Death

[christserf]

teraside:

Does he fall asleep?

In a sense, yes. Death is called sleep many times in the Bible, in verses that have been quoted already. Does that, in and of itself, mean that they are unconcious and aware of nothing? No, because you are conscious when you sleep, for example, you dream.

Does he go to heaven?

I don't know about Scriptures which specifically talk about "going to heaven when you die", but here are Scriptures which talk about the consciousness of the dead.

2Cr 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight) We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Also remember the account of the rich man and Lazarus, which is not a parable.

Luk 16:19-23 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

It was never called a parable, and it speaks of certain people.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

 

[baruch]

Re Death

Hi SpiritledEd, if you read on in 1Peter 3;20; It implies that, the imprisoned spirits are those who disobeyed God before the flood when only eight were saved( raptured if you like) It's like they were given a second chance when Jesus went and preached to them.
It may be like the work of the 144000 in Rev 7, who will preach after the pre trib rapture to give a second chance to the left behind.


Hallelujah, Jesus is coming. MARANATHA!

 

[Faithful Son]

led by the spirit I am absolutely in utter disgust reading your posts, it brings tremendous sorrow to my heart, you have a way of twisting the Word of God to suit your needs and what you are trying to say, and to be quite frank I don't appreciate it. Anyone may disagree with me. I pray to God that He will open your eyes and set you straight.

How can you compare an animal with a living person? No amount of wording or literature can condone your reality. I follow my God, my Jesus, He makes all clear to me, I would appreciate it if you post the scripture supporting what you say, don't tell me to see this or that passage in the Bible, it is a twisted way of doing things.

I read carefully and clearly without judgement through your posts, but I will say I am not glad, I'm not happy, the Word of God is absolute truth and is not left to human interpretation, read what you want between the lines, I don't care.

You can't say the transfuguration was a vision, you weren't there, you can't make an analysis of the scripture, you are not Divine, were you there? Did you experience it for yourself? No you weren't.

Your posts were senseless rambling, sensless to say the least, this subject is about death, not your personal analysis and views.

Please make sure what you want to say, before you say it. Pray before you post and ask God to lead you in your writing, I am absolutely appauled.

 

[friendtoall]

[edited by Chad: removed garbage doctrine and link]

Your testimony in your profile says:

Jesus is the Son of God our savior, God is our father in heven.

Wrong. Jesus is SAVIOR and GOD Himself, Son of GOD

 

[stephen]

To get a better understanding of it all i would exort you to read 2 Nephi 9, the hole chapter talks about it. You can find it in the book of mormon. goto lds.org. I hope it helps.

What tripe?


Those of us who support 'talkjesus' with our testimony and praise, do not support the teachings of morman, the self styled, self titled "latter day saints", and such teachings, books and ideas coming from them.

Those of us who support 'talkjesus with our testimony and praise, support the teachings of the bible. We follow Jesus. Jesus is the example for our lifestyle and teachings.

I recall that the great bible preacher and Evangelist Billy Graham, never granted the mormon, involvement in his meetings. Billy Graham believes that mormons need to be saved. So do I. Saved from their apostate book, and self indulgent lifestyle.

Billy Graham never directed any who responded to his 'altar call' to mormom. Mr Graham had only one person on his mind when he preached........he directed folks to Jesus.

Jesus said "I am the Way the Truth and the Life" John ch 14

Without the WAY ........ there is no GOING
Without the TRUTH ....there is no KNOWING
Without the LIFE .........there is no LIVING

We should be thrilled that we have the bible. Without the bible we would all be lost in the morass of humanism, and error.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

To: FriendToAll

Our forum rules state specifically that this site is based only on the Bible and that no one can post links until they have logged 50 posts on TalkJesus.

Please read and observe the Forum rules.


SLE

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Hi SpiritledEd, if you read on in 1Peter 3;20; It implies that, the imprisoned spirits are those who disobeyed God before the flood when only eight were saved( raptured if you like) It's like they were given a second chance when Jesus went and preached to them.
It may be like the work of the 144000 in Rev 7, who will preach after the pre trib rapture to give a second chance to the left behind.
_________________________________________________________________________
Greetings
What happened next in the gospel record after His resurrection to spirit? What did Jesus do after arising from the dead? Some might suggest that He revealed Himself to His disciples, which He did, but not by any stretch of meaning could it be described as going and proclaiming to imprisoned spirits! No, John tells us through the words of Jesus Himself to Mary Magdalene what the next momentous occurrence was: "[G]o to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God'" (John 20:17). When Jesus "went," He ascended in glory to the right hand of the Father in heaven!

At this point, we will skip to the phrase "spirits in prison." First, let's note that the Bible does not refer to human beings who have died as being imprisoned in any way, not even those who have rebelled against and rejected God. They may be said to be "destroyed" or "killed" or "cut off" or sent to "Sheol," which is a pit or grave, but they are never imprisoned. As we saw, humans who die return to the dust of which they are made (see Gen 3:19;Ecc 3:19-20).

However, the Bible speaks in several places about spirit beings—angels or demons—being imprisoned (see II Peter 2:4-5, where Peter again refers to Noah's time; Jude 6; and Revelation20:1-3, 7). Rebellious angels, unlike mortal humans, must be imprisoned because angels or demons, being composed of spirit, do not die as humans do. The "angels who sinned," Peter and Jude say, were cast down to Tartarus ("a place of restraint," a prison) where they are bound until God judges them. This Tartarus, this "hell" where the demons are restrained, is none other than their "first estate," their "proper domain," earth (seeEze 28:17 ; Rev 12:7-9)!

Second, Peter's use of "spirits" is consistent with its use in the gospels (see, for instance,Matt 8:16;12:45; ;Mark3:11; ;5:13;6:7Luke 11:26; etc.). In the gospels, "spirits" consistently denotes "evil spirits," "demons," "wicked spirits." It is highly likely that Peter refers to demons in I Peter 3:19.

This is confirmed by the first phrase of verse 20, "who formerly were disobedient" (NKJV) or "who disobeyed long ago" (New International Version, [NIV]). Peter is speaking of a time in deep antiquity, a time before the Flood. Perhaps he does not intend us to think of Satan's original sin of rebellion against God (Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28), although it may be included, but specifically of the demons' corruption of mankind between the Creation and the Flood.

This would explain his time marker in the next phrase, "when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built" (NIV). In Satan's sin, only the demons themselves were affected, but when they corrupted mankind, human beings who were potential sons of God were affected. Once men and women began sinning under the influence of Satan and his demon horde, the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ became necessary.

Peter's point, then, is that, though the wicked spirits seemed to be so successful in corrupting mankind, God patiently waited during Noah's 120-year ministry to save only eight people by bringing them through the Flood, delivering them through a kind of baptism. The demons had failed to destroy mankind. So also, by having Jesus crucified, the demons thought again they had won, but through the resurrection, Jesus had the victory instead. Baptism is a type of this same victory, as it is a symbolic death of the old, wicked man and of his resurrection to newness of life (see Rom 6:4).

If the spirits referred to in 1 Pet 3:19 are not human spirits, what are they? They couldn't be demons because Satan and his demons were cast out of heaven (see Rev 12:7 and Lk 10:18).

God's angels don't need to be preached to; the devil's angels (demons) are banned from heaven (cast out). Who's left, if not human spirits?


SLE

 

[christserf]

Led by the Spirit:

Christserf wrote:
Also remember the account of the rich man and Lazarus, which is not a parable.
It was never called a parable, and it speaks of certain people.
__________________________________________________ _________
Greetings
Luke 15:3 Clearly says that is is.It was one of many that Jesus spoke of that day.

Luk 15:3-4 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? ...

Luk 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find [it]?

It says "this parable", singular. Furthermore, the account of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk. 16:19) comes after a break in Jesus' speaking (Lk 16:14). And if it was a parable, show me from the Bible what it was a parable of.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

 

[SpiritLedEd]

"When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes, two demon possessed men coming from the tombs met him......'What do you wantr with us, Son of God? Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?'" (Mt 8:28-29)

God does not waste time. The demons already knew who Jesus was and what he was doing. And they knew that they had been cast out of heaven with no chance to get back in. (See Lk 10:18 and Rev 12:7)

SLE

 

[Chad]

I have wiped out "LedBytheSpirit" posts. They are thrash, worthless NOT Holy Spirit led Scripture. So long satan!

Hello Jesus as always

Keep talking about Jesus folks. The garbage has been taken out already. Back to the main topic.

 

[jculver]

Led by the Spirit:

Luk 15:3-4 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it? ...

Luk 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find [it]?

It says "this parable", singular. Furthermore, the account of the rich man and Lazarus (Lk. 16:19) comes after a break in Jesus' speaking (Lk 16:14). And if it was a parable, show me from the Bible what it was a parable of.

In Yahweh's Love and Truth,

Christ's Serf

You could really debate the Rich man and Lazarus all day long. It was one of the first things I have studied when I came to Christ. Personally I am still a little agnostic about the intermediate state, or the state of people who are currently dead.

The most significant writing I have found on the subject, which takes the position of soul sleep, is by E.W. Bullinger. He has writing about it called "The Rich man and Lazarus". Most the time, the doctrine of soul sleep is accompanied with the doctrine of annihilation, which says the wicked will be annihilated instead of consciously tormented forever.

Be careful spending too much time on these things. They ate up probably the first month of my walk with Christ, and the arguments for annihilation and soul sleep can be extremely well put together, and often are based on the original language so you have to be careful if you don't have much experience debating against those things. It's a tough piece of scripture to analyze IMHO.

For me the bottom line is this: When you fall asleep and wake up how much time do you feel has passed? None. You may dream, but still for me it always feels as if I blinked my eyes and woke up (usually feeling tired). So it really doesn’t matter too much IMHO. When you die as a Christian, soul sleep or not, the next thing you know you will be in heaven.

EDIT: I forgot to add one thing Some times "Fell asleep" is a figure of speech used for a the death of a Christian. See in acts when Stephen was stoned. (7:60)

 

[Faithful Son]

Good day jculver, I agree with part of what you say, but I'd like you to remember one thing. When you are a Christian, you're not agnostic, you are saved by grace through Jesus Christ the Lord of lords, you may have said it as a figure of speech, and I really don't want to sound mean or harsh, but refrain from calling yourself agnostic if you are a Christian, no matter in what context it's said, we believe in God, in Jesus Christ. Let us always remember that.

Much love
teraside (thanks for this discussion guys, I love you all)

 

[jculver]

Good day jculver, I agree with part of what you say, but I'd like you to remember one thing. When you are a Christian, you're not agnostic, you are saved by grace through Jesus Christ the Lord of lords, you may have said it as a figure of speech, and I really don't want to sound mean or harsh, but refrain from calling yourself agnostic if you are a Christian, no matter in what context it's said, we believe in God, in Jesus Christ. Let us always remember that.

Much love
teraside (thanks for this discussion guys, I love you all)

To clarify, I said I was "agnostic on the issue" Although agnosticism can be considered a religion, it was a simple noun way before that, and still is

agnostic: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something
(from Merriam Webster)

As for a person who calls themselves an agnostic as a religous view, they are unwilling to commit to an opinion about God.

Sometimes I am unwilling to commit to an opinion on the issue of soul sleep before the final resurrections. That’s all I meant I have definitly committed to an opinion about the one true God. Thanks for making sure though ;D

 

[Eclipse]

We you die one of two things will happen, either death will take you to hades (if you are an unbeliever) or Jesus will great you and you will be taken to 'Paradise' (which is a waiting place for christians as far as I can recall).

 

[Faithful Son]

That's wonderful Eclipse, in laymens terms, heaven and hell. What I currently believe is that I will definitely see my maker when I die, He will be the first touch of my hand I feel, but it is extremely interesting to see different peoples views about it.

I must say, I was totally converted from believing what I was taught growing up, just from watching a regular Christian television show, but it left me empty, without peace and that is why I needed some clarification.

Please continue this discussion based on what you believe everyone.

 

[jculver]

That's wonderful Eclipse, in laymens terms, heaven and hell. What I currently believe is that I will definitely see my maker when I die, He will be the first touch of my hand I feel, but it is extremely interesting to see different peoples views about it.

I must say, I was totally converted from believing what I was taught growing up, just from watching a regular Christian television show, but it left me empty, without peace and that is why I needed some clarification.

Please continue this discussion based on what you believe everyone.

Well I have to mention that from Genisis 1 to Luke 16 there is no mention of any dead person anywhere, but the grave. Enoch was wisked away to heaven, but no one who died was mentioned anywhere. Hades is best translated as "The Grave". Some claim it should be translated "The Unseen", but either way it was not defined as a place of fiery torment initially.

Luke 16 seems to say that it is, but also there is at least some symbolism there. If we take everything in the Rich man and Lazarus literally then apparently Christians don't get burried at all, we get wisked to heaven by angels, while the non believers who die get buried and then end up somewhere else.

The pharasees beliefs were obviously not the same as Christs. We know this for certain. It is possible he was throwing their traditions right in their faces. There is a lot of evidence to suggest that he was. The rich man was never said to be a horrible sinner. Lazarus was never said to have been saved. Why would Abraham remind the rich man that he was rich in his life time as if it had something to do with him being in torment? Abraham himself was very rich (Gen 13:2), and any American now enjoys amazing "riches" far beyond what the rich man did.

Anyway I don't want to go flying off the handle debating for the soul sleep position. Being in torments waiting for the lake of fire could be like being in prison waiting for the execution. For me it comes down to why would God put this in his word if it was there to confuse us? It is probably best to assume that it is literal, and so I tend to lean away from the soul sleep position although I think it has valid arguments.

Also I have to speak about this verse:

Ecclesiastes 9:5-6, 10, NIV. "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten. Their love, their hate and their jealousy have long since vanished; never again will they have a part in anything that happens under the sun… Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the grave, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom."

Much of this book is written not from Solomon's perspective, but the perspective of a non- believer. Starting in chapter 2 you see he wanted to see what it was like for a Godless man, and he tested all of mans so called "wisdom" and literally put himself in their shoes.

 

[Girl]

So..i havnt read this entire thread...

scrolling down, and scanning the page, it looks like theres been some topic change.. or some debate going on.. So.. im posting this regarding the original post topic..

Firstly... i don’t think anyone can be too sure, what happens to our consciousness after we die.. Ive heard so many things...

But I personally believe that we do go to a heaven or hell..

Why?

Well..

My Dad and I don’t really talk much… But I do remember something he told me a while back.. It was VERY interesting.

We were on the topic of teeth, actually. I had a dental appointment that day……..and was petrified that the may yank one of my back teeth out…… He was telling me how the people in Greece (where he use to live) ate healthily.. And for that reason, they died with a mouth full of teeth ..still intact.. (his point was, they never had falsies.. Or had to suffer from a tooth ache or anything)…….. ß-------- But this is completely off topic…

Anyway he knew this… because as a young boy, for fun, he would go to the cemetery.. to watch the men work. They lived in an extremely… ……extremely poor part of Greece.. in Crete. In the cemetery, to make room for new bodies, men had to re-dig some of the old bodies.. Back in this time… he didn’t have anything better to do.. Being in a poor part of Greece, they didn’t have TVs, novels, shops or anything like that… to entertain themselves with…….. so he found it fascinating, watching these men dig up old skeletal bones..


His original point was… the skulls.. Their teeth were still undamaged and in full form..

but…….. he continued..

He said that on the skulls that had been freshly dug, from their grave…… there was a marking engraved into them. A strange marking. He believed that angels must have placed these markings on their skulls, as an indication, to show that this person had been accepted into heaven…

I asked him what these markings had looked like… But he couldn’t remember the exact image.. He explained that it was absolutely impossible to have been done by a man… because it wasn’t just an engraving, which had simply been scratched into the skull.. It was more complicated. It was as though, it was carved from the inside..

Like ….. … Imagine you are holding a steel tin, right? Then imagine you got a nail and carved an image from the inside. How that would look from the outside.. That’s how these were drawn..

My Dad wouldn’t lie about this kind of thing…and he doesn’t exaggerate the truth. He’s the most serious person…

So anyway….. I believe that we do go somewhere after we die…Possibly Heaven, or Hell…. I also find it believable that an angel may engrave a sign, or a marking of some kind, as an indication of something… Whether we are saved, perhaps?

 

[Faithful Son]

That's interesting girl, it's really totally new to me. One thing I'd like to correct you on though is that an Angel won't mark a human, especially not from the inside, have you ever thought of it this way, maybe that marking was made while those people were alive and breathing? By the Holy Spirit of God?

Ephesians 1:12-14 (New International Version)

12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession—to the praise of his glory.

I'd rather have God mark me with something than leave it up to His Angels to do hehehe

Much love
teraside

 

[diamarie]

K.. Umm..
Could anybody condense all that for me? I'm clueless... LOL..

 

[jculver]

K.. Umm..
Could anybody condense all that for me? I'm clueless... LOL..

I will

Some people say when you are dead you "soul sleep" awaiting your final destination (heaven or hell).

Others say you go there immediatly.

Big argument for position 1: The language of the old testament seems to indicate this.

Big Argument for position 2: Luke 16 (Rich man and Lazarus)

The end!

Hope this helps

God Bless