Case #1 For Tongue Speakers

[Enow]

:groupwave:Let's see what the Bible has to say about this subject. John 7:37-39, 37. In the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto Me, and drink.

38. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow riivers of living water.

The water referred tto in both passages is a type of the Holy Spirit. Notice that two different experiences are spoken of.

39(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

First, to the woman at the well of Samaria Jesus said, but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. Here Jesus was referring to the Holy spirit in the act of regeneration or salvation.

The one important promise I got from that reference was this.

John 4: 10Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 11The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water? 12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle? 13Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

It ties in with this verse about salvation:


John 6:35And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

The other referrence is to rivers of living water, and speaks of the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus beckons us to come and drink and get full? Someone may ask. For the answer, let us look at Acts 2:4: and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. This is the initial sign or evidence that you are filled. :wink:

This is where I have a problem. Jesus promised no more thirsting so there can be no more filling. It is the faith for coming to Jesus that we are filled and sealed, and thus saved. We are not leaky vessels.

John 7:39 was referring to the coming event of Acts 2:4. Once you have the Holy Spirit now.... after Jesus has been glorified... He stays in you and abides in you forever as promised so that there is no more thirsting after more of the Holy Spirit as if you are a leaky vessel. You have received Him and thus the testimony regarding the promise from Jesus is that you are filled.

So what is happening today?

Believers are having supernatural encounters long after believing in Jesus and so they try to define the experience as being of God by any way possible, ignoring what the scriptures warned believers about in not believing every spirit but to test them by the scriptures. When people start changing their testimonies about the Gospel and His promises as if they did not come in full when they came to Jesus, they start preaching another baptism to receive, but scriptures says there is only one baptism.. one hope of our calling... one Spirit, one Lord, one faith.

But yet today, as believers are just going with the flow and ignoring scriptures, they are unwittingly stating another baptism is to be had or that they call it an anointing as if that is seperate from the baptism of the Spirit or they call it sanctification of the Spirit as if that is seperate at salvation or they call it receiving power, fire, joy, or whatever... or the actual baptism of the Holy Spirit as if that was when they were really saved.... thus taking a step back, for such a "move of the Spirit" how can the Holy Spirit be leading all those people to say what it is they are experiencing as something else? Should not the self same spirit all be leading them to testify of the same thing as to what was happening? The scriptures says the real Holy Spirit in us would so...

Something is not right here and I believe it is the concept of there being another spirit to receive, even if it is just a continual filling of the Spirit, it is to suggest that we are not a new creation in Christ Jesus as being new bottles to be able to hold the new wine (the Holy Spirit). The sealing of this bottle... our seal of adoption.. means we are preserved and thus saved.

There is no other Gospel after Jesus Christ. Either we hold to the faith or we allow ourselves to be led away from our first love and serve something else in His name which is not after Christ, but after what is claimed to be of the "Spirit"... and the real indwelling Holy Spirit is continually pointing us towards our first love, the Bridegroom, the Saviour.. Our Friend Who died for us to save us. Need there be a need for another invitation or another door to the Spirit as if the door to Jesus is not enough for us to rest in Him and all His promises to us?

I say faith in Jesus Christ is enough for He is the Gospel. Jesus is the Good News in full.

 

[Enow]

The irrational fear of the gifts of God will not change the Word of God nor limit the gifts in those who have the faith to walk in them.

When the "gifts of God" starts taking away the effect of the Gospel by changing the testimonies of the believer, then I would rather be seen defending my faith in Jesus Christ rather than be seen defending the gifts.

 

[jiggyfly]

Enow, what is the point you are trying to make here? Are you pointing out that some of the charasmatics are not receiving/ using the genuine gift of speaking in tongues or that the the genuine gift of speaking in tongues is not operating today?

 

[Enow]

Enow, what is the point you are trying to make here? Are you pointing out that some of the charasmatics are not receiving/ using the genuine gift of speaking in tongues or that the the genuine gift of speaking in tongues is not operating today?

If there is anyone operating the gift of tongues today, I do not see it.

Ask Jesus as to why I do not see it and doubts why those that do...

Also, I have seen the abuse of the gift of prophesy as well. One believer in another forum treats the Holy Spirit like the spirit guide of new age channelers. His words in his quoted prophesy goes like this,"I am the Messiah. I am the Messiah. Have I not spoken? Is this not true?" after giving a message.

He is a main campaigner for seeking another baptism of the Holy Spirit with evidence of tongues and he flips flops over his references to Acts by his stated belief.. from one.. he claims you do not get the Holy Spirit right away when you believe and then the other which opposes himself, he declares that there is a baptism of the Holy Spirit at salvation, but there is another one that comes with evidence of tongues.

With all the abuse out there and the pointing to this similar format to get what? The gift of healing? The gift of knowledge? No. The gift of tongues. Everyone tries to explain it in so many different ways but tongues is the result of all this defense for going after the Spirit as if there is a different type of baptism or another "Spirit" to receive as in more of Him. It is not consistent with the faith in Jesus Christ.

I have read that some have walked away from Jesus, feeling rejected because of not getting anything at all and some of them go into the occult.

I have read how the churches are being alarmed now that new age is coming into the churches. How long were they there before they had found out?

I have read that those that believed they had the Biblical gift of tongues with interpretation invited linguists to record and translate only to find that the tongues were gibberish which comes with no interpretation at all. Who were the interpretators? Were they winging it like some do in faking tongues?

Then there are counterfeit tongues. They are just as real in the supernatural sense as the Biblical tongues but they come with no interpretation at all.

Don't get me wrong. I believe in the gift of tongues that comes with interpretation, but what I am seeing today and how believers are testifying as in result of tongues is not consistent with the faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore by His grace, I oppose any tongue that is not according to scriptures because they were given for the furtherance of the Gospel, not to be glorified towards the Spirit as He be the means to seek after to get those tongues.

In Acts, those that believed and spoke in tongues, were they expecting to speak in tongies? In Acts 10, by the very words that Peter spoke, he did not mention tongues at all, but this sign followed them that believe.

Tongues were not a sign for those that believe, but yet believers are seeking the sign of this other baptism of the Holy Spirit by those tongues. How can this be? And yet, just because it is happening, doesn't mean we ignore scriptures warning about not believing every spirit, and just go with the flow without testing them by the scriptures and I can see those tongues are not the Biblical tongues and the way they got it was not after Christ Jesus, but after seeking another spirit to receive. It is written that signs and wonders will be great enough to, if possible, fool the very elect. That means 1 Timothy 4:1-2 pertains to believers falling away from the faith and giving heed to seducing spirits.

I can only hope that those God calls will take time out and go over their walk with the Lord with His help and see where their testimonies have changed regarding the Gospel of Jesus Christ because of those supernatural expereinces with tongues for seeking another spirit to receive. Granted, not all got tongues by seeking another spirit, but they were warned not to believe every spirit too as they changed their testimony from the Gospel of Jesus Christ to preaching another spirit to receive all because another spirit came unto them when they got tongues. They failed to see how the encounter chnaged their faith.

Again, ask Jesus if you still do not understand where I am coming from. He can help you to understand my points of contention in defending the faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Boanerges]

When the "gifts of God" starts taking away the effect of the Gospel by changing the testimonies of the believer, then I would rather be seen defending my faith in Jesus Christ rather than be seen defending the gifts.

The is the exact opposite of the truth in this case as the gift of tongues is a sign to the unbeliever.That is what the bible says anyhow my friend.

1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

 

[Giggles4God]

I am a speaking in tongues Follower of Jesus!

I wanted to ask: Do you, Enow, speak in tongues?

 

[missi]

Witches and Prayer intercessors have the same gifts and the same skills.
It just so happened that they are controlled by different spirits.

Now, if your friend did that, it's pretty obvious that that wasn't the Holy Spirit.

She was apparently depressed as she had not gotten the gift of utterance [which is, by the way, uttered by the Spirit, and not by the person]. The devil must have seen this as a beautiful weakness -- a way for him to get in -- as she did not have enough faith in the Lord.

Now, seeing that witches have a way into the supernatural world, which the devil might have brought upon her, she accepted the offer and went to the seyance.

Now she had lack of faith (1), and consulting a medium (2).

What a joy for the devil then!

Seeing these two passageways, the devil makes haste and sends a spirit of his own, one that appears to give utterance.

Now, my friend, there are believers who are blessed with the gift of the Spirit that is the interpretation of tongues (1 Cor 12:8-10). I suggest you bring her to one of them and have them interpret her 'utterance from the 'Holy Spirit''.

If that cannot be done, you must just take into consideration the fact that Satan IS THE FATHER OF LIES. He can make anything fake and offer it to people, people, in all their foolishness, accept and, sometimes, even reject the real thing.

Witchcraft, necromancy, sorcery, and such are an abomination to the Lord. Proverbs 3:5 says that we should trust in the Lord and lean not on our own understanding. Now if we insist that the 'utterance from the Holy Spirit' that your friend has is indeed from the Holy Spirit, then we are only leaning on our own understanding as it seems for us logical that that was the Spirit of the Almighty God.

I have also another point to make at the lady's perspective that 'she asked for the Holy Spirit so it could not be a counterfeit'....

If she had asked for a dead person to come and talk to her, could it not be a counterfeit?

The Bible clearly states that there is an enormous gap between hell, heaven, and the earth that no soul can pass through. Therefore, that 'dead person' must be an unclean spirit, as is the 'Holy Spirit' that she has asked for from the medium. If she cannot see that, she definitely needs prayer and deliverance.

May God bless you.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Don't get me wrong. I believe in the gift of tongues that comes with interpretation, but what I am seeing today and how believers are testifying as in result of tongues is not consistent with the faith in Jesus Christ. Therefore by His grace, I oppose any tongue that is not according to scriptures because they were given for the furtherance of the Gospel, not to be glorified towards the Spirit as He be the means to seek after to get those tongues.

Enow, could you please edit this post and correct the grammar problems therein. I strongly suggest that you spend more time proofreading your posts before you click submit. That would make your posts easier to read and understand and perhaps eliminate some confusion as to what you are saying.

Spirit Led Ed

 

[Gracealone]

What are your thoughts on this verse?

1Corinthians 12:27-31

Now you are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
And God hath set some in the church,first apostles, secondarily prophets,thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversity of tongues.

Are all apostles? are all workers of miracles?.
Have all gifts of healing?do we all speak with tongues?
do all interpret?

The answer to these questions is understood to be no......

But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet show I unto you a more excellent way......
Chapter 13: goes on to say the more excellent way is Love. :friends:

PS: I understand what Enow is saying, and agree with him for the most part.
God is the same, yesterday ,today, and forever, but the Bible also says that tongues will cease.
Doesn't say when, but if Gods word says they will cease they must have been meant for a particular
time, for a particular reason.
I too have witnessed false tongues, which isnt surprising as Satan decided long ago to join the church and destroy it from the inside out, just like what is happening to our nation.
I was married to a man who spoke in tongues, is dead now, but proved himself to be a false prophet
by giving a prophecy that didnt come true.
Satan uses spiritual things to draw veneration to himself, and in the near future, I believe, many will be deceived by him with many signs and wonders.
I also believe the gift of tongues to be genuine if given by the Holy Spirit.
We also had a man come to our church,years ago, and was going to give classes on how to speak in tongues......Not so!
It either comes from God, apart from any struggle on our part, or it isnt God.

 

[paganmystic]

wow, this just keeps going. lol

First a medium works the occult, there is no heavenly works performed by any worker of the occult, that is a period. Gracealone, Trishann and Coconut awesome. I did notice 2 areas vacant though. In 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 does deal specifically with Spiritual Gifts and it is as diverse as there are people and 1 Corinthians 14:1-25 on confusion caused by yes, tongues.

Christianity and having the Spirit is about you and your commitment to Jesus and accepting the Spirit. If your heart is washed clean by the blood of Christ and filled with the Spirit your life is very different, your mood, the way you think is different. Tongues does not a Christian make, it is but one of many many gifts. The charismatic non-denominational movement, which includes the evangelicals has made tongues the focus and verifiable proof of the Spirit which scare anyone.

Sorry if this is unduly harsh.

 

[Gracealone]

wow, this just keeps going. lol

First a medium works the occult, there is no heavenly works performed by any worker of the occult, that is a period. Gracealone, Trishann and Coconut awesome. I did notice 2 areas vacant though. In 1 Corinthians 12:1-11 does deal specifically with Spiritual Gifts and it is as diverse as there are people and 1 Corinthians 14:1-25 on confusion caused by yes, tongues.

Christianity and having the Spirit is about you and your commitment to Jesus and accepting the Spirit. If your heart is washed clean by the blood of Christ and filled with the Spirit your life is very different, your mood, the way you think is different. Tongues does not a Christian make, it is but one of many many gifts. The charismatic non-denominational movement, which includes the evangelicals has made tongues the focus and verifiable proof of the Spirit which scare anyone.

Sorry if this is unduly harsh.

Agree paganmystic, gifts are as diverse as there are people, and I would add, they are given according to the will of God, the Spirit. He descides.

I often wonder why Christian's never ask for the gift of "Helps", I might think because it isn't showy enough, but helps is just as important to the body as any gift.
Guess that is why the Holy Spirit gives as He wills, and not as we would do. The body might end up looking like one big eye (I)

 

[Boanerges]

They may not pray for it but I see it demonstrated often.

 

[Gracealone]

Yes Sir, I believe so too.

The Holy Spirit goes about doing His work quietly, constantly, and never draws attention to himself, but always to the glory of our Lord.

 

[benfaust]

Response

First of all, the answer is no, I have never heard of anything like this happening, and would be incredibly shocked if it ever did. And the "tongues" in this case, if gotten through a medium, would be counterfeit. Mediums, psychics, etc., are very uncomfortable in the presence of the moving of the Holy Spirit, and someone wouldn't receive the Holy Spirit by going to them. I grew up in Spirit-filled churches and have seen many things, and the story you told is not only inconsistent with reality, but is contrary to it.

I wouldn't just tell the lady "something." Instead, she would need counseling and most likely some sort of deliverance. Any spirit received from an occultist is not a spirit from God.

Answering this "what if" is like answering the question, "What would you say to someone who was born with 10 heads?" It just doesn't happen. I guess I would say "hello" ten times.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

The charismatic non-denominational movement, which includes the evangelicals has made tongues the focus and verifiable proof of the Spirit which scare anyone.

When did all evangelicals become non-denominational? My definition of evangelical means actively involved in evangelism. When did that become the work of non-denominatioinal churches alone?

SLE

 

[paganmystic]

Yes Gracealone and thank you. Unfortunately many wannabe Christians have a me me me attitude. Sad but true. The helps gift has to be, no sorry, is included with the receiving of the Spirit, it is part of how we are changed, physically, intellectually and emotionally.

 

[nEw.CrEaTiOn]

I agree with speaking in tongues, some are given that gift and it is awesome. However, you cannot use evil spirits to summon the spirit of the living God. Anyone that thinks you can needs to re-evaluate the God you serve, because I KNOW my God doesn't come to people when called by a medium. The medium has NO power over Yahweh. What scripture? There are tons of scriptures.... one is: "Do not turn to mediums or spirits; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the Lord our God." Lev. 19:31 AND "There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through the fire, ones who use divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spirtitist, or one who calls upon the dead for whoever does these things is detestable to the Lord; and because of these detestable things the Lord your God will drive them out before you." Deut. 18:10-12...... as for being filled with the spirit....amen. except in this case. That is surely not the Holy Spirit dwelling in this woman. And another thing you should know....you et the Holy Spirit when you become saved, some are given the gift of tongues not all. (1 Cor. 12:7-11) God Bless

 

[Chad]

New.Creation, you literally said what I wanted to share. Great post.

I'm saved since 2002. I do not have the gift of tongues neither do I doubt my salvation because of it. No where in Scripture does it say that the tongues is proof of salvation. It might be proof of the Holy Spirit, but not having that specific gift does not disprove a man's salvation. Anyone who tries to preach that to me will be laughed out because I know my GOD is not going to stop loving me and save me just because I do not speak in tongues. I speak English otherwise

I'm going to share portions of select articles taken from gotquestions.org

Sorcery

The Book of Exodus speaks of magicians practicing what is called "secret arts" (Exodus 8:7), as they brought up frogs and thereby replicating God's plague on the land of Egypt. Magic in this case was used in an attempt to mock God by mimicking the miracles God performed through Moses. Magic and sorcery played a major role in the pantheistic religion of Egypt. Its ancient documents record the activities of the magicians, one of the most prominent being the charming of serpents. These men were also self-styled “wise men” and “sorcerers,”— the learned men of the day and the religious as well. Two of these men, named Jannes and Jambres are mentioned in 2 Timothy 3:8. Any supernatural power they may have had came from Satan (2 Corinthians 11:13-15). If not supernaturally inspired, they simply practiced their trade by optical illusion, sleight of hand, or the learned physical manipulation of things such as snakes. In either case, deceit was their aim, and they were sufficiently skillful to completely fool Pharaoh and his servants.

Channeling

The Bible is explicitly clear in its handling of channeling and contacting the dead. Scripture has a well-documented view of the practice of mediums, channeling, and fortune-telling. Leviticus 19:31 states: “Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them…”. Leviticus 20:6 says: “I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.” Deuteronomy 18:12 says that consulting mediums or channeling the dead is “detestable.” Clearly, God sees these practices as sinful and completely without benefit.

Mediums / Familiar Spirits

Leviticus 19:31; 20:6, 27; and Deuteronomy 18:9-14 refer to “mediums and familiar spirits” and forbids being involved with them, as they are an abomination to the Lord. The medium was one who acted as a “go-between” to supposedly contact or communicate with the dead, but in reality they were contacting demons who convinced the mediums that they were “familiar” and could be trusted and believed. The practices associated with mediums and familiar spirits were banned in Israel, and the punishment for practicing such things was death.

Praying to the Dead

Praying to the dead is strictly forbidden in the Bible. Deuteronomy 18:11 tells us that anyone who “consults with the dead” is “detestable to the Lord.” The story of Saul consulting a medium to bring up the spirit of the dead Samuel resulted in his death “because he was unfaithful to the LORD; he did not keep the word of the LORD and even consulted a medium for guidance” (1 Samuel 28:1-25; 1 Chronicles 10:13-14). Clearly God has declared that such things are not to be done.

Note: move your mouse cursor over the Scripture verses for a pop-up full verse display.

 

[Gracealone]

Chad, That is the best, how can anyone get around the truth of Gods word.
It is the last and final authority. Amen!

 

[paganmystic]

Thanks Chad... awesome as usual. I wish I read well enough to simply find exactly what I want to say. There as always been truth listed and defended, in the scriptures as per Chad's and nEw.CrEaTiOn's replies going back as far as the beginnings of God's people.

As both said my God would not leave us standing alone surround by evil things.