Belief versus Piety

[At Peace]

These type of comments are really not in order @At Peace
They have only been left on the thread because the context of the thread is inclusive of them.

You are not showing a loving Christian heart to someone who is seeking.

If you really think he is seeking, why did it take you so long to join in?
I recognize a trouble maker and a fomenter of doubt.
I have provided everything he needs to get off the dark road, but he keeps clinging to the ways of destruction.

Perhaps your interjection will cause him to re-examine of his POV.
I hope so...in Jesus' name.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

If you really think he is seeking, why did it take you so long to join in?
I recognize a trouble maker and a fomenter of doubt.
I have provided everything he needs to get off the dark road, but he keeps clinging to the ways of destruction

Greetings @At Peace

Your post was reported, hence my coming to look at this thread.

You lack love and compassion brother.

A seeking, unsaved heart, not filled with the love of Jesus will not give the responses that we as Christians would like to hear.

Kirby is an atheist, he is lost.

Let us pray that his heart will be open to the truth.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

If your family is living the OT law, they are indeed subject to all the parameters of it.


As long as she understood that you were just imitating some whose prayers COULD have been of benefit to her, then the resulting false faith would have been hers.


As you don't believe in God, your deeming one part good and another part bad are moot points.
To you they are just ink and paper.
Why consider the bible at all?


All I can do is offer you the diametrically opposed POV of one who DOES believe, in God and the veracity of all the words of which you find only partially laudable.


Ah the joys of hypothetical scenarios!
Your prayer, or promise of one, was an empty effort that only left her in the same hell she was in before stumbling onto you.


They do deserve to be stoned to death because of what God has ordained in the OT.


Probably not.

.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Sigh....you cannot have heretical characteristics. Unless you profess Christianity as your foundation your questions would be heretical to what? To Atheism, Materialism, Agnosticism? If you mean to how "one of us" would state the questions if we happen to be heretical? You realize it would then only have value to us and not you on where we stand. Your how should I say it to be as kind as possible. By your lack of belief on your part, it would not allow you to be satisfied by the answers received.

Still, speaking to a non-believer that you are (Not Heretic ) Out of the two statements the important one you would need to have.....is well 1

"But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."

Are you truly seeking Him/God Member Kirby D.P.? You never really have stated that you are, at least not in so many words, that I recall. That being the case. As you have previously stated in another thread. Even your friends don't understand this of you. Is it Obsession? Curiosity? Possibly a desire to widen your knowledge base which is sufficient in and of itself, so you can say "I Know"? Or could it even be an intellectual challenge for you to have a "mano a mano" so to speak against Christians? One of them? More than one? or something else entirely Member Kirby D.P.?

I do continue to pray for you. Now and again as I've said before.
For God must have had a reason for guiding you here against all common sense!

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

Hi, Nick. Thank you for the considered answer to my question. And I definitely see the sense of it.

Yeah, I admit I made fairly slipshod use of the word “heretical.”

It is altogether possible I am not fully aware of my own motives in participating here. My motives, so far as I am consciously aware, are pretty straightforward. First, I am very curious, even obsessively curious, about the nature of existence. I have ready access to all the natural science media I want. I have studied authoritative theological material enough to decide (purely my own opinion) that to the extent religions are intellectually and morally consistent, internally speaking, they are also consistent with each other. And, to the extent each is different and unique, too often they are internally INconsistent and sometimes dangerously so (the whole idea that religion can get good people to do bad things).

As I have mentioned, my background is Jewish, and I know some pretty nifty things about Judaism that are decidedly NOT unhealthy. But Christianity offers some doctrine I find absolutely beneficial (for humans), revolutionary and unique.

Here I am speaking primarily of the tenets of forgiveness and redemption. It is no accident that Jewish culture is stereotyped as fraught with guilt. Though I admit, Catholicism is notorious for its own variation on that theme. And, while I insist that ISIS is no more than a tiny aberrant sect of Islam, they do suggest that forgiveness is not really at the heart of Islam’s creed.

Whether I believe or not, as a moral being I still must structure some ethical code by which to live, or else wander rudderless among my fellow humans.

And, as ever, a have to admit there is always a chance that God does exist. And IF God exists in some form even vaguely like the description of him promulgated by one religion or another, it would be the single most important fact of reality and something I would definitely want to understand as deeply as possible.

I don’t often come away from Talk Jesus with some new fundamental understanding, but I can depend on finding fellows here who are willing to discuss these matters. To be honest, I have more-or-less unintentionally surrounded myself with simply sterling, lovely people whose worldview is compatible with my own, but who don’t have the inclination or see a pressing need to do the deep dives available here.

And I do appreciate the sentiment of your prayers. So thank you for that, as well.

 

[At Peace]

Greetings @At Peace
Your post was reported, hence my coming to look at this thread.
You lack love and compassion brother.
A seeking, unsaved heart, not filled with the love of Jesus will not give the responses that we as Christians would like to hear.
Kirby is an atheist, he is lost.
Let us pray that his heart will be open to the truth.

I thank you for not only caring about Kirby but about me too.
I join you in prayer that his heart will some day be open to the truth.

 

[Christ4Ever]

And, to the extent each is different and unique, too often they are internally INconsistent and sometimes dangerously so (the whole idea that religion can get good people to do bad things)

That is truly the case with humanity in general. Religion or Secularism (Materialism included) does not change humanity, it only disguises man's true nature. In Christianity the actualization is not self induced, but initiated by external forces not controlled by the individual, which originates in the Godhead. Born Again, Renewing of ones mind, a new Creation are but concepts that in and of themselves mean very little, while in the materialization (a word I choose just for you ) of change in ones life means everything. Assuredly not to one lacking said experience, but still an event in the life of those who have.

Whether I believe or not, as a moral being I still must structure some ethical code by which to live, or else wander rudderless among my fellow humans

Interesting. Doing it that way, I can only believe that the end result will give you an ethical code which is self-serving. For man in his unchanged state can't help but seek and find self-satisfying items for such a code which are based on a personal preference instead of one that originates from a change that seeks the Love of God & Neighbor as it's foundation.

And, as ever, a have to admit there is always a chance that God does exist. And IF God exists in some form even vaguely like the description of him promulgated by one religion or another, it would be the single most important fact of reality and something I would definitely want to understand as deeply as possible.

Would you now? Really? I'm sorry, by all accounts in what you have posted so far in Talk Jesus. That is not really the case. Even in this statement you place yourself "outside" the concept of God, so will never be able to truly know God due to the criteria you've constructed for determining acceptability by you of His existence. God has set the standard which I'll quote again "But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." and one by all accounts you seem unable or unwilling to do. You might even say from all your words that it would be illogical for you to do so!

Your quandary is that that you "must believe that he is". Unless, you are literally willing to cross over so to speak, you cannot be shown but by words, which is no evidence at all. Even a miracle would be explained away, though the wall you have created would be chipped at. Yet, this wall will never come down until you would allow belief in His existence and he is a "rewarder", meaning that His existence would be confirmed to you. By the way. Could you think of this confirmation in getting to know Him as being anything but a reward of great value?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><

 

[B-A-C]

And, as ever, a have to admit there is always a chance that God does exist. And IF God exists in some form even vaguely like the description of him promulgated by one religion or another, it would be the single most important fact of reality and something I would definitely want to understand as deeply as possible.

I am reminded of a movie called Arthur that was out in the early 80's. It was about an alcoholic millionaire. He had to straighten his life out or his family was
going to take his money away.

There is a scene in the movie where he is alone on a yacht about 5 miles from the shore. The yacht blows up and throws him in the water (unharmed somehow)
and he has to swim to the beach. As he is swimming to the beach, he makes a lot of little promises.... God, if I can just make it to the shore, I'll dedicate my life to you.
He swims a mile or two more... he is really tired now... God if you just help me make it through this, I'll give up drinking and join a monastery. Finally he is about a
hundred yards from the shore, but he is so exhausted. God... just help me to the shore and I'll do anything for you. Anything at all.

After he makes it to the shore, he lies there exhausted for a few minutes, then he looks skyward and says... "God I sure am glad I didn't need you after-all!"

For some reason most of the audience laughs at this point. I think it's this way all of the time for all of us. I don't know how old you are, but as you get older and
look back at your life... How did I make through this persons death. How did I make it through that divorce? How did I survive that motorcycle accident? How did
I come up with the finances to pay this debt off on time? How did that cancer disappear? We've all had hard times. I suspect you've had a few yourself.
I suppose for me... it might be possible to explain away some of these things as random chance, coincidence, medical help... but certainly not all of them are
really explainable. For me.. as a believer.. it's hard to look back and NOT see God in the hard places. Maybe I'll share a testimony about this later.

But if we're not looking Him... then everything that happens.... is explainable one way or another... if we don't believe in Him.. we will never see Him even
though He is everywhere... all around us in everything we do... and for some of us... everything we do.

My wife had stage 4 cancer.. (true story) it's gone now. Coincidence? That sounds like Christian mumbo-jumbo. Maybe but it's a documented medical fact she had the cancer
and it's gone now. No chemo, no radiation. Explain it away if you want to.

====================================================================================================================================

Here is my story. I've never told this story on TalkJesus before. But maybe it's time. Maybe you're the reason?

Friday the 13th (no I'm not superstitious) 2013. 9/13/13 I was riding a motorcycle to work. I girl driving a pickup truck and texting ran over me.
Literally. Broke my motorcycle in half. Broke 33 bones. Both arms, both legs (one in two places) , shattered my left wrist (I am left handed) broke my pelvis, my sternum
and six ribs. I had internal bleeding and my spleen was ruptured. My bladder also had heavy internal bleeding. I was unconscious for 10 days.

Let me back up a little bit. 5 years earlier my wife left me while I was in the hospital. 3 years earlier my (current) wife lost her husband to MS.
She is wondering if she is going to lose her second husband in less than 3 years.

I finally regain consciousness... but I am heavily drugged and having
paranoia and hallucinations. When I was hit I lost 2 liters of blood (I only have about 6 total) It just so happened by coincidence that an EMT was two cars behind me.
He just got off duty and saw the accident. He patched me up before the (helicopter) ambulance arrived.

I don't know what kind of city you live in... but where I live it takes about an hour to get to the nearest trauma hospital. At 7:30am during rush hour, that can be two hours.
It just so happens that a care flight helicopter was returning from a run. They also saw the accident. I was at the hospital in less than 12 minutes. Another "coincidence".

I miss my birthday that year. It was the second day I was unconscious. Both my wife came to the hospital everyday and prayed for me. many people from my church came.
I didn't even know it (I was unconscious)

I spent another 5 days in ICU. I was in the hospital over two months. I didn't walk for 5 months. I required about a dozen surgeries. But and wife learned some things
about each other... and about God. I didn't die... and she didn't leave me. I guess God knew what we needed, or maybe it was just coincidence?

I was moved to general recovery. I was there 6 weeks. I couldn't even feed myself. Casts on both arms past my fingers. My wife fed me everyday. I couldn't even use
the restroom by myself. Talk about true love. There are somethings a spouse will for you that no one else ever will. The nurses took over at night, but it wasn't the same.

I got to know some of the nurses pretty good. 3 got saved while I was in the hospital. Two others were asking to pray for their kids to get jobs and their marriages.
The one who's son needed a job... got one. The one who's marriage was in trouble reconciled with the husband. I suppose they were coincidences also?
People from the church continued to come visit me in the hospital. I told them I would be back at church one day.

When they took me home... I still couldn't walk. I still couldn't feed myself. I hadn't stood up in over two months. They've done studies on college athletes. They make them lie
in a bed for two months, and then get up to walk. But they can't, the muscles atrophy. It's the same with astronauts in space. The usually spend a day or two in a pool
to get used to the weight.

I had a wheelchair. But even getting into that was an adventure. I had something called a slider board. I was supposed to put one end on the bed, and the other end
on the wheel chair and "slide" across the board to the other end. Easier said than done when you have no functioning arms or legs. Thank God for a helpful wife.

On the day I finally stood up for the first time... It was the hardest thing I ever did. I had to hold onto a dresser to try to pull myself up.
I strained very hard.. but I finally stood up.... for about 10 seconds. I was exhausted and sat back down. I did this a couple of times a day for about a week until got where i could
stand for about 5 minutes. Then I got a walker and I had to learn how to walk all over again. I was in my mid 50's. Not a spring chicken anymore.

About this time my insurance quit covering physical therapy. I was on my own. ...except..... two of the physical therapists kept coming for free. (they said they had never done that before in 20 years). They weren't getting paid. But they made sure I could at least get around with my walker. ... another coincidence I suppose....

I finally got a couple of casts off. I could feed myself. I could even "butt-scoot" up the stairs now. I had been living in one room for 6 weeks now (not to mention the hospital
room before for 8 weeks). I finally took my first shower. The first in 3 and half months. It was so wonderful I cried through the first five minutes.
My first Sunday back at church, we were a little late. The worship singing had already started. That was OK with me... I was hoping to "sneak in" the back. ... bad plan...

The pastor walks up on the platform. stops the worship service and announces I am here. The whole church turns around and starts clapping. People are crying, coming up to me
and hugging me, shaking my hand (the good one) and telling me they have been praying for me. (I know they aren't lying). Talk about feeling loved. ... maybe another coincidence?

Did I mention my hospital bill was 1.7 million US dollars at this time? My credit was going downhill in a hurry.
My "catastrophic insurance" coverage was used up the first week I was in the hospital. So much for Obamacare.

I finally start visiting a pediatric doctor for my broken legs and broken arms. They tell me that a bone usually will heal in 6 to 8 weeks. If you break two bones,
it takes longer because the nutrients now have to go to two different places. If you break 33 bones... it takes... well... a long time. I might not walk for 4 more months.
Two days before Christmas I walk into the doctors office with no cane, no walker and no help from my wife. (she is watching). The doctors call all of his interns in
and makes me walk back and forth in front of them. He says I don't have to come back... another coincidence?

I am out of time... to be continued.

 

[B-A-C]

I have a few more minutes after all....

In the state I live in... I could sue the girl who hit me and her parents... but... I didn't.
If the county sues them... I can get something called "crime victims compensation". But there has to be some county employees that witnessed the event in order to qualify.
Did I mention the off duty EMT a couple of cars behind me? Or helicopter care flight pilot who was my accident. Just coincidence I guess...

Anyway, the county tries the girl and she is found guilty. She has to pay this compensation fee. The hospital has to take this money as part of the 1.7 million dollars I
owe them and eat the rest. Maybe not fair to the hospital, but it was good for me. I feel I made 1.7 millions that day. (I didn't actually get to see any of it, or spend any of it).
... just another coincidence I guess....

Now people ask me sometimes... where was God in all of this? How could a loving God allow this to happen?
I look back at all the "coincidences" in this testimony....
the EMT, the helicopter, the physical therapists, the nurses that got saved, my wife who didn't
leave me. the church that visited me, the 1.7 million I didn't have to pay. The bones that healed so quickly...

and I ask you.... where was God in all this?



I did eventually get a little insurance money out of this. Not a lot, they did pay off the motorcycle and few other bills. But it wasn't the hundreds of thousands
you hear about sometimes. But even a little is better than none. And it's great not have 1.7 million hanging over your head.

I am back having a "normal" life now. Whatever that means. But most people don't even know I was in an accident. I limp a little sometimes.
The other day we went to buy some vinyl flooring for our kitchen, and the sales lady asked why I limped. When my wife told her the story... she said...
No I saw that accident. That guy is dead!

... welll not just yet anyway

 

[Christ4Ever]

@B-A-C

ALLELUIA, ALLELUIA, ALLELUIA MY BROTHER!

If I didn't love you before, how could I not love you now!

If I didn't love God before now, how could I not love Him now, for having looked after you so that we might enjoy your fellowship!

Thank-you for sharing this, which you have held close to you heart.

Truly with the Love of Christ Jesus Dear Brother.
Nick
<><

 

[KingJ]

Now people ask me sometimes... where was God in all of this? How could a loving God allow this to happen? I look back at all the "coincidences" in this testimony.... the EMT, the helicopter, the physical therapists, the nurses that got saved, my wife who didn't leave me. the church that visited me, the 1.7 million I didn't have to pay. The bones that healed so quickly...

and I ask you.... where was God in all this?

Thanks for sharing BAC.

I have had a few motorbike accidents, but none like this.

This is crystal clear evidence that God is with us in our suffering and that He does do miracles according to His greater knowledge and will.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Praise the Lord!

Thank you so much for sharing that @B-A-C

That is such a wonderful testimony of the Lord's amazing grace and His hand in your life.

Not coincidence of that I am certain.

Alleluia Praise the Lord!


And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose.
Romans 8:28

Ps; Could you perhaps share this in the testimony section too.....not everyone will see it here

 

[Br. Bear]

And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it. Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there. The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.
And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said,

Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
Number 13:27-30

Greetings Mr Kirby,

Mr. Bear here... anticipation or disgust, disdain or delight? Your choice. I don't really care too much either way.

I see B-A-C has shared a little ray of light from his own personal life and that some have responded. Going to your OP and the title of this thread, would you say it was belief or piety that these members suffer from? Perhaps it was not miraculous enough; perhaps it was. Perhaps if bone was poking out of his arm one moment then the next it wasn't would be a little more convincing? I have seen that and testify that it happened. So, is that belief or piety?

I have also seen people who one minute had what one might call faith as believers in all things Christian and something went wrong and they spat the dummy and gave up on God and Jesus, His beloved Son, Who not only gave Himself a ransom for our sin, but died a cruel and shameful death on our behalf in doing so. (was that belief or piety on His part?) They then became enemies against God doing everything they can to discredit Him if it were possible. B-A-C could have taken that road. Perhaps he is too pious to do such a thing? Or maybe he KNOWS something that your heart yearns for?

I notice also that fellow Member, At Peace has been engaged with you in this multi page thread of yours from the first post and has done so in love. Given all you say about yourself, do you think coming to his defense when he is chastised for using the term 'hypocrite' would be appropriate? Or are you boneless as well? I am convinced that you know and knew exactly where he was coming from and that he was not insulting you or being derogatory or uncaring towards you (unless i am totally mistaken by your words written here over the years)
Perhaps you are still getting to that? (writing in his defense) You don't have to if you don't want to and/or don't see any reason for it.
You began the thread as seasoned member here and knowing that some may speak honestly to you and maybe you even hope(d) that some would? At Peace has been doing so and in prompting you to see that your actions are double minded at best is surely of no big deal to someone as keen to discuss everything about my God and Saviour as you are with little or no fear or love towards Him. so why be bothered by a little man like At Peace (if you are?) You say you are OK with being condemned by God if that is what happens but a fellow member here who you have happily been in long discussion with says a few words and it is too much to handle? I don't mind if you want to correct me about this but I have not seen any decency from you in regards to this and so say so.
Tell me is that due to your piety or your belief or both or none?

It's OK, I can say all these things because we can discuss the LORD Who suffered that you and I might be free and receive His uncountable and immeasurable love and grace as if He is some disposable rag or some joke to mock and criticize. Let's be fair, everyone, (be it due to piety of belief) unless being fair is not acceptable in anyones agenda and life, that is?

Mr Kirby, I will now get to what i came here for.... (but before I do, I also want to point out that fellow Member Curtis also engaged with you and said some very straightforward things. Yet, pages later we still have this entertaining little discussion going on at your pleasure. )(I am not sure where you come from and if you are a soft little man with a tender little mind that crumbles and cries if anyone says anything nasty to you or whether you might be one who can take a straight word and do so as a man or, someone in between. A cunning mind will sniff out a good answer to that but I do not want to think that you are simply cunning)(forgive me please for i am not the most articulate chap in town nor the most tactful or clever with words, so if anything i have written so far and following upsets you, please forgive me and please let me know)(this thread is, after all, about you and you inviting others to discuss your way of reasoning etc, so surely my few words here are welcome enough as part of that whole wandering journey?) So back to where i was going...

I do not know if this is 100% or not and am happy to be shot to pieces on it but, way back in your Jewish ancestry the people were oppressed and their cries came before God and He sent two brothers to perform His work of setting those people free. It was no real joy to the brothers (they had a lot more patience than anyone i have ever known)
Shortly after they left Egypt (in the scale of time between then and now) God gave them a sort of 'wedding' 'contract' as His chosen people who He saw and considered as if the were one body, much like a wife sort of thing.
These people had had it hard for all their life and that is all they knew.
God gives them a present written with His own hand on stone. Some call it the ten commandments which is a bit corny if you ask me but it's probably best you don't.
In those written words we see things like do not commit adultery. Do not steal and of course have a day off every seven days, be loyal to Me... etc. (you know the rest)
Back in Egypt, the Egyptians could come and take your woman for what ever reason they wanted and that was the end of it. They could also take whatever they wanted and cheat and set the Jews up, etc. The Children of Israel, to whom God has promised blessings, had to work seven days a week, no rest.
So these written contract points on stone basically said things like you can have a day off, don't do the dirty on each other and take notice of Me, I love you. No more serving strange and weird and many gods and idols. You have Me now to look to and find all your needs... and, I promise you we have a beautiful place to live, and we ought to get there soon.... follow Me and listen to what i tell you. Trust Me, I love you.

Now, you have to remember that those oppressed people knew only the oppression they lived under. When free to live without that oppression, what moral or pious model did they have to go by? They knew that if you want a woman, she's yours. If you want to get something from someone, take it or if you have to, set them up with lies and get it that way, or simply kill them. That's how it was done and so that was the way to do things, once you have the choice (no longer oppressed). So, can you see that the marriage contract was actually a safe guard for them. Before they had all these Egyptian gods and idols to look at and according to the record given of the magicians and the like, had some funky sort of powers, too, and could equal the miracles that were done that Moses had to do in the process of setting them free. But now, hey, there is only Me, One God, and i love you. I have been with you all the way and given you shelter and fresh nourishing food every day. I am interested in your welfare.

Don't commit adultery, that's not the way to live,. Don't steal and murder, that's not the way to live, take a day off and let's get together and relax and enjoy all this world I have made for people to enjoy, let's enjoy each other, too!

Those commandments of contract became known as the Law. What everyone forgot was they were the law of love, of non-oppression, of freedom and liberty.
The Children of Israel had no other idea about how to live and be their own people with their own 'rules' and boundaries. (that's a good word i could have used earlier in this post! boundaries).
Later on, they strayed and often in such a way as to adopt different boundaries and that would only result in oppression again of some manifestation or another, so was God too harsh to say, No, annihilate them all, spare none for they will corrupt you?
I almost swore then... but without doing so... **** let's let mice and rats and pigs take over the house and life will go on sweetly and the smell... oh so.... yuck!
So, are people only mere rats and mice and pigs? No, usually we (people ) are much worse. Mice and rats and pigs don't waste anything, people do... and you, Sir, are wasting an opportunity to accept all that God has for you in His love for you as if it's not good enough and as if He hasn't put before you enough of His love. You join in with all the other mockers and proud and reject His love, preferring your own wisdom and leaning on and in your own self-oppressive mire.
Your choice.

Perhaps that is belief for you or maybe piousness?

The adults never entered in to the place God had for them. They did not believe Him even though they had every reason to believe Him. Are you going to be as stupid and rebellious, Kirby D. P. or are you afraid of the giants, too?


Bless you ....><>

ps... by the way, it has been over two years now that hardly a day has passed that i have not prayed for you. Is that belief or piety?
and... PPS... you don't have to respond to me. I may not get around to reading it if you do. Nothing personal but I did not write all this for my benefit or to engage in chit chat with you... I would much prefer you think about it and throw down your guns, let down your defenses and let God in. He is knocking .... you know the rest....

the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God and the wisdom of God is foolish to the world, you'd be a fool to not trust Him.

Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:28

 

[Kirby D. P.]

And they told him, and said, We came unto the land whither thou sentest us, and surely it floweth with milk and honey; and this is the fruit of it. Nevertheless the people be strong that dwell in the land, and the cities are walled, and very great: and moreover we saw the children of Anak there. The Amalekites dwell in the land of the south: and the Hittites, and the Jebusites, and the Amorites, dwell in the mountains: and the Canaanites dwell by the sea, and by the coast of Jordan.
And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said,

Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it.
Number 13:27-30

Greetings Mr Kirby,

Mr. Bear here... anticipation or disgust, disdain or delight? Your choice. I don't really care too much either way.

I see B-A-C has shared a little ray of light from his own personal life and that some have responded. Going to your OP and the title of this thread, would you say it was belief or piety that these members suffer from? Perhaps it was not miraculous enough; perhaps it was. Perhaps if bone was poking out of his arm one moment then the next it wasn't would be a little more convincing? I have seen that and testify that it happened. So, is that belief or piety?

I have also seen people who one minute had what one might call faith as believers in all things Christian and something went wrong and they spat the dummy and gave up on God and Jesus, His beloved Son, Who not only gave Himself a ransom for our sin, but died a cruel and shameful death on our behalf in doing so. (was that belief or piety on His part?) They then became enemies against God doing everything they can to discredit Him if it were possible. B-A-C could have taken that road. Perhaps he is too pious to do such a thing? Or maybe he KNOWS something that your heart yearns for?

I notice also that fellow Member, At Peace has been engaged with you in this multi page thread of yours from the first post and has done so in love. Given all you say about yourself, do you think coming to his defense when he is chastised for using the term 'hypocrite' would be appropriate? Or are you boneless as well? I am convinced that you know and knew exactly where he was coming from and that he was not insulting you or being derogatory or uncaring towards you (unless i am totally mistaken by your words written here over the years)
Perhaps you are still getting to that? (writing in his defense) You don't have to if you don't want to and/or don't see any reason for it.
You began the thread as seasoned member here and knowing that some may speak honestly to you and maybe you even hope(d) that some would? At Peace has been doing so and in prompting you to see that your actions are double minded at best is surely of no big deal to someone as keen to discuss everything about my God and Saviour as you are with little or no fear or love towards Him. so why be bothered by a little man like At Peace (if you are?) You say you are OK with being condemned by God if that is what happens but a fellow member here who you have happily been in long discussion with says a few words and it is too much to handle? I don't mind if you want to correct me about this but I have not seen any decency from you in regards to this and so say so.
Tell me is that due to your piety or your belief or both or none?

It's OK, I can say all these things because we can discuss the LORD Who suffered that you and I might be free and receive His uncountable and immeasurable love and grace as if He is some disposable rag or some joke to mock and criticize. Let's be fair, everyone, (be it due to piety of belief) unless being fair is not acceptable in anyones agenda and life, that is?

Mr Kirby, I will now get to what i came here for.... (but before I do, I also want to point out that fellow Member Curtis also engaged with you and said some very straightforward things. Yet, pages later we still have this entertaining little discussion going on at your pleasure. )(I am not sure where you come from and if you are a soft little man with a tender little mind that crumbles and cries if anyone says anything nasty to you or whether you might be one who can take a straight word and do so as a man or, someone in between. A cunning mind will sniff out a good answer to that but I do not want to think that you are simply cunning)(forgive me please for i am not the most articulate chap in town nor the most tactful or clever with words, so if anything i have written so far and following upsets you, please forgive me and please let me know)(this thread is, after all, about you and you inviting others to discuss your way of reasoning etc, so surely my few words here are welcome enough as part of that whole wandering journey?) So back to where i was going...

I do not know if this is 100% or not and am happy to be shot to pieces on it but, way back in your Jewish ancestry the people were oppressed and their cries came before God and He sent two brothers to perform His work of setting those people free. It was no real joy to the brothers (they had a lot more patience than anyone i have ever known)
Shortly after they left Egypt (in the scale of time between then and now) God gave them a sort of 'wedding' 'contract' as His chosen people who He saw and considered as if the were one body, much like a wife sort of thing.
These people had had it hard for all their life and that is all they knew.
God gives them a present written with His own hand on stone. Some call it the ten commandments which is a bit corny if you ask me but it's probably best you don't.
In those written words we see things like do not commit adultery. Do not steal and of course have a day off every seven days, be loyal to Me... etc. (you know the rest)
Back in Egypt, the Egyptians could come and take your woman for what ever reason they wanted and that was the end of it. They could also take whatever they wanted and cheat and set the Jews up, etc. The Children of Israel, to whom God has promised blessings, had to work seven days a week, no rest.
So these written contract points on stone basically said things like you can have a day off, don't do the dirty on each other and take notice of Me, I love you. No more serving strange and weird and many gods and idols. You have Me now to look to and find all your needs... and, I promise you we have a beautiful place to live, and we ought to get there soon.... follow Me and listen to what i tell you. Trust Me, I love you.

Now, you have to remember that those oppressed people knew only the oppression they lived under. When free to live without that oppression, what moral or pious model did they have to go by? They knew that if you want a woman, she's yours. If you want to get something from someone, take it or if you have to, set them up with lies and get it that way, or simply kill them. That's how it was done and so that was the way to do things, once you have the choice (no longer oppressed). So, can you see that the marriage contract was actually a safe guard for them. Before they had all these Egyptian gods and idols to look at and according to the record given of the magicians and the like, had some funky sort of powers, too, and could equal the miracles that were done that Moses had to do in the process of setting them free. But now, hey, there is only Me, One God, and i love you. I have been with you all the way and given you shelter and fresh nourishing food every day. I am interested in your welfare.

Don't commit adultery, that's not the way to live,. Don't steal and murder, that's not the way to live, take a day off and let's get together and relax and enjoy all this world I have made for people to enjoy, let's enjoy each other, too!

Those commandments of contract became known as the Law. What everyone forgot was they were the law of love, of non-oppression, of freedom and liberty.
The Children of Israel had no other idea about how to live and be their own people with their own 'rules' and boundaries. (that's a good word i could have used earlier in this post! boundaries).
Later on, they strayed and often in such a way as to adopt different boundaries and that would only result in oppression again of some manifestation or another, so was God too harsh to say, No, annihilate them all, spare none for they will corrupt you?
I almost swore then... but without doing so... **** let's let mice and rats and pigs take over the house and life will go on sweetly and the smell... oh so.... yuck!
So, are people only mere rats and mice and pigs? No, usually we (people ) are much worse. Mice and rats and pigs don't waste anything, people do... and you, Sir, are wasting an opportunity to accept all that God has for you in His love for you as if it's not good enough and as if He hasn't put before you enough of His love. You join in with all the other mockers and proud and reject His love, preferring your own wisdom and leaning on and in your own self-oppressive mire.
Your choice.

Perhaps that is belief for you or maybe piousness?

The adults never entered in to the place God had for them. They did not believe Him even though they had every reason to believe Him. Are you going to be as stupid and rebellious, Kirby D. P. or are you afraid of the giants, too?


Bless you ....><>

ps... by the way, it has been over two years now that hardly a day has passed that i have not prayed for you. Is that belief or piety?
and... PPS... you don't have to respond to me. I may not get around to reading it if you do. Nothing personal but I did not write all this for my benefit or to engage in chit chat with you... I would much prefer you think about it and throw down your guns, let down your defenses and let God in. Hew is knocking .... you know the rest....

the wisdom of the world is foolishness to God and the wisdom of God is foolish to the world, you'd be a fool to not trust Him.

Come unto Me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Matthew 11:28

Hi, Brother Bear. Always nice to see you.

First, in my defense, I always devote a great deal of effort (and my usual chronic, yet still honest, pleas) not to be taken with any offense. I have reviewed my exchanges with At Peace and I am hard pressed to find where I was not at least civil. I’ll own I did become frustrated with that detour late in the game, but primarily because I had asked At Peace a number of straightforward questions to which I didn’t seem to receive straightforward answers. On more than one occasion, taking these (what I thought to be) evasions, I asked At Peace of he or she would rather table that topic than proceed.

Separate and apart from that, while I’ll allow that hypocrites and hypocrisy are excellent subjects for discussion regarding faith and scripture, there is no denying there is a definite sense of aspersion associated with the label, “hypocrite.” And I (so far as I can recall) have only described certain behaviors and opinions as “hypocritical” without actually painting any person here as “a hypocrite.” In any case, I wont pretend to ignore that “hypocrite,” without any caveat or qualifier, serves us (as it served Jesus) as a pejorative. How else should I have read that coupled with At Peace’s proposed diagnosis of mental illness other than as a personal slight? I didn’t (and don’t) take it as any reason to respond with spleen and invective. (Though a little condescending passive aggressiveness never hurt anybody. “Hypocrite?” and “bi-polar?” Is that really the best a person can do? I mean, I hope I haven’t just been wasting my time with all the kittens I drown.)

Anyway, thank you for slogging through whatever portion of this thread you were able to endure. It did get out of hand, quite far afield of my original interest. I did not and do not wish to checkmate any demonstration THAT the Bible contains disagreeable content. My mistake, after I opened the matter, was to answer frankly (though, I hope, politely) questions from others here about WHAT I FIND disagreeable in it and to defend that position. The implicit corollary being that I somehow fault people who don’t find the same flaws I see for being flawed themselves. I do not.

So, for that, and for the torrid excursions it caused, and to anyone who may still be following this thread, I do sincerely apologize. At Peace, if you are reading this, my point on pressing you about the mixed fibers commandment was chiefly to illustrate a point of biblical doctrine I personally find disagreeable. I would never actually fear for my children’s safety in your presence.

But, Frater Ursus, back to business. Trust that I am fluent in biblical discussion enough to have a better-than-average handle on OT and NT scripture. And even a certain amount of Talmudic addenda. (Do you know why it is forbidden for Jews to perform a blood sacrifice by any body of water? Or to pray at all while standing on any polished floor? Hint: Both rules depend on the same reason.)

Over the course of my admittedly liberal Jewish education, it was inevitable I would be confronted with a certain apparent (emphasis –– APPARENT) inconsistency. We were taught that Moses himself wrote the Five Books of Moses, which include detailed description of Moses’s own fate and of the early history of the post-Exodus Hebrews in the Promised Land; a land, recall, in which Moses was forbidden to abide as punishment for hubris. To me, the biggest potential contradiction here is not that Moses could not know the future in such detail. If he is taking dictation from any omniscient God, he has vicarious access to every knowable detail of the cosmos, past present and future.

The inconsistency appears in the details of the reception of the Decalogue(s).

The Torah (Moses’s 5 books) IS the law (according to Jewish dogma). There are 613 authoritatively recognized commandments contained in that Torah. Moses may have collected and curated these laws over the course of the 40 years in the wilderness. But, again, according to Jewish dogma, Moses did not just come down from the mount with only ten commandments, but “THE LAW” in toto. Still, the texts speak very explicitly of “ten” commandments, not 613.

As a student, I was taught that he actually came down with at least the knowledge and authority of the whole of the law, and that regardless of what was inscribed on the tablets he carried, the “ten commandments” stands symbolically for all Mosaic law.

But I was never taught one additional detail which further confounds this 10/613-commandment ambiguity.

When Moses returns to camp with the first edition of the Decalogue, the Hebrews are judged and smote for behavior transgressing laws before they had been communicated to the people. (Yes, I know, ignorance of the law is no excuse for a crime.) Then Moses smashes the tablets, obliging him to return up the mountain where he receives a second recitation of a SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT Decalogue. Obviously, the first version was not utterly lost to all posterity –– we still find it there at the beginning of the story. And it would appear these are truly, actually ten, and only ten commandments. So it would appear Moses (as chronicler) is making a strong case that the tablets of the law CANNOT be considered a mere symbol for all biblical law.

I’m not over vexed by this apparent inconsistency. It poses a powerful illustration of certain central biblical themes. But I can only appreciate them as such allegorically. I don’t demand that you do and I offer them here as I think anyone who follows a more-or-less literal reading of scripture might find additional layers of worthwhile meaning in them.

But, when I confess I don’t take the Bible literally, it is definitely not because I haven’t read it.

And I generally assume that the faithful believe that either faith OR the acceptance of the holy truth in scripture would necessarily and automatically effect the other. Lacking either, it is much easier for me to imagine adopting either one but not necessarily both. Of course, if I ever DO come to belief in either, we’ll find out how possible that really is.

Finally. On a lighter note, I don’t know if you came across a few comments back when I incidentally mentioned the title of my favorite book. I found it hilariously funny and it was kind of reassuring to see that the language filters here at Talk Jesus are on their game. If it ever comes up again, you just have to understand what I’m talking about when I speak of how much I love reading Moby Duck.

 

[At Peace]

Hi, Brother Bear. Always nice to see you.

First, in my defense, I always devote a great deal of effort (and my usual chronic, yet still honest, pleas) not to be taken with any offense. I have reviewed my exchanges with At Peace and I am hard pressed to find where I was not at least civil. I’ll own I did become frustrated with that detour late in the game, but primarily because I had asked At Peace a number of straightforward questions to which I didn’t seem to receive straightforward answers. On more than one occasion, taking these (what I thought to be) evasions, I asked At Peace of he or she would rather table that topic than proceed.

Separate and apart from that, while I’ll allow that hypocrites and hypocrisy are excellent subjects for discussion regarding faith and scripture, there is no denying there is a definite sense of aspersion associated with the label, “hypocrite.” And I (so far as I can recall) have only described certain behaviors and opinions as “hypocritical” without actually painting any person here as “a hypocrite.” In any case, I wont pretend to ignore that “hypocrite,” without any caveat or qualifier, serves us (as it served Jesus) as a pejorative. How else should I have read that coupled with At Peace’s proposed diagnosis of mental illness other than as a personal slight? I didn’t (and don’t) take it as any reason to respond with spleen and invective. (Though a little condescending passive aggressiveness never hurt anybody. “Hypocrite?” and “bi-polar?” Is that really the best a person can do? I mean, I hope I haven’t just been wasting my time with all the kittens I drown.)

Anyway, thank you for slogging through whatever portion of this thread you were able to endure. It did get out of hand, quite far afield of my original interest. I did not and do not wish to checkmate any demonstration THAT the Bible contains disagreeable content. My mistake, after I opened the matter, was to answer frankly (though, I hope, politely) questions from others here about WHAT I FIND disagreeable in it and to defend that position. The implicit corollary being that I somehow fault people who don’t find the same flaws I see for being flawed themselves. I do not.

So, for that, and for the torrid excursions it caused, and to anyone who may still be following this thread, I do sincerely apologize. At Peace, if you are reading this, my point on pressing you about the mixed fibers commandment was chiefly to illustrate a point of biblical doctrine I personally find disagreeable. I would never actually fear for my children’s safety in your presence.

But, Frater Ursus, back to business. Trust that I am fluent in biblical discussion enough to have a better-than-average handle on OT and NT scripture. And even a certain amount of Talmudic addenda. (Do you know why it is forbidden for Jews to perform a blood sacrifice by any body of water? Or to pray at all while standing on any polished floor? Hint: Both rules depend on the same reason.)

Over the course of my admittedly liberal Jewish education, it was inevitable I would be confronted with a certain apparent (emphasis –– APPARENT) inconsistency. We were taught that Moses himself wrote the Five Books of Moses, which include detailed description of Moses’s own fate and of the early history of the post-Exodus Hebrews in the Promised Land; a land, recall, in which Moses was forbidden to abide as punishment for hubris. To me, the biggest potential contradiction here is not that Moses could not know the future in such detail. If he is taking dictation from any omniscient God, he has vicarious access to every knowable detail of the cosmos, past present and future.

The inconsistency appears in the details of the reception of the Decalogue(s).

The Torah (Moses’s 5 books) IS the law (according to Jewish dogma). There are 613 authoritatively recognized commandments contained in that Torah. Moses may have collected and curated these laws over the course of the 40 years in the wilderness. But, again, according to Jewish dogma, Moses did not just come down from the mount with only ten commandments, but “THE LAW” in toto. Still, the texts speak very explicitly of “ten” commandments, not 613.

As a student, I was taught that he actually came down with at least the knowledge and authority of the whole of the law, and that regardless of what was inscribed on the tablets he carried, the “ten commandments” stands symbolically for all Mosaic law.

But I was never taught one additional detail which further confounds this 10/613-commandment ambiguity.

When Moses returns to camp with the first edition of the Decalogue, the Hebrews are judged and smote for behavior transgressing laws before they had been communicated to the people. (Yes, I know, ignorance of the law is no excuse for a crime.) Then Moses smashes the tablets, obliging him to return up the mountain where he receives a second recitation of a SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT Decalogue. Obviously, the first version was not utterly lost to all posterity –– we still find it there at the beginning of the story. And it would appear these are truly, actually ten, and only ten commandments. So it would appear Moses (as chronicler) is making a strong case that the tablets of the law CANNOT be considered a mere symbol for all biblical law.

I’m not over vexed by this apparent inconsistency. It poses a powerful illustration of certain central biblical themes. But I can only appreciate them as such allegorically. I don’t demand that you do and I offer them here as I think anyone who follows a more-or-less literal reading of scripture might find additional layers of worthwhile meaning in them.

But, when I confess I don’t take the Bible literally, it is definitely not because I haven’t read it.

And I generally assume that the faithful believe that either faith OR the acceptance of the holy truth in scripture would necessarily and automatically effect the other. Lacking either, it is much easier for me to imagine adopting either one but not necessarily both. Of course, if I ever DO come to belief in either, we’ll find out how possible that really is.

Finally. On a lighter note, I don’t know if you came across a few comments back when I incidentally mentioned the title of my favorite book. I found it hilariously funny and it was kind of reassuring to see that the language filters here at Talk Jesus are on their game. If it ever comes up again, you just have to understand what I’m talking about when I speak of how much I love reading Moby Duck.

I have taken no offense at any of your posts.
We just fail to communicate on this type of format.
I live in a new covenant, wherein the OT is of value only for the presages and prophesies that were fulfilled...and the prophesies that will yet be fulfilled.
Commenting on linen and wool is like complaining about manual choke settings and point gaps on old cars...moot points.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

I have taken no offense at any of your posts.
We just fail to communicate on this type of format.
I live in a new covenant, wherein the OT is of value only for the presages and prophesies that were fulfilled...and the prophesies that will yet be fulfilled.
Commenting on linen and wool is like complaining about manual choke settings and point gaps on old cars...moot points.[/QUOTE

Understood.

 

[At Peace]

Let's talk about "belief in tandem with piety".
Belief is manifested by adherence to Godly wishes-commandments-doctrines.
If you believe, you obey.
Obey what?
Jesus said that we are to love God above all else, and love our neighbor as we love ourselves. On these two things hang all the law and prophets. (Matt 22:37-40)
Do that , and be judged 'pious'.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Let's talk about "belief in tandem with piety".
Belief is manifested by adherence to Godly wishes-commandments-doctrines.
If you believe, you obey.
Obey what?
Jesus said that we are to love God above all else, and love our neighbor as we love ourselves. On these two things hang all the law and prophets. (Matt 22:37-40)
Do that , and be judged 'pious'.

Maybe. Complicating all this is my inability to predict for sure my hypothetical attitudes IF I ever come to faith.

First of all, I allow there are possibly many different things that would inspire me to believe. I have thought of two specifically, but there must be many more. First would be some form of personal revelation, a “Road to Damascus” event. The second is not nearly so subjective an incident. I don’t describe it to anyone because it partially depends on no other human knowing what it is, but it is realistically plausible and I am adamant that if it ever happens. I will convert on the spot.

Back when I “came out” as an atheist, a deist friend of mine asked what kind of believer I would be if I ever left atheism. I had to think about it a few moments — I had only just begun exploring how my recent purely materialistic view of the universe would affect how I made my way through the world. As I have said here, I can’t say for sure how much belief on my part would mold my views on doctrine. But, if I come to a certainty of faith in the existence of the Christian God (trigger warning: I know this may sound irrational, illogical and repugnant to the faithful— but I can either be honest or uncontroversial), and I were also convinced of the literal veracity of scripture, I told my friend my response could be boiled down to one word: rebel.

 

[At Peace]

Maybe. Complicating all this is my inability to predict for sure my hypothetical attitudes IF I ever come to faith.

I can't argue about hypotheticals.
You haven't "come to faith", so anything beyond that is has yet to be written...so to speak.

First of all, I allow there are possibly many different things that would inspire me to believe. I have thought of two specifically, but there must be many more. First would be some form of personal revelation, a “Road to Damascus” event. The second is not nearly so subjective an incident. I don’t describe it to anyone because it partially depends on no other human knowing what it is, but it is realistically plausible and I am adamant that if it ever happens. I will convert on the spot.

The thing that "inspired me to believe" was that I wanted a way to quit hurting myself and those I was around.
Godliness provided that for me.

Back when I “came out” as an atheist, a deist friend of mine asked what kind of believer I would be if I ever left atheism. I had to think about it a few moments — I had only just begun exploring how my recent purely materialistic view of the universe would affect how I made my way through the world. As I have said here, I can’t say for sure how much belief on my part would mold my views on doctrine. But, if I come to a certainty of faith in the existence of the Christian God (trigger warning: I know this may sound irrational, illogical and repugnant to the faithful— but I can either be honest or uncontroversial), and I were also convinced of the literal veracity of scripture, I told my friend my response could be boiled down to one word: rebel.

Whether you realize it or not, Christianity is the ultimate rebellion.
Our rebellion is against "pure materialism".
Our rebellion is against "dog eat dog" and "survival of the fittest".
Our rebellion is against the devil and the damage he causes.
Our rebellion is against "me first" and "who cares about them".

You want to rebel against the existence of the Christian God, so I ask..."what danger is there in that"?
Who or what will "persecute" you for such an easy rebellion?
Try rebelling against the god of this world, (devil), and see the push back you get.
Your rebellion was the easy way out.
Mine may end up with my death.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

I can't argue about hypotheticals.
You haven't "come to faith", so anything beyond that is has yet to be written...so to speak.


The thing that "inspired me to believe" was that I wanted a way to quit hurting myself and those I was around.
Godliness provided that for me.


Whether you realize it or not, Christianity is the ultimate rebellion.
Our rebellion is against "pure materialism".
Our rebellion is against "dog eat dog" and "survival of the fittest".
Our rebellion is against the devil and the damage he causes.
Our rebellion is against "me first" and "who cares about them".

You want to rebel against the existence of the Christian God, so I ask..."what danger is there in that"?
Who or what will "persecute" you for such an easy rebellion?
Try rebelling against the god of this world, (devil), and see the push back you get.
Your rebellion was the easy way out.
Mine may end up with my death.

First, I sincerely congratulate you in whatever benefits your faith gives you.

I worry we may be verging on another muddle of communication.

I am not trying to conjecture much into any hypothetical situation. In fact, I raised the word for exactly the same reason you seem to take issue with it. I DON’T KNOW, with absolute certainty what I would do in any hypothetical future. I MIGHT BE WRONG in what I say now. I simply try to explain my convictions as I perceive them today.


I am keenly aware of Christianity’s rebellion against and rejection of superficial values, of the worship of self above all others, of any bureaucratic authority over moral, ethical values. In fact, if I recall correctly, I have applauded Christianity for its revolutionary exultation of mercy and redemption.

Let me be as clear as I can possibly try to be: I do not and would not rebel against the existence of God. I honestly, truly, and very earnestly have no preference for a world wrought by any almighty deity over one that runs strictly according to unintentioned natural laws. The only skin I have in that game is a craving to know one way or the other (or any one of a number of alternatives).

It’s like… um… It’s like dinosaur feathers. Most of my life I understood dinosaurs to be very closely related to modern reptiles. That included a conception they all had scaled or beaded skin, like lizards. It now seems, depending on which dinosaur era one considers, some or even most dinosaurs had feathers. The big star dinos from Jurassic Park? Specimens of all of them have been found with feathers. I am not glad they apparently had feathers. And I don’t wish they hadn’t. I simply would like to know.

I don’t think there is any inherent good in rebellion. I have already said, I function quite happily as a subordinate in many different relationships. If God exists, and he is good, I would have no issue in submitting to him.

However, I have strong disagreement with many of the morals and standards held forth in scripture. IF I believed in God, and IF the Bible is an accurate depiction of his will, I would feel I had no choice but to resist. If you want me to describe some details of how that might play out, I can. But I promise, if you take a moment to reread some of my earlier complaints in this thread, they still hold true and it’ll save us both some time.

So, last time, pruned down as short as I can make it:

I do not rebel against gods. I would not rebel against God. I resist injustice.

 

[At Peace]

I don’t think there is any inherent good in rebellion. I have already said, I function quite happily as a subordinate in many different relationships. If God exists, and he is good, I would have no issue in submitting to him.

However, I have strong disagreement with many of the morals and standards held forth in scripture. IF I believed in God, and IF the Bible is an accurate depiction of his will, I would feel I had no choice but to resist. If you want me to describe some details of how that might play out, I can. But I promise, if you take a moment to reread some of my earlier complaints in this thread, they still hold true and it’ll save us both some time.

So, last time, pruned down as short as I can make it:
I do not rebel against gods. I would not rebel against God. I resist injustice.

You base your view of "justice" on the justice the OT delivered to the wicked.
And find it immoral..
What kind of justice do you seek?