Can our salvation in Christ Jesus ever be jeopardised?
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Sorry if I misunderstood you, because I hear from this that Jesus didn't come to free me (for example, by saving me from ignorance with which I was born), but to enslave me instead.
Let us recall that all living things have no choice but being guided by various pre-programmed instructions, embedded by their Creator in their living structure. In other words, they are all created with a robotic nature.
This applies on humans too with one exception. A human may have the freedom to oppose/defeat the natural robotic nature of his living flesh and be an image of God's Love and join, therefore God's realm while he is on earth and after death. Jesus gave me a real example about this when He was captured, tortured and crucified in the name of justice while he had all the means to avoid all his sufferings.
For instance, in human's history, Jesus only who was unarmed, and no one dared to stand with Him, scared an 'entire' nation to the point its honorable Elders ended up asking for His death at any price. This didn't happen anytime with someone else.
Finally, if someone couldn't oppose his robotic nature, anytime in his life, he will end up returning back to the state of nothingness (the state before birth) as it is the case of all other living things (Jesus is also clear about this).
Curtis
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There is no lawlessness in the Kingdom of God and of light.
Curtis
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No one can be saved without the shedding of the blood of Jesus on the cross. No one could be set free without Jesus breaking the power of sin on the cross.
I admit that I used to hear this, from many humans, but not from Jesus.
So, I invite you to help me know from which Jesus' sayings (said by Jesus, not by anyone else) one deduces that someone can gain something for his soul by an act done by another, Jesus or else.
Meanwhile, I know that Jesus suffered for me. But He did it not to save my soul by a sort of magic, but to show me how to live if I want to feed my soul and let is survive for eternity. For example:
Matt 10:38 "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
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If you can do it all yourself, then why do you need Jesus at all? If Jesus's sacrifice didn't cover your sins, why did He even need to die?
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Jesus said.......
Joh 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.
Without Jesus you can do nothing, not even believing can be gained on your own as faith only comes from the Word!! Everyone must have the faith "of" Jesus before anyone can believe "in" Jesus!!
Jesus said.......
Joh 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
No one can or ever come to Jesus for salvation unless the Father draws him to Jesus!!
Jesus said........
Joh 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Without Jesus laying down his life no one can have eternal life.
Jesus said.....
Joh_10:15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
Thank you for raising this very important point.
The greatest weakness that a human may have in his life is being ignorant. And every human baby (including the baby I was) is born having this weakness (known to the kids of humanity, our past ancestors, as the 'Original Sin').
In the material world, a loving parent tries his/her best to help his/her kids to get all necessary knowledge for their future life (when adults) while they grow up. No one can deny that gaining good and useful knowledge is worth more than anything else. And it happens that I realized this truth soon after my father died (when I was 9). Since then, I used to get/steal every scientific idea that could be useful in my life (at school then at university) to help me gain my daily bread while being free/independent from serving (having a job under) any direction which, naturally, should be headed by certain rich families (Jesus' rich man
). So, after I got enough scientific knowledge, I was able to start a small private business (with a capital of $100) in designing and producing electronic products for the local consumers (that was in 1975). And despite of all happenings/crises in the world and in my city, the knowledge I got helps me gain my daily bread and of my few assistants till now."Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God."
Not in vain Jesus (the Living Word of God) said this.
Without having good/true knowledge about how to feed also my living soul, it would surely die in me, and I became just another living thing that can survive by bread for a certain period of time, till it will return back to dust.
Truth be said, I used to be really surprised how almost no one in the world talks about the 'Heavenly Knowledge' for which Jesus came/incarnated to save humans from ignorance (again, the 'Original Sin' with which every human baby is born) and help them be aware of the existence of God's Realm of Love. Naturally, no man can be perfect in teaching the 'Heavenly Knowledge' as Jesus did (Son of God... One may like reading its meaning in "Is it really hard to understand the expression ‘Son of God’").
But if someone cannot freeze his robotic nature by opposing the material preprogrammed instructions embedded (also by God) in his living flesh (instincts), he doesn't need to learn anything from Jesus. But this doesn't prevent him to use His name with well-prepared tales made about Him to gain various earthly things, besides man's honor.
Now, the very important question is:
For which reason Jesus planned to die the way He did?
I think it is time to answer this question in detail since it is of a great importance even after 2000 years and it is also related directly to all-time 'Knowledge' that Jesus brought to the world. I will try to prepare it for a new thread whose title will likely be "Why Jesus Liked to Die the Way He Did?"
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All these sayings are very true.
In fact, without the 'Heavenly Knowledge' I got from Jesus Christ (that no man can, or is able to, provide) my soul would have died since very long (since I was teen) and I become just another very intelligent living thing, which is created to serve the material world only, by building and/or destroying it, till its living flesh returns back to dust.
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Subject Heading:- Can our salvation in Christ Jesus ever be jeopardised?
Hello @B-A-C,'Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine,
Oh what a foretaste of glory divine,'
That assurance is so precious, and your entry (above) entered my heart and brought a chill with it, like a lead weight which has settled in the pit of my stomach. I can understand now why Paul told Timothy not to enter into the arguments surrounding him in Ephesus, but to study to show himself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of Truth. For your words have eaten like a canker (2 Tim. 2:17) .
I am going to do what Timothy instructed Paul to do. I am going to leave and concentrate of the word of Truth, for only within it's pages, in Christ Jesus, will I find the warming balm that will replace the chill your words have engendered.
In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Chris
Once, a Priest told me that his submission freely to the Will of God makes him feel great. I believed him because this is a natural fact which also exists in the material world among humans.
The act of a 'free/deliberate' submission to the will of another gives, by itself, sort of deep pleasant sensations, in certain situations/adventures, even without doing anything, Sorry, I can't go further. I hope you know what I mean.
Since I don't live this sort of free submission in my life with anyone, I didn't mind sometimes to live it towards God's Will and feel great sensations deep in me, mainly while listening certain musical inspiring tunes. This is how I realized very well, since long, why the believers in every religion don't mind, if not look for, being gathered in certain places to live/express together their submission to the will of God (they are familiar to), I mean; no one can convince anyone of these various believers that God he/she knows is not real. Every one of them (despites their clear differences) would say: I feel a great joy, deep in me, anytime I live/express my total submission to the Will of God, I know... How could I believe that my God is not true?!
Kerim
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The act of a 'free/deliberate' submission to the will of another gives, by itself, sort of deep pleasant sensations, in certain situations/adventures, even without doing anything, Sorry, I can't go further. I hope you know what I mean.
Since I don't live this sort of free submission in my life with anyone, I didn't mind sometimes to live it towards God's Will and feel great sensations deep in me, mainly while listening certain musical inspiring tunes. This is how I realized very well, since long, why the believers in every religion don't mind, if not look for, being gathered in certain places to live/express together their submission to the will of God (they are familiar to), I mean; no one can convince anyone of these various believers that God he/she knows is not real. Every one of them (despites their clear differences) would say: I feel a great joy, deep in me, anytime I live/express my total submission to the Will of God, I know... How could I believe that my God is not true?!
Kerim
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B-A-C
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That's a great hymn, we sing it from time to time. However, those words aren't in the Bible.
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While reading the word this morning this thread kept popping in my mind. First I do not hold one position or another on the subject of OSAS, but I lean towards more of the position that you can lose salvation. So for those who say you can not lose salvation. I have a question about 1 Corinthians 9-27
1 Corinthians 9-27
27. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
What do you think Paul is concerned about becoming disqualified from? what is that would make him disqualified?? I see the imperishable crown, being a representation of eternal life, and Paul seems to think he better stay disciplined or he could lose it.
1 Corinthians 9-27
24. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may https://biblehub.com/nkjv/1_corinthians/9.htm#footnotesobtain it. Striving for a Crown
25. And everyone who competes for the prize [j]is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
26. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
I think we would all agree that un-repented sin would make him disqualified, but I think where we would disagree is what he is being disqualified from. I think many would say rewards, and I say salvation.
When I read in Ezekiel 33, God who does not change, who is the same yesterday and today says. in verse 13 of Ezekiel 33,, God says nothing he has done will be remembered, and says he will die, when God says "die" I take that to mean the person has no salvation, no eternal life.
Then we have verse 16 where God says that he will surely "live", I take that to mean eternal life salvation
Ezekiel 33
13. If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but he then trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, then none of his righteous works will be remembered; he will die because of the iniquity he has committed.
Ezekiel 33
14. But if I tell the wicked man, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and does what is just and right—
15. if he restores a pledge, makes restitution for what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without practicing iniquity—then he will surely live; he will not die.
16. None of the sins he has committed will be held against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live.
1 Corinthians 9-27
27. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
What do you think Paul is concerned about becoming disqualified from? what is that would make him disqualified?? I see the imperishable crown, being a representation of eternal life, and Paul seems to think he better stay disciplined or he could lose it.
1 Corinthians 9-27
24. Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may https://biblehub.com/nkjv/1_corinthians/9.htm#footnotesobtain it. Striving for a Crown
25. And everyone who competes for the prize [j]is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown.
26. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air.
27. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
I think we would all agree that un-repented sin would make him disqualified, but I think where we would disagree is what he is being disqualified from. I think many would say rewards, and I say salvation.
When I read in Ezekiel 33, God who does not change, who is the same yesterday and today says. in verse 13 of Ezekiel 33,, God says nothing he has done will be remembered, and says he will die, when God says "die" I take that to mean the person has no salvation, no eternal life.
Then we have verse 16 where God says that he will surely "live", I take that to mean eternal life salvation
Ezekiel 33
13. If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but he then trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, then none of his righteous works will be remembered; he will die because of the iniquity he has committed.
Ezekiel 33
14. But if I tell the wicked man, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and does what is just and right—
15. if he restores a pledge, makes restitution for what he has stolen, and walks in the statutes of life without practicing iniquity—then he will surely live; he will not die.
16. None of the sins he has committed will be held against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live.
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The Apostle Paul made sure that what he said and did was not according to his flesh, which is why he kept his body under control by the power of the Holy Spirit. If he did not do this, when he preached the Gospel to others he would be "disqualified" to teach anything. The power of the Gospel is only released by those who are living the Gospel. There are "qualifications" one must have to be an elder in the Church which Paul gave to Timothy. If someone does not have these qualifications, then they are "disqualified" to be in the ministry. Not keeping one's body (flesh, emotions) in check disqualifies anyone from proclaiming the good news.
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Thanks for the reply, Curtis!
The Bible also says Jesus will remove our lampstand from its place, this was said while Jesus was correcting a church in revelation. What could he be speaking about if it was not eternal life? Then just a few verses in that same chapter, Jesus talks about granting the right to those who overcome to eat from the Tree of Life. It seems to me that the Tree of Life is also a representation of eternal life. And overcoming is repenting of sin.
So it seems Jesus is speaking in figurative language about losing one's eternal life because they do not repent from sin. Or granting them the right to eternal life once they have endured to the end. It's always about enduring to the end.
What better trickery from the devil would it be to get this osas doctrine out and make people a little too comfortable in their salvation and behold they stop doing what they did before (when they were on fire for the lord), but because they believe in osas they get comfortable and stop doing what they did, and now Jesus is warning them us if they do not get that fire of LOVE back in there belly for the lord, they will not have the right to eat from the tree of life.
To the Church in Ephesus Revelation 2
4. But I have this against you: You have abandoned your first love.
5. Therefore, keep in mind how far you have fallen. Repent and perform the deeds you did at first. But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
6. But you have this to your credit: You hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to eat from the tree of life in the Paradise of God.
OSAS is a very dangerous doctrine whether true or not, How we live matters, and doing things matters, NO NO they do not save us, but they shape us and help us grow in Christ, if we get comfy and stop doing things at best we won't grow in Christ and at worst we could fall away and lose salvation. I know from my personal experience that I do what I do for the Love of God, but when I do not feel like doing something I do it for the fear of falling away. The Bible talks about a great falling away in the end times, now to me falling away means you had something and lost it. You were in and you fell out. You have had to have it if you fell away.
I have never believed anyone who says those who fall away were never really saved, that makes no sense whats so ever to me. Because if they were never saved they could not fall away from anything. Hebrews 6 clearly describes saved people who have been enlightened and have had the Holy Spirit who fell away. These people have lost the right to eat from the tree life their lamp stand has been removed in my mind.
The Bible also says Jesus will remove our lampstand from its place, this was said while Jesus was correcting a church in revelation. What could he be speaking about if it was not eternal life? Then just a few verses in that same chapter, Jesus talks about granting the right to those who overcome to eat from the Tree of Life. It seems to me that the Tree of Life is also a representation of eternal life. And overcoming is repenting of sin.
So it seems Jesus is speaking in figurative language about losing one's eternal life because they do not repent from sin. Or granting them the right to eternal life once they have endured to the end. It's always about enduring to the end.
What better trickery from the devil would it be to get this osas doctrine out and make people a little too comfortable in their salvation and behold they stop doing what they did before (when they were on fire for the lord), but because they believe in osas they get comfortable and stop doing what they did, and now Jesus is warning them us if they do not get that fire of LOVE back in there belly for the lord, they will not have the right to eat from the tree of life.
To the Church in Ephesus Revelation 2
4. But I have this against you: You have abandoned your first love.
5. Therefore, keep in mind how far you have fallen. Repent and perform the deeds you did at first. But if you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.
6. But you have this to your credit: You hate the works of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
7. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who overcomes, I will grant the right to eat from the tree of life in the Paradise of God.
OSAS is a very dangerous doctrine whether true or not, How we live matters, and doing things matters, NO NO they do not save us, but they shape us and help us grow in Christ, if we get comfy and stop doing things at best we won't grow in Christ and at worst we could fall away and lose salvation. I know from my personal experience that I do what I do for the Love of God, but when I do not feel like doing something I do it for the fear of falling away. The Bible talks about a great falling away in the end times, now to me falling away means you had something and lost it. You were in and you fell out. You have had to have it if you fell away.
I have never believed anyone who says those who fall away were never really saved, that makes no sense whats so ever to me. Because if they were never saved they could not fall away from anything. Hebrews 6 clearly describes saved people who have been enlightened and have had the Holy Spirit who fell away. These people have lost the right to eat from the tree life their lamp stand has been removed in my mind.
Hebrews 6:4-6
4. It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
5. who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age—
6. and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.
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While I certainly agree with you on the subject of eternal security of the believer, I have to perhaps disagree on Hebrews 6. Those were Jews who once were converted to Christianity turned back to sacrificing animals.
I don’t believe there is any sin that cannot be forgiven,excluding blasphemy of the Holy Ghost.
As you word your reply,if one backslides, there can be no forgiveness,that they are eternally lost from that one mishap. Scripture does not teach that at all.
If we sin,we have an advocate with the Father.
Scripture does not contradict itself. Something is misconstrued somewhere.
How many times does one have to sin before no return? Once? Then no one will make it.
The more you grow in the fruit of the Spirit,the less you sin.
If not you were a washed sowell from the beginning
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Dave M
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Excellent point thanks for pointing that out !! I agree with you and the word
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Greetings in the Lord,
When his disciples asked, how many times shall we forgive our brother? Jesus said 70x7.
Does anyone here understand the blood of Jesus?
How it covers us, blotting out our sins; past, present and future.
He chastens those He loves; He will not leave you, nor forsakes you. It is by choice, alone, if one continues to wallow in their own sins, hence creating more on themselves, on Him. I thought you said you love Him.
And if one professing Christ, but continues to go about self and sin life, then one may perhaps come to understand what it means to fear the Lord.
If ones life was so perfect in this world, why did they fall at the cross?
Do you not know you are dead in Him?
Do you not know His blood bleeds all over you, He is in your veins?
Do you not know you rose up a new creation, being resurrected a new creation in Him, by Him, for Him?
You see the old man has passed away and has been resurrected from hell, sin and death. Eternal life began; now
being transformed and renewing your mind, by washing of water by the Word.
Now put on Christ;
Our life is not our own, it belongs to God.
All praise glory and honor be unto God. Amen
When his disciples asked, how many times shall we forgive our brother? Jesus said 70x7.
Does anyone here understand the blood of Jesus?
How it covers us, blotting out our sins; past, present and future.
He chastens those He loves; He will not leave you, nor forsakes you. It is by choice, alone, if one continues to wallow in their own sins, hence creating more on themselves, on Him. I thought you said you love Him.
And if one professing Christ, but continues to go about self and sin life, then one may perhaps come to understand what it means to fear the Lord.
If ones life was so perfect in this world, why did they fall at the cross?
Do you not know you are dead in Him?
Do you not know His blood bleeds all over you, He is in your veins?
Do you not know you rose up a new creation, being resurrected a new creation in Him, by Him, for Him?
You see the old man has passed away and has been resurrected from hell, sin and death. Eternal life began; now
being transformed and renewing your mind, by washing of water by the Word.
Now put on Christ;
Our life is not our own, it belongs to God.
All praise glory and honor be unto God. Amen
Curtis
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Before you were saved did you ever hear the salvation message either from a person or in a group setting as in the Church service?
I know I did many times in the past. As I heard the Gospel message I was well aware of the anointing of God. I was being made a partaker of the good Word of God. I was tasting and sensing the power of the Kingdom of God. Did I give my heart to Jesus at that time? No, i did not, but I remember it clearly to this day. My life was still producing thorns that come from not being born again. Every time I heard the same Gospel message I sensed the same things fall upon me. I knew what I heard was right and I needed salvation. That is exactly how the Holy Spirit works on people who are not saved.
Even born-again people who are already saved sense, and experience the same anointing.
The writer of the Book of Hebrews wanted to make sure those who were reading this passage to not misunderstand what he was saying.
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
Heb 6:7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
Heb 6:8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.
The word 'for" means, "because" in verse seven. Because of what? The whole meaning of the previous verses is found in the last couple of verses.
If a person is constantly hearing the Gospel message and experiencing the power of God's Kindom, tasting the good word of God, being enlightened into the ways of God, being made partakers of the Holy Spirit (by which all theses are coming), and yet in their life they are only producing nothing but thorns and thistles then their end is to be cast into the fire.
It is impossible to bring them back as God will NOT provide them anything else to prove that they need salvation.
Mat 5:45 In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike.
