I would ask . What is the one thing you reject must regarding Calvinism or reformed theology ?
I would ask . What is the one thing you reject must regarding Calvinism or reformed theology ?
B-A-C
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
- 11,227
Limited atonment first of all. Jesus didn't just die for some, He died for all.
It isn't God will that only "some" be saved, and other's not be saved.
1Tim 2:3; This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Tim 2:4; who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Pet 3:9; The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Unconditional grace for another.
It is possible to come up short of grace, and become defiled once again.
Heb 12:15; See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
Irresistible grace for another.
Acts 7:51; “You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
The Bible says we can resist the Holy Spirit if we really want to. In fact every time a Christian sins, they are resisting the Holy Spirit.
Gal 5:16; But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Gal 5:17; For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
The biggest and final reason would be "preservation of the Saints". There are literally dozens of verses in the Bible that say you can lose your salvation.
Mankind dead in their trespass and sin without God in this present world are absolutely powerless living in the bodies of death they cannot do the will.
The key to the power is as many as the father gives. They represented by the word "all" alone can come . As many as the father gave Jesus power to become sons of God can come not one more or less. ..
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
Philippians 2 informs it is Christ that does work in us to both reveal his will and empower mankind to perform it . Some do it with delight like Jesus other like Jonas were dragged kicking against the pricks like Paul.
A companion verse is found in Job 23 .There we are infallibly infromed That God is of one mind and always does what so ever his soul pleases . For he performs that (Philippians 2 :12-13) which he appoints to us .He alone can make our hearts soft by the water of his word the doctrines of God .
Philipians 2: 13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Job 23:12-16 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth. For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him. Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. For God maketh my heart soft, and the Almighty troubleth me:
Catholicism a hierarchy of venerable men for one teaches a person must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling sufferings even after taking their last breath with no end in sight. .
The idea that it is God who does all the work does not fit there ideology .
B-A-C
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2008
- Messages
- 11,227
Nor does it fit mine. I tend to be more Arminian/Wesleyan in nature. I believe in a synergy between Christians and God.
Php 2:12; So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
Php 2:13; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
Neither verses works as a stand alone verse. .... you have always "obeyed". Obedience indicates subservience. You can't have one without the other. Otherwise it's just forced slavery.
Work out "your salvation".. there is work you have to do, God doesn't do it all.
Yes God is working in us, yes He has plans for us. But He still doesn't do it all.
The Father gives the Son anyone who will accept Him, this verse doesn't prove limited atonement at all.
PloughBoy
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2019
- Messages
- 9,782
Let me say: this I am not a calvinist, people call me a calvinist before i even heard the name. I never even heard of such a thing called 5 points of Calvinism. But when I finally read them, I said to my self, this is what i believe. I did not know they had words for the things i believe in by reading the word, i never read the teachings of any church or christian teacher. But people called me a calvinist and a student of reformed theology" the things i believe in never came from those institutions. I just read the bible over and over and over again until i remembered everything recorded in it. na by doing so when i spoke they called me a "calvinist".
And the term you are referring too. does not mean what you think. or what you copied form someone else or your comprehension is not correct.
in Layman terms I will try to say in simple terms what "Limited Atonement" means in the 5 points, that they called "calvinism".
Laymen terms by ploughboy
"Limited Atonement" Jesus Blood has the Power to save all that exist of all souls in the World, But God KNOWS all who are not going to be saved, before The FOUNDATION of THE WORLD. So in knowing that, JESUS Atonement will only save some, those in whom He has "Predestinated". So Jesus BLLOD HAS ALL POWER TO SAVE ALL but Only A FEW will be saved!
Limited Atonement in Calvinism has never claim that JESUS BLOOD is so limited that It Has not enough POWER to SAVE the WHOLE WORLD.! "Limited Atonement" has never stated or meant that The BLOOD of GOD is so weak that IT cannot save the UNIVERSE, and every soul that has ever live. But Orthodox Calvinism, states and teaches That GOD is "SOVEREIGN" and He IS BEYOND POWER for He Creates POWER and SAVE anyone WHOM HE Please, FOR HE IS "SALVATION" And He comes under no man's doctrine and He bows down to NO ones teachings and He is Under No mans commands, And No man can define HIM. He sent his SON into The WORLD who has the power, to Save ALL, but ALL will Not Be save, And HE is "SOVEREIGN" That Means ALL! And His Will will be DONE. He is not a man He is "GOD" and what ever He wills it comes to PAST. If it does not come to past then He ain't GOD and He is Not "SOVEREIGN".
What ever GOD wants, he gets. He is GOD,,,,,, If He cannot Get, whats He wants, He ain't GOD! that means he has limited power.
I hope i put that in clear "layman" terms, that even a child could understand, even if that child understood it, but cannot find the faith, to believe it. But that Child understood what i said. For that Is good enough. Because, Faith is A gift from GOD. even to understand a belief.
So i am not telling anyone what to believe, but i explain what the term means. "Limited Atonement" means in the term The 5 points of "calvinism" which got its name At "The Synod of DORT" 1610 Remonstrance. in The defense of The "GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS CHRIST"which happen about 40 years after John Calvin's death. In which he would have been appalled to have know a Religion or a movement was name after him. He would have been "Terrified"
The Court session is available to all "Public document" is available to all to see what took place. at the "SYNOD of DORT". 1610. and how the creation of the 5 points came into being.
instead of hearing all of the here say and from mouth to mouth carriers.I read it and also have a copy in my library, I know the whole procedure, and all of the arguments that came into being, But they were after the "TRUTH" and many did not even like the teachings of The CALVIN. And they came up with The 5 Points they called Calvinism. and Drafted "T.U.L.I.P" and not in the order.
They came from around the world.
I will state this again, They call me a "calvinist", my form of study is "Theology Proper", many call me a christian, i don't. and that is the truth.
I hope that was helpful, concerning the meaning of "Limited Atonement". if not clear, you can look the creation of the term up. at the meeting at "The Synod Of DORT" The Remonstrance 1610, a copy of The Original Documents as they were presented and all arguments.
Shaolin
Active
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2021
- Messages
- 733
Shaolin
Active
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2021
- Messages
- 733
Dear @Shaolin,
In truth I hadn't heard of ANE Covenants until you mentioned it. I'll have to look into it, and with prayer try to digest it in order to come to some understanding of it. Of course it won't affect how I come to understand the Word of God by the Holy Spirit.
C4E...have you studied hermeneutics yet? Hermeneutics does not replace the place of the Holy Spirit in studying the Scriptures, what it does is confirm to us what the Holy Spirit's intended meaning of a verse says. I have heard people say before that they get their interpretation from the Spirit...yet they were deceived (I am not saying you are, I am simply stating some facts on the subject).
As for ANE covenants, this is a HUGE problem in the grass roots level of the church today. We have known about ANE covenants since the late 1890's and much research has gone into codifying exactly what they are and how they affect our understanding of Scripture. In truth - if a person is actually listening to the Holy Spirit when it comes to their interpretations of Scripture, then we find covenant only ratifies what we already know...but sadly, there are more denominations and churches out there today who not only know nothing of covenant and how it affects our interpretations of Scripture, but most denominations REFUSED to acknowledge what ANE covenants tell and show us - for no other reason than their doctrines were demonstrated to be in complete error.
One thing covenant does, just like a modern day contract, it defines and limits our interpretation of Scripture (which is where we get the "Scripture interprets Scripture" principle from), covenant gives boundaries to what we can say a verse means, and certain groups that came out of the Reformation refuse to align their doctrinal statements with the Scriptures, so they refused to incorporate ANE covenants into their hermeneutic. This is really sad, because many people out there, because of these people in control of these denominations, believe they are saved and on their way to heaven, when they have been deceived.
I can give you theological papers to read on the subject if you are really interested in reading up on them, just let me know...
Covenants are not contracts - they do have a legality to them like contracts do, but they are more than a contract. When two people enter into a covenant, it not only has the legalities that they bind themselves to each other in, but the covenant also brings them into a personal relationship...so much so that most covenant societies consider a covenant relationship to be more binding than blood relationships. But you are right in a way - covenant is based upon love, but "legal love." The love that covenant is based upon is "hesed," which is "covenant love;" and by that hesed intends that you love on the covenant partner by walking in obedience to the obligations in the covenant that you signed up for.
You are absolutely correct...Jesus is the "door" to that relationship, because God has made Christ the living new covenant according to Isaiah 42:6 and 49:8. God the Father made the Messiah His living covenant to come, which today is the New Covenant of God in Christ. When Jesus said that no man can come to the Father except through Him, He was directly implying this because He is the embodiment of the new covenant. God is not in relationship with anyone if that person is not in covenant relationship with Him. It is just like marriage (which is the only covenant we have here in the U.S.) - two people enter into a legal covenant relationship through ceremony (marriage) in order to be able to enter into a more personal and intimate relationship. It is the same with God, who made these things...we enter into covenant relationship with Him so that are qualified to enter into His presence so that we can engage Him in personal, intimate relationship.
Agreed, which is why covenant is not a contract, it is a lot more. Contracts have no personal relationship involved, while - again - covenant brings the covenanting parties into a familial relationship. If you and I covenanted with each other, your family becomes an extension of my family. In ANE covenant societies in the middle east, if your life was saved by Tom (say from drowning) and you two became blood brothers because of it (the most basic covenant rite), if you and Tom are married, then your families become one. The covenant makes the two individuals "one life lived in two beings." Your wife would also now be Tom's wife, and vice versa...because both you and he are now looked upon in that society as one life being lived out in two individuals. Of course, this is not how ANE covenants run in Israel, this was mostly in Bedouin and African societies.
Blessings!
Shaolin
Active
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2021
- Messages
- 733
ANE Covenants [Ancient Near Eastern}. I say, does it really matter. Why do i say that? answer below.
Yes, they do matter, because of false teachings, many believe they are saved and on their way to heaven when they are not...because the false doctrines they have been taught fly directly in the face of how ANE covenant principles of operation dictate that we are to interpret Scripture. For example, the false doctrine of eternal security...it is not only demonstrated as false by Scripture when one does not allow his bias to interfere with his interpretation process, but also by covenant. Covenant principle #4 states that one only has any of the gifts, promises, blessings, and benefits that God gives to us in the New Covenant AS LONG AS that person remains in covenant relationship with God. If that person ceases to remain in covenant relationship with God, then he no longer has eternal life...he has fallen off the wagon and is back on his way to eternal fire again. That is just one example...so, if Tom thinks he is on his way to heaven, but does not actively walk in obedience to God, then he is no longer abiding in the covenant of Christ, and he no longer has eternal life.
For Salvation is of "GOD" and HE could not "Swear' by any other. In others words, Salvation is not of Mankind neither is man, The AUTHOR. And Our FATHER is beyond Power, He is GOD and HIS plan has not skip a Beat, before The FOUNDATION of The WORLDS and This is all about "HIS SON" in whom HE IS well please. It is all about His SON and not us. And it is, Beyond The Finite mind and wrap up completely In" The MIND of GOD" For HE is CREATING A "GIFT" for HIS SON! That will be "MANIFESTED" Throughout ETERNITY" There is nothing more or Less' Nothing hidden, it is About HIS SON! SHOWING ALL ETERNITY How MUCH HE LOVES HIM! AND this Truth is plainly showed and Reveal through Jesus, The Christ of GOD, Even wrap up in The CANON of SCRIPTURE even The 66 Books. Reveal to whom He please.
While what you say is truth, what if there is a hint of falseness beneath those claims? For example, it is not "all about Christ," that is not truth. According to Scripture, the cross provides atonement for those who come to God on His terms, for cleansing from sin and forgiveness...the cross does NOT take anyone to heaven. That is not its purpose, and Scripture does not teach that nonsense anywhere. The cross provides atonement for salvation, then we enter into the state of eternal life in Christ (as long as we continue to walk in obedience to Him), and the purpose of eternal life is to qualify you to enter into God's very presence for personal relationship...
John 17:3*
This is the purpose for eternal life; so that they can come to know You personally, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
(The "*" indicates that this is a direct translation from the Greek and its grammar, which most English translations ignore for their word-for-word renderings.) The only way to come to know God personally, is by spending time with Him in worship and prayer, which most religious people don't do because they think they are "good" just because they believe. Jesus says a number of places that unless we come to know Him (and vice versa) then He will say to us, "go away from Me, into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
In short, the cross and salvation is not the end of the matter according to an accurate understanding of Scripture, it is just the beginning.
So I say, given it your best shot, and read , discover on Until Heavens Throne!
Ah...but you were, and still are, ignorant of the full revelation of God in Scripture. And that is why God told Daniel that knowledge of the Scriptures would increase in the last days. Scripture also tells us that...
Psalm 25:14*
Yahweh reveals His covenant to those who reverence Him, to those who have close intimate relationship with Him.
So, those who enter into His presence and engage Him in personal, intimate relationship, come to know and understand Scripture even without the benefit of covenant knowledge. The problem (or part of the problem anyway) is that religious people think they know it all, and the other part is that when the full understanding of covenant came to the church over 100 years ago - religious people in charge of denominations refused to acknowledge the fact of covenant and that the NT is NOT a testament...it is patterned after ANE covenants. And being as such - by God's ordination - the NT Scriptures are bound to the covenant principles of operation, which I gave you an example of above. So...those who really don't care about engaging God in personal relationship have been left in the dark to a certain extent, because they really don't care...while those who do hunger and thirst for relationship with God, He has made His covenant known to them.
And I will Not :Recant.
I will not say anything to you, "sir." You have been given the facts as they are, and it is up to you to amend what you claim to believe according to those facts, or suffer the consequences when you stand before God. But I will say that you do seem to write with an air of conceit in your words. Just saying.
Blessings!
Shaolin
Active
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2021
- Messages
- 733
Yes, indeed! On that last point, I just completed a 175 page paper on the fallacy of eternal security, where I examined in detail 94 verses and passages...not one of them actually says what certain groups claim that they say. Not one.
Blessings!
Shaolin
Active
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2021
- Messages
- 733
Yes, indeed...many hold to calvinist doctrines without knowing that it is calvinism.
And I will also say, that no person who holds to calvinist teachings came to those beliefs by themselves - they were taught those beliefs by someone. Why do I say that? Because no one can come to believe calvinist nonsense doctrines simply from reading the Bible - for the simple fact that those doctrines are not taught in Scripture...anywhere.
They are not learned, they are taught.
Particularly anyone who has studied hermeneutics and has been taught how to study Scripture accurately. There simply is not actual evidence for any of the doctrines taught within calvinism (with the exception that Jesus is God in the flesh...after that, the entire religion goes downhill).
Blessings
Shaolin
Active
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2021
- Messages
- 733
in Layman terms I will try to say in simple terms what "Limited Atonement" means in the 5 points, that they called "calvinism".
Laymen terms by ploughboy
"Limited Atonement" Jesus Blood has the Power to save all that exist of all souls in the World, But God KNOWS all who are not going to be saved, before The FOUNDATION of THE WORLD. So in knowing that, JESUS Atonement will only save some, those in whom He has "Predestinated". So Jesus BLLOD HAS ALL POWER TO SAVE ALL but Only A FEW will be saved!
Limited Atonement in Calvinism has never claim that JESUS BLOOD is so limited that It Has not enough POWER to SAVE the WHOLE WORLD.! "Limited Atonement" has never stated or meant that The BLOOD of GOD is so weak that IT cannot save the UNIVERSE, and every soul that has ever live. But Orthodox Calvinism, states and teaches That GOD is "SOVEREIGN" and He IS BEYOND POWER for He Creates POWER and SAVE anyone WHOM HE Please, FOR HE IS "SALVATION" And He comes under no man's doctrine and He bows down to NO ones teachings and He is Under No mans commands, And No man can define HIM. He sent his SON into The WORLD who has the power, to Save ALL, but ALL will Not Be save, And HE is "SOVEREIGN" That Means ALL! And His Will will be DONE. He is not a man He is "GOD" and what ever He wills it comes to PAST. If it does not come to past then He ain't GOD and He is Not "SOVEREIGN".
What ever GOD wants, he gets. He is GOD,,,,,, If He cannot Get, whats He wants, He ain't GOD! that means he has limited power.
I hope i put that in clear "layman" terms, that even a child could understand, even if that child understood it, but cannot find the faith, to believe it. But that Child understood what i said. For that Is good enough. Because, Faith is A gift from GOD. even to understand a belief.
So i am not telling anyone what to believe, but i explain what the term means. "Limited Atonement" means in the term The 5 points of "calvinism" which got its name At "The Synod of DORT" 1610 Remonstrance. in The defense of The "GOSPEL ACCORDING TO JESUS CHRIST"which happen about 40 years after John Calvin's death. In which he would have been appalled to have know a Religion or a movement was name after him. He would have been "Terrified"
The Court session is available to all "Public document" is available to all to see what took place. at the "SYNOD of DORT". 1610. and how the creation of the 5 points came into being.
As I said earlier, which I can demonstrate with the facts, not one of these doctrines are valid in the way calvinism presents them. There is a valid doctrine of atonement, the sovereignty of God, and so forth, but in calvinism all those valid doctrines become perversely mutilated by assigning to specific verses subjective interpretations, by taking them out of their contexts and "proof-texting" them to say what the calvinist wants them to say.
Anyway, I won't go any further here. If you want to discuss a particular false doctrine of calvinism, we can start a thread just for that cause and then present the facts regarding it.
Blessings
PloughBoy
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2019
- Messages
- 9,782
King James Bible
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
New King James Version
For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.
to each man his own, God will judge every mans position whether they be of GOD or not.
I will not bow to "Heresies"
King James Bible
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
And he will judge.
Anymore names you want to call me, or label me for the fields are open. and I wear your views of me and where I stand as a "Badge of Honor" even when your words approach me at the Judgement. seat. for your words will attack me there too.
so says The Word of the LIVING GOD.And O' how sweet , will your words be.
Thank you Jesus! How sweet he is. Hallelujah! sweet Jesus, Oh How good he is, YES THANK YOU JESUS! YES!, and I am Snapping my Fingers and Shaking my HEAD! Wooooo yes. Thank you LORD.
PloughBoy
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2019
- Messages
- 9,782
I am enjoying my Father and His Son, Yes, And to me all those doctrine of mankind does not really matters to me, For God can take care of His own Truth. and He is able to defend His own. GOD did not save me to bicker about "what GOD is And What He is not " The whims of mankind and his thoughts on "religions" thinking and man made doctrine. to me, why waste so much previous time when you could be in the very Presence of God the Father and have fellowship with his SON. and bathe in HIS Glory. , right now! But i guess many can find a better place to be. And not long for His Glorious fellowship on earth. Within the confounds of ones being. For It cannot be no better place than this on earth. Communing With you Heavenly Father. For Calvin was so right.. For there is no other place on earth.
How can this be! feeling the Glory of God, even now! "Come Taste and see" LORD JESUS" HALLELUJAH!.... "He ANOINTS my Head" in the Presence of My enemies" and My Cup runs over"! Thank You JESUS, How can this be! YES HALLELUJAH!
I HOPE you are enjoy yourself, I do not Know about you. But the Oil is soothing my SOUL! "KOINONIA"
Shaolin
Active
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2021
- Messages
- 733
King James Bible
For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
New King James Version
For there must also be factions among you, that those who are approved may be recognized among you.
to each man his own, God will judge every mans position whether they be of GOD or not.
I will not bow to "Heresies"
King James Bible
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
And he will judge.
Anymore names you want to call me, or label me for the fields are open. and I wear your views of me and where I stand as a "Badge of Honor" even when your words approach me at the Judgement. seat. for your words will attack me there too.
And O' how sweet , will your words be.
Thank you Jesus! How sweet he is. Hallelujah! sweet Jesus, Oh How good he is, YES THANK YOU JESUS! YES!, and I am Snapping my Fingers and Shaking my HEAD! Wooooo yes. Thank you LORD.
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!
Almost fell out of my chair!!! Well...I do find it amusing that you quote II Timothy 2:15 yet it is quite obvious that you either have not studied Scripture, or that you don't know how to study Scripture. Amusing indeed!!!
Have fun with yourself, ploughboy...
Shaolin
Active
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2021
- Messages
- 733
That is quite interesting...I have never had someone turn and say, "God, take care of your truth, defend your own truth," before. Quite a head scratcher, and quite amusing, at the same time. My grandmother used to say, "If what you hold to is truth, then it defends itself. Only false doctrine needs to be defended, because it is based upon twistings of Scripture." Granny knew what she was talking about...but apparently you do not.
The whims of mankind and his thoughts on "religions" thinking and man made doctrine. to me, why waste so much previous time when you could be in the very Presence of God the Father and have fellowship with his SON. and bathe in HIS Glory. , right now! But i guess many can find a better place to be. And not long for His Glorious fellowship on earth. Within the confounds of ones being. For It cannot be no better place than this on earth. Communing With you Heavenly Father. For Calvin was so right.. For there is no other place on earth.
How can this be! feeling the Glory of God, even now! "Come Taste and see" LORD JESUS" HALLELUJAH!.... "He ANOINTS my Head" in the Presence of My enemies" and My Cup runs over"! Thank You JESUS, How can this be! YES HALLELUJAH!
Wow...you know, the more you speak, the more light shines through all of the holes.
Have fun, I will say no more, because there's really nothing else to say...you have demonstrated your soul.
..
PloughBoy
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2019
- Messages
- 9,782
I am beyond Fun, I am in the arms of My "LORD"
ALL day and do believe all through night Lord have mercy.
Shaolin
Active
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2021
- Messages
- 733
I am beyond Fun, I am in the arms of My "LORD"
PloughBoy
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2019
- Messages
- 9,782
It does not matter when GOD the FATHER has covered you and drape you in His precious being., it cannot get this good this you cannot buy with all the money silver and Gold and all the DIAMONDS that the world can contained.!
Precious Oil.
PloughBoy
Loyal
- Joined
- Dec 2, 2019
- Messages
- 9,782
It does not matter.
