Dilemmas in spite of (or because of) faith.

[Born Again 2004]

Phew! what a dissertation!
Look Kirby, I know you probably can't understand this but I love you already and, you can "Dumb-Down" to me anytime, if it suits your ego.

As I asked B-A-C, in your opinion, does God’s omnipotence entail the capacity (whether or not he wants to) to save me despite my failure to accept Christ? Or do you think he is constrained by the necessity of the Resurrection? You and I seem to entertain divergent notions of “omnipotence.” Obviously, you find yours to be consistent with your belief in God. Would you mind please trying to explain what that understanding is?

• Once you become a believer God will fill up your curiosities and erase this type of untruth. Of course God wants to despite or in-spite of your failures...He did mine! But Jesus is the key....no one comes unto the Father unless it is through the son!
• He is God, he is not constrained by anything, that would be impossible for perfection. Besides he commanded and provided for the perfect way to eternal life, the Resurrection.
• To fully understand this, one has to understand: You mus rest in the finality of the cross, in order to experience the Resurrection.
• Through out the Bible, God has always given man choice. I would love nothing more than to be able to call you an eternal Bother but the choice is up to you!

 

[Hekuran]

I would love nothing more than to be able to call you an eternal Bother.

Looking forward to being a bother to you for all eternity.

 

[Dave M]

Kirby

are you a sinner? can you stop sinning?


thanks

 

[Christ4Ever]

Dear @Kirby D. P.
You always make for an interesting read

As you know faith falls into both the religious and secular realms.
However each is deliberate. It reflects a persons confidence in something. Be it stepping unto an aircraft to fly 40 thousand feet or to bend down to ones knees to God. In each case one does not have to understand at the time the specifics of each action and why it should work, or the number of times its been done, or even that others are doing it as well. This is not to say that in some way there are not some who are intimate enough to know the whys or wherefores or others that do it for there own undefined reasons. Still, even in those cases, it does require the individual to give up a part of themselves and place it upon something or someone else. In other words they are showing their "faith", be it to the abilities of man or of God.

Where my faith resides, all I can say is what Peter said. "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life." Great comfort to all the ones who are to die. Which is the question you should ask. To whom should you turn to? And turn you will, though currently it appears to be to your own intellect or the reflection in a mirror. I hope you understand that there is no insult intended in those words Dear Kirby.

Your awareness of yourself is in better standing than ourselves of you. However, I would like to know. Do you think it will provide you as the world falls down around you, and that final breath closes in upon you, that you'll be comforted in the knowing that though you've done your best, but you're still going to die? Isn't that the real dilemma here. The choice between Death or Life?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><

Psalm 39:7

 

[Born Again 2004]

Looking forward to being a bother to you for all eternity.

It really is a wondrous thing; a miracle. The written word at TJ is a, crude away at best , to communicate...up close personal , face to face, is a much better way!
Because we are fellow believers and "Brothers In Christ", we share a common goal, to meet up again in heaven, be face to face, where we will talk and laugh and remember this very moment!

 

[Born Again 2004]

As you know faith falls into both the religious and secular realms.

@Christ4Ever , I mean no disrespect because I know from where you come. I think the secular way is to confuse faith with something else, called trust.
In the confines of God and TJ, faith comes from God and a believer has no issue knowing what it is. On the other hand, much like sin, a non-believer or secular person does not understand faith....what they have is trust in something or someone other than God. If they had trust in God, it would come as a believer and it would be faith. Sadly, they have no trust in God because they don't know him!

 

[Christ4Ever]

@Christ4Ever , I mean no disrespect because I know from where you come. I think the secular way is to confuse faith with something else, called trust.
In the confines of God and TJ, faith comes from God and a believer has no issue knowing what it is. On the other hand, much like sin, a non-believer or secular person does not understand faith....what they have is trust in something or someone other than God. If they had trust in God, it would come as a believer and it would be faith. Sadly, they have no trust in God because they don't know him!

I understand what you're saying, but must disagree with the position that the secular does not have faith. The difference is the purpose to which this faith is used. I'm sure you agree that to every man there has been given a measure of faith. (Romans 12:3). However, we as believers know this source to be God, but the unbeliever himself. So, what differs is the application of the faith that is given to all man. The trust and confidence we have is in God, for the secular is in themselves. So, what we as believers seek is that this faith that all have been given be redirected in/to Christ Jesus. It will then be enough unto belief and unto Salvation!!! Alleluia!

I hope this clarifies a bit on what I was trying to say to Kirby dear brother.

With the Love of Christ Jesus brother!
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Kirby D. P.]

...If you put faith in a history book written by men about George Washington... why is it harder to put faith in another history book written about Jesus?

Indeed, I am fairly well versed on priestly Judaism before the 2nd destruction of the Temple and I am fascinated with the nexus between the ways rabbinic diaspora Judaism and Christianity departed from roughly the same springboard as they evolved in the ensuing years in such very different ways. (That’s not to put them on any heavenly equal footing. If Jesus is Christ, modern Judaism is just wrong.)

The notion of atonement and the absolution of sin is absolutely the crux of the matter, as you point out. No matter what my level of belief may be, there is a powerful consistency in the idea of the Crucifixion –– the absolving sacrifice to outdo all other sacrifice. My impression is not enough attention is paid to the very “Christian” (no offense intended) impulse behind the continuing Jewish tradition of Yom Kippur. And my sense is too much emphasis is placed on the association between Passover and Easter, mostly because of the Last Supper and their coincidence on the calendar. Also, if the Crucifixion had occurred during Yom Kippur at the Temple, it comes to me Jesus might well have been referred to as the “Goat of God” instead of the “[Pascal] Lamb of God.” Very much the wrong idea, I think.

Thank you for drawing my attention to the nonconformist Mormon and Muslim traditions surrounding Jesus. Yes, I realize now these and other non-Christian views on Jesus are quite sufficient to answer my, “Where is the mythical Jesus,” query.

I promise I place no more faith in any book on Washington than I do in the Bible. And you are right, its form has remained amazingly resilient for the past 2 millennia. But despite that, there’s no getting around there are differences, no matter how small, between the different versions. Not just between the several modern English versions, but even going back to differences between the Pentateuch, the Septuagint, and the same material in the Volgate and the KJV.

Given your opinion of God’s involvement in tending to the transmission of the Bible down the ages, do you consider these technical differences to be God ensuring scripture always takes the form required by its current readers? Are they significant differences inspired by God, worthy of study as intense as any other facet of scripture? Or as the “noise in the signal” of fallible human dictation? Or perhaps do you find none of these explanations any more compelling than the others, but simply trust that whichever combination lies behind these differences accords with God’s purposes?

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Phew! what a dissertation!...Through out the Bible, God has always given man choice. I would love nothing more than to be able to call you an eternal Bother but the choice is up to you!

Actually, Born Again 2004, I strive to prune back as much of my ego as I possibly can. For example, as I mentioned, I write for at least part of my living. But it wouldn’t pain me in the least if you were to point out to me I had made a typo as sloppy as, “Through out the Bible,” instead of, “Throughout the Bible.” And I apologize if something in my manner has provoked you to (perhaps unintentional?) condescensions like, “Whew!” and, “What a dissertation,” and, “if it suits your ego.” The very last thing I would ever want to be is a “Bother,” eternal or otherwise.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Actually, Born Again 2004, I strive to prune back as much of my ego as I possibly can. For example, as I mentioned, I write for at least part of my living. But it wouldn’t pain me in the least if you were to point out to me I had made a typo as sloppy as, “Through out the Bible,” instead of, “Throughout the Bible.” And I apologize if something in my manner has provoked you to (perhaps unintentional?) condescensions like, “Whew!” and, “What a dissertation,” and, “if it suits your ego.” The very last thing I would ever want to be is a “Bother,” eternal or otherwise.

Sure, God bless you any way. Who knows maybe I will meet you there! In the meantime, you pride and ego precede you!

 

[Born Again 2004]

I'm sure you agree that to every man there has been given a measure of faith

Sure just a bit of disagreement here, Jesus is still King!
The every man and faith part, I am not at all sure that is meant EVERY man, just believers.
You mention Romans 12 Verse, you do know the Romans 12 starts out with "Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters,,,,I doubt that has anything to do with secular man!

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Kirby

are you a sinner? can you stop sinning?


thanks

Wow, David M. You cut right to the chase, don’t you?

Yes. I am deeply flawed. And I try not to be. And I repent and strive to remedy those flaws as much as I can.

If my flaws are “sinful” in the sense they transgress against God’s order, I do not seek forgiveness for them from God. I know that might make me seem a bit monstrous to some Christians. For what it’s worth, I fully admit that slates me for the lake of fire if it turns out I am wrong about religion. In which case, I blame only myself.

I will say, even as an atheist, redemption through accepting Christ is a potent concept. We are fanatical and obsessive about condemning and punishing wrongdoing in our culture, and about taking personal responsibility for one’s transgressions. And rightly so. It’s among the first lessons we teach our children and it lasts our whole life long. We (in the US) still even have the death penalty (which, full disclosure, I find barbaric) because of this cultural feature. It’s, to me, almost inevitable that many people develop a hang up when it comes to blaming themselves for their human flaws. Often, I don’t think we are equipped with adequate mechanisms for forgiving ourselves when we have done wrong, despite this very powerful drive to judge ourselves. We’re not very good at letting ourselves “off the hook” when we blame ourselves for things we have been taught since infancy to avoid and prevent. BUT, we still have to function somehow. If I were driving a car and hit and killed someone by accident, I can easily see how it might destroy my life. But I have children and other responsibilities and it would be wrong to punish those who depend upon me for my inability to forgive myself and move on.

Coming to Christianity holds the promise of resolving this dilemma for people who believe. It describes many of the classic and best conversion stories: people who have been career criminals or suffered years of destructive substance abuse but who turn their lives around on finding Christ.

That all having been said, there are great many things which are considered “sin” by many Christians about which I emphatically disagree, and many Christian virtues to which I am intensely averse. I won’t go into them here unasked, but you can imagine they are many of the usual atheist complaints.

Here is one dilemma of the sort that prompted my original question and I would love to know your own thoughts as to its relative sinful nature:

If I had been present at the Crucifixion, ESPECIALLY knowing it was a horribly agonizing execution of an innocent person, I would have considered it my moral duty to do everything in my power to stop it.

In your opinion, were the people who permitted the Crucifixion guilty of sin in their failure to intercede? If someone HAD successfully prevented it, would they have been guilty of sin?

Thanks!

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Sure, God bless you any way. Who knows maybe I will meet you there! In the meantime, you pride and ego precede you!

It's swell to be judged by a self-professed sinner. Thanks.

 

[Born Again 2004]

It's swell to be judged by a self-professed sinner. Thanks.

Well, my friend...I guess if the shoe fits!
BTW, I have already said I loved you, do you love may?

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Dear @Kirby D. P.
...Do you think it will provide you as the world falls down around you, and that final breath closes in upon you, that you'll be comforted in the knowing that though you've done your best, but you're still going to die? Isn't that the real dilemma here. The choice between Death or Life?

Psalm 39:7

Hi, Christ4ever!

I agree with most of your description of faith/conviction. I would only add that, so far, I haven’t figured out a way (nor have I felt a pressing need) to add any additional feature to my ability to reason in order to adopt a faith in God. Also, on at least one occasion I definitely did NOT board a plane because, based on the evidence available to me, I had very little faith it would take me anywhere but a scorched ditch in the ground.

As for comfort from, or salvation in, the fact of physical death, I can recall several times when I was much younger and the thought of my own extermination gave me the heebie jeebies. But those moments have become ever fewer and farther between. Some few years ago, before I realized I was a “confirmed” atheist, I found I no longer sustained any particular anxiety over my own death. About the DYING, yes. As klutzy as I am, I expect whatever stupid thing I do that finally squelches me will be a real horror show. But, though there are countless people and aspects of I living I love more than my capacity to measure (my children being all aces on that score), and I am in no rush to surrender them, the notion of oblivion and the prospect that my consciousness will utterly and entirely cease at the moment of my death causes me no discomfort. That may sound like the fool’s courage of someone who has never been forced to confront his own mortality in any real sense. But, in the last few years, there were at least three times, all health-related, when my life was in serious question and I had plenty of time for reflection about the implications of that. I was quite upset at the notion of not seeing my children reach adulthood and the vast amount of things I had not yet taught them, and I was bummed at the thought of enjoying no more time with any other of my loved ones. But I didn’t find myself very concerned about anything… um… I guess “existential.”

As for the idea that my soul will survive my death and, unrepentant sinner as I am, I am prone to posthumous damnation (however you might want to define it) by God, here you are correct and my reason does get the better of me. There are countless different and, honestly, conflicting descriptions of God, Heaven, Hell and the rules by which all those work. I have a fairly clear (to me) sense of justice which I am constantly laboring to improve. IF souls exist and survive physical death, and IF God exists, he already knows why I question his existence. He also knows my sense of justice and how I came by it. He knows that, by my reckoning, I come by my doubt honestly and innocently. If he is truly just, by the standard he knows I have learned while living in his creation, he would see no justice in consigning me to damnation.

Of course, I could be wrong. That’s another necessary feature of my doubt.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Well, my friend...I guess if the shoe fits!
BTW, I have already said I loved you, do you love may?

I LIKE May. But I don't really LOVE it.

If you are asking if I love YOU, this is all so sudden. I mean, we haven't even gone on a second date yet. Is it okay if we agree I LIKE you for now? And we'll see how I feel depending on what type of restaurant you take me to? That would be ginchy.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

IF God exists, he already knows why I question his existence. He also knows my sense of justice and how I came by it. He knows that, by my reckoning, I come by my doubt honestly and innocently. If he is truly just, by the standard he knows I have learned while living in his creation, he would see no justice in consigning me to damnation.

Sorry Friend it simply is not as you stated.

You freely admit at your doubts and questioning.
That is what would purchase your ticket to spending eternity in hell.

God is a very Good and Just Judge.
He has told us how to be reconciled back to Him and spend eternity with Him.

Being the Just Judge that He is, He can not go against His Word which states, the only way to Him is through Christ.

Therefore your doubt and questioning in which keeps you from accepting that Christ is the only way to the Father is exactly what will be Justly Judged.

If I tell you the only way that you will keep your house is to come work for me and you decide to question this and doubt it would keep your house and the day comes to see if you keep your house.

Court is in.
You failed to come work for me.
You lose your house.
That's no bodies fault but yours.

I gave you a way to keep your house.
You had other ideas.
You failed the requirement to keep your house.

It's the same with God.
He has been making known unto you His Requirement unto being Reconciled back to Him.

You are trying to use your intellect and think this process through. By doing so you bring in things that only confuse the issue.

Time is ticking away. Tick, tock, tick tock your time is getting short.
Intellect and questioning is stealing the only time you have to make a quality choice to Accept God and His Word. Tick tock, tick tock and the pendulum makes its last swing in your life.......
There will be no excuse to save you.
Nothing you say will sway the judgment.

Bottom line that day will be
Do you have Christ Standing with you showing you had been reconciled back to God the Great Just Judge.

But you say I did not know or understand and He will show you every time He spoke unto you including within this forum.

Truth is All Around You
Don't let your questioning from within your intellect hide His truth.
Tick tock tick tock the pendulum is going to stop.

Blessings to you

 

[Dave M]

Kirby you sure seem to be well versed in the christian religion and I appreciate your friendly attitude

to answer your question "In your opinion, were the people who permitted the Crucifixion guilty of sin in their failure to intercede? If someone HAD successfully prevented it, would they have been guilty of sin?"

I will refer you to what Jesus said
Luke 23:34 And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.

 

[B-A-C]

People use the notion of "good people" and "bad people".
We might look at things like murder, stealing, lying and say those are bad things. We could even say the people who
do these things are bad people. Would you agree? These are some of the things we call sin. It seems everyone,
whether they are Christian or not... knows what sin is. In seems to be some inate part of us.

The thing is... everyone has sinned. Everyone (but Jesus). Even you have to recognize you done these things in your life
at some point if you're really honest. Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever had a lustful thought about a woman you weren't
married to? Have you ever stolen anything? (Even if it was just cookies from the cookie jar). Have you ever called anyone
a hateful name? Have you ever had a prejudice against someone? Have you ever simply called someone "stupid"?

Maybe you don't even consider those things "sin". But even so... every human has a concept of right and wrong.
I think just about all of us would say murder and stealing are bad things.

If God is Holy.... now that is a difficult concept for some to grasp. But try to imagine, a God that is so righteous, so Holy,
so pure, so perfect that sin cannot abide in His presence. Don't get me wrong, God isn't "afraid" of sin. I kind of view sin
like small little ice cubes floating through space. God is a huge star. A blindingly, blazingly hot sun millions of miles across.
Now when the ice cubes run into this sun, what happens? Is the sun afraid of the ice cubes? Is the sun evil because the
ice cubes cease to exist? No.... they are simply in an environment where they can no longer exist. I know I'm using
a lot of metaphors here, so I hope the meanings don't get lost here.

Now say you know this... even believe the ice cubes can't exist in close proximity to the Sun. But someone makes way
they don't have to. In fact it cost their only child being beaten, whipped, slapped, mocked, nailed and crucified. Probably
the most painful experience a human can go through. Why not a nuclear bomb? That would have quick and painless.
As we discussed earlier someone had to die and suffer for your sins. (if you don't acknowledge sin, can you at least acknowledge
some people do evil things).. truth be told... ALL people do evil things. You yourself are living proof of this. I don't mean anything
against you personally, I don't even know you. But I know people, I know humans, and I know my own human nature.

Let us say there is a God that made a way for us to exist in His presence, in eternity. No matter how much we sinned. He made
a way to cover us. To protect us from His blazing Holiness. In fact, (I know this is difficult to believe, but just imagine for a moment)
He made a way for you to live forever.... no pain, no suffering, no more death. What if there was a place like this? A God like this?

The only thing you initially have to do here... is believe in His Son. The one who died and suffered in your place.
The one who who paid the price of sin for you. I made a way for you. I gave up my son for you. He was beaten and whipped
and nailed to a cross so you didn't have to suffer what you deserve. Your sin is "attached" to you. Wherever you go... your sin goes. God doesn't hate you.... but even so, you can't exist in His presence with sin attached to you.

... and now... you are rejecting Him. You are denying what He did for you. You are denying the price He paid for you.
You may even take it a little further and say.... He didn't do anything for me, I don't even recognize that I have done
anything evil... ever in my life... not even once. I never lied, I never stole anything, I have never done anything evil
in my entire life. But I think if you are honest with yourself... you know you have done some of these things. Probably more
than once. Welcome to the club.. so have I. I'm not judging you. I'm offering you a way out.

Some of the evil we do.. isn't always to other people... it's to ourselves. We become addicted to alcohol, to drugs,
to food, and even to to sex. It's a proven fact these things are not good for you, tobacco and alcohol will eventually kill you.
To much food and sugar will also kill you. Long term marijuana use affects motor skills and memory.

But the point is... we are evil, we have done evil. We know it. You know it.
There is a price to pay for this. But someone else paid a very steep price for you so that you don't have to suffer.
But you choose to reject it. You don't believe it... you think it's a myth. It doesn't really apply to me.
Now you face God's wrath. I gave you a way out. It cost me the thing I love the most (my Son) and you are rejecting it.

Tell me... why shouldn't I punish you again? Why do you not deserve my wrath again? I don't know if you have any children
bu what if you did. What if your only child paid a price for someone else to not have to die, to not have to suffer, and that
person just spit on it.. and they said that's nice. But I don't want it, and I don't need it.

 

[KingJ]

For instance: Is it at all possible that God can have saved without the agency of Jesus, the Crucifiction and the Resurrection? Take care before you hasten to answer. Bear in mind, anyone who insists God HAD to save through Jesus is ascribing constraints to his power and, hence, describing him as something less than omnipotent. I am not saying that Jesus was not resurrected and I am not saying that that resurrection does not save. I am saying, if God is omnipotent, then it is within his power to do so through metaphor just as easily as an agonizing Roman state execution.

As BAC has said, only Jesus can re-unite mankind with God.

When God decided to create mankind. He knew they would need a means to be reconciled with Him. So, Jesus was planned before the foundations of the earth 1 Pet 1:20.

God is omnipotent but He is also other truths. We can't keep to this bubble thinking of ''God is omnipotent''. He can do anything, why doesn't He.

God is also good. He is as good as He is great. He limits His omnipotence to uphold who He is. He will not show preference to any human. If one human must go through Jesus, every human must. Just as with Adam and Eve. We can say that if Adam and Eve were tested by the devil / evil, every human will be tested. One of the reasons for bringing the devil back to earth after the millennium Rev 20:7.