Christians & Demon Possession

Ophel · Jan 7, 2012

jiggyfly said:
When you say enemy are you referring to devil?
So do you think that any and everything that opposes God is of the devil?

Strongholds are established in the mind of man by the work of Satan against us, and no, we can oppose God quite well on our own.

El Hombre viejo · Jan 7, 2012

Ophel said:
Strongholds are established in the mind of man by the work of Satan against us, and no, we can oppose God quite well on our own.

Where does the WORD say we can sin where there is no temptation?

Here are the dynamics of sin. How sin works James 1:14-16
Man cannot sin without he is tempted. Which is why there is salvation for man but not for Satan. Satan does not need to be tempted.

So Yes Jigger. Anything that opposes God is of the devil.

Ophel · Jan 7, 2012

El Hombre viejo said:
Where does the WORD say we can sin where there is no temptation?

Here are the dynamics of sin. How sin works James 1:14-16
Man cannot sin without he is tempted. Which is why there is salvation for man but not for Satan. Satan does not need to be tempted.

So Yes Jigger. Anything that opposes God is of the devil.

Human beings are not able to do good on their own. We are inherently wicked. We don't need the devil to inspire us to do evil, but that doesn't preclude Satan from interfering and doing his dirty work in and through people.

Psalm 14:3
They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.

Man is wicked all in his own power, apart from Satan's meddling influence.

Proverbs 6:13-19

The Wicked Man
12 A worthless person, a wicked man,
Walks with a perverse mouth;
13 He winks with his eyes,
He shuffles his feet,
He points with his fingers;
14 Perversity is in his heart,
He devises evil continually,
He sows discord.
15 Therefore his calamity shall come suddenly;
Suddenly he shall be broken without remedy.
16 These six things the LORD hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

El Hombre viejo · Jan 7, 2012

Ophel said:
Human beings are not able to do good on their own. We are inherently wicked. We don't need the devil to inspire us to do evil, but that doesn't preclude Satan from interfering and doing his dirty work in and through people.

Psalm 14:3
They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.

Man is wicked all in his own power, apart from Satan's meddling influence.

Proverbs 6:13-19

The Wicked Man
12 A worthless person, a wicked man,
Walks with a perverse mouth;
13 He winks with his eyes,
He shuffles his feet,
He points with his fingers;
14 Perversity is in his heart,
He devises evil continually,
He sows discord.
15 Therefore his calamity shall come suddenly;
Suddenly he shall be broken without remedy.
16 These six things the LORD hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

You're not wrong except in the order of things. Instead of making man from an original
design, God used Himself as the pattern. (See Genesis
verses 26-27.) When God created man, He actually
copied Himself.

God made us in HIS image Perfect Not sinful. James 1:14-16 is the reason for all the 'sinful' nature we had before we were saved.

Ophel · Jan 7, 2012

El Hombre viejo said:
You're not wrong except in the order of things. Instead of making man from an original
design, God used Himself as the pattern. (See Genesis
verses 26-27.) When God created man, He actually
copied Himself.

God made us in HIS image Perfect Not sinful. James 1:14-16 is the reason for all the 'sinful' nature we had before we were saved.

Our sinful nature comes from the fall of man and simply the fact that we are born into this wicked world.

Romans 7:5
When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death.

Ephesians 4:22
throw off your old sinful nature and your former way of life, which is corrupted by lust and deception.

Colossians 3:9
Don’t lie to each other, for you have stripped off your old sinful nature and all its wicked deeds.

When we receive Jesus Christ, our spirits become perfect within us as they were created to be.

jiggyfly · Jan 7, 2012

El Hombre viejo said:
Where does the WORD say we can sin where there is no temptation?

Here are the dynamics of sin. How sin works James 1:14-16
Man cannot sin without he is tempted. Which is why there is salvation for man but not for Satan. Satan does not need to be tempted.

So Yes Jigger. Anything that opposes God is of the devil.

I know this won't be a shock to you but we disagree. Do you consider self to be Satan.
Is your carnal mind Satan?
Is your flesh Satan?

Ophel · Jan 7, 2012

jiggyfly said:
I know this won't be a shock to you but we disagree. Do you consider self to be Satan.
Is your carnal mind Satan?
Is your flesh Satan?

I don't understand where those questions are coming from.

Ophel · Jan 7, 2012

jiggyfly said:
I know this won't be a shock to you but we disagree. Do you consider self to be Satan.
Is your carnal mind Satan?
Is your flesh Satan?

Double post.

El Hombre viejo · Jan 7, 2012

jiggyfly said:
I know this won't be a shock to you but we disagree. Do you consider self to be Satan.
Is your carnal mind Satan?
Is your flesh Satan?

Let me answer with another question....

If you were made in Gods image....If you were made in all ways Perfect, without sin. Why would your flesh be Satan? Why would you even have a sinful nature? Did GOD create sin and instill it in you? No That's foolishness isn't it? The fact of the matter is...GOD made you perfect A perfect image of HIMSELF who is perfect. Its the only way we could fellowship with HIM as Adam did. Sin only came into the world through Satan and still does.

Before time even began God saw us as perfect. Then HE made us that way. Read Genesis 1

jiggyfly · Jan 8, 2012

Ophel said:
I don't understand where those questions are coming from.

IT's OK, the questions were not directed towards you. That's why I quoted the text I was questioning and it starts with the person's name.

El Hombre viejo · Jan 8, 2012

jiggyfly said:
IT's OK, the questions were not directed towards you. That's why I quoted the text I was questioning and it starts with the person's name.

Hmmm I wonder why my reply was removed....

As I said...I did not come back to TJ to fight so please drop the bad feelings and let bygones be bygones.

jiggyfly · Jan 8, 2012

El Hombre viejo said:
Hmmm I wonder why my reply was removed....

As I said...I did not come back to TJ to fight so please drop the bad feelings and let bygones be bygones.

I have no bad/ill feelings towards you just don't trust you because of your behavior here at TJ in the past.
Your post was deleted because you were insinuating that I was operating under wrong motive. I deleted it for your benefit. But I can easily un-delete it if you wish?

El Hombre viejo · Jan 8, 2012

jiggyfly said:
I have no bad/ill feelings towards you just don't trust you because of your behavior here at TJ in the past.
Your post was deleted because you were insinuating that I was operating under wrong motive. I deleted it for your benefit. But I can easily un-delete it if you wish?

Nah S'ok Jigger I have no expectations I'm still your friend

MorningStar · Jan 9, 2012

El Hombre viejo said:
Let me answer with another question....

If you were made in Gods image....If you were made in all ways Perfect, without sin. Why would your flesh be Satan? Why would you even have a sinful nature? Did GOD create sin and instill it in you? No That's foolishness isn't it? The fact of the matter is...GOD made you perfect A perfect image of HIMSELF who is perfect. Its the only way we could fellowship with HIM as Adam did. Sin only came into the world through Satan and still does.

Before time even began God saw us as perfect. Then HE made us that way. Read Genesis 1

This is a great topic, but I see many mistakes here, according to some 'layman' definitions.

Firstly, terms like Satan, devil, serpent, Lucifer, etc. are not interchangeable. They are not the same entity. Unfortunately this has been confused due to the re-writing and re-translating of the bible over the years, mostly by the Roman Catholic Church.

But, my main point here is that just because something is directly attributed to Satan, it does NOT mean it is 100% directly against God's word, as God created Satan, just as God created evil. It was recently pointed out to me that God creating evil was simply part of his perfect plan.

Yes, that was his plan, and he backs this up in Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

Semantics to some, but its an important distinction. Even well meaning pastors get this wrong constantly. (Including mine unfortunately lol).

El Hombre viejo · Jan 10, 2012

MorningStar said:
This is a great topic, but I see many mistakes here, according to some 'layman' definitions.

Firstly, terms like Satan, devil, serpent, Lucifer, etc. are not interchangeable. They are not the same entity. Unfortunately this has been confused due to the re-writing and re-translating of the bible over the years, mostly by the Roman Catholic Church.

But, my main point here is that just because something is directly attributed to Satan, it does NOT mean it is 100% directly against God's word, as God created Satan, just as God created evil. It was recently pointed out to me that God creating evil was simply part of his perfect plan.

Yes, that was his plan, and he backs this up in Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

Semantics to some, but its an important distinction. Even well meaning pastors get this wrong constantly. (Including mine unfortunately lol).

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:TrackMoves/> <w:TrackFormatting/> <w

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ontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/> <w

ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Well!! You have a deliciously different sense of humor.
I know that you are not serious. You've been talking about translations of the name of the Evil One and you overlook mistranslations of other words. See how I know you're joking? LOL

In a sense I guess you could say GOD created evil, indirectly. HE created Lucifer, Lucifer rebelled and sin resulted. Truly though Satan is the author of death. Not God. GOD is LIGHT. 1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of HIM, and declare unto you, that GOD is LIGHT, and in HIM is no darkness at all.
· 1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion(evil), but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Satan on the other hand is a liar. And the father of lies.
John 8:44 (King James Version)
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Do you know why he created evil directly? Because he Lucifer, Satan, Beelzebub, whatever you choose to call him, abode not in the truth. He chose to go his own way. He walked out of the LIGHT.

This argument that GOD created evil has only one mistranslated verse to back it up.

There are opposites for everything GOD gave us. He is GOOD, LIGHT, HEALING, BLESSING, LIFE, SALVATION, etc. Step away from HIM, turn away from HIM and you walk into the opposites. You step away from the BLESSING and into cursing. Satan’s realm. You step away from life and into death. You step away from prosperity into poverty.
Oh yes!! One more thing….Read Genesis 1-2 once more. Creation. On which day did God create evil? Its not mentioned in the first six days, and on the seventh HE rested. Not because HE was tired but because HE was finished.

Genesis 2:2-3 (King James Version)

2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

El Hombre viejo · Jan 10, 2012

MorningStar said:
This is a great topic, but I see many mistakes here, according to some 'layman' definitions.

Firstly, terms like Satan, devil, serpent, Lucifer, etc. are not interchangeable. They are not the same entity. Unfortunately this has been confused due to the re-writing and re-translating of the bible over the years, mostly by the Roman Catholic Church.

But, my main point here is that just because something is directly attributed to Satan, it does NOT mean it is 100% directly against God's word, as God created Satan, just as God created evil. It was recently pointed out to me that God creating evil was simply part of his perfect plan.

Yes, that was his plan, and he backs this up in Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

Semantics to some, but its an important distinction. Even well meaning pastors get this wrong constantly. (Including mine unfortunately lol).

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ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Well!! You have a deliciously different sense of humor.
I know that you are not serious. You've been talking about translations of the name of the Evil One and you overlook mistranslations of other words. See how I know you're joking? LOL

In a sense I guess you could say GOD created evil, indirectly. HE created Lucifer, Lucifer rebelled and sin resulted. Truly though Satan is the author of death. Not God. GOD is LIGHT. 1 John 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of HIM, and declare unto you, that GOD is LIGHT, and in HIM is no darkness at all.
· 1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion(evil), but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Satan on the other hand is a liar. And the father of lies.
John 8:44 (King James Version)
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Do you know why he created evil directly? Because he Lucifer, Satan, Beelzebub, whatever you choose to call him, abode not in the truth. He chose to go his own way. He walked out of the LIGHT.

This argument that GOD created evil has only one mistranslated verse to back it up.

There are opposites for everything GOD gave us. He is GOOD, LIGHT, HEALING, BLESSING, LIFE, SALVATION, etc. Step away from HIM, turn away from HIM and you walk into the opposites. You step away from the BLESSING and into cursing. Satan’s realm. You step away from life and into death. You step away from prosperity into poverty.
Oh yes!! One more thing….Read Genesis 1-2 once more. Creation. On which day did God create evil? Its not mentioned in the first six days, and on the seventh HE rested. Not because HE was tired but because HE was finished.

Genesis 2:2-3 (King James Version)

2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

I'm sorry about all the different sizes of the text. I oopsed there hey?

El Hombre viejo · Jan 10, 2012

Another oops

I see I did a double post. Uuummm. It really wasn't a mistake.....Uumm I just like to see the words I write sooo much!!

Could it be I'm intoxicated by the exuberance of my own effervescent verbosity?

MorningStar · Jan 10, 2012

The Hebrew translation of Isaiah 45:7 states god created evil, quite clearly.

If he made Satan, AND evil, then its not created 'indirectly'.

Is simply hard for most people to understand that it was part of his perfect plan.

To illustrate this point, consider this...

Did God create everything in the universe?

If not, then who did?

Once again, Isaiah 45:7 states clearly god created ALL those things.

As does Colossians 1:16 - "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

El Hombre viejo · Jan 10, 2012

MorningStar said:
The Hebrew translation of Isaiah 45:7 states god created evil, quite clearly.

If he made Satan, AND evil, then its not created 'indirectly'.

Is simply hard for most people to understand that it was part of his perfect plan.

To illustrate this point, consider this...

Did God create everything in the universe?

If not, then who did?

Once again, Isaiah 45:7 states clearly god created ALL those things.

As does Colossians 1:16 - "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

It would appear that you are ignoring the other scriptures I gave you

Thiscrosshurts · Jan 10, 2012

Firstly, terms like Satan, devil, serpent, Lucifer, etc. are not interchangeable. They are not the same entity. Unfortunately this has been confused due to the re-writing and re-translating of the bible over the years, mostly by the Roman Catholic Church.

This is true and is important.

Satan on the other hand is a liar. And the father of lies.
John 8:44 (King James Version)
44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Yes, that is Satan,he is the prince of the power of the air,the ruler of the kingdoms of world.However there is no evidence that he was the serpent in the garden or that he is Lucifer(son of the morning or eh..bright morning star) or that he was a son of God,a fallen angel or an anointed cherub.

On which day did God create evil? Its not mentioned in the first six days, and on the seventh HE rested.

Good question, I don't have a direct answer but the Lamb of God was slain from the foundation of the world and that is not mentioned in Genesis either.I follow your point but we have to satisfy all scripture before we know we have a perfect fit.

There is of course the verse that Morningstar mentioned
Isaiah 45:7 - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”

Also these verses seem to suggest that God was actually in control the whole time.
Romans 8:19 The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
Romans 8:21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

This was not a remedy to a mistake by man or to rectify a rebellion by a dark angel.
Colossians 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
The alternative is to somehow believe God was duped by Satan and didn't see it coming.

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