Beyond being saved, what must christians really do?

[B-A-C]

Depends, in your case I see it as 'spamming' cherry picked scriptures.

You would be more effective if you dealt with arguments raised. Took a post from me and quoted every section with an explanation. You have this idea that spamming scripture equates to you winning a discussion. It just shows you evade, spam and do not want to budge or properly discuss a belief a fellow brother has called borderline satanic.

If we give you "one" verse, it's cherry picking.
If we give you "several verses", it's spamming.

You're a hard guy to please.
What verse would you like to discuss?

 

[KingJ]

2Tim 2:17; And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort,
2Tim 2:18; who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some.

There are very mixed views on the exact message they taught / meaning they intended by saying ''the resurrection is already past''.

What do you believe their message was, exactly?

 

[KingJ]

If we give you "one" verse, it's cherry picking.
If we give you "several verses", it's spamming.

You're a hard guy to please.
What verse would you like to discuss?

BAC, you are playing games.

I can excuse many for cherry picking. As many are innocent. Don't know any better. Are not trying to biasedly push their narrative.

You, however are not exempt. You know scripture well. If you had to play devil's advocate with yourself you would find your anti-OSAS views do not hold much water.

 

[twcstp111]

It has a lot to do with many things, but the answer is and always was to love and walk uprightly.



Anyways,

good luck everyone and have great lives! Bye!

 

[Born Again 2004]

No, no it doesn't.

Only God is good Mark 10:18. You, me, angels in heaven are all.......sinners. One-day in heaven we will judge angels 1 Cor 6:3. Judge them, because they sin.

The devil has sinned from the beginning 1 John 3:8. Mortal sins, a desire for extreme wickedness, height of vanity, was the reason he was removed from heaven.

Purgatory, I do not support or believe in. But, I do not think any less of Catholics that do. They can easily defend it. OSAS is true from the moment you sink to a depth of intent for repentance. This requires God to give us time and space. Time and space to make such a decision from 'true free will'. Many on earth seem to not be given equal and fair opportunity or be sufficiently tried for God to grasp their heart. Enter Purgatory. I personally believe they are and that God is able to utilize the time we have on earth to fully grasp the true intentions of all. There is a lot more we can discuss on Purgatory, but leave that for the Purgatory thread.

A "works to gain salvation" (as apposed to salvation by a gift from God) detests OSAS.

Individuals , who support works, absolutely detest OSAS because it is in direct conflict with their belief. In fact, they call it satanic.

Oh , they probabley quote the Bible better than most but what they quote , they say, supports anti-osas but this is what they are missing:
1. All the scripture they quote, is a misinterpretation, I.e., saying Faith is dead with out works...they turn into a lie and say, "there that proves the validity of a works based salvation" when God is talking about saved individuals, once saved, this is God's work through them!
2. Talked about Satanic! The worst of all, is that they don't understand how Holy, Holy, Holy is God. Their belief is direct sin against the MOST holy!

Oh yes. Let's let God to determine what He counts as works, not Man!

 

[twcstp111]

A "works to gain salvation" (as apposed to salvation by a gift from God) detests OSAS.

Individuals , who support works, absolutely detest OSAS because it is in direct conflict with their belief. In fact, they call it satanic.

Oh , they probabley quote the Bible better than most but what they quote , they say, supports anti-osas but this is what they are missing:
1. All the scripture they quote, is a misinterpretation, I.e., saying Faith is dead with out works...they turn into a lie and say, "there that proves the validity of a works based salvation" when God is talking about saved individuals, once saved, this is God's work through them!
2. Talked about Satanic! The worst of all, is that they don't understand how Holy, Holy, Holy is God. Their belief is direct sin against the MOST holy!

Oh yes. Let's let God to determine what He counts as works, not Man!

last comment

friends,

honestly this kind of conversation seems utterly pointless to me. every one of us knows intuitively what the actual message of the scriptures is, and so, these conversations are relatively useless. the 'works' is 'loving thy neighbor as thyself' and that's it--that is the fulfillment in all of its fullness.

best wishes

 

[Br. Bear]

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward His name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end: that ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.
Hebrews 6:9-12

 

[KingJ]

A "works to gain salvation" (as apposed to salvation by a gift from God) detests OSAS.

Individuals , who support works, absolutely detest OSAS because it is in direct conflict with their belief. In fact, they call it satanic.

Oh , they probabley quote the Bible better than most but what they quote , they say, supports anti-osas but this is what they are missing:
1. All the scripture they quote, is a misinterpretation, I.e., saying Faith is dead with out works...they turn into a lie and say, "there that proves the validity of a works based salvation" when God is talking about saved individuals, once saved, this is God's work through them!
2. Talked about Satanic! The worst of all, is that they don't understand how Holy, Holy, Holy is God. Their belief is direct sin against the MOST holy!

Oh yes. Let's let God to determine what He counts as works, not Man!

Yes, agree fully. It is placing people set free back into bondage. A kind of Judaism 2.0.

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Yes, agree fully. It is placing people set free back into bondage. A kind of Judaism 2.0.

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

In their Zeal, they in turn say, God is not powerful enough and ,only they, are responsible for obtaining Eternity...Hebrews 6:6

 

[Br. Bear]

Yes, agree fully. It is placing people set free back into bondage. A kind of Judaism 2.0.

John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed Him, If ye abide in My word, then are ye truly My disciples; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. They answered unto Him, We are Abraham's seed, and have never yet been in bondage to any man: how sayest Thou, Ye shall be made free?

Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Every one that committeth sin is the bondservant of sin. And the bondservant abideth not in the house for ever: the son abideth for ever. If therefore the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
John 8:31 -36

If ye abide in My word, then are ye truly My disciples; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


"And what is truth?"
John 18:38a


Bless you ....><>

 

[brighthouse98]

Brother King First let me show you something( 1 Cor 9:23-27) Serving two tours in Vietnam there was one word we never used,and today I will never use it. In this scripture of having discipline do you see the word try in there?? LOL We now have aim!!! We either do or do not do.To me brother, now just to me not wanting to ruffle anyones feathers,the word try means to make an attempt,if a person uses this word I already know something,they are unsure,which means there is no faith,which also means they have that terrible word!!!! DOUBT!!!

And what always runs with doubt??? YUP!!!! Your right again!!! FEAR!!!! It took me many years in the Lord to first agree with that, and truly understand what the Holy Spirit related to me about faith. Many,not speaking about any here,but we all know many who have a greater faith in doubting,then they do in believing.

And we also know the truth about what one can ever expect from that.( James 1:5-8!!!) verse 6 brother,MUST!!!! No try. hehe This is not a gentle rebuke to you in any way!!!! No rebuke at all!!! Just how I have come to look to be and stay in our Lord's service. This mindset( Rom 12:2-3) Keeps me humble to!! Blessing to you brother!!

 

[KingJ]

If a Christian can commit a "mortal sin" as you call it. Then they can lose their salvation.

You just don't get it BAC.

A Christian has the nature of Christ. A Christian has already proven themselves to God. A Christian is sanctified from all their sins. A Christian will never go around committing mortal sins. You need to picture the perfect bride. Would she go around committing adultery? Killing her children? Now, grasp the fact that God does not bond Himself with a devil. God does not graft into His vine someone who soon after Him doing such is going to go around committing mortal sins. God is not a fool that marries the wrong spouse. We are fools. We marry someone who we may think loves us.

You need to meditate on the examples I have given you in prior pages and not just have tunnel vision on your many cherry picked scriptures. You simply fail terribly at discernment. Your epic error on this topic is that you do not grasp the NT.

Example:

Judaism / OT = girlfriend and boyfriend
Christianity = marriage

When I dated my girlfriend, she needed to tick all the boxes. Be good with children. Dress appropriately. Enjoy attending church meetings. Able to pray and fast. I needed to know she loved me, so I looked for signs of it. Signs like her not swearing at me or running me down. Cooking something she knows I dislike. Not cleaning up after herself. During this courting phase, our relationship was very volatile.

She ticked all the necessary boxes. Chief one of course being her love for Jesus and others. We then got married.

Now, in marriage. Would you say it is appropriate for me to say '''dear sweetypie of mine, should you swear at me or run me down to others I will divorce you''.

I should have the brain matter between my two ears to grasp that her love for me in that she married me be sufficient. A depth of intent that has taken us from boyfriend / girlfriend to spouses. We have moved on from playing tiddly winks.

My wife can get away with a lot of sins to me as I always filter her actions through her decision to marry me. Lay her life down for me. The greatest act of love possible John 15:13.

This is what happens when we get saved. We move from death to life. We move from knowing about God to knowing God. From playing with and tasting the things of God, to being completely at His side.

John 5:24 Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Rev 2:4; 'But I have this against you, that you have left your first love.
Rev 2:5; 'Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place—unless you repent.

This is a warning to a whole church body. The whole NT is full of examples like this where all in attendance at church meetings are blanketed with such warnings. This does not disprove OSAS.

You need to look at a verse like this with the backdrop of Sodom and Nineveh. Nineveh repented and were spared, Sodom did not.

As a church body, they are able to influence all in attendance. Distorting the message as we see in later verses. This would result in the church as a whole not functioning. Not being for God and not producing genuine Christians.

So God wants the church as a whole to repent and change their ways.

 

[B-A-C]

A Christian has the nature of Christ. A Christian has already proven themselves to God.

Proven themselves in what way? A woman can "prove herself" to you for a number of years, you can marry her... and then after a few more years she can "unprove" herself to you.

A Christian will never go around committing mortal sins.

A Christian won't be practicing any sins at all. There are no "little white sins". (Although some have greater consequences I agree)
What does this really mean? There are some sins I can commit all I want to, and God doesn't care?
Do you have scripture for this?

Now, in marriage. Would you say it is appropriate for me to say '''dear sweetypie of mine, should you swear at me or run me down to others I will divorce you''.

In marriage it would be appropriate to say, if you are ever unfaithful to me, I will divorce you.

I should have the brain matter between my two ears to grasp that her love for me in that she married me be sufficient.

And yet Jesus tells some Christians they have left their first love (Him)
Jesus does allow for divorce if there is unfaithfulness.

You need to look at a verse like this with the backdrop of Sodom and Nineveh. Nineveh repented and were spared, Sodom did not.

Nineveh was spared with Jonah, but not with Nahum later.

This is a warning to a whole church body. The whole NT is full of examples like this where all in attendance at church meetings are blanketed with such warnings. This does not disprove OSAS.

So what does this mean, this building was unfaithful? The building quit being a Christian? No, the body is made of up individuals. If the church is straying, that means those in the church have strayed.

 

[B-A-C]

Judaism / OT = girlfriend and boyfriend
Christianity = marriage

Isa 49:18; "Lift up your eyes and look around; All of them gather together, they come to you. As I live," declares the LORD, "You will surely put on all of them as jewels and bind them on as a bride.
Isa 61:10; I will rejoice greatly in the LORD, My soul will exult in my God; For He has clothed me with garments of salvation, He has wrapped me with a robe of righteousness, As a bridegroom decks himself with a garland, And as a bride adorns herself with her jewels.
Isa 62:5; For as a young man marries a virgin, So your sons will marry you; And as the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, So your God will rejoice over you.
Jer 2:32; "Can a virgin forget her ornaments, Or a bride her attire? Yet My people have forgotten Me Days without number.

And yet God compares Israel to a bride in the OT also.

 

[B-A-C]

I think we have "strayed" pretty far ourselves here in the thread.

But make no mistake, our God is a jealous God.

Exod 20:5; "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Exod 34:14; —for you shall not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God—
Deut 4:24; "For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.

Deut 6:15; for the LORD your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the LORD your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth.
Deut 32:16; "They made Him jealous with strange gods; With abominations they provoked Him to anger.
Deut 32:21; 'They have made Me jealous with what is not God; They have provoked Me to anger with their idols. So I will make them jealous with those who are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation,
Josh 24:19 ; Then Joshua said to the people, "You will not be able to serve the LORD, for He is a holy God. He is a jealous God; He will not forgive your transgression or your sins.
Nah 1:2; A jealous and avenging God is the LORD; The LORD is avenging and wrathful. The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies.

2Cor 11:2; For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin.

God uses some pretty graphic language to explain how he sees this. In verse 4 it says He is talking about Samaria and Jerusalem here.

Ezek 23:2 "Son of man, there were two women, the daughters of one mother;
Ezek 23:3 and they played the harlot in Egypt. They played the harlot in their youth; there their breasts were pressed and there their virgin bosom was handled.
Ezek 23:4 "Their names were Oholah the elder and Oholibah her sister. And they became Mine, and they bore sons and daughters. And as for their names, Samaria is Oholah and Jerusalem is Oholibah.
Ezek 23:5 "Oholah played the harlot while she was Mine; and she lusted after her lovers, after the Assyrians, her neighbors,
Ezek 23:6 who were clothed in purple, governors and officials, all of them desirable young men, horsemen riding on horses.
Ezek 23:7 "She bestowed her harlotries on them, all of whom were the choicest men of Assyria; and with all whom she lusted after, with all their idols she defiled herself.
Ezek 23:8 "She did not forsake her harlotries from the time in Egypt; for in her youth men had lain with her, and they handled her virgin bosom and poured out their lust on her.
Ezek 23:9 "Therefore, I gave her into the hand of her lovers, into the hand of the Assyrians, after whom she lusted.
Ezek 23:10 "They uncovered her nakedness; they took her sons and her daughters, but they slew her with the sword. Thus she became a byword among women, and they executed judgments on her.
Ezek 23:11 "Now her sister Oholibah saw this, yet she was more corrupt in her lust than she, and her harlotries were more than the harlotries of her sister.
Ezek 23:12 "She lusted after the Assyrians, governors and officials, the ones near, magnificently dressed, horsemen riding on horses, all of them desirable young men.
Ezek 23:13 "I saw that she had defiled herself; they both took the same way.
Ezek 23:14 "So she increased her harlotries. And she saw men portrayed on the wall, images of the Chaldeans portrayed with vermilion,
Ezek 23:15 girded with belts on their loins, with flowing turbans on their heads, all of them looking like officers, like the Babylonians in Chaldea, the land of their birth.
Ezek 23:16 "When she saw them she lusted after them and sent messengers to them in Chaldea.
Ezek 23:17 "The Babylonians came to her to the bed of love and defiled her with their harlotry. And when she had been defiled by them, she became disgusted with them.
Ezek 23:18 "She uncovered her harlotries and uncovered her nakedness; then I became disgusted with her, as I had become disgusted with her sister.
Ezek 23:19 "Yet she multiplied her harlotries, remembering the days of her youth, when she played the harlot in the land of Egypt.
Ezek 23:20 "She lusted after their paramours, whose genitals is like the genitals of donkeys and whose semen is like the semen of horses.
Ezek 23:21 "Thus you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when the Egyptians handled your bosom because of the breasts of your youth.
Ezek 23:22 "Therefore, O Oholibah, thus says the Lord GOD, 'Behold I will arouse your lovers against you, from whom you were alienated, and I will bring them against you from every side:
Ezek 23:23 the Babylonians and all the Chaldeans, Pekod and Shoa and Koa, and all the Assyrians with them; desirable young men, governors and officials all of them, officers and men of renown, all of them riding on horses.
Ezek 23:24 'They will come against you with weapons, chariots and wagons, and with a company of peoples. They will set themselves against you on every side with buckler and shield and helmet; and I will commit the judgment to them, and they will judge you according to their customs.
Ezek 23:25 'I will set My jealousy against you, that they may deal with you in wrath. They will remove your nose and your ears; and your survivors will fall by the sword. They will take your sons and your daughters; and your survivors will be consumed by the fire.

We say we love God, we say God loves us... but we take the seriousness of those statement WAAAAAAAAYYYY too lightly.
God isn't going to put up with a lot of nonsense. He forgave them a few times, but eventually He had enough.

 

[Shutterbug]

I'll add my two cents worth, but not with the expectation of thinking I know the answer when I often don't understand the question.

It's about having a desire to love and seek the things of God. It's a desire to be led by Jesus, seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit, becoming baptized as a show of good conscience. It's about letting your life demonstrate the love of Jesus toward all people with respect, patience, humility and with deliberation because they also need that same indwelling. If the will of God is that no man should perish, then that must become our desire, too.

Do I think we can lose our salvation? I do believe we can throw away the opportunity through willful ignorance to the will of our Master. I submit the final decision remains with God. I apologize for not listing scriptural references to reinforce my opinion, but this is my general intuition. Cheers

 

[KingJ]

Proven themselves in what way? A woman can "prove herself" to you for a number of years, you can marry her... and then after a few more years she can "unprove" herself to you.

1. God is the perfect spouse, He will never leave us.
2. Yes, we are humans who can make a decision to follow God and lose interest thereafter.
3. God is not a fool who marries a spouse that will leave Him.
4. Scripture teaches that only adultery is grounds for divorce Matt 5:32, Matt 19:8. But should our spouse ask for forgiveness, we should forgive them and take them back Luke 17:3-4.

God searches the hearts of the person He joins Himself to Jer 17:9-10. Searches the hearts at depths of intent you and I cannot.

Imagine I was able to do that to a spouse. I would have married my current wife in the very beginning and not dated all the girlfriends I did.

God has limited omniscience prior to us 'deciding' to serve Jesus. Once we 'decide', we unlock / give Him permission to judge us and for His 'omniscience' to kick in.

We have indeed proven ourselves to God. You do not become a Christian, pass a session of God's judgement of heart and mind unless you are sufficiently sincere.

You need to go back to the example I gave you of a friend who would lay their life down for you. The decision to accept Jesus, the heart intention required for God to graft us in, is on par with a friend who would lay their life down for you. Would such a friend ever not be welcome in your house? Should such a friend commit a mortal sin, would such a person not truly desire forgiveness? Of course they would.

You and I can eternally ''trust'' God because God has shown us the depth of His love for us on the cross. It is the same both ways. That is why the real discussion needs to be on what it takes to be a Christian.

 

[KingJ]

A Christian won't be practicing any sins at all. There are no "little white sins". (Although some have greater consequences I agree) What does this really mean? There are some sins I can commit all I want to, and God doesn't care?
Do you have scripture for this?

There are no sins we can continue in unrepentant. Don't put words in my mouth.

The fact is that we will always be sinners. If you study what sin is, you will find it is going against the will of God in anyway shape or form. God is good and righteous in all His ways. As such, every request of His, every law is therefore perfect and righteous. This is why Jesus says Mark 10:18.

You and I, are terribly far from being 'a god' now or in heaven. You and I are sanctified by the blood of Jesus. This makes us perfect to God. Not perfect like God.

We live on for eternity with Jesus as our ambassador to God. Jesus will daily, weekly, yearly remind God (if needed) of the fact that we hate what is evil more then we love it Rom 12:9. Remind Him of the fact that we lay our lives down for Him and are therefore always capable of true repentance.

A verse like Luke 17:3,4 will apply to us for all eternity Luke 17:3-4 Pay attention to yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, saying, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

A true Christian will ''ALWAYS'' desire repentance after sin, any sin. Fact.

Are you suggesting to me BAC that right now you are without sin? In heaven we will judge angels 1 Cor 6:3, judge them because they sin.

 

[KingJ]

And yet Jesus tells some Christians they have left their first love (Him).

That was a statement to a church body.

Nineveh was spared with Jonah, but not with Nahum later.

Irrelevant to the point made.

So what does this mean, this building was unfaithful? The building quit being a Christian? No, the body is made of up individuals. If the church is straying, that means those in the church have strayed.

If you have ever preached at a pulpit you will fully agree with the point I am making. At the pulpit, you do NOT single out person A and person B. Then if you hear bad reports of a neighboring church, you address a letter to the 'church leadership'. Warning them of X and Y.

The church body as a whole was not ''producing Christians''. Consider how God had to deal with Sodom as the city was not an environment conducive to a balance of good and evil. The city was lob-sided toward evil. God is stricter on a 'church'. He wants to see His children looked after and the unsaved given the truth. Paul had constant problems with churches and the messages they taught.

This is however an entirely separate matter to God knowing who in the ''wonky'' church is His.

 

[Downunder]

God has limited omniscience prior to us 'deciding' to serve Jesus. Once we 'decide', we unlock / give Him permission to judge us and for His 'omniscience' to kick in

I think you make your doctrine up as you go along.

That is why the real discussion needs to be on what it takes to be a Christian.

What it takes is continuing faithfulness.