Calvinism

[cman77]

if divine mercy was universal then everyone would be saved

 

[cman77]

HoneyBare I thank God first that I did not have the internet in my time so it was The Word of God and me. Because of influences of different opinion of people' belief it can get very confusing.

I hope you continue to read the Word of God and learn without a shadow of a doubt in what you believe. As you pray sweetie God will direct you and will not lead you in the wrong way.

she is absolutely right. never take anybody's word for it, you must look to the word of god to know what you believe, not to the word of men.

 

[jiggyfly]

if divine mercy was universal then everyone would be saved

I know thats a very upsetting thought isn't it, LOL.

But I did want to know how you interpret Romans 11:32?

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all

 

[Bambi]

well according to this translation, people and or everyone.:wink:

First things first. The word, everyone, is not found anywhere in Romans chapter 11. So in context all can’t refer to the world or everyone.

Second, the word, people, is found twice. Once in verse 1 the other in verse 2. Both times it identifies whose people, God’s people. In verse 2 it says, …his people which he foreknew…

Foreknew is the same word used in 1 Peter 1:20 as foreordained.
4267 proginosko (prog-in-oce'-ko); foreknow (ordain), know (before).
That verse is talking about Christ. God decided before the foundation of the world that Christ would die for sins. Ephesians 1:4 says we, the believers, are chosen before the foundation of the world.

Also in Romans chapter 11 it keeps referring to a remnant and the election. Doesn’t sound like the whole world to me.

Thirdly according to Romans 9:18, Paul says referring to God. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardened. Same chapter verses 21-23
Rom 9:21-23
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Again doesn’t sound universal to me.

 

[MightyAngel1]

HoneyBare this is a hard doctrine to accept.

Howdy Bambi!

Referring to Calvinism, Calvinisim is not a doctrine of the Bible. This is why Calvinism is hard to accept. As I have read your post, It took you 20 years to come to grips with this so called doctrine.

The length of time should have shown you a red flag.

Bambi--I was raised in an Armenian style church. I believed in the free-will of man. I would use 2 Peter 3:9 to refute the Calvinist I met along the way. It wasn't till I married my husband that my view changed.

Too bad. Now, You are not in line with the Holy Word of God. Secondly, Joshua in the Old Testament would be considered these days to be Armenian and a great teacher against Calvinism...

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Calvinism is another god of the Amorites. Plain and simple. God does not teach Calvinisim. This is strictly a man's interpretation of what He thinks God said.

Bambi--He never told me before we were married that he believed in election and when he did I was so mad at him.

Maybe you should reconsider being mad at him with a Godly Jealousy of proper and pure Scripture interpretation based on the Law of God. Not John Calvin way. Excuse me...John Amorite Calvin way.

Bambi--But since I believe that once married always married I was stuck. But the Lord was working in my heart when it came to election.

No, You are not stuck. You were in the conquering position according to the Bible before you changed.

Bambi--My husband told me something no one had ever said before and that was, "All doesn't mean All All the time."

I would take a gander He never told you this either. And, I take another gander that He will refuse to.

Once married always married doesn't always mean married all the time. The John Amorite Calvin's way.

Bambi--The problem with false doctrine is that they take verses out of contexts.

No kidding. What gave you that idea?

Bambi--When you read the whole 3rd chapter of 2 Peter you see that Peter is talking to believers about the end times and why Jesus is delaying his return.

Why is Jesus blamed for the delay of His return? God the Father is the only Person who knows. Matthew 24:36.

You would think that after all of this time, which really means not after all of this time, that Calvinists would get this point right.

Bambi--In 2 Peter 3:8, Peter identifies who he is talking about in verse 9, "Beloved". He is talking to believers about believers.

No He is not. If that is the case, Then all of the so called Calvinistic Elect are slacks. Do you know what a slack is? Slack means to be remiss in respect to some matter. That some matter is Salvation. Fits Calvinism perfectly.

Bambi--If you take the word beloved and place in context with verse 9 what he's saying is this.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward,(beloved) not willing that any(beloved) should perish, but that all(beloved) should come to repentance.

Translation...If you are not in the Beloved...Then God is slack toward you. Where does the Bible teach that a Perfect, Holy, Righteous, Just God is slack? John Calvin could never find that verse.

I think John Calvin's translation is more to the point.

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward (Slackers) not willing that any (Slackers) should perish, but that all (Slackers) should come to repentance. A Calvinist will never write 2 Peter 3:9 this way in my opinion. It would make them look bad. They do not want to look slack either. Fascinating isn't!

Bambi--Christ is waiting for the last elect person, chosen before the foundation of the world, Eph 1:4 to repent and turn to God.

If someone is truly chosen by God before the foundation of the world, He will not have to turn, God will turn him. Remember? This person is chosen.

Calvinism is like the Sadducees in the New Testament. The Sadducees were the high class of the Jewish people of Jesus Christ's Day. They had an attitude and everybody knew it...including Jesus Christ. Jesus called them a certain name that rubbed them the wrong way. Jesus called them hypocrites.

Matthew 15:7-9

7. Ye hypocrites, well did Isaiah prophesy of you, saying,
8. THIS PEOPLE DRAWETH NIGH UNTO ME WITH THEIR MOUTH, AND HONORETH ME WITH THEIR LIPS; BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR FROM ME.
9. BUT IN VAIN THEY DO WORSHIP ME, TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN.

What is Jesus saying here? In plain speak...Calvinism is a teaching in vain. Hello? Is anybody home?

Bambi--This is a hard thing to believe I know, it took me almost 20 years to come to grips with it. Keep searching the scripture, praying that God will reveal his truth to you. Be a Berean. Don't take my word or anyone else. See if these things be so.

Wait a minute. Wait, Wait, Wait. If what you say is true, Then why tell someone to Search the Scriptures? No body has to look.

But, You say search the Scriptures. As if to say, You are not sure yourself. Fascinating. I study the Bible so I can show the Truth of God's Holy Word. And, What you have turned to is not the Truth.

Bambi--Ps 86:11
11 Teach me thy way, O LORD; I will walk in thy truth: unite my heart to fear thy name.

I hope you follow this Biblical advice. You are going to need it.

And for the Calvinists here. I know Matt Slick and Matt Slick knows me.

 

[MightyAngel1]

you should still pray because prayer is more than just asking for things. thats not saying that you can't ask for things, but you must always remember that gods will be done and not our own

Howdy cman77!

You said this...I did not choose God, God chose meEOQ

Well, I have a question for you. Jesus said this in Mark 8:34...

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

The questions are, Who denies you for you? Who takes up your cross for you? And, Who follows after Christ for you?

If God chose you and you did not choose God, Then God must do all three actions for you.

1) God denies you for you
2) God takes up your cross for you
3) God follows after His Son for you

Hmmm...Something to think about!

 

[MightyAngel1]

the gospel doesn't offer anything to the non elect because unless you are elect you won't accept the gospel.

Howdy cman77!

This is one of the biggest problems with Calvinism. Calvinists just cannot tell who the non-elect are.

1) Abraham's Seed multiplied as the dust of the earth. Genesis 13:16
2) Abraham's Seed multiplied as the stars of the heaven. Genesis 15:4-5
3) Isaac's Seed multiplied as the stars of the Heaven. Genesis 26:4
4) Jacob's Seed multiplied as the dust of the earth. Genesis 28:14

I have a question for you. Out of this list above, Can you tell me who the non-elect are? Thanks.

 

[MightyAngel1]

Now I'm more confused than before.

So, If Calvinism is correct, then I should just give up praying for the Salvation of my dh and trust God to - what? - save or not save him?
Because what will be will be? It is soooo confusing. Which is the right way to pray?

Even with all the verses to confirm what you believe, it is still confusing. Maybe even more so. Sorry. That's just how I feel right now.

Maybe it's just not as important as I'm taking it. I don't know. I tend to get intense on stuff like this. My dh thinks I'm pretty fanatical on religion and is not worried about much. Maybe that should be the way I look at this. After all "God only knows." Where ever that came from! :shock:

Howdy Honeybare!

There is something very important I will ask that you never forget. Calvinism is a teaching of a man. Calvinism is not taught by God.

Stick with the Bible, God's Holy Word. God will never mislead you in any way. Man will all of the time when they stray away from the teachings of God. According to Jesus Christ, Calvinism is a teaching in vain. Never forget what Jesus said. Matthew 15:7-9.

God Bless You!

 

[MightyAngel1]

you should still pray because prayer is more than just asking for things. thats not saying that you can't ask for things, but you must always remember that gods will be done and not our own

Howdy cman77!

Except for intercessory prayer. The Bible teaches that the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. James 5:16. For intercessory prayer, Our faith becomes God's Will. See Mark 11:22-24.

But, There is a condition. You have to have faith and believe. You cannot doubt. Calvinism is steeped deep with doubt.

 

[MightyAngel1]

if divine mercy was universal then everyone would be saved

Howdy cman77!

No, They wouldn't. God sets before every man a Blessing and a Curse. And, Life and death. God Commands CHOOSE LIFE that thou and thy seed may live. Deuteronomy 30:19.

1) Some people CHOOSE Life and Blessing.
2) Some people CHOOSE death and cursing.

Did you know that some people just have to have death and cursing? This choice is called drama. They crave it. Everyday.

 

[MightyAngel1]

Duty comes from God.

Howdy Bambi!

No, Duty does not come from God. Doctrines come from God. Commandments come from God. Instructions come from God. See 2 Timothy 3:16.

Duty comes from within a believer. Duty comes from within because believers in Christ are commanded to be doers of the Word. Not hearers only. James 1:22 and Galatians 5:22-23.

The Duty of a Believer in Christ is to seek the Kingdom of God and His Righteousness first, and all these things will be added unto you. Matthew 6:33.

Our Duty is obedience to the Holy Word of God. Our Duty is to be obedient to God which is OUR CHOICE to make. Not God's choice to make for us.

Bambi--Matt 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

The Calvinistic version of Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all the elect, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

Bambi--John 21:17
17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

Non-elect can not be elect because what makes them non-elect is that God didn't choose them. Eph 1:4.

This statement is false. God in His infinite Wisdom made provision for my Salvation through His Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ. See John 3:16.

When I found out about that, I decided to choose Christ to be Lord of my Life. Would you like to know what Calvinism teaches? Calvinism teaches that a calvinist does not choose Christ. Does not choose God. God chooses them. And, They will tell you this with a smile.

Here is their dilemma. If they do not choose Christ before they die, They will die and send themselves to hell. Without choosing Christ, They have chosen death and cursing. And, They will never tell you this.

Bambi--And because they are non-elect they will not seek after God. Rom 3:10, 11.

These verses also include all Calvinists. Why? Because, They too, at one time in their life, were without Christ. They did not seek after God, and there were none of them considered righteous by God.

Now, They are righteous because God chose them? They don't Choose God and they don't Choose Christ. And, They are righteous? In order to be righteous, They have to accept. Otherwise, They have denied and therefore, are condemned.

Bambi--I've been told, and I'm not sure, I'll have to study this myself, but Christ's sacrifice affected the whole world just like Adam's sin affected the whole world. Romans Chapter 5. But not completely in a salvation sense.

Haven't You ever read John 1:29? Let us take a look at this verse...

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

The Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the World. All you have to do is believe what Jesus did for the World. Not just for the Elect.

Bambi--Divine Mercy universal? Where does it say that in the Bible?

Why don't you study John 1:29.

 

[pray for me]

I think the thing I don't agree most with is the predestination thing. How could a loving god pick and choose who will come to know Him and who will not? Even if He knew who would accept Him because He is all-knowing, that doesn't seem right either. If this were true, then why even put us through this whole life thing, if in the end, we will end up in Hell?

I totally agree with you Honeybare..To me, that would just seem cruel..If people were put on this earth with no hope of heaven, just to go to hell throughout eternity..That just seems cruel to me...and for the ones who is seeking Him, and hasn't found Him yet, why would, or should they even bother if they are not one of the elect?!?

 

[HoneyBare]

Thanx for your post, PrayForMe. It really helps to learn what others glean from thier studies. I am trying to decide which way is right. I also appreciated all MightyAngel said.

However, sometimes ignorance is bliss, if you know what I mean lol. Sometimes I wish I'd never been exposed to different doctrines.

Right now, I am blissfully getting closer in my relationship to Heavenly Father and it feels like a waste of time to try to figure out what I believe about this.

For sure, I will never try to explain it to dh. He would only see it as God playing His little games and that is not the point. The point is to feel the unconditional love and care He has for us; just to get a taste of that feeling is worth so much. This is what I long and pray for Norm to discover.

He is curious about what keeps my interest when I am on this site and sometimes wants to read what I am reading. But, just pray for him that He will wonder why I am so happy instead, and skip all the rest. He is not so analitical as some of us, and perhaps that is to his advantage. lol

 

[Rob Cragg]

I would like to give my understanding of Free Will to choose vs Calvanism.
God send's out the Holy Spirit or uses other means to draw people to God, now yes God Knows everything we are going to say and do before we do, but He gives us a free will to choose Him or reject Him.
Now that means we either except Jesus as our personal Lord and Savior, or we reject him.
Now let me try to explain predestined with this illustration.
Lets say there is two trains setting on two different tracks #1 has a predestination of Heaven when it starts out it is going Straight to Heaven. So if you except Jesus as you Lord and Savior you are given a free ticket through the Grace of God to get on that train and so once aboard you going to the predestination of Heaven.
Now Train #2 is predestinationed to Hell when it rolls out it's going straight to Hell and anyone who rejects Jesus Rejects God and the Holy Spirit and in the end your put on train #2 and going straight to Hell.
Now God is in some shape or manner is going to give a call to everyone as I said He now's what your choice will be, but for those who reject God when they stand before God, is going to have no excuse like to say "well I did not know or hear about this", because God can reply" oh but you did, do you remeber when your family took you to church you heard the Gospel Message then, or the time you went to the youth convention, you heard the message then, or the time your best friend who was a Christian talked to you about My Son and you pushed your friend away and told him to shut up, or you saw that Bible on the table but you never read it" and on and on.
Jesus had a free will as a man. See Mark 14:36.
I could go on for ever with example after example but I'll stop here for now, I Know my example of the two trains sounds silly, but I just like to put things in simple terms so the everyday Joe like me can make some sense out of it. I would not mind going on futher if anyone wants but not as an arguement.

 

[cman77]

everybody needs to read Romans Chapter 9

 

[jiggyfly]

First things first. The word, everyone, is not found anywhere in Romans chapter 11. So in context all can’t refer to the world or everyone.

Second, the word, people, is found twice. Once in verse 1 the other in verse 2. Both times it identifies whose people, God’s people. In verse 2 it says, …his people which he foreknew…

Foreknew is the same word used in 1 Peter 1:20 as foreordained.
4267 proginosko (prog-in-oce'-ko); foreknow (ordain), know (before).
That verse is talking about Christ. God decided before the foundation of the world that Christ would die for sins. Ephesians 1:4 says we, the believers, are chosen before the foundation of the world.

Also in Romans chapter 11 it keeps referring to a remnant and the election. Doesn’t sound like the whole world to me.

Thirdly according to Romans 9:18, Paul says referring to God. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardened. Same chapter verses 21-23
Rom 9:21-23
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Again doesn’t sound universal to me.

Are you using the Greek text?

 

[jiggyfly]

Well I have said this before and I will say it again here, both Calvinism and Arminianism are opposed in some areas so it is obvious that they can't both be right but it is very possible that they can both be wrong.:shade:

 

[Rob Cragg]

This is a subject that is one of those which could go on forever, so I think we should just all agree to disagree, there is plenty of research that can be done on-line, the main thing is through Jesus and God's grace we have salvation. I really feel if we pray for God to show us the truth he will.

 

[TomMann]

First, to the pleasure of all (I assume) I am firmly committed to the belief that God accepts, receives, and blesses with all blessings in heavenly places, any and all who comes to him with a contrite heart, humble spirit, and a knowledge of the gift of grace provided by the death burial and resurrection if His son Jesus Christ. I have no argument with any on that fact whether they be free will or free grace or any other belief. I believe that salvation is available to any such person who seeks God. My argument is not with the attributes, intentions, design, or decree of God. I believe the Gospel call goes out to all men, everywhere, without exception (from the least to the greatest). My dissent is not with who God is.

My dissent is with who man is and with his inherent nature. Man is aptly described in scripture as at enmity with God, without hope, and without spiritual understanding of God. No man seeks after God. No man desires God. We all are spiritually dead and have the selfish nature of the children of wrath. All men are without God and without hope in the world. Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. I do not believe this has changed and I believe this is supported in NT scripture. I am not convinced that Noah was totally different from all the other men on the earth at that time. The Bible says in Gen 6:9 that "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God". I believe that this perfection was imputed to Noah by God the same way Christs righteousness is imputed to his elect or there would have been no need for the statement in the previous verse of scripture which states Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. Why would man who was perfect in his generations require grace? Our only hope is in God's unmerited grace, mercy, and compassion. God's own word says he will have compassion on whom he will have compassion (God's choice).

The next question is did God impart spiritual life to all men (without exception) so they would be able to make a decision to accept or reject salvation? Or do I accept those scriptures which states that there were the names of the elect written in the Lambs Book of Life from the foundation of the world? What do I do with the book of Revelation which talks of those whose names were not written in the Lambs Book of Life from the foundations, and of their fate!

I have, through time and study, developed a great love and appreciation for what are labeled the Doctrines of Grace. I have no conception of God ever failing at anything he has determined to accomplish. I do not believe that souls are wavering between heaven or hell. God's plan for each person shall come to pass to the praise of his Glory.

I am content that God is the designer of my salvation and that His Son Jesus is the author and finisher of my faith. Nothing in my hand I bring.....

 

[cman77]

Well said ..............