Think about what you are saying. Let's say a murderer and rapist comes on here, or just a Calvinist, and they lead people astray and teach a false salvation. But you insist not to expose them? I don't see that attitude in the Bible.
Calvinism
- Thread starter Saforg
- Start date
Well I'm not going to argue and continue to debate this with you.
Just be very careful in making judgements about others as if you are the gate keeper.
I don't think you should argue either. Be careful not to accuse Christians when the Holy Spirit reveals the unsalvation of Calvinists since the latter are unwilling to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. That would a dangerous path you are going down as the gate keeper and in your judgments.
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2004
- Messages
- 17,078
Lose the sarcasm Safrog. It is not your duty nor right to assume who is saved or not saved. You're a sinner, be concerned about that not others. You obviously made enough judgment towards groups and certain individuals in this thread such as Calvinists, Spurgeon to name two alone.
What's your point and goal here? So you don't like Calvinists. Where in the Bible do you see any example of GOD telling the apostles to waste their time judging others instead of reaching out to the lost? You call that edification?
Luke 6:36-38
<sup id="en-ESV-25174" class="versenum">36</sup> Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
Judging Others
<sup id="en-ESV-25175" class="versenum">37</sup> "Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven; <sup id="en-ESV-25176" class="versenum">38</sup> give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you."
Wait, let's see what Jesus says Himself...
John 12:47
If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.
I'm not a Calvinist junior, so I'm not sure what you are saying about me being wrong. You would be more efficient in your discussions if you were less of a tool and just at least pretended to speak with some measure of grace...but I figure you fancy yourself some kind of prophet since you have that special pipe-line to the Holy Spirit, so you obviously can't ever be wrong when the Holy Ghost is whispering in your ear...your kind of people are what gives me little hope.
"Turn to your Bible and read for yourself in the only two chapters in which this word predestinate or predestinated is found. The first is Romans 8:29-30, the other chapter is Ephesians 1:5 and 11.
You will note that there is no reference in these four verses to either heaven or hell but to Christ-likeness eventually.
Nowhere are we told in scripture that God predestinated one man to be saved and another to be lost. Men are to be saved or lost eternally because of their attitude towards the Lord Jesus Christ. Predestination means that someday all the redeemed shall become just like the Lord Jesus"
"D.L. Moody used to put it very simply the elect are the 'whosoever wills' the non-elect 'whosoever wont's'. This is exactly what scripture teaches, the invitation is to all, those who accept it are the elect. Remember, we are never told that Christ died for the elect".
"Whosoever means, whosoever." Only a biased theologian, with an axe to grind, could ever think that it meant only the elect."
--H.A. Ironside
Copper25
Member
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2008
- Messages
- 137
The call for examination
T = Total Depravity: this means i am so corrupted by sin that i cannot do anything to please god. all of our good works are as filthy rags before him.
The question, is this true?
First off, let me say that I consider not my self a Calvinist. I do say this to, "what saith the scripture", not our bias view? Let us be like those in Berea, who searched the scripture to know the condition of something said to them, wether of truth or falsehood.
(Acts 17:10-11) "And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
In order to even start to begin to comprehend waht man is, we need to take a look at what God is.
Let us Look at 7 key points that are critical to understand
First
In order to under stand this concept better, we must first look at God, just who is God. Well, what siath the scripture?
1 john 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto, that God is light and in him is no darkness
1) God is light. Has God hide himself from the world saying, "ha, these people, these humans shall never know who I am, I will give them no clue at all that I sit in the heavens, that I have sculpted the universe"? NO! As it is written,
Romans 1
<SUP></SUP>
<SUP>18</SUP>For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
<SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-27950></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>19</SUP>Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
<SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-27951></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>20</SUP>For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: <SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-27952></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>21</SUP>Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
When man looks around to see the what this creation is, to behold everything from the trees, to the skies, to the spans of the stars that are in the heavens, they witness the creation of God. God has shownHimself to mankind, the evidence is clearly there in creation. Now wether man chooses to except this truth, or turn to a fable of evolution or the big bang theory, or some other lie is completely up to them. But is it God's fault that they believe not? Absolutly not!
2) "in him is no darkness"
Is God in any what unrighteous? Godforbid because righteousness is part of God's nature
John Wesley said "And in him is no darkness at all - No contrary principle. He is pure, unmixed light."
Shall God have any mixture with iniquity? Shall the God of heaven submit Himself to of be tainted with any work of darkness, any fabrication of sin? Shall God be entagled in the smallest hint of sinfulness? God forbid, because this would simply contradict the nature of God.
If I tried to say to a lion, "eat grass like deer, or graze in the field like a Gazelle", would that lion go down to the field and start eatting grass? Nay, because it is not in his nature. His nature is saying "I want meat, find and eat meat". In the same way would God submit himself under any cirrcumstane to tat which contradicts his nature? Absolutly not. As it is written (Psalm 145:7) "The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works": Thus it follows that their is not one single working of God that is not righteous. All things that God will ever do will not contradict his nature of righteousness. God can't contradict Himself.
3) God is Complelety against wickedness without exception
The next thing we have to understand is that because God is Holy, and because He is absolutly righteous, and will never submit to
compromise or have fellowship with the works of darkness: He by his nature, seeing that he is righteous, hates ALL iniquity. Name any sinful act under the sun and I can garentee you that the face of almighty God hates it and stands firmly, and is forever unshiftingly against it. Has God changed in His attitude toward adultry or Blaspheme at all for exampe? Nay. As it is wrtten,
(Psalms 5:4) For thou are not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee
This is an interesting one that proceeds after Psalm 5:4, but this remember is the result of God being perfectly righteous.
(Psalm 5:5) The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
again (Psalm 34:16) "The face of the LORD is against then that do evil, to cut off the rememberance of them from the face of the earth.
I am not saying, before any of you ask, that God is not merciful, this is just a short (I mean nt even touching the foot hills of this attribute short) look at God's righteousness.
If I said "Sir, did you know that I love babies", but then I ran an abortion clinic, which would speak louder, my actions of my proffesional career, or my flabby words? If I said that I support the freedom and liberation of the Jews in the time period of World War II, and yet I worked supporting the Nazi party, working for them; Which would you believe, my actions, or my words? In the Same way, God MUST stand against ALL iniquity, because he is and loves righteousness.
4) God will not tip te scales of His justice in judgement
God, as we know is a perfect judge. God will not show favor of persons in judgement. As it is written, (Colossians 3:25) "But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons." Therefore it is a certainty that the Almight God of heaven will never corrupt judgement, nor sway judgement in favor of any person that stands before him. The scales of God's justice stand established for ever in equity, purity, and no one can hide from the eyes of God's Justice.
5) Many people think God is a respector of persons in judgement
When I witness to people, it really causes sadness and a feeling of how much people do not look at, nor know God's judgement. If 10 people who have commited adultry for example were to stand before God, this is what you WOULD NOT HEAR, "Everyone does it, many people follow after this way of adultry, so I will just let you into heaven"; but sadly enough, this is the thinking of many many people. Even some atheist, when confronted, have this attitude, this
mentality formulated into their brains, saying "Well if their is a god, I'm sure he will forgive me because everyone has sinned, everybody does it, everbody has lied ... etc". Not realizing the fatal mistake that God in His justice with open up the hidden things, every thought, every word, every action for that individual and the verdict will be guilty regaurd less if every human committed that same transgression. The verse segment will be hanging over their head shall be this (Romans 6:23) "The wages of sin is death". This means that for the slightest error, the smallest sin (though their is not such thing as light sin to God, even one sin is big), that person is worthy of damnation and hell, soaking up the perpetual warth of God and smeltering in the furnace of his indignation for ever and ever. As it is written (Revelation 21:8) "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake whch burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
6) The damnation of all lost peoples
There is not exit, no door that can be opened to save those souls destitute of Christ once they pass through that gate of death. As it is written, (Mark 16:16) "he that believeth not shall be damned". Apart from Christ one is inevitably running toward that lake of fire as a moth to a flame because they have not the preciuos blood of Jesus to cover them. There is no exception to this, you are ether justified by faith, or you are damned because of unbelief.
Thus that person who is the atheist, or who lives like an atheist (regaurdless of their lips confessing God and our Lord Jesus), choosing not to run to God, conform to his ways, to obey and trust in Christ for salvation (and not works nor a mixture of faith and works) for justification; will be without any exceptions lost and be giulty; damned burning for infinite span of eternity.
If those that acknowledge Christ existance, but who were not truely His, hear "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."; how shall anyone else stand who denies God, the Lord of host. If God said about Isreal, about his people of the old
testament (Hosea 4:6) "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"; how much more shall the ungodly be.
7) No justification for those on Great white throne judgement Day
Job said this (Job 9:20) "If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse." So shall this senerio be with anyone who on that day tries to justify themselves for any wrong doing, any action that is of the unfruitful works of darkness. Their justification will not be found so, because they will have blemish, they will have wrinkle, they will have spot; and for that matter nothing to cleanse it.
Job said this also said this (Job 9:2-3) " I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand." So shall that man be one the day of judgement, there is no intellectual mind in human his, not
Shakespeare, not Plato, not even one as wise as Solomen, could even begin to contend with God, but would stand astonsihed and stunned.
Job, after just being asked a many questions by God, job could not even answer one of them and said (Job 40:4) "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth". How much more shall all the ungodly be on that day of Judement.
With these things being said, (Genesis 18:25) "shall not the Judge of all the earth do right."
Now we are ready to examine man
With these things being said, the question is,
1) who is man, what is a natural man life when it comes to the things of truth and the things of God?
2) For natural man, what is their state of mind?
3) What does man gravitate toward, sin or righteousness?
4) Would the natural man accept the unadulterated truth, if it was presented to him?
5) Does Man need God to move upon his heart to accept the unadulterated truth and come to repentance?
Again, let use scriptural evidence, not just some bias yes or no.
Well? Let us unbiased answer these questions using scripture. "What saith the scripture" should be our question when searching for the answers.
T = Total Depravity: this means i am so corrupted by sin that i cannot do anything to please god. all of our good works are as filthy rags before him.
The question, is this true?
First off, let me say that I consider not my self a Calvinist. I do say this to, "what saith the scripture", not our bias view? Let us be like those in Berea, who searched the scripture to know the condition of something said to them, wether of truth or falsehood.
(Acts 17:10-11) "And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews. These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so."
In order to even start to begin to comprehend waht man is, we need to take a look at what God is.
Let us Look at 7 key points that are critical to understand
First
In order to under stand this concept better, we must first look at God, just who is God. Well, what siath the scripture?
1 john 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto, that God is light and in him is no darkness
1) God is light. Has God hide himself from the world saying, "ha, these people, these humans shall never know who I am, I will give them no clue at all that I sit in the heavens, that I have sculpted the universe"? NO! As it is written,
Romans 1
<SUP></SUP>
<SUP>18</SUP>For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
<SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-27950></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>19</SUP>Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
<SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-27951></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>20</SUP>For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: <SUP class=versenum id=en-KJV-27952></SUP>
<SUP class=versenum>21</SUP>Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
When man looks around to see the what this creation is, to behold everything from the trees, to the skies, to the spans of the stars that are in the heavens, they witness the creation of God. God has shownHimself to mankind, the evidence is clearly there in creation. Now wether man chooses to except this truth, or turn to a fable of evolution or the big bang theory, or some other lie is completely up to them. But is it God's fault that they believe not? Absolutly not!
2) "in him is no darkness"
Is God in any what unrighteous? Godforbid because righteousness is part of God's nature
John Wesley said "And in him is no darkness at all - No contrary principle. He is pure, unmixed light."
Shall God have any mixture with iniquity? Shall the God of heaven submit Himself to of be tainted with any work of darkness, any fabrication of sin? Shall God be entagled in the smallest hint of sinfulness? God forbid, because this would simply contradict the nature of God.
If I tried to say to a lion, "eat grass like deer, or graze in the field like a Gazelle", would that lion go down to the field and start eatting grass? Nay, because it is not in his nature. His nature is saying "I want meat, find and eat meat". In the same way would God submit himself under any cirrcumstane to tat which contradicts his nature? Absolutly not. As it is written (Psalm 145:7) "The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works": Thus it follows that their is not one single working of God that is not righteous. All things that God will ever do will not contradict his nature of righteousness. God can't contradict Himself.
3) God is Complelety against wickedness without exception
The next thing we have to understand is that because God is Holy, and because He is absolutly righteous, and will never submit to
compromise or have fellowship with the works of darkness: He by his nature, seeing that he is righteous, hates ALL iniquity. Name any sinful act under the sun and I can garentee you that the face of almighty God hates it and stands firmly, and is forever unshiftingly against it. Has God changed in His attitude toward adultry or Blaspheme at all for exampe? Nay. As it is wrtten,
(Psalms 5:4) For thou are not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee
This is an interesting one that proceeds after Psalm 5:4, but this remember is the result of God being perfectly righteous.
(Psalm 5:5) The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.
again (Psalm 34:16) "The face of the LORD is against then that do evil, to cut off the rememberance of them from the face of the earth.
I am not saying, before any of you ask, that God is not merciful, this is just a short (I mean nt even touching the foot hills of this attribute short) look at God's righteousness.
If I said "Sir, did you know that I love babies", but then I ran an abortion clinic, which would speak louder, my actions of my proffesional career, or my flabby words? If I said that I support the freedom and liberation of the Jews in the time period of World War II, and yet I worked supporting the Nazi party, working for them; Which would you believe, my actions, or my words? In the Same way, God MUST stand against ALL iniquity, because he is and loves righteousness.
4) God will not tip te scales of His justice in judgement
God, as we know is a perfect judge. God will not show favor of persons in judgement. As it is written, (Colossians 3:25) "But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons." Therefore it is a certainty that the Almight God of heaven will never corrupt judgement, nor sway judgement in favor of any person that stands before him. The scales of God's justice stand established for ever in equity, purity, and no one can hide from the eyes of God's Justice.
5) Many people think God is a respector of persons in judgement
When I witness to people, it really causes sadness and a feeling of how much people do not look at, nor know God's judgement. If 10 people who have commited adultry for example were to stand before God, this is what you WOULD NOT HEAR, "Everyone does it, many people follow after this way of adultry, so I will just let you into heaven"; but sadly enough, this is the thinking of many many people. Even some atheist, when confronted, have this attitude, this
mentality formulated into their brains, saying "Well if their is a god, I'm sure he will forgive me because everyone has sinned, everybody does it, everbody has lied ... etc". Not realizing the fatal mistake that God in His justice with open up the hidden things, every thought, every word, every action for that individual and the verdict will be guilty regaurd less if every human committed that same transgression. The verse segment will be hanging over their head shall be this (Romans 6:23) "The wages of sin is death". This means that for the slightest error, the smallest sin (though their is not such thing as light sin to God, even one sin is big), that person is worthy of damnation and hell, soaking up the perpetual warth of God and smeltering in the furnace of his indignation for ever and ever. As it is written (Revelation 21:8) "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake whch burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
6) The damnation of all lost peoples
There is not exit, no door that can be opened to save those souls destitute of Christ once they pass through that gate of death. As it is written, (Mark 16:16) "he that believeth not shall be damned". Apart from Christ one is inevitably running toward that lake of fire as a moth to a flame because they have not the preciuos blood of Jesus to cover them. There is no exception to this, you are ether justified by faith, or you are damned because of unbelief.
Thus that person who is the atheist, or who lives like an atheist (regaurdless of their lips confessing God and our Lord Jesus), choosing not to run to God, conform to his ways, to obey and trust in Christ for salvation (and not works nor a mixture of faith and works) for justification; will be without any exceptions lost and be giulty; damned burning for infinite span of eternity.
If those that acknowledge Christ existance, but who were not truely His, hear "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."; how shall anyone else stand who denies God, the Lord of host. If God said about Isreal, about his people of the old
testament (Hosea 4:6) "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge"; how much more shall the ungodly be.
7) No justification for those on Great white throne judgement Day
Job said this (Job 9:20) "If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse." So shall this senerio be with anyone who on that day tries to justify themselves for any wrong doing, any action that is of the unfruitful works of darkness. Their justification will not be found so, because they will have blemish, they will have wrinkle, they will have spot; and for that matter nothing to cleanse it.
Job said this also said this (Job 9:2-3) " I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If he will contend with him, he cannot answer him one of a thousand." So shall that man be one the day of judgement, there is no intellectual mind in human his, not
Shakespeare, not Plato, not even one as wise as Solomen, could even begin to contend with God, but would stand astonsihed and stunned.
Job, after just being asked a many questions by God, job could not even answer one of them and said (Job 40:4) "Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth". How much more shall all the ungodly be on that day of Judement.
With these things being said, (Genesis 18:25) "shall not the Judge of all the earth do right."
Now we are ready to examine man
With these things being said, the question is,
1) who is man, what is a natural man life when it comes to the things of truth and the things of God?
2) For natural man, what is their state of mind?
3) What does man gravitate toward, sin or righteousness?
4) Would the natural man accept the unadulterated truth, if it was presented to him?
5) Does Man need God to move upon his heart to accept the unadulterated truth and come to repentance?
Again, let use scriptural evidence, not just some bias yes or no.
Well? Let us unbiased answer these questions using scripture. "What saith the scripture" should be our question when searching for the answers.
Last edited:
OnceWasLost
Member
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2009
- Messages
- 38
That was good reading Copper, alot to think about.
i am a calvinist because i searched the scriptures it seemed to me that TULIP was the best doctrine when it came to explaining the relationship between man and god. my view is not biased based on what calvin had to say on the matter. it just happens that we agree. i am not worshiping Calvin or saying Calvin was perfect. in fact what i believe has nothing to do with the man John Calvin. what i believe, i believe because it was in the scriptures.
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Thread 'The Myth of saying that God Loved all men in the world without exception !'
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