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Good Post. God's word is the absolute truth, we should never argue that fact.
Calvinism
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Hi all!
Lots of confusion on this topic, so hopefully I can help (myself being a full fledged, unashamed, 5 point Calvinist! :shade
For some reason, discussions on this topic always lean towards the concept of predestination, but this isn't really helpful. The doctrines of grace (ie, nicknamed Calvinism or Reformed Theology) are less about the question of predestination and more about the question of man's deadness in sins and the necessity and sufficiency of God's grace in saving sinners.
It is a fact that all humans have free will. The question is this:
Since all men are fallen and by nature, unregenerate (spiritually dead), and separated from God, and hostile towards God, and find the gospel foolishness, will any men use their free will to incline themselves towards holiness and God and put faith in Jesus Christ?
Calvinists are convinced that the Biblical answer is no. Apart from God's grace, no human beings will savingly believe the gospel.
At this point you could say God has several options:
1) Let all human beings perish to hell by their own fault, which is just and fair of Him to do so.
2) Save all human beings (universalism)
3) Save some human beings (Biblical testimony)
Calvinists simply affirm #3: That God, rather than justly letting the entire human race perish, graciously decided to save some men, by sending Jesus Christ to die in their place, choosing them to eternal salvation, mercy, and glory, and passing over the rest, leaving them to their ways and to finally experience justice.
This is not unjust on God's part because nobody deserves to be saved to begin with. You also cannot charge God with being unfair, because "fair" would be for God to save zero people and send us all to hell.
It also cannot be argued that God simply "made salvation possible" and then left all sinners in their natural states and then sat by waiting to see what they would do. Why? Because the problem still remains that unregenerate sinners are opposed to God, hostile towards God, even hating God, and they find the gospel foolishness.
This is why Paul says in 1 Corinthians that only people that are "called" (read: the elect) will believe the gospel. Everyone else rejects it, and they reject it willingly because they are still slaves to sin and have stony hearts.
This does not hinder evangelism, quite the opposite. In fact it gives us a reason to do evangelism. We preach the gospel because we know that God works through our words to quicken sinners and give them spiritually life and bring them to Jesus. In other words, evangelism is simply the means (the tool) that God uses to accomplish the ends that He has ordained. And He gives us the great priveledge of rounding up His sheep, who Jesus tells us "will hear His voice and follow him" (Jn 10). Those who are not sheep will never believe the gospel - John 10:26. So we know for a fact that our efforts will not be in vain, because Christ's sheep WILL, without a doubt, come to faith in Him. Compare this to the Arminian (non-Calvinism) method of either changing the gospel message to make it more palatable to the human will, shaving off the rough corners, or feeling all of the pressure on your shoulders thinking that the eternal fate of human souls is all your responsibility and its up to you to give a message that is convincing enough to get a human will to "make a decision"
Arminianism can be described as bringing sinners to Jesus, as if Jesus sits still and humans do all the moving. but Calvinism gives the biblical answer and can be described as bringing Jesus to sinners. Calvinists know that when the gospel is being preached, Jesus visits sinners with salvation through the work of the Holy Spirit who converts our hearts and changes us and brings us to faith in Christ, leading us to repentance. It can never be said that we brought ourselves to faith in Christ, for that gives us room to boast that we did something good that our unbelieving neighbor didn't do. We must give all the credit for our conversion and faith in Christ to God and His grace.
This is simply the fact that Jesus doesn't merely try to save sinners, but that He actually saves them. Rather than simply passively "wooing" sinners to Himself, God actually rolls up his sleeves and works to convert us and change our hearts from stone to flesh (ezek 36:25-27, John 3:1-8) through the preaching of the gospel so that people WILL be saved. He set out to save us from eternity past (predestined), and thats exactly what he accomplished. As Paul says in Ephesians 2, God did this "because of the great love with which he loved us..."
That's what a Saviour does.
Now you know why the author of the most beloved Hymn "Amazing Grace" was a Calvinist
Lots of confusion on this topic, so hopefully I can help (myself being a full fledged, unashamed, 5 point Calvinist! :shade
For some reason, discussions on this topic always lean towards the concept of predestination, but this isn't really helpful. The doctrines of grace (ie, nicknamed Calvinism or Reformed Theology) are less about the question of predestination and more about the question of man's deadness in sins and the necessity and sufficiency of God's grace in saving sinners.
It is a fact that all humans have free will. The question is this:
Since all men are fallen and by nature, unregenerate (spiritually dead), and separated from God, and hostile towards God, and find the gospel foolishness, will any men use their free will to incline themselves towards holiness and God and put faith in Jesus Christ?
Calvinists are convinced that the Biblical answer is no. Apart from God's grace, no human beings will savingly believe the gospel.
At this point you could say God has several options:
1) Let all human beings perish to hell by their own fault, which is just and fair of Him to do so.
2) Save all human beings (universalism)
3) Save some human beings (Biblical testimony)
Calvinists simply affirm #3: That God, rather than justly letting the entire human race perish, graciously decided to save some men, by sending Jesus Christ to die in their place, choosing them to eternal salvation, mercy, and glory, and passing over the rest, leaving them to their ways and to finally experience justice.
This is not unjust on God's part because nobody deserves to be saved to begin with. You also cannot charge God with being unfair, because "fair" would be for God to save zero people and send us all to hell.
It also cannot be argued that God simply "made salvation possible" and then left all sinners in their natural states and then sat by waiting to see what they would do. Why? Because the problem still remains that unregenerate sinners are opposed to God, hostile towards God, even hating God, and they find the gospel foolishness.
This is why Paul says in 1 Corinthians that only people that are "called" (read: the elect) will believe the gospel. Everyone else rejects it, and they reject it willingly because they are still slaves to sin and have stony hearts.
This does not hinder evangelism, quite the opposite. In fact it gives us a reason to do evangelism. We preach the gospel because we know that God works through our words to quicken sinners and give them spiritually life and bring them to Jesus. In other words, evangelism is simply the means (the tool) that God uses to accomplish the ends that He has ordained. And He gives us the great priveledge of rounding up His sheep, who Jesus tells us "will hear His voice and follow him" (Jn 10). Those who are not sheep will never believe the gospel - John 10:26. So we know for a fact that our efforts will not be in vain, because Christ's sheep WILL, without a doubt, come to faith in Him. Compare this to the Arminian (non-Calvinism) method of either changing the gospel message to make it more palatable to the human will, shaving off the rough corners, or feeling all of the pressure on your shoulders thinking that the eternal fate of human souls is all your responsibility and its up to you to give a message that is convincing enough to get a human will to "make a decision"
Arminianism can be described as bringing sinners to Jesus, as if Jesus sits still and humans do all the moving. but Calvinism gives the biblical answer and can be described as bringing Jesus to sinners. Calvinists know that when the gospel is being preached, Jesus visits sinners with salvation through the work of the Holy Spirit who converts our hearts and changes us and brings us to faith in Christ, leading us to repentance. It can never be said that we brought ourselves to faith in Christ, for that gives us room to boast that we did something good that our unbelieving neighbor didn't do. We must give all the credit for our conversion and faith in Christ to God and His grace.
This is simply the fact that Jesus doesn't merely try to save sinners, but that He actually saves them. Rather than simply passively "wooing" sinners to Himself, God actually rolls up his sleeves and works to convert us and change our hearts from stone to flesh (ezek 36:25-27, John 3:1-8) through the preaching of the gospel so that people WILL be saved. He set out to save us from eternity past (predestined), and thats exactly what he accomplished. As Paul says in Ephesians 2, God did this "because of the great love with which he loved us..."
That's what a Saviour does.
Now you know why the author of the most beloved Hymn "Amazing Grace" was a Calvinist
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Member
The part I disagree with is the is the T, the U, the L, the I, and the P. I do not agree with any of it.
Member
OK
First of all, I don't agree with this God of the arminians who waves His hands in Heaven hoping somebody will accept Him somehow and make poor Jesus feel better about dying on the cross.This is not what God teaches!
Now, let's say there is no election and let's say all men are radically depraved and cannot come to God, which is true; John 6:44
Remember Lazarus who had to be made alive first in order to hear Jesus.
It is God's fault that all men are evil and all men reject God? NO.
So that's what u have without election. A whole world hating God and going to Hell.
Simple as that.
First of all, I don't agree with this God of the arminians who waves His hands in Heaven hoping somebody will accept Him somehow and make poor Jesus feel better about dying on the cross.This is not what God teaches!
Now, let's say there is no election and let's say all men are radically depraved and cannot come to God, which is true; John 6:44
Remember Lazarus who had to be made alive first in order to hear Jesus.
It is God's fault that all men are evil and all men reject God? NO.
So that's what u have without election. A whole world hating God and going to Hell.
Simple as that.
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Member
Just a few thoughts on that comment:
Sigh, predestination is based on foreknowledge of choice (Rom 8:29 , 1Pe 1:2) lest we need a large pair of scissors to shorten our bibles. Taking an extremist view of a God who calls us by grace to salvation is nothing like what you have twisted up in your post.
I certainly can give you an example of God choosing someones destiny based on their choice:
Isa 66:4 IH589 alsoH1571 will chooseH977 their delusions,H8586 and will bringH935 their fearsH4035 upon them; becauseH3282 when I called,H7121 noneH369 did answer;H6030 when I spake,H1696 they did notH3808 hear:H8085 but they didH6213 evilH7451 before mine eyes,H5869 and choseH977 that in whichH834 I delightedH2654 not.H3808
When God called, non answered so He chosetheir end plain and simple. It does not take much insight to see this principle demonstrated in scripture . Some believe it and some do not but the bible clearly says that Christ died for the sins of the whole word. Whole means whole in the original language just like it does in ours and no amount of juggling changes that.
1Jn 2:2 AndG2532 heG846 isG2076 the propitiationG2434 forG4012 ourG2257 sins:G266 andG1161 notG3756 forG4012 oursG2251 only,G3440 butG235 alsoG2532 forG4012 the sins of theG3588 wholeG3650 world.G2889
Not one is worthy and yet His Word is able to bring us to redemption, that is the power of His grace and it should never be underestimated.
Act 20:32 AndG2532 now,G3569 brethren,G80 I commendG3908 youG5209 to God,G2316 andG2532 to theG3588 wordG3056 of hisG846 grace,G5485 which is ableG1410 to build you up,G2026 andG2532 to giveG1325 youG5213 an inheritanceG2817 amongG1722 allG3956 them which are sanctified.G37
Member
God chooses some to be saved???
These elections doctrines ignore lots of scriptures, Boanerages gave some, so I won't bother.
It's the Word of God that draws, offends, Whatever ALL men. God is not Willing that anyone to perish. God is also no respecter of persons.
The preached Word causes faith!!! There is more then enough power in God's word to do this.
If God picks and chooses who gets saved, then We don't need to go preach a thing, (Draw them in??) God would be more than able to finish the Job without our help. That is just a crock to cover a broke doctrine.
God should just take everyone he choose to be saved, and let the rest of the World cook. I mean, why complain if your getting cooked, you deserved nothing anyway, Right???
Praise and Glory to God it's not this way, not even close.
Election Person: Do you know Jesus as your personal savior?
Sinner: Ummmm. I don't think so, should I?
Election Person: Well, It's been a long day,and I have witnessed to hundreds. Just so I don't waste any more time, can I ask you if you have been chosen by God to be saved?
Sinner: They way I act!!!! I would hardly think so.
Election Person: Ummm. Well, It's not about how you act, but the grace of our Lord.
Sinner: So, if I am Chosen to be saved, then I am saved?
Election Person: Sort of like that, but you have to accept Jesus as Lord. If God chooses you, then you will just have the faith to do that.
Sinner: What if I don't want saved now. Does that mean I made that choice, or Would I have listened to you and accepted right away, If I was chosen?
Election Person: I am confused now........ If you were Chosen, then you would have accepted Jesus, and I could go home and tell my wife about all the people I helped get saved.
Sinner: If People are Chosen to be saved, then why do we need YOUR help. I thought you said God chooses, not you.
Election Person: No, no, no, I help people that Got chosen, to see that God had chosen them. That way they can lead a better life. Get it?
Sinner: My life is not that bad now, I bet you waste lots of time talking to those people who God did not choose, don't you.
Election Person: (Getting upset) More than I would care to count!!!!
Sinner: So what happens if someone is chosen, but never hears about Jesus, then what? Are the still Chosen, or does God change his mind?
Election Person: Of course they are still chosen, they just don't know it yet. If God choose them, then they will be saved. Nobody can take them out of the fathers hand.
Sinner: So, why does Jesus have to get involved then?
Election Person: (Getting real mad now) I Don't know!!!!! I was just told to preach it that way.
Sinner: calm down. So what happens to someone that is not chosen, but wants to be saved.
Election Person: They would never want that, they would not have the faith. People are evil, until God puts something in them that will accept God. That makes them Chosen!!!!
Sinner: So, the Chosen are not evil? Then whats the point of you talking to me?
Election Person: I did not say that (Grrrrrrr) I just said they have the faith to accept God.
Sinner: You really need to look into some anger management.
Election Person: I was fine until I meet you!!!!
Sinner: So what happens if God does not choose them. Is there hope?
Election Person: NO, THEY ARE SCREWED!!!! THEY ARE GONNA BURN IN HELL FIRE!!!!! To bad so sad!!!!
Sinner: I was actually going to accept Jesus, until I stated to talk to you for awhile.
Election Person: YOU CAN'T!!!! Your not chosen. NO WAY!!! It's all Clear now!!!! Your gonna cook sucker!!!!
Sinner: no, I don't want to go to hell, I'll accept Jesus now. You have a prayer for that, I mean, There is a eternal hell right?
Election Person: (Walking away) Well, if there was not a eternal Hell, God is sure making one right now!!!
Jesus Is Lord.
These elections doctrines ignore lots of scriptures, Boanerages gave some, so I won't bother.
It's the Word of God that draws, offends, Whatever ALL men. God is not Willing that anyone to perish. God is also no respecter of persons.
The preached Word causes faith!!! There is more then enough power in God's word to do this.
If God picks and chooses who gets saved, then We don't need to go preach a thing, (Draw them in??) God would be more than able to finish the Job without our help. That is just a crock to cover a broke doctrine.
God should just take everyone he choose to be saved, and let the rest of the World cook. I mean, why complain if your getting cooked, you deserved nothing anyway, Right???
Praise and Glory to God it's not this way, not even close.
Election Person: Do you know Jesus as your personal savior?
Sinner: Ummmm. I don't think so, should I?
Election Person: Well, It's been a long day,and I have witnessed to hundreds. Just so I don't waste any more time, can I ask you if you have been chosen by God to be saved?
Sinner: They way I act!!!! I would hardly think so.
Election Person: Ummm. Well, It's not about how you act, but the grace of our Lord.
Sinner: So, if I am Chosen to be saved, then I am saved?
Election Person: Sort of like that, but you have to accept Jesus as Lord. If God chooses you, then you will just have the faith to do that.
Sinner: What if I don't want saved now. Does that mean I made that choice, or Would I have listened to you and accepted right away, If I was chosen?
Election Person: I am confused now........ If you were Chosen, then you would have accepted Jesus, and I could go home and tell my wife about all the people I helped get saved.
Sinner: If People are Chosen to be saved, then why do we need YOUR help. I thought you said God chooses, not you.
Election Person: No, no, no, I help people that Got chosen, to see that God had chosen them. That way they can lead a better life. Get it?
Sinner: My life is not that bad now, I bet you waste lots of time talking to those people who God did not choose, don't you.
Election Person: (Getting upset) More than I would care to count!!!!
Sinner: So what happens if someone is chosen, but never hears about Jesus, then what? Are the still Chosen, or does God change his mind?
Election Person: Of course they are still chosen, they just don't know it yet. If God choose them, then they will be saved. Nobody can take them out of the fathers hand.
Sinner: So, why does Jesus have to get involved then?
Election Person: (Getting real mad now) I Don't know!!!!! I was just told to preach it that way.
Sinner: calm down. So what happens to someone that is not chosen, but wants to be saved.
Election Person: They would never want that, they would not have the faith. People are evil, until God puts something in them that will accept God. That makes them Chosen!!!!
Sinner: So, the Chosen are not evil? Then whats the point of you talking to me?
Election Person: I did not say that (Grrrrrrr) I just said they have the faith to accept God.
Sinner: You really need to look into some anger management.
Election Person: I was fine until I meet you!!!!
Sinner: So what happens if God does not choose them. Is there hope?
Election Person: NO, THEY ARE SCREWED!!!! THEY ARE GONNA BURN IN HELL FIRE!!!!! To bad so sad!!!!
Sinner: I was actually going to accept Jesus, until I stated to talk to you for awhile.
Election Person: YOU CAN'T!!!! Your not chosen. NO WAY!!! It's all Clear now!!!! Your gonna cook sucker!!!!
Sinner: no, I don't want to go to hell, I'll accept Jesus now. You have a prayer for that, I mean, There is a eternal hell right?
Election Person: (Walking away) Well, if there was not a eternal Hell, God is sure making one right now!!!
Jesus Is Lord.
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Member
Bambi, God is merciful to the reprobate (the non elect) by not casting them immediately to hell after they sin over and over during their lives. IF God wished, God could immediately cast them justly into eternal damnation for their sins. God has been merciful to all of us, but God has redeemed and saved the non elect completely.
Whoever disagrees with calvinism should consider this: What did Jesus accomplish on the cross? Did Jesus save you? (secure your salvation?) or did Jesus make your salvation possible? (leaving you the final say?)
I believe Jesus SAVED me, in the full sense of the word. I have been crucified with Christ. I have been predestined to become conformed to the image of Christ. He paid the penalty for my sins and thus God will no longer punish me in hell. IF you think that after Jesus died on the cross you still needed to make your decision for Christ to secure your salvation and God didn't have a say in the matter, then Jesus didn't completely save you, He just made your salvation possible.
Member
I mean to say that God has redeemed and saved the ELECT completely.
Member
I would like to quote a text from Spurgeon:
"If I was asked 'Why is a man damned?' , I should answer as an arminian answers: 'He destroys himself!' I should not dare to lay man's ruin at the door of divine sovereignity. On the other hand, If I were asked: 'Why is a man saved?' I could only give the calvinistic answer: 'He is saved through the sovereign grace of God' and not at all of himself
so...
Did the worm of our corruption beget the living seed of regeneration ? Isn't it absurb to think so ? "
"If I was asked 'Why is a man damned?' , I should answer as an arminian answers: 'He destroys himself!' I should not dare to lay man's ruin at the door of divine sovereignity. On the other hand, If I were asked: 'Why is a man saved?' I could only give the calvinistic answer: 'He is saved through the sovereign grace of God' and not at all of himself
so...
Did the worm of our corruption beget the living seed of regeneration ? Isn't it absurb to think so ? "
Member
Calvinism is rather an interesting theological perspective.
I do know that Christ's atoning death was predestined from
eternity, this we can be sure of (Micah 5:2). I have not yet
found any reference in the Bible to an individual being
predetermined to salvation. Only in relation to the
predetermined event of Christ's death. There is a reference
in Romans chapter 11 to predestination but in context I think Paul is talking about the Jews. Alas the individual may not in fact be preordained to salvation. But when the passages relating
to predertimination are read in context, then yes salvation
is attained through the predetermined death of Christ.
But you can hold to whatever fine theological lean
you may have been taught. But even if you were a
professing Cavinist it may not follow that you
were predestined to salvation. So again the only
safety is found in Christ.
"What will seperate us from the Love of God...", interesting
that sin is not mentioned. Rightly so. The apostle Paul warns repeatedly that sin is deceptive and therefore the only
approach that one may take is an obsession with Christ.
He even goes so far as to say "Pray without ceasing".
Christ is the subject of this website. Christ is the core
of the bible. Christology is the theological lean that I
have, and am proud of that.
I do know that Christ's atoning death was predestined from
eternity, this we can be sure of (Micah 5:2). I have not yet
found any reference in the Bible to an individual being
predetermined to salvation. Only in relation to the
predetermined event of Christ's death. There is a reference
in Romans chapter 11 to predestination but in context I think Paul is talking about the Jews. Alas the individual may not in fact be preordained to salvation. But when the passages relating
to predertimination are read in context, then yes salvation
is attained through the predetermined death of Christ.
But you can hold to whatever fine theological lean
you may have been taught. But even if you were a
professing Cavinist it may not follow that you
were predestined to salvation. So again the only
safety is found in Christ.
"What will seperate us from the Love of God...", interesting
that sin is not mentioned. Rightly so. The apostle Paul warns repeatedly that sin is deceptive and therefore the only
approach that one may take is an obsession with Christ.
He even goes so far as to say "Pray without ceasing".
Christ is the subject of this website. Christ is the core
of the bible. Christology is the theological lean that I
have, and am proud of that.
Member
Well, after all the posts on this thread and the previous closed thread, maybe everything has been said. The "did Christ die for everybody" question seems to be a sticking point. I guess I don't see that it needs to be any trouble.
I read John 6:44 - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; ..." And, of course, Romans 9:21 - "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"
So, here goes. Christ did die for the sins of the world. His blood was sufficient for every sin to be washed away. However, those who reject Him, without His blood washing them, their sins remain. Their status as God-haters / Truth-haters remains.
To me, this seems to be the one-and-only "unforgivable sin." That is, denying the Truth that is Christ. Without Christ as Savior, all sins a person has still remain.
Kindest regards,
Gary
I read John 6:44 - "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; ..." And, of course, Romans 9:21 - "Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"
So, here goes. Christ did die for the sins of the world. His blood was sufficient for every sin to be washed away. However, those who reject Him, without His blood washing them, their sins remain. Their status as God-haters / Truth-haters remains.
To me, this seems to be the one-and-only "unforgivable sin." That is, denying the Truth that is Christ. Without Christ as Savior, all sins a person has still remain.
Kindest regards,
Gary
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Member
2 Peter 3:9
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I believe this is true! If it is true, God would not create people predestined to hell with no chance to repent.
God is merciful he gave his son for all who would repent.
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
I believe this is true! If it is true, God would not create people predestined to hell with no chance to repent.
God is merciful he gave his son for all who would repent.
Member
Beware!
Calvinism is false!
Calvinism = John Calvin -ism, hence: we read the teaching and movement of a mere man: Calvin
Calvinism is NOT The Gospel!
Calvin murdered Servetus (and/or he gave the command to do it)
John Calvin is a major false teacher!
The TULIP system that is being promoted and is the core belief of Calvin-ism = the 5-point system of TULIP and it is false!
TULIP = FALSE!
(Some Calvinists may read my post and think that maybe i am a pelagianist (or legalist) but i am not a Pelagianist nor do i promote nor support Pelagianism in any way: God Forbid! as Pelagianism is EVIL! , and so is legalism! i am AGAINST legalism and pelagianism! And so here is my opinion: i have more trouble with Pelagianism then with Calvinism! And Neither are all Calvinists always a full 5 - point calvinist, as some are not: May The LORD Teach and Help them to see for themselves that all of the 5 points are false!)
Investigate Calvin's -ism = error for yourself (guard yourself whilst doing that with prayer! look at The Word of GOD!) and do not listen to Calvinists explain Calvinism! But rather study and see yourself by The Word of GOD yourself and pray and seek GOD and see that it is false doctrine named after a man Calvin hence the name: Calvin - ism!
And man is not a robot!
God Created us with a free will to Love God, God does not force us into loving Him!
1 John 4:
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1 John 2:
2 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
BEWARE! Do not believe in Calvinism
Believe in The Lord Jesus Christ!
Calvinism is false!
Calvinism = John Calvin -ism, hence: we read the teaching and movement of a mere man: Calvin
Calvinism is NOT The Gospel!
Calvin murdered Servetus (and/or he gave the command to do it)
John Calvin is a major false teacher!
The TULIP system that is being promoted and is the core belief of Calvin-ism = the 5-point system of TULIP and it is false!
TULIP = FALSE!
(Some Calvinists may read my post and think that maybe i am a pelagianist (or legalist) but i am not a Pelagianist nor do i promote nor support Pelagianism in any way: God Forbid! as Pelagianism is EVIL! , and so is legalism! i am AGAINST legalism and pelagianism! And so here is my opinion: i have more trouble with Pelagianism then with Calvinism! And Neither are all Calvinists always a full 5 - point calvinist, as some are not: May The LORD Teach and Help them to see for themselves that all of the 5 points are false!)
Investigate Calvin's -ism = error for yourself (guard yourself whilst doing that with prayer! look at The Word of GOD!) and do not listen to Calvinists explain Calvinism! But rather study and see yourself by The Word of GOD yourself and pray and seek GOD and see that it is false doctrine named after a man Calvin hence the name: Calvin - ism!
And man is not a robot!
God Created us with a free will to Love God, God does not force us into loving Him!
1 John 4:
14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1 John 2:
2 And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
BEWARE! Do not believe in Calvinism
Believe in The Lord Jesus Christ!
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Member
Dutch: I am not a Calvinists, nor di fall into believing Arminianisn. However I am a mixture of both. But that is not my reason for responding to you.
I am concerned that many of us seen to be negative on most of the posts that we don't agree with for some reason or the other. I believe that we should be careful not offend others who do believe in Calvinism. When we are so out right positive that Calvin was a "major false teacher" saying that kills dialogue. I personally would like to know what others believe about Calvinism. Perhaps we might think how we to bring John 13:34,35 into action here. If we are to love one another, then allowing those happen to think differently a chance to say why. I think from now on I will be more considerate and allow other's respect for differences like Calvinism. Blessings Dutch.
farout
Member
Greetings, brother. I am curious as to your stand on the scripture that says, "We love Him because He first loved us." (1 John 4:19) I have always taken this to mean that we love God only because He has put His love in us first, which seems to point to predestination. What is your thought on it?
Member
Eric, I agree with this. This is not contradictory to John 6:44 and Rom 9:21.
Take 2 Peter 3:9, as you have it, and read the run up to it. He is talking to believers (beloved at 3:1) and reveals that in the last days there will be "scoffers" (3:3). He says the earth is preserved and reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. (3:7)
Now look back to 3:4, he is addressing what the scoffers/ungodly men say that nothing seems to change. What he says next to believers in 3:9 is about this apparent "nothing is happening" comment. He says God is longsuffering towards "us," -- believers -- that all should come to repentance.
Yes, none that "He has given" the Lord (none destined to be saved) will be lost. It is God holding back destruction of the old things until all the sheep are safe.
Kindest regards,
Gary
Member
Hello Glow, thanks for the reply.
I try not to hold a theological position, or should I say a grand theory of scripture.
I agree with your quotation (1 JOHN 4:19), rightly so.
There does appear to be a paradox within Calvinism.
God is love, God is Holy, God is kind, yes?
Then why does God predestine people to eternal suffering?
Through no fault of their own, before they were even born, their fate is sealed.
They are the ones who God passed over from all eternity, from before time itself ,their
destiny was sealed. This is where I experience difficulty with Calvanism Glow.
There is a logical paradox between God who is love itself and His will, as the Calvinist sees it.
Member
Freewill is not an issue in Calvinism, God's will is from eternity and is the paramount
assumption farout. Whether you make a decision or the decision is made for you, God has already
decided your fate. Whether you ultimately believe or not the destiny of any individual is set, final, decided.
Before creation occurred, the favored ones were already chosen, justified and sanctified. God exists and wills
outside of the linear human time understanding, hence the chosen, the elect are already seated with Christ.
What use is faith, if you are already elected to salvation?
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