Christians and the Tribulation

[Charlie24]

I think your cumulative reading approach is at the heart of the problem here. To read any Bible text well, we need to be sensitive to who the text was written to, the situation they were in, and at what stage in the unfolding story of the Bible.

Daniel lived in Babylon in exile from Jerusalem. He was in the first generation to experience the devastation of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple. He was aware of Isaiah's and Jeremiah's prophecies of return and restoration. He lived in hope of return from exile.

Jesus, immediately before his death stood in the shadow of the second temple and taught his disciples that judgement would again fall on Jerusalem, and again the temple would be destroyed.

In the first pages of Acts we read of tongues of fire descending on the disciples, just as holy fire had once descended on the temple, indicating that now God's presence in the world is no longer through a holy building, but through the lives of every believer.

Twenty years later Paul assures the church in Thessalonica that Jesus will return in glory and the dead will rise from the grave to be with him. But he warns that it will not happen until a man of lawlessness comes, taking his place in the temple and claiming to be God.

These prophecies had a purpose: they would have meant that when terrible things happened the first generation of Christians would not have had reason to doubt God was working out his plan. They knew what to do, how to pray, what to put their trust in.



If you mash all this together without respect for the different times and circumstances of these prophecies, you end up with a Frankenstein's monster theology, stitched together from scraps of scripture.

It's the same as learning about Christ from 4 different writers of 4 different Gospels.

We totally disagree and that's fine. I'm moving on now, thanks.

 

[B-A-C]

Matthew 24:15
(AMPC) So when you see the appalling sacrilege [the abomination that astonishes and makes desolate], spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place--let the reader take notice and ponder and consider and heed [this]--[Dan_9:27; Dan_11:31; Dan_12:11]
(ASV) When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
(BSB) So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),
(CSB) “So when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place” (let the reader understand),
(ESV) “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
(Greek NT BYZ+) οτανG3752 CONJ ουνG3767 CONJ ιδητεG3708 V-2AAS-2P τοG3588 T-ASN βδελυγμαG946 N-ASN τηςG3588 T-GSF ερημωσεωςG2050 N-GSF τοG3588 T-ASN ρηθενG2046 V-APP-ASN διαG1223 PREP δανιηλG1158 N-PRI τουG3588 T-GSM προφητουG4396 N-GSM εστωςG2476 V-RAP-NSM ενG1722 PREP τοπωG5117 N-DSM αγιωG40 A-DSM οG3588 T-NSM αναγινωσκωνG314 V-PAP-NSM νοειτωG3539 V-PAM-3S
(HCSB) "So when you see the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place" (let the reader understand),
(ISV) "So when you see the destructive desecration, mentioned by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place (let the reader take note),
(KJV) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
(MKJV) Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand).
(NAS77) "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
(NAS95) "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
(NIrV) "The prophet Daniel spoke about 'the hated thing that destroys.' (Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11) Someday you will see it standing in the holy place. The reader should understand this.
(NIV) "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
(NKJV) "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
(NLT) “The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing in the Holy Place.” (Reader, pay attention!)
(RV) When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),

None of my Bibles say "like" the one spoken of by Daniel. They all say the abomination... spoken of by Daniel.
It would seem all of the events spoken of in Daniel 11 and 12 have to happen in order for it to qualify as the event Jesus was describing.

 

[Eddie Deepfield]

I'm pretty shocked at how shallow your reading of these texts is. Jeremiah and Daniel were prophesying immediately before and during the exile to Babylon, and therefore looking forward to the construction second temple and the description in the maccabean period.

Not my reading only - but mostly what i have been taught at Bible Study in the Coastal Assemblies of God in South Africa since my teens.

But you have a point.

It is referring to the second temple but if you also notice - Daniel tells us about the seventy weeks.

 

[Hekuran]

Matthew 24:15
(AMPC) So when you see the appalling sacrilege [the abomination that astonishes and makes desolate], spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place--let the reader take notice and ponder and consider and heed [this]--[Dan_9:27; Dan_11:31; Dan_12:11]
(ASV) When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
(BSB) So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’ described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand),
(CSB) “So when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place” (let the reader understand),
(ESV) “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
(Greek NT BYZ+) οτανG3752 CONJ ουνG3767 CONJ ιδητεG3708 V-2AAS-2P τοG3588 T-ASN βδελυγμαG946 N-ASN τηςG3588 T-GSF ερημωσεωςG2050 N-GSF τοG3588 T-ASN ρηθενG2046 V-APP-ASN διαG1223 PREP δανιηλG1158 N-PRI τουG3588 T-GSM προφητουG4396 N-GSM εστωςG2476 V-RAP-NSM ενG1722 PREP τοπωG5117 N-DSM αγιωG40 A-DSM οG3588 T-NSM αναγινωσκωνG314 V-PAP-NSM νοειτωG3539 V-PAM-3S
(HCSB) "So when you see the abomination that causes desolation, spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place" (let the reader understand),
(ISV) "So when you see the destructive desecration, mentioned by the prophet Daniel, standing in the Holy Place (let the reader take note),
(KJV) When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
(MKJV) Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand).
(NAS77) "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
(NAS95) "Therefore when you see the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand),
(NIrV) "The prophet Daniel spoke about 'the hated thing that destroys.' (Daniel 9:27; 11:31; 12:11) Someday you will see it standing in the holy place. The reader should understand this.
(NIV) "So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
(NKJV) "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
(NLT) “The day is coming when you will see what Daniel the prophet spoke about—the sacrilegious object that causes desecration standing in the Holy Place.” (Reader, pay attention!)
(RV) When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),

None of my Bibles say "like" the one spoken of by Daniel. They all say the abomination... spoken of by Daniel.
It would seem all of the events spoken of in Daniel 11 and 12 have to happen in order for it to qualify as the event Jesus was describing.

The prophecies of Daniel 11 and 12 have been fulfilled. They cover what happend from Daniel's day to around four centuries later.

Alexander the Great, wars between Syria and Egypt and the rise of Greece are all there.

 

[Eddie Deepfield]

You're just making stuff up.

I've been in churches for nearly half a century and have seen a lot of fanciful speculation come and go. Yes all the speculation of the past has turned out to be wrong, butt no matter because the end time pundits just move on to the next theory.

Mind you, they've sold a lot of books, films and conference tickets.

Yep - they have, made lots of money.

And every generation since the early church has thought and expected that they were in the End times. Even the Apostles thought so. Revelation has direct relevance to the real historical first century churches to whom it was addressed, and the text of the book itself points to the imminent fulfillment of most of its prophecies.

Rev1;1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Yep.

 

[Eddie Deepfield]

The prophecies of Daniel 11 and 12 have been fulfilled. They cover what happend from Daniel's day to around four centuries later.

Alexander the Great, wars between Syria and Egypt and the rise of Greece are all there.

Makes sense.

 

[Charlie24]

The prophecies of Daniel 11 and 12 have been fulfilled. They cover what happend from Daniel's day to around four centuries later.

Alexander the Great, wars between Syria and Egypt and the rise of Greece are all there.

You can actually read Daniel 12:1-2 and say it has already been fulfilled?

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Daniel has been leading up to the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation and here he presents it, "the time of trouble such as never was." The Great Tribulation.

This is when "Israel will be saved" as Paul said. Daniel puts it this way "and at that time thy people (Israel) shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

 

[Charlie24]

You can actually read Daniel 12:1-2 and say it has already been fulfilled?

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Daniel has been leading up to the last 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation and here he presents it, "the time of trouble such as never was." The Great Tribulation.

This is when "Israel will be saved" as Paul said. Daniel puts it this way "and at that time thy people (Israel) shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book."

I'm sorry Hekuran, but someone has filled your head with a bunch of nonsense.

 

[Charlie24]

I'm sorry Hekuran, but someone has filled your head with a bunch of nonsense.

Look Hekuran at what I'm showing you. Daniel is speaking of "my people." It's what happens to Israel.

You are correct about Daniel covering the past with Egypt and the nations at war.

Where you go wrong is that in Dan. 11:35, Daniel leaves the past into the future.

Dan. 11:35

"And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed."

This is where Daniel picks up on "yet for a time appointed." The time of Jacobs Trouble.

What follows vs. 35 is the end of the Great Tribulation with Israel saved and the Tribulation saints raised from the dead.

 

[Hekuran]

Look Hekuran at what I'm showing you. Daniel is speaking of "my people." It's what happens to Israel.

You are correct about Daniel covering the past with Egypt and the nations at war.

Where you go wrong is that in Dan. 11:35, Daniel leaves the past into the future.

Dan. 11:35

"And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed."

This is where Daniel picks up on "yet for a time appointed." The time of Jacobs Trouble.

What follows vs. 35 is the end of the Great Tribulation with Israel saved and the Tribulation saints raised from the dead.

From Daniel's perspective, writing while in exile in Babylon, it was all in the future.

Yes, I think v35 looks forward to the final vindication of the wise ones who persevere - at the time of the end, the resurrection. (Daniel 12:2 is the same, and I have to be honest and say that I don't know with any confidence at all what the "at that time" when Michael rises in Daniel 12:1 is. If I had to make a punt on it, I'd say it's the same time period as in daniel 12:11 the time of persecution under Antiochus Epiphanes and the restoration after)

From Daniel 11:36 the focus goes immediately back to the fighting between the kings of the north and the south.

In any case, the abomination that causes desolation is right in the middle of it: Daniel 11:31.

 

[Charlie24]

From Daniel's perspective, writing while in exile in Babylon, it was all in the future.

Yes, I think v35 looks forward to the final vindication of the wise ones who persevere - at the time of the end, the resurrection. (Daniel 12:2 is the same, and I have to be honest and say that I don't know with any confidence at all what the "at that time" when Michael rises in Daniel 12:1 is. If I had to make a punt on it, I'd say it's the same time period as in daniel 12:11 the time of persecution under Antiochus Epiphanes and the restoration after)

From Daniel 11:36 the focus goes immediately back to the fighting between the kings of the north and the south.

In any case, the abomination that causes desolation is right in the middle of it: Daniel 11:31.

Yes, it is all in the future for Daniel. when I said the past, I speaking of the past for us, and the future for us.

Egypt was in war in our past as Daniel was saying, then he goes into the future (our future) and Egypt is seen in the end at war with Syria again.

This time in the future, Egypt is at war with "the king of the north, that is the anti-christ. He will come from the old Assyrian Empire and is called in the Scripture "the Assyrian."

 

[Hekuran]

Yes, it is all in the future for Daniel. when I said the past, I speaking of the past for us, and the future for us.

Egypt was in war in our past as Daniel was saying, then he goes into the future (our future) and Egypt is seen in the end at war with Syria again.

This time in the future, Egypt is at war with "the king of the north, that is the anti-christ. He will come from the old Assyrian Empire and is called in the Scripture "the Assyrian."

Ok, I'm reading it again, and I don't see anything that causes me to think that there's a time leap at verse 36. And especially from verse 40 it looks very much like a continuation of the same narrative. I'm going to sleep on it now and come back to it in the morning maybe.

What is it that indicates to you that there's a long stretch into the future at verse 36?

 

[Charlie24]

Ok, I'm reading it again, and I don't see anything that causes me to think that there's a time leap at verse 36. And especially from verse 40 it looks very much like a continuation of the same narrative. I'm going to sleep on it now and come back to it in the morning maybe.

What is it that indicates to you that there's a long stretch into the future at verse 36?

OK, just ignore it.

Here's the verses about the Assyrian (the anti-christ) when he comes to destroy Israel (the hypocritical nation), ignore this also.

Isaiah 10:5-7

O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

 

[Charlie24]

Ok, I'm reading it again, and I don't see anything that causes me to think that there's a time leap at verse 36. And especially from verse 40 it looks very much like a continuation of the same narrative. I'm going to sleep on it now and come back to it in the morning maybe.

What is it that indicates to you that there's a long stretch into the future at verse 36?

Let me go ahead and answer your question in the second paragraph, and I'll be done with it.

Patience is not one of my best qualities, I've been through all of this so many times through the years, that I just grow weary of it.

Of course that is not an excuse that God will accept from me, but He knows I'm trying.

To answer the question of "a long stretch of time into the future," Daniel skips the entirety of the Church Age which has been almost 2000 years now.

Israel has been sitting on the back burners so to speak during the Church Age. It is the times of Gentiles to be saved as Paul said.

Daniel's prophesy is about Israel, plain and simple. In Dan. 10:14 we read,

" Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days."

Gabriel told Daniel this is all about "thy people" Israel, so the stretch of time omits the 2000 year (so far) Church Age.

This is the reason for the gap in time, it's all about Israel.

 

[Christ4Ever]

I've heard many pre-tib believers say, the churches will be really crowded right after the rapture. This will be greatest time of revival in history. Perhaps this may be true, but I don't
really see this in the Bible, in fact, it mostly says just the opposite.

Rev 2:21; 'I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality.
Rev 9:20; The rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;
Rev 9:21; and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.
Rev 16:9; Men were scorched with fierce heat; and they blasphemed the name of God who has the power over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory.
Rev 16:11; and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.

It would seem that the vast majority of unbelievers, will remain unsaved during the tribulation. I'm not saying no one will be saved during this time, I just don't see it being a huge revival.

Dan 12:10; "Many will be purged, purified and refined, but the wicked will act wickedly; and none of the wicked will understand, but those who have insight will understand.
Rev 22:11; "Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy."

Dear Brother,
I've just started on the thread, so I have a lot of catching up to do, as seen by the over 12 pages of postings! lol Always an interesting subject brother. Thanks for starting it.

Now on this post above, I guess it is relative. That churches might be filled because of a supernatural occurrence, is not so outside the norm. It brings to mind 9/11 and how churches seemed to fill up, but 6 months later pretty much went back to the numbers that they had before. However, revival? Not so much. I see revivals as being for motivating believers by the outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Though because of the work of the believers some do come to Jesus, but I've seen it really as a way to invigorate the Body of Christ so to speak by the Holy Spirit to get them to be about our Father's business.

Again, thanks for starting this thread. Now to see how the responses go...

With the Love of Christ Jesus Dear Brother.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Hekuran]

Let me go ahead and answer your question in the second paragraph, and I'll be done with it.

Patience is not one of my best qualities, I've been through all of this so many times through the years, that I just grow weary of it.

Of course that is not an excuse that God will accept from me, but He knows I'm trying.

To answer the question of "a long stretch of time into the future," Daniel skips the entirety of the Church Age which has been almost 2000 years now.

Israel has been sitting on the back burners so to speak during the Church Age. It is the times of Gentiles to be saved as Paul said.

Daniel's prophesy is about Israel, plain and simple. In Dan. 10:14 we read,

" Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days."

Gabriel told Daniel this is all about "thy people" Israel, so the stretch of time omits the 2000 year (so far) Church Age.

This is the reason for the gap in time, it's all about Israel.

Sorry, I still see nothing in the text that indicates a dramatic shift in time. The account of the kings of the north and south all seems to belong together in a single period of history.

 

[Hekuran]

Read

OK, just ignore it.

Here's the verses about the Assyrian (the anti-christ) when he comes to destroy Israel (the hypocritical nation), ignore this also.

Isaiah 10:5-7

O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.

6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

See 2 Kings 18 and 19 for the account of the Assyrian king Sennacherib's assault on Judah. It happened during Isaiah's lifetime

 

[Charlie24]

Read

See 2 Kings 18 and 19 for the account of the Assyrian king Sennacherib's assault on Judah. It happened during Isaiah's lifetime

Yes it is, but it's much deeper than that! These prophecies of Isaiah along with Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel, Psalms, the minor prophets, all have a double meaning of prophecy. The future of Israel is reflected in the present of these Scriptures. All of these future events reflected in the present when they were written point to the future salvation of Israel, that is achieved through the anti-christ in the "time of Jacob's Trouble.

You're not going to understand this unless you understand the love God has for Israel and the extremes it takes to bring Israel to Christ.

I didn't discover this, I don't have the intellect. Theologians and scholars have pointed it out and I studied it in Bible School many years ago.

So you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with brilliant men who if they were here, they could explain it much better than I ever could.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes it is, but it's much deeper than that! These prophecies of Isaiah along with Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel, Psalms, the minor prophets, all have a double meaning of prophecy. The future of Israel is reflected in the present of these Scriptures. All of these future events reflected in the present when they were written point to the future salvation of Israel, that is achieved through the anti-christ in the "time of Jacob's Trouble.

You're not going to understand this unless you understand the love God has for Israel and the extremes it takes to bring Israel to Christ.

I didn't discover this, I don't have the intellect. Theologians and scholars have pointed it out and I studied it in Bible School many years ago.

So you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with brilliant men who if they were here, they could explain it much better than I ever could.

All of this is based on the promise God made to Abraham. He promised Abraham that his natural seed would inherit the promised land.

God is not a liar, and He will do whatever it takes to keep that promise to Abraham. Nothing will stop Him.

 

[Hekuran]

Yes it is, but it's much deeper than that! These prophecies of Isaiah along with Ezekiel, Jeremiah, Daniel, Psalms, the minor prophets, all have a double meaning of prophecy. The future of Israel is reflected in the present of these Scriptures. All of these future events reflected in the present when they were written point to the future salvation of Israel, that is achieved through the anti-christ in the "time of Jacob's Trouble.

You're not going to understand this unless you understand the love God has for Israel and the extremes it takes to bring Israel to Christ.

I didn't discover this, I don't have the intellect. Theologians and scholars have pointed it out and I studied it in Bible School many years ago.

So you're not arguing with me, you're arguing with brilliant men who if they were here, they could explain it much better than I ever could.

I'm sceptical about double meaning of prophecy approaches to the old testament. It seems to me to be license to weave together different passages of the Bible to create any interpretation that suits the interpreter.

So: how do you know when there is a dual meaning in an old testament prophecy? What are the boundaries in interpretation that prevent the unwary from falling into error or false teaching?

Honest question.