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Belief in God

Good post Amadeus!

People consistently want some sort of proof of God's existance, proof is not faith, it is only when we have faith that we are able to recognize and "see" Him.

I can tell you that when I first became a believer, the proof that non-believers would like to have - God did not give it to me. If He did, then it wouldn't be in faith.

It is the difference between our human perception and the perception of God. Humans use their 5 senses, God goes beyond it, but we can not understand this without the Holy Spirit. I know I'm reiterating my last post, but it's true and is worth repeating.

The Israelites had enough proof of God's existance, He parted the Red Sea, He led them by fire and a cloud, rained down manna from heaven - yet they were still found in unbelief. Most people have seen the glory of God, in His creation. The likelihood of evolution, the number itself, is infinite, it's easier to believe God created the world, then it is to believe the improbability of everything coming from amobeas. The proof of creation is still not "good enough" for those wanting proof.
 
I suppose, then, that I'm impervious to faith.

*shrugs*

Faith is a gift from God, there is no other way to get it. If He gave you faith, it would penetrate you, you would KNOW He exists. There would be no denying His existence, but of course, we can deny Him, too, and reject Him.
 
I suppose, then, that I'm impervious to faith.

*shrugs*

By impervious, you mean that God cannot penetrate the barrier around you and that is so. God made it so. God is omnipotent, except, He cannot change what He has already spoken or done. He gave man, you and me and everyone, the ability to choose Him, or not. he, in effect, gave man the ability to limit God.

"And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

"Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel." Psalm 78:41

God does not force feed people with His Truth. He will help when His help is sincerely sought.

For those, who for whatever reason do not choose God, they have what they have in abilities and opportunities to enjoy natural life for whatever time they have to do so. There can rewards in natural life, but they are very limited.

To see more and want more requires a vision given to a person by God. He is willing to give such a vision to anyone, but it will not be there for wrong reasons:

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you" Matt 7:7

But...

"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts." James 4:3
 
I am constantly amazed at how important it is for atheists to evangelize. I mean, if there really isn't a God, then why does it matter if other people believe in him? What difference does it make to them? The other interesting thing I notice, is that typically they go after Christianity. Rarely do they attack Muslims,Buddhists or Hindu's. I wonder why this is so? I've never posted a single message on an atheist site, but I've many many many atheists post messages on TJ. While I can certainly understand why people who believe in heaven and hell would want to convince other people not to go there, I find it fascinating that people who believe in neither want to convince Christians not to either? Why? Why evangelize a "non-religion". Doesn't doing this turn atheism into a religion? More so, doesn't it validate Christianity? What are they afraid of "if it really doesn't matter".
 
Hello characteristics.

Like you I once did not know God, I had heard the name Jesus but
understood almost nothing about the claims that Christianity made
about Jesus.

I recommend that you seriously read the Gospel of Luke a number
of times. This will provide you with the background information so
that you will know why Jesus is revered amongst Christians.

At the very least you will derive an overview of the identity of
Jesus. There are four Gospels, Luke's Gospel is the easiest to read.

Here are some versus that specify the Gospel of Jesus as the premier
information that is required for salvation.


John 3

36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life,
but the wrath of God abides on him."


John 3
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world
might be saved through Him.


18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Romans 8
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.


Romans 10
9 That if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised
Him from the dead, you will be saved;
 
Good post Amadeus!


People consistently want some sort of proof of God's existance, proof is not faith, it is only when we have faith that we are able to recognize and "see" Him.


I can tell you that when I first became a believer, the proof that non-believers would like to have - God did not give it to me. If He did, then it wouldn't be in faith.


It is the difference between our human perception and the perception of God. Humans use their 5 senses, God goes beyond it, but we can not understand this without the Holy Spirit. I know I'm reiterating my last post, but it's true and is worth repeating.


The Israelites had enough proof of God's existance, He parted the Red Sea, He led them by fire and a cloud, rained down manna from heaven - yet they were still found in unbelief. Most people have seen the glory of God, in His creation. The likelihood of evolution, the number itself, is infinite, it's easier to believe God created the world, then it is to believe the improbability of everything coming from amobeas. The proof of creation is still not "good enough" for those wanting proof.


Heres the problem i have with your comment.


Faith and proof/evidence arent mutally exclusive. If God came down today and told everyone, in person, right infront of their eyes, that he is God, he exists, and that Christianity is real, that would surely count as proof. But i am also certain that there will be some Muslims out there who will say "Hahaha, look at those christians, being fooled by Satan. Clearly this is a trick." It still takes faith to believe that the evidence is reliable, as it does with believing that Creation is proof enough to accept that God exists.


I mean, if a person becomes a christian because he was convinced that God exists from the proof of creation, does that somehow make him a false christian, simply because he was convinced and believed due to proof?




I am constantly amazed at how important it is for atheists to evangelize. I mean, if there really isn't a God, then why does it matter if other people believe in him? What difference does it make to them? The other interesting thing I notice, is that typically they go after Christianity. Rarely do they attack Muslims,Buddhists or Hindu's. I wonder why this is so? I've never posted a single message on an atheist site, but I've many many many atheists post messages on TJ. While I can certainly understand why people who believe in heaven and hell would want to convince other people not to go there, I find it fascinating that people who believe in neither want to convince Christians not to either? Why? Why evangelize a "non-religion". Doesn't doing this turn atheism into a religion? More so, doesn't it validate Christianity? What are they afraid of "if it really doesn't matter".


Okay. First off, the fact is that beliefs inform your actions, and we live in a society, which means we affect each other. So yes, it does make a difference. If i help someone whose car broke down on the side of the road, it may not directly affect me in some huge way(apart from being a small inconvenience to myself). But what it does, is create a societal norm that benefits us all to be courteous and nice to other people in the hopes that someone will stop by and help me out when my car breaks down.


That, and i care about other people, as im sure you do too. The "What difference does it make to them" isnt an argument that should be used unless the person you are making it to, doesnt care about others.


Secondly, theres a reason why christians are the most "Picked on", so to speak. Its because almost every single developed country with free media and a decent internet connection is a majority christian country. That, and the most influential groups in, for example, the US, are christian groups. Maybe if the majority of Senators, governors and congress became Muslim, we would start worrying and start speaking out against Muslims more. But as it stands, they arent. And most of the problems that Muslims bring, dont really come close to home.


However, atheists are actually quite outspoken against Islam, and probably more than you think. Go to places like debate.org and youll see atleast 3 threads in the religious section of the forums dedicated to Islam. Go on youtube and youll see tons of video clips of people like Hitchens talking about Islam.


As for Buddhists or hindus, well, most Buddhists arent exactly theists, and Hindus arent really that big in countries that actually matter and are largely concentrated in India/south asia. Nor do either of them carry the same history and baggage that Islam or Christianity does.


Thirdly, its not about convincing christians not to. Its not a "Dont believe it" and more of a "Why would you believe it". Were not evangelizing a non-religion, were not going around saying "Atheism is the truth". Think about the last 50 atheists you saw on this board, how many of them said that? Every atheist i have seen so far on this forums and on most others, are asking questions, responding to arguments, starting discussion, and ive only once seen an atheist who actually said that Atheism is actually the truth. When someone says something, and you go "No, that cant be right", that doesnt make your position religious.


Also, how would it validate christianity? Im curious, because im sure there are chrstians out there who speak out against Islam, but that doesnt validate islam either.
 
Heres the problem i have with your comment.


Faith and proof/evidence arent mutally exclusive. If God came down today and told everyone, in person, right infront of their eyes, that he is God, he exists, and that Christianity is real, that would surely count as proof. But i am also certain that there will be some Muslims out there who will say "Hahaha, look at those christians, being fooled by Satan. Clearly this is a trick." It still takes faith to believe that the evidence is reliable, as it does with believing that Creation is proof enough to accept that God exists.

Asanima, God already visited us and we crucified Him.
 
David, God never visited me or any other person on this planet like he did with the jews and apostles back in 20 AD.

Hello asanima.

Your reply is curious to say the least.

I have met people that have had very intense
encounters with Jesus Christ, so powerful
in some cases that to question their conversion
would be pointless. They do truly know God and
have experienced God's interaction in their lives.

They have met Jesus asanima there is no doubt
about their encounter with God.

Some of these people I believe may have a stronger
faith than some of the apostles themselves.

God is as active now as He has always been, if
you follow the steps and do the research you will
encounter Jesus yourself. I followed the advice of
some christians many years ago and encountered
Jesus myself. There is no doubt in my mind as to
God's existence, in fact I struggle with other people
and their dismissal of the truth.

Your ability to have a personal relationship is only
restricted by the limitations that you impose
yourself. Many people never ask or allow God
to intervene in their lives, they refuse to ask God
himself for assistance. How would they ever be
aware of God unless it is revealed to them. It will
not be revealed unless you ask and seek.
 
Hello all. Hi Characteristics welcome. Its hope that brought me to Jesus. See i truly believe, u can probably attest to this, thatmost us humans will ask ourselves these 3questions. Where did we come from? What is our purpose to be here? And what happens when we die? Have u ever asked yourself these questioms.? Well i did.

Theres many religions out there. Yes atheists are a religion, look it up. Started i believe in either France or Russia. A good book to read is The Great Controversy. Many you habe to do some outrageous stuff to be considered honored to become a member. Anyway hope is what pulled me to Christ. Hope in knowing what is my purpose here in this life. Purpose in knowing where i came from and where im going. Hope in those people u love this is not the end.

Hope relieves alot of stress, worry and anxiety. It says in Jer 28:11-13, the LORD says "I know your thoughts and heart, when you search Me with all your heart, you will find me" I paraphrased dont have the know how to put the verse up.

Characateristics many people fight to know their maker, I pray that it doesnt take a very bad experience for you to realize that u were wrong. Many people in hospital settings and nursing homes will tell you when someone is facing death, knowingly only 2 things they think about. Its where r they going know after death. Next is family. Money, fame, material things dont matter. Science out the window. God bless take care
 
Characteristics, greetings to you!

I love your questions and your input here. I also think your answers show more insight that many of the "christian" comments.

I have to say that I disagree with many of the answers given so far. I quite understand that the bible is unconvincing nonsense to you. Why should it be anything but? The scriptures are usually meaningless to an unbeliever, because they are spiritually discerned.
The bible meant nothing to me for decades even after I first met God in my life, yet I knew he loved me. Like you I had no Christian input as a child, nor did I know any Christians until my mid 20s.

I don't expect the story of the cross to mean anything either. It was complete nonsense to me, even long after I knew the Lord. Again it says that it is spiritually discerned. The story of the crucifixion only started to make sense long after I became a Christian and grew in maturity a little.

I totally reject the notion, already mooted, that the faith that you require is a gift given by God only to a select few. Such an doctrine is what they generally call Calvinism, its just a sect of Christianity that puts all the onus on God to decide whether you or I go to hell rather than heaven. If it was true, then there is little point in you expending further effort in seeking, because if the "Calvinistic" God wants you in heaven, you would already possess all the faith you need to believe in him.

I therefore don't think we can do anything to convince you of God, that is a journey that you need to do. It is down to you alone. However there are some pointers which might help clear your vision a little.

As has already been mentioned here, faith in the Spiritual realm is not something that is discerned with our 5 "physical" senses. Even occultists are aware of our other senses. We are far more than flesh and blood or even intellect. We are first of all, spiritual beings, with spiritual senses, and this is true even for non christians. Everyone has a spirit, as well as a body and soul. The problem is that in the western world we spend all our time promoting our physical/intellectual persona at the expense of the spiritual. In fact I would confidently say that the more we promote the former, the more it crushes the latter.

Now for the nitty gritty.-

If God is really God, our creator, then nobody can approach him, or even perceive him, whilst walking in any sort of physical pride, or personal power, or status. Who we are counts for nothing as God is no respecter of persons. This means that all of our intellectual examination, microscope or telescope, will not find God. This is because he is not of this world. God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble. (Bible again, but experientially true)
To find God, you have to employ the other disused part of yourself, your hidden spirit man. That means that you will only find God when you humble yourself and become as a child as far as your intellect and knowledge is concerned. (biblical stuff again!)
You can seek forever as an adult and never find God, never experience the things of the kingdom of heaven. But make the decision to abandon all your adult prowess and make like a kid approaching his loving Dad, then you might get a sense of his presence near at hand.
 
Hello all. Hi Characteristics welcome. Its hope that brought me to Jesus. See i truly believe, u can probably attest to this, thatmost us humans will ask ourselves these 3questions. Where did we come from? What is our purpose to be here? And what happens when we die? Have u ever asked yourself these questioms.? Well i did.

I'm one of the few who doesn't. Unless someone asks me about such topics or I'm using the afterlife and existential questions in a story, I don't think about it. I don't see the point. There's no way of knowing what holds for you after death. So why dwell on it?

That means that you will only find God when you humble yourself and become as a child as far as your intellect and knowledge is concerned. (biblical stuff again!)

I understand what you're saying. And, at first, it makes sense that one would need spirituality to be able to connect with a spiritual being. But, if God is all powerful, why is he limited to the spiritual realm or world or whatever? It didn't seem like he was in the Bible, what with visiting people and sending angels to scope places. Secondly, children are wrong about a lot of things. If I humbled myself to the point where I was as intellectually inept as a child, what other useless junk would I still believe? Santa? The Easter bunny? The Tooth Fairy? That the toilet was a magical, bottomless well? Allah? And how would I be able to differentiate between the truth and the Santa Clauses?
 
I'm one of the few who doesn't. Unless someone asks me about such topics or I'm using the afterlife and existential questions in a story, I don't think about it. I don't see the point. There's no way of knowing what holds for you after death. So why dwell on it?



I understand what you're saying. And, at first, it makes sense that one would need spirituality to be able to connect with a spiritual being. But, if God is all powerful, why is he limited to the spiritual realm or world or whatever? It didn't seem like he was in the Bible, what with visiting people and sending angels to scope places. Secondly, children are wrong about a lot of things. If I humbled myself to the point where I was as intellectually inept as a child, what other useless junk would I still believe? Santa? The Easter bunny? The Tooth Fairy? That the toilet was a magical, bottomless well? Allah? And how would I be able to differentiate between the truth and the Santa Clauses?

Characteristics, I guess that you have watched Startrek, and are no stranger to the notion of alternative dimensions. A good way of understanding the kingdom of Heaven is to consider it as another dimension. It is unbiblical to just consider it to be a place we go after we die. Jesus made it clear that the Kingdom of Heaven was near to us, and accessible.
Many Christians freak out at such thoughts of dimensions, but it makes abundant sense and matches a whole load of scriptures.

Now, I know that the bible cannot and should not be used as a proof text for someone who doesn't believe its authority, but hang in there for a moment. When God created the earth, and Adam and Eve etc....... (Before I continue here, if you believe in a creator God, then you have to allow him to be powerful enough to do all sorts of "magic", rather than the earth just making itself, otherwise it is pointless continuing.).....God created the kingdom of heaven and the earth as a single existence, a single unified dimension. Adam and Eve were enjoying the Garden of Eden, or Paradise. This is the same Paradise that Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would go to with Jesus.

As an act of love God allowed Adam freewill. However there was one thing that He warned Adam about, and as I am sure you know, it was not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, otherwise he would die. I should add here that there was another Tree that Adam most certainly could, and should have eaten. That was the Tree of Life, which represents the freely available wisdom of God.

Now God was not threatening Adam that He would strike him dead if he ate of the wrong tree. God was just making it clear that there were fatal consequences for such an action.
So what was wrong with this Tree. The name gives it away, along with the words of Satan's temptation. For God surely knows that in the day that you eat of it, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as God, knowing good and evil (right and wrong).

God had given Adam dominion over all the creation, but that dominion was obviously under Gods higher dominion. Adam was created to walk in close unity with God and up to that point was in full spiritual relationship with God. The temptation of Satan was quite specific. Satan was challenging Adam to take charge of the planet himself, using his own reasoning power to work out what was good and evil, or right and wrong. Adam was choosing whether He should become the source of life and direction over the earth. Adam was choosing to dump God out of the equation. In doing that Adam was letting go of the Spiritual communion with God.

This is exactly what Adam did. In doing so, his spiritual nature immediately died, and he lost communion with God.
The Hebrew scriptures in Genesis make this clear. When God warned Adam, "you shall die", if you eat of that tree, the Hebrew words are more accurately translated as, "in dying you shall die." Some bibles show this in the margin notes or at the bottom of the page. It is clear then that there is a double death sentence being pronounced. This is why Adam wasn't killed outright. However he most certainly did die spiritually, and thus death became a part of this creation. Added to that, in obeying Satan, Adam bowed down to Satan's wisdom in preference to God's. Thus this planet became part of the jurisdiction of Satan. This is why Jesus called Satan, the God of this world.

Adam's regretful choice is the answer to your main question, if God is so powerful, why is he limited to the spiritual realm? God gave mankind freewill. Mankind chose to get rid of God, and repeatedly chooses the same. According to the bible, shortly after Adam's unilateral declaration of independence, God divided the created order and the spirit realm and the physical realm were now separated by a gulf. God always gives man freewill to choose.

God is a spirit, we are flesh and blood. Flesh and blood cannot see or hear God. It is only with our spiritual persona within each one of us, that we have any access to know God. If we are proud and arrogant with our intellect then it is impossible to hear or discern anything of God.

Regarding your comment about the foolishness of children, remember that it is adults in their human intellect who teach children about Santa, the Easter bunny and the tooth fairy! I am not suggesting that you adopt a child's intellect, but that for the sake of listening and hearing, you subject your intellect below your quiet spirit, rather than above. A young child has his intellect and spirit of equal worth, unlike adults.

If you really want to know something of God, then be prepared to be humble, and acknowledge him for who he is. If he really is the creator, and you are created, then he is somewhat different to you. God promises wisdom to all who ask, as long as they are willing to receive. Just a word of caution, don't expect a booming voice over the canyon. The reason I said to quieten your intellect is that it is an enemy to your spirit persona, and will make it almost impossible to hear the still small voice of the Spirit. Also God many times answers using the common things around us, but it still requires humility to comprehend it.

Sorry to be long winded, I hope it casts some light as to why we don't see God plain to the eyes like we see everything else.
 
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