Can our salvation in Christ Jesus ever be jeopardised?

[B-A-C]

My sins have been forgiven, and I have been accepted in the Beloved. I am indeed 'Complete' in Christ. Not because of anything that I have done, but because of the all-sufficient sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ on my behalf.

Again, I think we are confusing two things here. No one is arguing that people get completely saved. If people couldn't get "completely" saved, then no one would ever be saved.
The question is, does everyone "stay" saved?

A house can be finished, just to be burned up or demolished later. A car can be restored to car-show quality, just to be wrecked later. A person can have their heart changed, and be turned to God, but...

2Pet 2:20; For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
2Pet 2:21; For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
2Pet 2:22; It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

The question isn't, does God have to power to save them completely, but rather do they have the power to fall away afterwards.

1Tim 4:1; But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,

1Tim 1:19; keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.

 

[lentz]

All born again children of God are growing into the person they already are in Christ.

How can you grow into something if you are already what you are growing in to?
If you’re there,you’re there

This is the classic definition of double talk

 

[Curtis]

How can you grow into something if you are already what you are growing in to?
If you’re there,you’re there

This is the classic definition of double talk

Are you in Christ right now? If you are then you must be perfect in Christ right now as God is light and in him there can be no darkness. Believers are becoming (growing) into what God has already finished from the beginning In His Son.

Mat 5:48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

 

[lentz]

Are you in Christ right now? If you are then you must be perfect in Christ right now as God is light and in him there can be no darkness. Believers are becoming (growing) into what God has already finished from the beginning In His Son.

Mat 5:48 But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect.

Yes, but not perfect yet are we

 

[KerimF]

As long I succeed to live God's Unconditional Love towards all others (good and evil), my soul is fed continuously towards God's Realm of Love while I feel the great joy of being able to oppose, if not defeat for good, the natural robotic nature of my living flesh; the robotic nature that all living things are created of and have to be guided by their pre-programmed embedded instincts or the like.
And thank to Jesus only (I knew Him directly from the today's Gospel), I was able to get all knowledge I was looking for to know how to feed my soul and let it survive now and for eternity while I live in the material world.
Naturally, I am no more of this world (always thanks to Jesus) since I realized that I don't need to defend my mortal flesh (this opposes its instincts of survival), to judge others (this opposes its instincts of superiority and applying man's justice on others) and to worship the mammon (this opposes its instincts of selfishness)... etc.

Please note that this is just about me and the all-knowledge Jesus I knew,

Kerim
An independent student of Jesus

 

[complete]

Everyone has room for improvement. No one is perfect but Christ alone.
His sacrifice is a finished work. We are work in progress.

Hello @lentz,

According to God's perspective, in Christ Jesus believers are already complete in Him. For we have died with Christ, were buried, quickened and raised with Him and are now seated with Him at God's right hand in spirit. We are to reckon as God reckons, and walk in newness of life before Him, in Christ Jesus our Lord. This is a faith position. We are to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God, through Christ Jesus our risen and glorified Saviour, Lord and Head.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Curtis]

Yes, but not perfect yet are we

Heb 10:14 For by that one offering he forever made perfect those who are being made holy.

God has already made perfect those who are being made holy.

Perfect in Christ right now yes. Being made holy in this life growing in holiness.

 

[B-A-C]

This is a faith position. We are to reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,

I am curious if you have scripture to back this up? Not that we should be dead to sin, ( Rom 6:11-13; ) but that we are dead to simply because of faith and not obedience.

 

[KerimF]

I have no doubt that, in these days, billions around the world have real faith in Jesus Christ as their Saviour. So, I wonder why Jesus said very clearly:
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Since billions were able to find it (as they believe), it seems that these billions also see Jesus somehow exaggerating in saying this and the way that leads to the Everlasting Life is actually wide enough to be found by a majority in the world.

Or...

 

[Curtis]

I have no doubt that, in these days, billions around the world have real faith in Jesus Christ as their Saviour. So, I wonder why Jesus said very clearly:
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

Since billions were able to find it (as they believe), it seems that these billions also see Jesus somehow exaggerating in saying this and the way that leads to the Everlasting Life is actually wide enough to be found by a majority in the world.

Or...

Mat 13:18 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:

Mat 13:19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.

Mat 13:20 But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
Mat 13:21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Mat 13:22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.

Mat 13:23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."

There are four kinds of people who hear the Word. Only the ones who hear the Word and bear fruit are those who are truly saved.

Php 1:11 May you always be filled with the fruit of your salvation—the righteous character produced in your life by Jesus Christ—for this will bring much glory and praise to God. (NLT)

Born again by the incorruptible seed of the Word of God. (1 Peter 1:23)

75% will not make it, while 25% will.

 

[KerimF]

75% will not make it, while 25% will.

You cleverly reduced billions to many millions only, good move.

But, sorry, I couldn't get well from you how these millions were/are able to make it, speaking practically.
Thank you.

 

[lentz]

You cleverly reduced billions to many millions only, good move.

But, sorry, I couldn't get well from you how these millions were/are able to make it, speaking practically.
Thank you.

There seems to always be a remnant. That’s not very many

 

[complete]

I am curious if you have scripture to back this up? Not that we should be dead to sin, ( Rom 6:11-13; ) but that we are dead to simply because of faith and not obedience.

'For in that He died (Christ Jesus), He died unto sin once:
but in that He liveth, He liveth unto God.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin,
but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body,
that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:
but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead,
and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.'
(Rom 6:10-14)

 

[KerimF]

What is sinning?

I understand that I may hurt, in one way or another, a human by mistake or due to my lack of knowledge about his personal nature. And if this happens, I try my best to correct what I did to him and ask for forgiveness. In other words, it is possible for me to sin against a human.

But how could I imagine/believe that I, a powerless tiny creature, have the power and means to also hurt my Father in Heaven or Jesus (that is to sin against my Creator)?
Even in the material world, a little baby cannot hurt his earthly loving father and be punished, no matter what he may do to him. Aren't we babies in God's Realm?

But nothing prevents a human to believe (some men) that he has also the power to change the state of his God remotely, by doing certain acts.

In fact, many people become atheists when they hear clearly that God could be controlled by humans, much like the judgment of an earthly king (who is limited by a certain well-defined rules) is controlled by the sort of actions of his subjects. Obviously, such an image of God is a man-made one. It helps to better control the multitudes (believers) in the name of God's Justice.

Jesus only didn't mention any heavenly rule (or ritual) that humans should obey or observe. His message focuses only on how to love others unconditionally. And, as every wise person knows, the decision of loving and trusting someone is strictly a personal matter, beyond any law/rules.

 

[complete]

What is sinning?

I understand that I may hurt, in one way or another, a human by mistake or due to my lack of knowledge about his personal nature. And if this happens, I try my best to correct what I did to him and ask for forgiveness. In other words, it is possible for me to sin against a human.

But how could I imagine/believe that I, a powerless tiny creature, have the power and means to also hurt my Father in Heaven or Jesus (that is to sin against my Creator)?
Even in the material world, a little baby cannot hurt his earthly loving father and be punished, no matter what he may do to him. Aren't we babies in God's Realm?

But nothing prevents a human to believe (some men) that he has also the power to change the state of his God remotely, by doing certain acts.

In fact, many people become atheists when they hear clearly that God could be controlled by humans, much like the judgment of an earthly king (who is limited by a certain well-defined rules) is controlled by the sort of actions of his subjects. Obviously, such an image of God is a man-made one. It helps to better control the multitudes (believers) in the name of God's Justice.

Jesus only didn't mention any heavenly rule (or ritual) that humans should obey or observe. His message focuses only on how to love others unconditionally. And, as every wise person knows, the decision of loving and trusting someone is strictly a personal matter, beyond any law/rules.

'For all have sinned,
and come short
of the glory of God;'
(Rom 3:23)

'Wherefore,
as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

( For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

.. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,​

.... even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,​

...... who is the figure of Him that was to come.​

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift.​

.. For if through the offence of one many be dead,​

.... much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace,​

...... which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.​

,........ And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift:​

.......... for the judgment was by one to condemnation,​

............ but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.​

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;​

.. much more they which receive abundance of grace​

.... and of the gift of righteousness​

...... shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ ).​

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.'
(Rom 5:12-19)

​

 

[KerimF]

'For all have sinned,
and come short
of the glory of God;'
(Rom 3:23)

'Wherefore,
as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin;
and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

( For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.​

.. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses,​

.... even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,​

...... who is the figure of Him that was to come.​

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift.​

.. For if through the offence of one many be dead,​

.... much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace,​

...... which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.​

,........ And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift:​

.......... for the judgment was by one to condemnation,​

............ but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.​

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;​

.. much more they which receive abundance of grace​

.... and of the gift of righteousness​

...... shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ ).​

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.'
(Rom 5:12-19)

​

I respect all revelations said by men for their believers no matter what they may say (you know... being a student of Jesus, I love/respect even my enemies).

I simply don't hear Jesus in what you kindly presented, or I am missing something?

 

[complete]

I respect all revelations said by men for their believers no matter what they may say (you know... being a student of Jesus, I love/respect even my enemies).

I simply don't hear Jesus in what you kindly presented, or I am missing something?

Hello @KerimF,

I have responded to your question, 'what is sinning?' by quoting two passages of Scripture concerning it.

I am sorry if it has not been helpful.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

 

[Br. Bear]

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:40

 

[Br. Bear]

And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD.

And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
2Samuel 12-13


To the chief Musician,
A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.

Have mercy upon me, O God, according to Thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of Thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

Against Thee, Thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in Thy sight:

that Thou mightest be justified when Thou speakest, and be clear when Thou judgest.
Psalm 51:1-4


 And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.
 But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand; there is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife:

how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
Genesis 39:7-9

 

[KerimF]

Hello @KerimF,

I have responded to your question, 'what is sinning?' by quoting two passages of Scripture concerning it.

I am sorry if it has not been helpful.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

Yes, and you did well.

But personally, I have discovered with time in Jesus' sayings (not of any other man) the perfection of knowledge I was looking for. This is how I became sure that Jesus is indeed of the Will/Power that created me (besides creating the entire universe).

But I also understand that a formal Christian is supposed not to see Jesus' perfection in His teachings, as I do, and he has, therefore, to seek the truths that Jesus missed to reveal (while He was teaching) from some humans like Saint Paul and many others.

So, I am sorry too since it is out of question for me to join anyone in his belief that Jesus is imperfect in His teachings as every human is.