred and twenty who stayed in Jerusalem until they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit doing great things for the Kingdom of God.

 

[4Jesus]

Holy Spirit Baptism was it a promise or a command? if promise, who was the promise made to. If a command where is it in the bible?

Greeting in Jesus' Precious Name.

I believe the Word tells us the Baptism, first of the Holy Spirit, is to convict of Sin and convince of rightousness (the sanctification of the believer);

Scripture: John 16:5-11
5 But now I am going to him who sent me; yet none of you asks me, `Where are you going?' 6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your hearts. 7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I go away, for if I do not go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8 And when he comes, he will convince the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment: 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me; 10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no more; 11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

This is followed by the Baptism of Fire to empower the Baptised believer;

Scripture: Matthew 3:11 (Also Luke 3:16)

"I baptize with water those who turn from their sins and turn to God. But someone is coming soon who is far greater than I am--so much greater that I am not even worthy to be his slave. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

The fire baptism equips and enables fearless bold witnessing. It is interesting to note how Peter (afraid up to this point) received the Baptism of Fire (Acts 2:3 'Tongues of Fire) risked crucifixion , and spoke with the power of Holy Ghost Fire - convicting those listening of their sin; "and the Lord added to their number day by day those who were saved (v47).

However, we need to first accept the gift promised in the following
Scriptures.

Joel 2:28-32 (New Living Translation)

The LORDs Promise of His Spirit

28"Then after I have poured out my rains again, I will pour out my Spirit upon all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy. Your old men will dream dreams. Your young men will see visions. 29In those days, I will pour out my Spirit even on servants, men and women alike.
30"I will cause wonders in the heavens and on the earth--blood and fire and pillars of smoke. 31The sun will be turned into darkness, and the moon will turn bloodred before that great and terrible day of the LORD arrives. 32And anyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved. There will be people on Mount Zion in Jerusalem who escape, just as the LORD has said. These will be among the survivors whom the LORD has called.

Acts 2:14-21 (New Living Translation)

Peter Preaches to a Crowd

14Then Peter stepped forward with the eleven other apostles and shouted to the crowd, "Listen carefully, all of you, fellow Jews and residents of Jerusalem! Make no mistake about this. 15Some of you are saying these people are drunk. It isn't true! It's much too early for that. People don't get drunk by nine o'clock in the morning. 16No, what you see this morning was predicted centuries ago by the prophet Joel:
17 `In the last days, God said,
I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.

18 In those days I will pour out my Spirit
upon all my servants, men and women alike,
and they will prophesy.

19 And I will cause wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below--
blood and fire and clouds of smoke.

20 The sun will be turned into darkness,
and the moon will turn bloodred,
before that great and glorious day of the Lord arrives.

21 And anyone who calls on the name of the Lord
will be saved.'


Many blessings
David

 

[DanV]

Spiritual Gifts

Before the New Testament was completed, while it was in the process of being written, in certain places, and at certain times, God gave special Miraculous Manifestations of the Holy Spirit to help the Churches guide themselves in the Truth.



This was necessary, because the Apostles were few, the Churches far apart, the means of transportation and communication slow, no railroads, telegraphs or radios. Ideas could travel no faster that people could travel, the Churches everywhere overrun with false teachers making all kinds of false claims, and Churches had no written records as to actual facts.



Apparently there had been a brilliant display of Gifts of the Holy Spirit in Corinth. One of these gifts was that of Speaking in Tongues, that is, in a Foreign Language, probably, as the Apostles did on the day of Pentecost - Acts 2:8. This gift, whatever it was, was very popular with the Corinthians. They all wanted it. If a brother could get up in a meeting, and speak right out in a language that his neighbor knew he had never studied, that would be plan evidence that he was under direct control of the Holy Spirit. And they would look up to him. Then, as now, some people went to Church for the honor they could get out of it for themselves.



The various gifts of the Spirit, some natural, some supernatural, as enumerated in 1 Corinthians 12: 8-10, were Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, Healings, Miracles, Prophecy, Tongues, Interpreting of Tongues.



It is a discussion of the Relative Value of these various gifts that the Love chapter is set.



The Premier Teaching of Christianity is an undying expression of Jesus' doctrine of Heavenly Love. More potent for the building of the Church than any, or all, of the various manifestations of God's Power. Love, the Church's most effective weapon. Love, without which all the various Gifts of the Spirit are of no avail. Love, the Essence of God's Nature. Love, the Perfection of Human Character. Love, the most Powerful Ultimate Force in the Universe.



Even if I bestow all my goods to Feed the Poor, even if I give my body to be burned, if I HAVE NOT LOVE, it Profits me Nothing - 1 Corinthians 13:3.



What a Thought-Provoking passage! The Gift of Speaking like an Angel, of Prophesying, of having All Knowledge, of Faith that Moves Mountains, of Charity to the last dollar, even Martyrdom, all of no use unless we have the Spirit of Christian LOVE. What a call to Self-Examination!



God Bless,



DanV

 

[jiggyfly]

The various gifts of the Spirit, some natural, some supernatural, as enumerated in 1 Corinthians 12: 8-10, were Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, Healings, Miracles, Prophecy, Tongues, Interpreting of Tongues.

You seem to be misunderstanding this scripture in 1Corinthians chapter 12 DanV there is nothing natural about these gifts, they are all supernatural manifestations of the HolySpirit.Yes we all need to allow the HolySpirit to manifest love, joy, peace, patience, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. But to deny the nine spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit is to deny His governing power and authority also, which would make the body of Christ nothing more than any other religious group. Jesus Himself said that signs and wonders shall follow those who believe, via the Holy Spirit. The only thing that has ceased is our willingness to submit to the Holy Spirit's guidance.

 

[DanV]

You seem to be misunderstanding this scripture in 1Corinthians chapter 12 DanV there is nothing natural about these gifts, they are all supernatural manifestations of the HolySpirit.

"The various gifts of the Spirit, some natural, some supernatural" - as we pray and earnestly desire the best gifts we will receive them; free from affectation or artificiality. Some, however, naturally, have the gift of helps or administration. Other 'gifts' are acquired, as we pray, supernaturally.


Chapter 14, is discussion of the Relative Value of Tongues and Prophesying, which seem to have been the two gifts most sought after.


"Prophecy" was teaching on a lofty plane. It is not "foretelling" so much as Prophesying, which ordinarily meant Predicting Future Events, here seems to mean Teaching by special aid of the Spirit. Ordinarily it was far more valuable than Speaking in Tongues, because everybody understood it.


God Bless,


DanV

 

[Chad]

In regards to what Dan and jiggyfly have said, I think we can all agree on this one simple matter (surely not to stir off topic here or disregard the point in the Scripture quoted):

All gifts, all good things are always traced back to our Creator. So therefore anything "good" is always certainly from GOD, for His glory. Any gift or anything we have is directly from Him in the end.

Amen

 

[DanV]

In regards to what Dan and jiggyfly have said, I think we can all agree on this one simple matter (surely not to stir off topic here or disregard the point in the Scripture quoted):

All gifts, all good things are always traced back to our Creator. So therefore anything "good" is always certainly from GOD, for His glory. Any gift or anything we have is directly from Him in the end.
Amen

Yes, exactly, Chad, Amen and amen.
Romans 8:28, could also apply here.

God Bless,

Dan

 

[jiggyfly]

"The various gifts of the Spirit, some natural, some supernatural" - as we pray and earnestly desire the best gifts we will receive them; free from affectation or artificiality. Some, however, naturally, have the gift of helps or administration. Other 'gifts' are acquired, as we pray, supernaturally.


Chapter 14, is discussion of the Relative Value of Tongues and Prophesying, which seem to have been the two gifts most sought after.


"Prophecy" was teaching on a lofty plane. It is not "foretelling" so much as Prophesying, which ordinarily meant Predicting Future Events, here seems to mean Teaching by special aid of the Spirit. Ordinarily it was far more valuable than Speaking in Tongues, because everybody understood it.


God Bless,


DanV

The greek word interpreted as prophecy used in 1Corinthians chapter 14 is "Propheteuo" it means to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise prophetic office.

This subject has come up time and again here at TJ so I dont think anymore need be said about it. I don't see any value or gain in restating what has already been stated in this thread and the numerous others. God bless everyone.

 

[lightwait]

I did not look at all of the posts, however, I have a slant on the scripture presented. I believe the very Biblical words presented are the Spirit of God. I believe when we come out of the world's dialogue and speak the words of God—the true Spiritual water—we become immersed in them and we speak another language or tongue—we are swallowed up in victory. The words of Jesus are spirit and they are life. The words of Jesus are the language of God and when we practice them as acts of faith in God, we live in the very essence of God and are the light to the world—Christ then is risen upon us and we are submerged is His Holy Spirit.

Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

You may deny this concept, however, Jesus says that his words are spirit and I believe his words are the Holy Spirit / Holy Ghost. There comes a time when no man will teach us save the Holy Spirit that anoints us.

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Eph 5:
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

I speak in other tongues—the language of Christ Jesus and the prophets and the apostles—the words of God that are the Holy Spirit. I am baptized in the Holy Spirit—Christ Jesus is risen upon me. I am swallowed up in victory—baptized in and washed by the water of the word.

Blessings

 

[BecuzHeLives]

Keep praying brother

I've been desiring to speak in tongues. How long does it take to receive this gift or manifestation?

If you eagerly seek it, then it will happen soon sister because God promise in Mark 16:17 that we all will speak in new tounges. God Bless sister.

In Christ,
Quoc Thinh

 

[BecuzHeLives]

Before the New Testament was completed, while it was in the process of being written, in certain places, and at certain times, God gave special Miraculous Manifestations of the Holy Spirit to help the Churches guide themselves in the Truth.



This was necessary, because the Apostles were few, the Churches far apart, the means of transportation and communication slow, no railroads, telegraphs or radios. Ideas could travel no faster that people could travel, the Churches everywhere overrun with false teachers making all kinds of false claims, and Churches had no written records as to actual facts.



Apparently there had been a brilliant display of Gifts of the Holy Spirit in Corinth. One of these gifts was that of Speaking in Tongues, that is, in a Foreign Language, probably, as the Apostles did on the day of Pentecost - Acts 2:8. This gift, whatever it was, was very popular with the Corinthians. They all wanted it. If a brother could get up in a meeting, and speak right out in a language that his neighbor knew he had never studied, that would be plan evidence that he was under direct control of the Holy Spirit. And they would look up to him. Then, as now, some people went to Church for the honor they could get out of it for themselves.



The various gifts of the Spirit, some natural, some supernatural, as enumerated in 1 Corinthians 12: 8-10, were Wisdom, Knowledge, Faith, Healings, Miracles, Prophecy, Tongues, Interpreting of Tongues.



It is a discussion of the Relative Value of these various gifts that the Love chapter is set.



The Premier Teaching of Christianity is an undying expression of Jesus' doctrine of Heavenly Love. More potent for the building of the Church than any, or all, of the various manifestations of God's Power. Love, the Church's most effective weapon. Love, without which all the various Gifts of the Spirit are of no avail. Love, the Essence of God's Nature. Love, the Perfection of Human Character. Love, the most Powerful Ultimate Force in the Universe.



Even if I bestow all my goods to Feed the Poor, even if I give my body to be burned, if I HAVE NOT LOVE, it Profits me Nothing - 1 Corinthians 13:3.



What a Thought-Provoking passage! The Gift of Speaking like an Angel, of Prophesying, of having All Knowledge, of Faith that Moves Mountains, of Charity to the last dollar, even Martyrdom, all of no use unless we have the Spirit of Christian LOVE. What a call to Self-Examination!



God Bless,



DanV

Hi DanV, I think you have part of the answer correct. The most important things is FAITH, HOPE, and LOVE. I Cor. 13:13 As your love for God grow, your love for other around you will grow also. So another way of saying is that we must love God by following his commandment and have a close relationship with Him.

In my experience, when you love someone and unable to help them. As you pray God will equipped you with gifts including spiritual gifts to help them. In helping others along the way God will see our need and give us the gifts that is neccessary and approriate to serve him better. And some gifts God just give it to us for future uses. But the most importanting thing is that we use those gifts to serve him not ourselves, we also need to learn to humble ourselves because we are nothing without him. We're just dust without his Love.

In Christ,
Quoc Thinh

 

[maranatha]

tongues

Thank God HE gave me the anointing of Holy spirit when I didn't know about it. God is great

 

[JustJesus]

The Spirit of salvation enters man at the point of faith in believing Jesus as the Christ, convicting of sin, and revealing His true nature who He really is...God.

All of the works of God are done in Love, through Christ, by His Holy Spirit, or the scriptures would be broken assunder.

And the gifts of God are there to be partaken of gratefully, and never denied, nor shrunk away from, amen.

Praise the Lord...Jesus is good to us each and every day, amen!

 

[jiggyfly]

The Spirit of salvation enters man at the point of faith in believing Jesus as the Christ, convicting of sin, and revealing His true nature who He really is...God.

All of the works of God are done in Love, through Christ, by His Holy Spirit, or the scriptures would be broken assunder.

And the gifts of God are there to be partaken of gratefully, and never denied, nor shrunk away from, amen.

Praise the Lord...Jesus is good to us each and every day, amen!

I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to as the Spirit of salvation, Can you please elaborate with some scripture? Are you stating that the baptism into Christ and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are the same experience? Please list scriptures also.

 

[jculver]

I'm not sure I understand what you are referring to as the Spirit of salvation, Can you please elaborate with some scripture? Are you stating that the baptism into Christ and the baptism of the Holy Spirit are the same experience? Please list scriptures also.

So I really am interested in hearing more arguments for the view that most of the pentecostal and chars have. I have some questions I just want to see what you say about if you would please.


1 Corinthians 12:13

For also by one Spirit _we_ all were baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink into one Spirit.

With that I just don't see how you develop a dichotomy of carnal Christian/ spiritual Christian. That seems to indicate by your view, that the only true Christians are the ones who have recieved your version of the baptism, and the rest are damned because this would indicate they are outside the body of Christ. How do you reconcile your view with this verse?

Also I think this verse says the same:

1 Corinthians 6:17 "He that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."


It appears either we have the spirit and are part of the body, or your not a Christian at all. So I just don't understand where you get the basis for a dichotomy instead of just Christian/non-Christian.


Also if the baptism of the Spirit didn't make all believers one, then Jesus' prayer in John 17 remains unanswered. In verses 11, 21-23 He prays to the Father that His followers be one. The baptism of the Spirit made that possible; He has made us one inwardly and outwardly. Sometimes there will be disunity when we allow sin in our lives. But we are one body. We are mutually dependent on each other in the ministry of our spiritual gifts. By recognizing the baptism of the Spirit as the event that brings us into oneness, we realize that's how Jesus' prayer in John 17 was answered.


I can only make sense of these verses if we are all baptised when we believe, but am eager to hear what you have to say.

 

[jiggyfly]

So I really am interested in hearing more arguments for the view that most of the pentecostal and chars have. I have some questions I just want to see what you say about if you would please.


1 Corinthians 12:13

For also by one Spirit _we_ all were baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink into one Spirit.

With that I just don't see how you develop a dichotomy of carnal Christian/ spiritual Christian. That seems to indicate by your view, that the only true Christians are the ones who have recieved your version of the baptism, and the rest are damned because this would indicate they are outside the body of Christ. How do you reconcile your view with this verse?

Also I think this verse says the same:

1 Corinthians 6:17 "He that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit."


It appears either we have the spirit and are part of the body, or your not a Christian at all. So I just don't understand where you get the basis for a dichotomy instead of just Christian/non-Christian.


Also if the baptism of the Spirit didn't make all believers one, then Jesus' prayer in John 17 remains unanswered. In verses 11, 21-23 He prays to the Father that His followers be one. The baptism of the Spirit made that possible; He has made us one inwardly and outwardly. Sometimes there will be disunity when we allow sin in our lives. But we are one body. We are mutually dependent on each other in the ministry of our spiritual gifts. By recognizing the baptism of the Spirit as the event that brings us into oneness, we realize that's how Jesus' prayer in John 17 was answered.


I can only make sense of these verses if we are all baptised when we believe, but am eager to hear what you have to say.

Acts 8:4-19
4*But the believers who had fled Jerusalem went everywhere preaching the Good News about Jesus. 5*Philip, for example, went to the city of Samaria and told the people there about the Messiah. 6*Crowds listened intently to what he had to say because of the miracles he did. 7*Many evil spirits were cast out, screaming as they left their victims. And many who had been paralyzed or lame were healed. 8*So there was great joy in that city.
9*A man named Simon had been a sorcerer there for many years, claiming to be someone great. 10*The Samaritan people, from the least to the greatest, often spoke of him as “the Great One—the Power of God.” 11*He was very influential because of the magic he performed. 12 But now the people believed Philip’s message of Good News concerning the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ. As a result, many men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself believed and was baptized. He began following Philip wherever he went, and he was amazed by the great miracles and signs Philip performed.
14*When the apostles back in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted God’s message, they sent Peter and John there. 15 As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new Christians to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, for they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John laid their hands upon these believers, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18*When Simon saw that the Holy Spirit was given when the apostles placed their hands upon people’s heads, he offered money to buy this power. 19*“Let me have this power, too,” he exclaimed, “so that when I lay my hands on people, they will receive the Holy Spirit!”

Acts 19:1-7
1*While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior provinces. Finally, he came to Ephesus, where he found several believers.* 2*“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” he asked them.
“No,” they replied, “we don’t know what you mean. We haven’t even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”3*“Then what baptism did you experience?” he asked.
And they replied, “The baptism of John.”
4*Paul said, “John’s baptism was to demonstrate a desire to turn from sin and turn to God. John himself told the people to believe in Jesus, the one John said would come later.”
5 As soon as they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 Then when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in other tongues and prophesied. 7*There were about twelve men in all.

Arguing with me is not going to be productive, if you are satisfied with your paradigm, then there is no need to continue posting on these threads about the baptism of the HolySpirit. You do not seem to be open to the belief in the baptism of the HolySpirit so I don't understand why you continue to post. Do you just want to argue? Do you want to justify your belief? Please go and read the other threads and argue with God, I promise you will end up with better results. God bless

 

[jculver]

Acts 8:4-19
4*But the believers who had fled Jerusalem went everywhere preaching the Good News about Jesus. 5*Philip, for example, went to the city of Samaria and told the people there about the Messiah. 6*Crowds listened intently to what he had to say because of the miracles he did. 7*Many evil spirits were cast out, screaming as they left their victims. And many who had been paralyzed or lame were healed. 8*So there was great joy in that city.
9*A man named Simon had been a sorcerer there for many years, claiming to be someone great. 10*The Samaritan people, from the least to the greatest, often spoke of him as “the Great One—the Power of God.” 11*He was very influential because of the magic he performed. 12 But now the people believed Philip’s message of Good News concerning the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ. As a result, many men and women were baptized. 13 Then Simon himself believed and was baptized. He began following Philip wherever he went, and he was amazed by the great miracles and signs Philip performed.
14*When the apostles back in Jerusalem heard that the people of Samaria had accepted God’s message, they sent Peter and John there. 15 As soon as they arrived, they prayed for these new Christians to receive the Holy Spirit. 16 The Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them, for they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John laid their hands upon these believers, and they received the Holy Spirit.
18*When Simon saw that the Holy Spirit was given when the apostles placed their hands upon people’s heads, he offered money to buy this power. 19*“Let me have this power, too,” he exclaimed, “so that when I lay my hands on people, they will receive the Holy Spirit!”

Acts 19:1-7
1*While Apollos was in Corinth, Paul traveled through the interior provinces. Finally, he came to Ephesus, where he found several believers.* 2*“Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” he asked them.
“No,” they replied, “we don’t know what you mean. We haven’t even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”3*“Then what baptism did you experience?” he asked.
And they replied, “The baptism of John.”
4*Paul said, “John’s baptism was to demonstrate a desire to turn from sin and turn to God. John himself told the people to believe in Jesus, the one John said would come later.”
5 As soon as they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 Then when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in other tongues and prophesied. 7*There were about twelve men in all.

Arguing with me is not going to be productive, if you are satisfied with your paradigm, then there is no need to continue posting on these threads about the baptism of the HolySpirit. You do not seem to be open to the belief in the baptism of the HolySpirit so I don't understand why you continue to post. Do you just want to argue? Do you want to justify your belief? Please go and read the other threads and argue with God, I promise you will end up with better results. God bless

Obviously I am not satisfied with it I am trying to form an opinion on the issue genuinely. I have been taught one thing, but am interested to understand both arguments so I might form an opinion myself. I tend to lean the other way, and have for a while, so why would I not have questions that need answers? I have made it clear on another post that I don't agree with your definition of prophecy that I am sure of, but the issue of speaking in tongues remains an issue with me.

You did explain where you get the dichotomy, but I would still ask that you then explain those verses from your view because they still seem to indicate to me that the "believers" are not in the body until they recieve the laying on of hands etc. So again, I'm not just trying to be argumentative, I want to understand more your view. If you don't want to answer thats fine, but try and understand that when I say "I really am interested in hearing more arguments for the view that most of the pentecostal and chars have." I am not lying or doing it for arguments sake. It is a genuine interest and I do appreciate your answers.