Belief versus Piety

[At Peace]

First, my conviction on the death penalty has evolved from reasonable support to agnostic to definitely against. If you would like me to explain that evolution I am happy to. For now I’ll simply describe my current position in detail. If we, as the State, agree it is wrong to kill, and since as a practical matter in the US guaranteed due process under law is extremely lengthy and expensive in cases of capital offenses, society gains nothing from the execution of any prisoner in custody. If murdering someone against their will is bad it is not remedied by murdering someone against their will. As for Nazis and Amalekites, I’ll ask you to check out my unfortunately long winded explanation to KingJ about why, even as a Jew, I consider it immoral to subject all Nazis or all Germans to collective ethnic extermination because of their relatively successful campaign of genocide against “my“ people. What makes the Nazis evil is they engaged in genocide. That is not undone by committing another genocide, especially since by definition genocide entails the murdering of innocent children who took no part in the decisions or activities required for the Holocaust.

In my opinion, no one gains anything but the most base and fleeting emotional satisfaction from vengeance. In my opinion the merits of any penal system are to serve as a deterrent to would-be wrong doors, as a means of inducing wrongdoers to remedy the effects on society and individuals of whatever harm they have caused, and hopefully reduce the likelihood of more wrongdoing through rehabilitation. I don’t think today’s penal system accomplishes much of this, but I no longer believe that the execution of a prisoner for any to crime is ever a just punishment.

Now, as to standards of morals, I get why you value an absolute, unchanging set of laws with a seal of approval from an ultimate unchanging lawgiver, and obviously I don’t think that’s the world we live in. But I can at least explain why I have the perspective I do. My wife and children just left home for work and school. All of them were wearing clothing that is made of blended fibers. If I choose I can find a law in the old testament that decrees I must stone them to death for doing this. I don’t know of anyone, not even ISSis, who enforces this silly commandment. Now you may argue that according to the New Testament, the kosher rules of ritual and purity have been revised, and Wearing fabrics of blended fibers is no longer a capital offense. I agree. But that proves my point. No matter how unchanging you may consider God and Jesus are, the fact is the laws ARE, as a matter of principle, changeable.

Slavery is wrong. If I look to the Old Testament’s edicts regarding slavery, it is not. And if I look to the new testament for a repel of the sanction of slavery, the very most I can rely Upon is a rather twisted interpretation of injunctions to do things like “love thy neighbor as thyself”. Even St. Paul orders every man’s servants to serve their masters as anyone would serve Christ that to me is not a moral injunction.

Morals are systems humans compose and evolve on an ongoing basis. Cultures that have never heard of Jesus or Yahweh have very elaborate moral codes. And they evolve. It does not matter who originally composed Jude’s/Christian Western values. Was it God? Sure. Why not. And the morals enunciated in the NT might have been very spiffy and enlightened... 2,000 years ago. Bit not for me and the people I love today.

After reading the above, I surmise that you DO believe in God.
And He is you.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

After reading the above, I surmise that you DO believe in God.
And He is you.

Ah. Well, at least we can say for sure you’ve never seen me in a bathing suit. No one who ever has could say such a thing, even in jest. I’ll ask you to please stop resenting my hubris for a moment and think on this:

If you believe that morals are fixed, perfect and come only from God, then it is natural to feel justified in accusing anyone who lays claim to their own moral standards of pretending to be God.

But here is a difference: I don’t think my morals are perfect. I don’t think they can’t be changed. And (wait for it... are you sitting down?) I don’t think I’m the only one who comes up with morals. Everyone does. Even ... YOU! So, if you think I think I am God, you have to accept I also think YOU are God. And I (and, indeed, every code of justice in every society in history) will hold you to account accordingly. It would just never occur to me to use the word, “God.” I don’t know what your abs look like. But mine are a sorry excuse for what comes to mind when I think “God.” “Demigod,” ...maybe. But I digress, At Peace God. You are perfectly within your rights to conform your moral life to the morals offered in any established menu, including the Bible. Indeed, with so many sects of Christians, Jews, and Muslims, not to mention the other 2/3 of Earths 7 billion people who don’t follow any Abrahamic religion, if Morals are absolute and stuck as you seem to think, the fraction of humans who obey your very specific and immovable take on morals is a pretty lonely list.

So, I mean this in no way as any kind of joke. If you DO cleave to the morals enumerated in the Bible, how would you treat my family for wearing mixed fiber garments. (If it makes any difference, they are Jewish. Many think that certain OT laws are for everyone and others are just for Jews.) To make life easier, I’ll give you the citations:

Lev 19:19 and Deut 22:11

 

[At Peace]

Ah. Well, at least we can say for sure you’ve never seen me in a bathing suit. No one who ever has could say such a thing, even in jest. I’ll ask you to please stop resenting my hubris for a moment and think on this:
If you believe that morals are fixed, perfect and come only from God, then it is natural to feel justified in accusing anyone who lays claim to their own moral standards of pretending to be God.

As you esteem your self higher than you do God, finding fault with His morals and not your own, your next step will be to get others to worship you.
Is that why you are here at TJ?

But here is a difference: I don’t think my morals are perfect.

Just better than God's.

I don’t think they can’t be changed. And (wait for it... are you sitting down?) I don’t think I’m the only one who comes up with morals. Everyone does. Even ... YOU! So, if you think I think I am God, you have to accept I also think YOU are God. And I (and, indeed, every code of justice in every society in history) will hold you to account accordingly. It would just never occur to me to use the word, “God.” I don’t know what your abs look like. But mine are a sorry excuse for what comes to mind when I think “God.” “Demigod,” ...maybe. But I digress, At Peace God. You are perfectly within your rights to conform your moral life to the morals offered in any established menu, including the Bible. Indeed, with so many sects of Christians, Jews, and Muslims, not to mention the other 2/3 of Earths 7 billion people who don’t follow any Abrahamic religion, if Morals are absolute and stuck as you seem to think, the fraction of humans who obey your very specific and immovable take on morals is a pretty lonely list.

Jesus said we would be judged by the judgement we judge. (Matt 7:2)
I will be judged by the yardstick I use on others.
And you are correct to say "a lonely list".
Jesus wondered if He would even find faith when He returned. (Luke 18:8)

So, I mean this in no way as any kind of joke. If you DO cleave to the morals enumerated in the Bible, how would you treat my family for wearing mixed fiber garments. (If it makes any difference, they are Jewish. Many think that certain OT laws are for everyone and others are just for Jews.) To make life easier, I’ll give you the citations:
Lev 19:19 and Deut 22:11

If they were really Jews, they would have to obey ALL the law of Moses...including the stoning of adulterers, animal sacrifice, etc.
I thank God that I am a Christian of the second covenant, and my "list" of laws consists of...Love God above all else, and love my neighbor as myself.
And God makes that possible!

 

[Kirby D. P.]

...
I thank God that I am a Christian of the second covenant, and my "list" of laws consists of...Love God above all else, and love my neighbor as myself.
And God makes that possible!

I think there may be some static in our signal. I don’t consider my morals to be higher than God. I’m in a restaurant full of about 70 people right now and on a wild guess I would reckon my morals are only better than about 5 or 6 of them. (Who puts MUSTARD on a hamburger. Jeez!). If God does exist, and he is just, I do think his morals will be better than those articulated in the Bible. But I could also be wrong about that, too (another admission of possible fallibility God doesn’t seem to concede). I’m not here searching for any followers. I’m here because I have learned I don’t have a perfect understanding of what Christians believe and I don’t like having misconceptions. Secondarily, I have the impression Christians often concieve misimpression's of me when they learn I am an atheist and I figure no harm can come from correcting those if I can. If you scan back to the beginning of this thread, I came in asking questions, and not leading questions. Questions the answers to which I am seriously interested. But, as long as I’m here, I won’t lie or sugar coat my answers to the questions of others. Questions like, “Why don’t you believe in God?” and, “Why do you have problems with scripture.” I can’t MAKE you take me at my word. I can only hope you do. And try carefully to take you at yours. Unless you tell me otherwise, I assume you believe me when I say my children are “real” Jews. You say the only law you obey is loving God above all else, and loving your neighbors as yourself. OK. But the “blended fibers” laws call for the execution of Jews who break them. But it doesn’t specify that only Jews are required to perform that execution. Indeed, though he may have cleared the way for YOU to enjoy a ham sandwich, Jesus himself explicitly says his purpose is the FULFILLMENT of the law, excepting no “jot or tittle.”

So which is it? If we ever cross paths in person , should I worry more about the certainty you will stone my children? Or about you suffering damnation for flouting the law? Or should I simply trust that you see the moral wisdom of not stoning my children despite what scripture says about their poly/cotton blend LEGO Star Wars tee shirts?

 

[At Peace]

I don’t consider my morals to be higher than God.

So much for castigating God about slavery.

If God does exist, and he is just, I do think his morals will be better than those articulated in the Bible. But I could also be wrong about that, too (another admission of possible fallibility God doesn’t seem to concede).

What kind of God would concede anything to a man?

I’m not here searching for any followers. I’m here because I have learned I don’t have a perfect understanding of what Christians believe and I don’t like having misconceptions.

Here is what Christians believe...(insert bible here)
We believe we can perfectly please God 24/7 because we have been enabled to kill the old person we were (flesh), and be reborn of God's seed (Spirit), which cannot bear evil fruit.
We have been rewarded for our true "turn from" sin (repentance), with the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We will never be tempted above what we can handle. (1 Cor 10:13)
We can love God above all else and we can love our neighbor as we love ourselves.
Everything else is growth in grace and knowledge.
If they don't believe...and live the above, they are not Christians.

Secondarily, I have the impression Christians often concieve misimpression's of me when they learn I am an atheist and I figure no harm can come from correcting those if I can. If you scan back to the beginning of this thread, I came in asking questions, and not leading questions. Questions the answers to which I am seriously interested. But, as long as I’m here, I won’t lie or sugar coat my answers to the questions of others. Questions like, “Why don’t you believe in God?” and, “Why do you have problems with scripture.” I can’t MAKE you take me at my word. I can only hope you do. And try carefully to take you at yours. Unless you tell me otherwise, I assume you believe me when I say my children are “real” Jews. You say the only law you obey is loving God above all else, and loving your neighbors as yourself. OK. But the “blended fibers” laws call for the execution of Jews who break them. But it doesn’t specify that only Jews are required to perform that execution. Indeed, though he may have cleared the way for YOU to enjoy a ham sandwich, Jesus himself explicitly says his purpose is the FULFILLMENT of the law, excepting no “jot or tittle.”

Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law.
Instead of keeping our garments pure we keep our souls pure. We remain apart from the defiled and unclean, spiritually.

So which is it? If we ever cross paths in person , should I worry more about the certainty you will stone my children? Or about you suffering damnation for flouting the law? Or should I simply trust that you see the moral wisdom of not stoning my children despite what scripture says about their poly/cotton blend LEGO Star Wars tee shirts?

Neither.
In the new testament the "law" is to love God above all else, and our neighbor as we love ourselves.
I can't see a down side to believing that.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

...In the new testament the "law" is to love God above all else, and our neighbor as we love ourselves.
I can't see a down side to believing that.

Er... ok.

I can find scripture saying that is SOME of what the NT says. But that doesn’t explain why the Bible doesn’t just say, “Love God and everyone else.” Seems an awful long book if that’s the only or most important message. Having said all that, if you had to choose just one, would you prefer I believe in God? Or obey scripture? And now, I guess, I’ll add a third layer. In your opinion, is all I have to do is love God? And love others as much as I love myself? And, what if I don’t love myself very much?

 

[Hekuran]

But that doesn’t explain why the Bible doesn’t just say, “Love God and everyone else.” Seems an awful long book if that’s the only or most important message.

I think you are playing dumb a little here? You've read the Bible carefully yourself. What's your own understanding of the central message of the Bible?

 

[Kirby D. P.]

I think you are playing dumb a little here? You've read the Bible carefully yourself. What's your own understanding of the central message of the Bible?

Not playing dumb at all. I have always understood the Bible to be very complex, multifaceted, and to recommend guidance on a vast range of matters nettling all humans. I’ve never thought till now what THE central theme is. But, now you ask, I take it to be an account of God’s creation, his relationship with that creation, and what the ultimate trajectory and purpose of that creation is, especially as it relates to the role of humans in it all. Sort of a liturgical, religious “alpha to omega” documentation of the world. This is not to say I agree or disagree with any part of it. Just the function I think it is meant to perform.

I do read the Bible on a regular basis. BIG fan (in a literary sense) of Job. Also tantalized and engrossed by enigmatic passages like the tale of the Levite and his concubine in Judges 19-21. It perplexes me that people like KingJ INSIST that Biblical-era Hebrews were humane to their slaves when the Levite in the tale is in no way judged or punished for locking his own GIRLFRIEND out of doors overnight that she is gang raped by strangers unto death.

At Pease is the one who declared the bare-bones doctrine of “ God most, others as much as you you.” If that’s not what At Peace meant, I don’t know why it was said.

 

[Hekuran]

Not playing dumb at all. I have always understood the Bible to be very complex, multifaceted, and to recommend guidance on a vast range of matters nettling all humans. I’ve never thought till now what THE central theme is. But, now you ask, I take it to be an account of God’s creation, his relationship with that creation, and what the ultimate trajectory and purpose of that creation is, especially as it relates to the role of humans in it all. Sort of a liturgical, religious “alpha to omega” documentation of the world. This is not to say I agree or disagree with any part of it. Just the function I think it is meant to perform.

I do read the Bible on a regular basis. BIG fan (in a literary sense) of Job. Also tantalized and engrossed by enigmatic passages like the tale of the Levite and his concubine in Judges 19-21. It perplexes me that people like KingJ INSIST that Biblical-era Hebrews were humane to their slaves when the Levite in the tale is in no way judged or punished for locking his own GIRLFRIEND out of doors overnight that she is gang raped by strangers unto death.

At Pease is the one who declared the bare-bones doctrine of “ God most, others as much as you you.” If that’s not what At Peace meant, I don’t know why it was said.

Thanks. If I were pushed to give a simple answer to the complex question, what is the core theme of the Bible, I'd answer in much the same way. It's a story of redemption: how God in his love and grace is reconciling his creation with himself.

I know you are not a believer, but I frequently find myself overwhelmed by the scope and sweep of this story, not to mention that I have a small part to play in it.

Another thing I really appreciate is that it is not an airbrushed, cleaned up story. All the darkest elements in human nature, all the most perplexing questions are faced, and it looks reality square on. Job does that, the horrific passage from Numbers does too.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Thanks. If I were pushed to give a simple answer to the complex question, what is the core theme of the Bible, I'd answer in much the same way. It's a story of redemption: how God in his love and grace is reconciling his creation with himself.

I know you are not a believer, but I frequently find myself overwhelmed by the scope and sweep of this story, not to mention that I have a small part to play in it.

Another thing I really appreciate is that it is not an airbrushed, cleaned up story. All the darkest elements in human nature, all the most perplexing questions are faced, and it looks reality square on. Job does that, the horrific passage from Numbers does too.

Aye.

 

[At Peace]

Er... ok.

I can find scripture saying that is SOME of what the NT says. But that doesn’t explain why the Bible doesn’t just say, “Love God and everyone else.

You must have missed Matt 22:37-40.

Seems an awful long book if that’s the only or most important message.

I guess God knew it would require some to see the same point from several perspectives.
From the Pharisee's perspective.
From the lame man's perspective.
From the guy given sight's perspective.
From an apostle's perspective.
From a doctor's perspective.
From a prophet's perspective.
From an adulterer's perspective.
From a leper's perspective.
From a man raised from the dead's perspective. etc.

Having said all that, if you had to choose just one, would you prefer I believe in God? Or obey scripture? And now, I guess, I’ll add a third layer. In your opinion, is all I have to do is love God? And love others as much as I love myself?

Yes.
You can't do one without the others.

And, what if I don’t love myself very much?

Start loving God and your neighbor and that will change.
How can you not love yourself after buying someone lunch?
Or working a shift at a food bank?
Or volunteering at a hospital?
Or praying for an ex-enemy?

 

[Kirby D. P.]

...How can you not love yourself after buying someone lunch?
Or working a shift at a food bank?
Or volunteering at a hospital?
Or praying for an ex-enemy?

I believe a few days ago I mentioned a list of predecessors to Jesus in formulation of the Golden Rule. Of them I’ll commend you to check out the parable of Hillel and the gentile - my favorite version. Queer, to the best of my recollection, Jesus’ is the only version the requires love of God above all else.

As for the compassionate activities you enumerate, asking how someone CAN’T love themselves after engaging in such humanitarian activity, I would only answer: “They CAN. So what?”

Quite coincidentally, the other day, on my way back to my hotel from the restaurant where I mentioned I was eating, I was approached by a homeless woman. Among other things (I swear I’m not making this up — I didn’t mention it at the time because it would have seemed too pat and We weren’t speaking precisely on this facet of the topic) she said, “If you believe in God, will you pray form me? I’m homeless and I have 120 stitches in my side because the only place I know where I can go is the home of the man who beats me like that.” Her EXACT words, to the best of my recollection. They struck me because it’s the only time I can recall when a beggar asked ME if I believe in God. Coincidence?!

I told her that I did not believe in God, but that I WOULD pray for her, and that I WOULD mean it. And I apologized if my lack of belief detracted from my prayer’s effectiveness.

She also asked for what money I could afford and I gave it. When I got back to my room, I prayed TO GOD for her to find peace and security. I experienced no reason to love myself for it. Indeed, I upbraided myself for not figuring out some way, instead of prayer, to do something that would actually rescue this woman from her desperate situation. And - as I said, I wouldn’t be honest if I sugar coated my thoughts - I cursed God, if he is at all better and more powerful than I, for failing to do the same.

Except for the 2-3 hour reprieve from hunger my alms gave her, and maybe some momentary flutter of self esteem to meet someone who actually listened to her instead of ignoring this woman, her life was improved in no way whatsoever from our chance meeting. If it mattered to me anymore (and it really doesn’t) all I might have gained is yet another data point that either God does not exist or he is a moral monster.

How much further do you think this line of conversation is worth pursuing?

 

[At Peace]

I believe a few days ago I mentioned a list of predecessors to Jesus in formulation of the Golden Rule.... Jesus’ is the only version the requires love of God above all else.

Requires?
Loving God above all else is the natural reaction to His grace and mercy.

As for the compassionate activities you enumerate, asking how someone CAN’T love themselves after engaging in such humanitarian activity, I would only answer: “They CAN. So what?”

You lamented (?) your lack of love for yourself. (post #86)
Just because you don't like the "cure" doesn't mean it isn't correct.

Quite coincidentally, the other day, on my way back to my hotel from the restaurant where I mentioned I was eating, I was approached by a homeless woman. Among other things (I swear I’m not making this up — I didn’t mention it at the time because it would have seemed too pat and We weren’t speaking precisely on this facet of the topic) she said, “If you believe in God, will you pray form me? I’m homeless and I have 120 stitches in my side because the only place I know where I can go is the home of the man who beats me like that.” Her EXACT words, to the best of my recollection. They struck me because it’s the only time I can recall when a beggar asked ME if I believe in God. Coincidence?!
I told her that I did not believe in God, but that I WOULD pray for her, and that I WOULD mean it. And I apologized if my lack of belief detracted from my prayer’s effectiveness.
She also asked for what money I could afford and I gave it. When I got back to my room, I prayed TO GOD for her to find peace and security. I experienced no reason to love myself for it. Indeed, I upbraided myself for not figuring out some way, instead of prayer, to do something that would actually rescue this woman from her desperate situation. And - as I said, I wouldn’t be honest if I sugar coated my thoughts - I cursed God, if he is at all better and more powerful than I, for failing to do the same.
Except for the 2-3 hour reprieve from hunger my alms gave her, and maybe some momentary flutter of self esteem to meet someone who actually listened to her instead of ignoring this woman, her life was improved in no way whatsoever from our chance meeting. If it mattered to me anymore (and it really doesn’t) all I might have gained is yet another data point that either God does not exist or he is a moral monster.
How much further do you think this line of conversation is worth pursuing?

Only a hypocrite prays to a God they don't believe in.

Ever gotten checked out for bi-polar issues?
I advise you do, before you hurt yourself or someone else.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Requires?
Loving God above all else is the natural reaction to His grace and mercy.


You lamented (?) your lack of love for yourself. (post #86)
Just because you don't like the "cure" doesn't mean it isn't correct.


Only a hypocrite prays to a God they don't believe in.

Ever gotten checked out for bi-polar issues?
I advise you do, before you hurt yourself or someone else.

I don’t think you’re reading me as closely as you think you are. I didn’t “lament” a lack of my own love for self. I asked: What if one doesn’t happen to love oneself? Also, I’ll admit that I can’t write much without occasionally cracking jokes, and when I do those jokes are usually funniest when they are self deprecating. But don’t mistake that for a genuine lack of any sense of self worth.

Also, I’ll ask you again to review some of my contribution to this thread and call your attention to my resort to ad hominem personal attacks: zero. When I have asked you questions, it had been because I genuinely want to know how you reconcile what appears to me to be illogical contradictions, such has your insistence that scripture is only and always good, yet I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t stone Jews who wear blended fibers, not even my children. (Side note: I still don't think you have clarified your position on this matter.)

You think it was hypocritical of me to pray on behalf of the homeless woman? I disagree with what seems to be your understanding of the word, “hypocrite.” See, I told her I would, because I thought she would consider it a kindness and, so far as I could tell, she was grateful for the sentiment. Once we parted ways, I was under no obligation to offer up any prayer on her behalf. She will never know. But I did it, and I did mean it, at least as much as anyone who hollers into a dark room even though there may be no one there. WHY did I do it? I had said I would. That’s reason enough for me. To me, telling her I would pray for her and failing to do so WOULD have been hypocritical. So, which is it? It can’t be hypocritical to both pray for her and NOT pray for her.

Anyway, back to my avoidance of insult or ad hominem attack hitherto,

Insinuating that I might suffer a bi-polar disorder IS an ad hominem attack. I ask you once, politely, to please refrain from this. And I don’t ask secretly hoping you’ll perversely take it as some sort of hurled gauntlet and that I secretly want to diver into any exchange of personal attacks.

If I misunderstand you or you would like to reconsider this unpleasant tack, I’ll take you at your word and move on.

Your wondering what I found unacceptable in scripture has led us to this rather chilly part of the conversation. But you haven’t asked me what I actually find admirable about the Bible. Would you have any interest in knowing what I think is its best, most meritorious and worthy verse?

 

[At Peace]

I don’t think you’re reading me as closely as you think you are. I didn’t “lament” a lack of my own love for self. I asked: What if one doesn’t happen to love oneself? Also, I’ll admit that I can’t write much without occasionally cracking jokes, and when I do those jokes are usually funniest when they are self deprecating. But don’t mistake that for a genuine lack of any sense of self worth.

Yeah, lament was my closest guess to your inference of not loving yourself.
Sadness was the only emotion I could dig up.

Also, I’ll ask you again to review some of my contribution to this thread and call your attention to my resort to ad hominem personal attacks: zero. When I have asked you questions, it had been because I genuinely want to know how you reconcile what appears to me to be illogical contradictions, such has your insistence that scripture is only and always good, yet I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t stone Jews who wear blended fibers, not even my children. (Side note: I still don't think you have clarified your position on this matter.)

Reconciliation isn't a factor for me to consider, as the things you find illogical were intended to keep the Jewish nation separate from those who by their actions manifested that they hated God.
God wanted(s) people to love each other, and by mixing with their neighbors, Israel ended up polluting itself.

You think it was hypocritical of me to pray on behalf of the homeless woman? I disagree with what seems to be your understanding of the word, “hypocrite.” See, I told her I would, because I thought she would consider it a kindness and, so far as I could tell, she was grateful for the sentiment. Once we parted ways, I was under no obligation to offer up any prayer on her behalf. She will never know. But I did it, and I did mean it, at least as much as anyone who hollers into a dark room even though there may be no one there. WHY did I do it? I had said I would. That’s reason enough for me. To me, telling her I would pray for her and failing to do so WOULD have been hypocritical. So, which is it? It can’t be hypocritical to both pray for her and NOT pray for her.

Filling the woman with false hope is the farthest thing from well intentioned mercy.
Why not just tell her to find someone else?
She did start by saying "If you believe in God..."

Anyway, back to my avoidance of insult or ad hominem attack hitherto,
Insinuating that I might suffer a bi-polar disorder IS an ad hominem attack. I ask you once, politely, to please refrain from this. And I don’t ask secretly hoping you’ll perversely take it as some sort of hurled gauntlet and that I secretly want to diver into any exchange of personal attacks.
If I misunderstand you or you would like to reconsider this unpleasant tack, I’ll take you at your word and move on.

My earnest intention was for you to seek mental counseling.
You label yourself a non-believer, but come to a Jesus Talk site.
Why?
If you have such a deprecating sense of humor, why do you consider my words an attack?

Your wondering what I found unacceptable in scripture has led us to this rather chilly part of the conversation. But you haven’t asked me what I actually find admirable about the Bible. Would you have any interest in knowing what I think is its best, most meritorious and worthy verse?

This is another example of your trying to walk on both sides of the fence.
You find a book unacceptable then infer there is part of it you like.
That is double-mindedness to me.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Yeah, lament was my closest guess to your inference of not loving yourself.
Sadness was the only emotion I could dig up.


Reconciliation isn't a factor for me to consider, as the things you find illogical were intended to keep the Jewish nation separate from those who by their actions manifested that they hated God.
God wanted(s) people to love each other, and by mixing with their neighbors, Israel ended up polluting itself.


Filling the woman with false hope is the farthest thing from well intentioned mercy.
Why not just tell her to find someone else?
She did start by saying "If you believe in God..."


My earnest intention was for you to seek mental counseling.
You label yourself a non-believer, but come to a Jesus Talk site.
Why?
If you have such a deprecating sense of humor, why do you consider my words an attack?


This is another example of your trying to walk on both sides of the fence.
You find a book unacceptable then infer there is part of it you like.
That is double-mindedness to me.

I promise I’m not being deliberately dense. But things aren’t clearing up for me.

Are my family stoneworthy because we break OT law? Or should we be spared because we’re Jews whose line was polluted ages ago. Part of me hopes the latter is your answer. I honestly think it would be hilariously funny. The same doctrine that condemns every human for the crime committed by two ancient ancestors spares humans for similarly antique transgressions of their ancestors. I’m off the hook BECAUSE my progenitors did evil. You have to admit that would be at least a little funny. Anyway, I’m glad you don’t experience any moral quandary over this, but I think now is the 4th time I ask this straightforward question and I still don’t know what your answer is.

What is the false hope I gave the woman? She asked for a specific form of assistance. I told her exactly what I could offer her. She accepted and I delivered. I think this is far more honest than ministers who preach that prayer will achieve X, Y or Z only to fail in that promise. Whatever all else, she definitely did NOT want me to tell her to “go find somebody else.” Do you ask why I didn’t as some rhetorical device on your part? I’m not getting it.

Finally, why on Earth is it impossible for me to find faults in the Bible but also consider certain parts worthy? Fox in Socks is not my favorite book (which is Moby ****), but I can easily pick out the part or parts I consider my favorite.

I’ve been making a genuine effort to answer your questions directly and honestly. I get the feeling you pose your questions predominantly as rhetorical devices intended to get me to realize that I am somehow badly mistaken in the subjects we are discussing. If that is the case, then it is natural to infer that you yourself think that is what I am trying to attempt in return. The only alternative I can conjure is these questions, the answers to which you don’t seem to have any actual interest in, are maneuvering on your part in some bid to evade having to say… something… though I can’t fathom what. I don’t believe in God. You do. I have no authoritative basis or logical lever to say “you’re doing it wrong.” At most, all I can do is offer my opinion, which, if you are correct in your belief, won’t matter in the least.

I’m willing to set aside discussion of the woman I met over the weekend. You say I was hypocritical because she asked me to offer a prayer on her behalf and I said I would and I did. As for myself, if you have made any prayer on her behalf, and you think this helped her in any way, to me THAT is hypocritical. Not the prayer. The conceit that you did something good for someone without even a scintilla of evidence to justify that conceit.

But I’m really not interested in lobbing rhetorical “zingers” at you and seeing the best you can do to respond in kind. I’ll close with two VERY straightforward YES or NO questions. If you reply to this, and the first two words are something OTHER than yes or no, I will catch your drift and won’t waste anymore bytes trying to engage you on a subject you seem loathe to discuss in any meaningful way. If you care to elaborate on those yeses or noes, or raise some other as yet unexamined subject, I’m happy to read what you have to say. And while I will probably read whatever you do transmit, if neither of the first two words are the clear communication I here politely ask, please don’t expect any further input on my part.

1. Do the members of my family deserve to be stoned to death because of what it says in the Bible?

2. Is it possible for me to find merit in any part of the Bible despite my extreme objections to certain other parts of the Bible?

 

[At Peace]

I promise I’m not being deliberately dense. But things aren’t clearing up for me.
Are my family stoneworthy because we break OT law? Or should we be spared because we’re Jews whose line was polluted ages ago. Part of me hopes the latter is your answer. I honestly think it would be hilariously funny. The same doctrine that condemns every human for the crime committed by two ancient ancestors spares humans for similarly antique transgressions of their ancestors. I’m off the hook BECAUSE my progenitors did evil. You have to admit that would be at least a little funny. Anyway, I’m glad you don’t experience any moral quandary over this, but I think now is the 4th time I ask this straightforward question and I still don’t know what your answer is.

If your family is living the OT law, they are indeed subject to all the parameters of it.

What is the false hope I gave the woman? She asked for a specific form of assistance. I told her exactly what I could offer her. She accepted and I delivered. I think this is far more honest than ministers who preach that prayer will achieve X, Y or Z only to fail in that promise. Whatever all else, she definitely did NOT want me to tell her to “go find somebody else.” Do you ask why I didn’t as some rhetorical device on your part? I’m not getting it.

As long as she understood that you were just imitating some whose prayers COULD have been of benefit to her, then the resulting false faith would have been hers.

Finally, why on Earth is it impossible for me to find faults in the Bible but also consider certain parts worthy? Fox in Socks is not my favorite book (which is Moby ****), but I can easily pick out the part or parts I consider my favorite.

As you don't believe in God, your deeming one part good and another part bad are moot points.
To you they are just ink and paper.
Why consider the bible at all?

I’ve been making a genuine effort to answer your questions directly and honestly. I get the feeling you pose your questions predominantly as rhetorical devices intended to get me to realize that I am somehow badly mistaken in the subjects we are discussing. If that is the case, then it is natural to infer that you yourself think that is what I am trying to attempt in return. The only alternative I can conjure is these questions, the answers to which you don’t seem to have any actual interest in, are maneuvering on your part in some bid to evade having to say… something… though I can’t fathom what. I don’t believe in God. You do. I have no authoritative basis or logical lever to say “you’re doing it wrong.” At most, all I can do is offer my opinion, which, if you are correct in your belief, won’t matter in the least.

All I can do is offer you the diametrically opposed POV of one who DOES believe, in God and the veracity of all the words of which you find only partially laudable.

I’m willing to set aside discussion of the woman I met over the weekend. You say I was hypocritical because she asked me to offer a prayer on her behalf and I said I would and I did. As for myself, if you have made any prayer on her behalf, and you think this helped her in any way, to me THAT is hypocritical. Not the prayer. The conceit that you did something good for someone without even a scintilla of evidence to justify that conceit.

Ah the joys of hypothetical scenarios!
Your prayer, or promise of one, was an empty effort that only left her in the same hell she was in before stumbling onto you.

But I’m really not interested in lobbing rhetorical “zingers” at you and seeing the best you can do to respond in kind. I’ll close with two VERY straightforward YES or NO questions. If you reply to this, and the first two words are something OTHER than yes or no, I will catch your drift and won’t waste anymore bytes trying to engage you on a subject you seem loathe to discuss in any meaningful way. If you care to elaborate on those yeses or noes, or raise some other as yet unexamined subject, I’m happy to read what you have to say. And while I will probably read whatever you do transmit, if neither of the first two words are the clear communication I here politely ask, please don’t expect any further input on my part.

1. Do the members of my family deserve to be stoned to death because of what it says in the Bible?

They do deserve to be stoned to death because of what God has ordained in the OT.

2. Is it possible for me to find merit in any part of the Bible despite my extreme objections to certain other parts of the Bible?

Probably not.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Only a hypocrite prays to a God they don't believe in.

My earnest intention was for you to seek mental counseling.
You label yourself a non-believer, but come to a Jesus Talk site.
Why?
If you have such a deprecating sense of humor, why do you consider my words an attack?

These type of comments are really not in order @At Peace

They have only been left on the thread because the context of the thread is inclusive of them.
You are not showing a loving Christian heart to someone who is seeking.

@Kirby D. P.

I do not believe you need counselling nor that you are a hypocrite.
I believe that you need the Lord and His salvation.

Keep questioning, keep searching.......for I know the truth will be revealed to you


Canst thou by searching find out God? Job 11:7

if.... thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find Him, if thou seek Him with all thy heart and with all thy soul Deut 4:29

For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life
John 3:16

 

[Chad]

Requires?
Loving God above all else is the natural reaction to His grace and mercy.


You lamented (?) your lack of love for yourself. (post #86)
Just because you don't like the "cure" doesn't mean it isn't correct.


Only a hypocrite prays to a God they don't believe in.

Ever gotten checked out for bi-polar issues?
I advise you do, before you hurt yourself or someone else.

Lose this tone and attitude or find another community to partake in.

 

[Christ4Ever]

These two heretical characteristics are:

1. I do not believe in the existence of any god. (BTW, I do not argue there isn’t, or cannot be, any such thing as a god. I have simply never been convinced in the existence of one.)

2. I do not find the edicts of God, as described in any Judeo-Christian scripture, to be moral, consistent, or just.

If you could convince me to reverse one, and only one, of these positions, which do you think would be more important for you to focus on?

Sigh....you cannot have heretical characteristics. Unless you profess Christianity as your foundation your questions would be heretical to what? To Atheism, Materialism, Agnosticism? If you mean to how "one of us" would state the questions if we happen to be heretical? You realize it would then only have value to us and not you on where we stand. Your how should I say it to be as kind as possible. By your lack of belief on your part, it would not allow you to be satisfied by the answers received.

Still, speaking to a non-believer that you are (Not Heretic ) Out of the two statements the important one you would need to have.....is well 1

"But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

Are you truly seeking Him/God Member Kirby D.P.? You never really have stated that you are, at least not in so many words, that I recall. That being the case. As you have previously stated in another thread. Even your friends don't understand this of you. Is it Obsession? Curiosity? Possibly a desire to widen your knowledge base which is sufficient in and of itself, so you can say "I Know"? Or could it even be an intellectual challenge for you to have a "mano a mano" so to speak against Christians? One of them? More than one? or something else entirely Member Kirby D.P.?

I do continue to pray for you. Now and again as I've said before.
For God must have had a reason for guiding you here against all common sense!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
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