Can you be both Liberal and Christian?

[Reba1]

If her health/life is on the line, I believe she should have the choice to decide. But any reason aside from life or death, I don’t think it should be allowed. And even then, I don’t think it’s okay to abort regardless of the circumstances.
But I won’t judge either way.

would you be willing to judge a person killing another person if the ages were, say 25 years old?

 

[Hekuran]

Two 15 year-old girls fall pregnant. Both have been attending church for the past three years, and neither has told their parents that they've taken a pregnancy test and it's come out positive. The boyfriends of both girls are horrified, and are putting on discrete pressure for an abortion.

It's early days, and there's an option to go to a clinic without even parents knowing.

There's a major difference in the way that their girls have seen their respective churches deal with others in situations like theirs.

The first has seen her church take a strong line on abortion and on sex outside marriage. Girls in particular have been singled out for their conspicous sin, and been subtly shamed in public and in private.

The second knows that in the past her church has rallied around young single mothers, and offered practical support such as childcare while finishing studies, guidance in parenthood, a public welcome for the new baby and a spiritual family for the child to grow up in.

Only one of the girls opted for an abortion. Which?

 

[Reba1]

the one who chooses to not be accountable for her sin.

 

[NYQueens977]

Two 15 year-old girls fall pregnant. Both have been attending church for the past three years, and neither has told their parents that they've taken a pregnancy test and it's come out positive. The boyfriends of both girls are horrified, and are putting on discrete pressure for an abortion.

It's early days, and there's an option to go to a clinic without even parents knowing.

There's a major difference in the way that their girls have seen their respective churches deal with others in situations like theirs.

The first has seen her church take a strong line on abortion and on sex outside marriage. Girls in particular have been singled out for their conspicous sin, and been subtly shamed in public and in private.

The second knows that in the past her church has rallied around young single mothers, and offered practical support such as childcare while finishing studies, guidance in parenthood, a public welcome for the new baby and a spiritual family for the child to grow up in.

Only one of the girls opted for an abortion. Which?

The first church is a fine example of the glaring issue of purity culture, shaming young women in particular into being pure vessels and whatnot and shaming girls who deviate from this standard. I don't see what you're really arguing here. I have a feeling that you're arguing pro-choice, but this post is coming off strongly as a critique on purity culture.
Neither girl should have to even consider abortion, even if their hypothetical boyfriends are pressuring them into it, because, in theory, both girls should be receiving the love and support of their friends, their family, and, above all, the church. If the first girl does go through with the abortion in this situation, then it's the churches fault for not supporting her properly, like praying for her, buying diapers or putting together a wish list, and preparing to welcome a new life into the world.

 

[ForeverinHim]

would you be willing to judge a person killing another person if the ages were, say 25 years old?

If that 25 year old is threatening my life, then the law says I have every right to defend myself, even at the cost of their own life.

 

[Reba1]

If that 25 year old is threatening my life, then the law says I have every right to defend myself, even at the cost of their own life.

agreed would you judge a 30 year old man killing a 2 year old child?

 

[NYQueens977]

agreed would you judge a 30 year old man killing a 2 year old child?

That's murder

 

[ForeverinHim]

agreed would you judge a 30 year old man killing a 2 year old child?

I feel like you're straying away from my initial point. My point was that I wouldn't judge if the situation is life and death. If a woman's pregnancy can kill her, and there are pregnancies that have killed the mother, then I think she should have a right to say "I don't want to die," and abort. The same logic can be applied to self defense in your first question. If a 25 year old is threatening my life, I have every right to do everything in my power to protect my life, even if the other person has to die. It's called survival, and I won't judge anyone who tries to save their life, no matter the situation. But I will never think that killing a fetus in abortion is okay. I think it's incredibly sad, and something that shouldn't be celebrated as empowering, but grieved as a loss of, life (or if you don't believe it's a life yet, then a loss of a life that would've been).
If that 2 year old was somehow threatening that 30 year old man's life and he had no choice but to retaliate in an extreme matter and can be proven in court to be the case, then, as unlikely as that situation may be, my position still stands.
But if a woman decides to abort her baby out of convenience, then that's foeticide, and it's not right.
If someone were to kill a 25 year old because they wanted them dead, then that's murder.
If a 30 year old were to kill a 2 year old just because they wanted them dead, that's murder.

I feel like I should also touch upon the topic of rape, which I don't see as a reason to have an abortion as many women who have been raped go through with the pregnancy, which could account as to why there aren't many reported cases of rape/incest as being a reason behind the abortion according to various studies. But even in this case, I wouldn't meet the person with judgement if they decide to go through with it, because I may never know what goes on in their minds. I would instead meet their trauma with love, understanding, and unconditional support, as a Christian should. Maybe I'll try to change their mind if I could, I would even offer to take their child if they don't want it. But sometimes you can't change people's minds, and it's in those cases that you should meet people with love, not judgement. But this is, again, rare, and something I don't feel a need to argue to heavily.

I hope this clears up some points about my views on abortion, as it seems you were trying to push me into saying that "if I would judge a 30 year old man for killing a 2 year old, why can't I judge a grown woman for killing a fetus" or something like that. I wouldn't judge anyone, not even for murder. That's the laws job, after all, not mine.

 

[Reba1]

ForeverinHim Understood now thanks ...

 

[ForeverinHim]

ForeverinHim Understood now thanks ...

Glad I could clear things up

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

If that 25 year old is threatening my life, then the law says I have every right to defend myself, even at the cost of their own life.

whose law?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Sue D.]

There are women who will do anything necessary to deliver that baby. So the concept of abortion being justified to save the mother's life doesn't hold up.

 

[ForeverinHim]

There are women who will do anything necessary to deliver that baby. So the concept of abortion being justified to save the mother's life doesn't hold up.

I knew a woman who had died in childbirth, and her child was a still-borne.
I knew another woman who was told the same thing, that her pregnancy came with complications, and that if she went through with it, she’ll die. She already had two other children, and she decided that she couldn’t let her children grow up without a mother, so she aborted, and her life was spared.
So yeah, there are some women who would do anything to deliver the baby, but there are others who would do anything to stay alive and be with the people they care about, and I can’t, with a clear conscience, judge nor blame a woman for wanting to do that.

 

[ForeverinHim]

Greetings,



whose law?


Bless you ....><>

Hi Br. Bear
I’m talking about self defense that is practiced in the US, which is:

“...the degree of force must match the level of the perceived threat. Only the amount of force necessary to remove the threat is justified. If the threat involves deadly force, such as the aggressor using a weapon against the victim, deadly force may be able to be applied in response.”

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/self-defense-laws-40093

If you’re insinuating that the Bible is somehow against deadly force as self defense, then here’s this article that discusses that topic here:

What does the Bible say about self-defense? | GotQuestions.org

What does the Bible say about self-defense? When is it right for a Christian to defend himself?

www.gotquestions.org

To quote the bottom line, “The Bible never forbids self-defense, and believers are allowed to defend themselves and their families.”

so to answer your question, I guess I would say both the laws of heaven and the laws the US legal system.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Hi Br. Bear
I’m talking about self defense that is practiced in the US, which is:

“...the degree of force must match the level of the perceived threat. Only the amount of force necessary to remove the threat is justified. If the threat involves deadly force, such as the aggressor using a weapon against the victim, deadly force may be able to be applied in response.”

https://www.hg.org/legal-articles/self-defense-laws-40093

If you’re insinuating that the Bible is somehow against deadly force as self defense, then here’s this article that discusses that topic here:

What does the Bible say about self-defense? | GotQuestions.org

What does the Bible say about self-defense? When is it right for a Christian to defend himself?

www.gotquestions.org

To quote the bottom line, “The Bible never forbids self-defense, and believers are allowed to defend themselves and their families.”

so to answer your question, I guess I would say both the laws of heaven and the laws the US legal system.

thank you for your reply


Bless you ....><>

 

[ForeverinHim]

I knew a woman who had died in childbirth, and her child was a still-borne.
I knew another woman who was told the same thing, that her pregnancy came with complications, and that if she went through with it, she’ll die. She already had two other children, and she decided that she couldn’t let her children grow up without a mother, so she aborted, and her life was spared.
So yeah, there are some women who would do anything to deliver the baby, but there are others who would do anything to stay alive and be with the people they care about, and I can’t, with a clear conscience, judge nor blame a woman for wanting to do that.

Also, I’m not trying to justify abortion. If you read my reply, you would see that I don’t believe that abortion is okay under any circumstances, but I could understand if a woman were to choose to abort if the situation was life or death or a case of rape/incest, and will therefore treat them with support, love, and understanding. The action wasn’t okay, but they are human beings left with a difficult situation that I may never understand, and it is imperative, and my duty as a Christian to treat them with love and respect.
Just because some mothers would go through with the pregnancy, some even at the cost of their own lives, doesn’t mean that every single other woman in that situation can live up to that standard.

 

[Sue D.]

I knew a woman who had died in childbirth, and her child was a still-borne.
I knew another woman who was told the same thing, that her pregnancy came with complications, and that if she went through with it, she’ll die. She already had two other children, and she decided that she couldn’t let her children grow up without a mother, so she aborted, and her life was spared.
So yeah, there are some women who would do anything to deliver the baby, but there are others who would do anything to stay alive and be with the people they care about, and I can’t, with a clear conscience, judge nor blame a woman for wanting to do that.

Yes -- those things Do happen.

As well as the couple who was told the same thing -- they prayed about it and decided to go ahead with the pregnancy -- it turned out that the baby was born perfectly healthy.

And the woman who had was diagnosed with cancer -- the chemo was stopped at her request to allow for the normal development of her baby. She was monitored Extremely closely. The baby was delivered as soon as it was big enough to survive -- she was put back on chemo and did survive.

So -- it comes down to the individual decision of the mother and / or parents of the baby. And no one talks about the after affects that women experience as the result Of deciding to abort that baby. Because the baby Still has to be delivered. Dead or alive -- and the mother is still aware of that baby's existence.

 

[Sue D.]

Also, I’m not trying to justify abortion. If you read my reply, you would see that I don’t believe that abortion is okay under any circumstances, but I could understand if a woman were to choose to abort if the situation was life or death or a case of rape/incest, and will therefore treat them with support, love, and understanding. The action wasn’t okay, but they are human beings left with a difficult situation that I may never understand, and it is imperative, and my duty as a Christian to treat them with love and respect.
Just because some mothers would go through with the pregnancy, some even at the cost of their own lives, doesn’t mean that every single other woman in that situation can live up to that standard.

In the case of a rape and a resulting pregnancy -- it would depend on the emotional / psychological condition of the woman who endured that rape. Biblical counseling would be important / necessary no matter What decision was made. And there have been women who - once they realize that they Are pregnant -- have realized that That baby is innocent. And they go ahead with the pregnancy Anyway.

It should not be considered to be a 'standard' to live up to.

that which sickens me is a decision that was made by some official -- because of the virus - hospitals are being requested to put off all unnecessary surgery until after all this is over -- except it was considered okay to go ahead with abortions.
People make decisions as to whether or not to have sex or not. It's crazy that men will go ahead and rape and commit incest Anyway and abortion is being allowed to take place to accommodate them. Because that's exactly what it means.

 

[ForeverinHim]

In the case of a rape and a resulting pregnancy -- it would depend on the emotional / psychological condition of the woman who endured that rape. Biblical counseling would be important / necessary no matter What decision was made. And there have been women who - once they realize that they Are pregnant -- have realized that That baby is innocent. And they go ahead with the pregnancy Anyway.

It should not be considered to be a 'standard' to live up to.

that which sickens me is a decision that was made by some official -- because of the virus - hospitals are being requested to put off all unnecessary surgery until after all this is over -- except it was considered okay to go ahead with abortions.
People make decisions as to whether or not to have sex or not. It's crazy that men will go ahead and rape and commit incest Anyway and abortion is being allowed to take place to accommodate them. Because that's exactly what it means.

There is a standard of motherhood, and to say that there isn't is actually... quite strange. Mothers who don't meet this standard, either by their actions or by their appearances, are usually scrutinized by their communities. Or are you telling me that you wouldn't at least raise an eyebrow at woman who brings a boyfriend to their house and do unspeakable acts with their children in the other room? Mothers are held to be the epitome of compassion, selflessness, and love, and when they act or appear to act in a way that is contrary to this, people tend to raise an eyebrow and ask "what kind of mother would...?" Now I'm not saying this is a good thing. Mothers are human too, and people need to realize that sometimes they are forced to make extremely difficult decisions, and sometimes they make decisions that you or I or anyone wouldn't agree with. But that doesn't make them any less deserving of our love and understanding.

You're right, it shouldn't be a standard, as mothers are human and capable of making mistakes. But there is, and they're usually judged the hardest by their community for not meeting this standard.

And I agree that women who go through trauma need counseling, biblical if they prefer. And I've already stated that there are countless women who choose to have their babies despite their traumatic circumstances. But I'm not talking about those women. I'm talking about the women who feel as if they're at a point where abortion is their only alternative and refuse to change their minds. As small in numbers they are, they still exist, and I don't think they should be overlooked and dismissed. I think they need to be treated with love and, forgive me for beginning to sound like a broken record, understanding, and support so that they may move forward with their lives and grow from their experience, as sad as that experience may be.

 

[Hekuran]

The first church is a fine example of the glaring issue of purity culture, shaming young women in particular into being pure vessels and whatnot and shaming girls who deviate from this standard. I don't see what you're really arguing here. I have a feeling that you're arguing pro-choice, but this post is coming off strongly as a critique on purity culture.
Neither girl should have to even consider abortion, even if their hypothetical boyfriends are pressuring them into it, because, in theory, both girls should be receiving the love and support of their friends, their family, and, above all, the church. If the first girl does go through with the abortion in this situation, then it's the churches fault for not supporting her properly, like praying for her, buying diapers or putting together a wish list, and preparing to welcome a new life into the world.

The law is not the only way to prevent abortion, and I'd suggest it's clumsy and ungraceful.

It's well-known that in the US abortion rates have fallen more under pro-choice democrat presidents than under pro-life Republicans. Why?

Raising a child is the task of a community, not just parents. If more women were assured of the practical, moral and spiritual support of a church family, fewer would opt for abortion.

There's a responsibility on us in the church to give support to parents, regardless of their circumstances.