Does mankind really have free will?

[Sue D.]

King J. -- we have continually disagreed on this topic. God, Himself, is omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent.

Now -- are you referring to His life -- God incarnate -- when Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was here on earth?

Seems you are Still trying to put God on Our level.

And it's True -- God is Not a 'respecter' of persons. Everyone Has sinned -- Everyone Can come to Christ --their personal Savior. Jews and Gentiles -- we are all equal in God's eyes. And in God's eyes -- sin is sin. We categorize it. He doesn't.

God Is Sovereign -- His Will stands. WHY are you So determined to tell everyone that He, God limits His omniscience. From a Human stand point, just because someone Can do something doesn't mean he will. That only applies to human beings.

The question of Why God creates people knowing that they will end up in lake of fire and brimstone. You Could just ask Him. Seriously.

God has Also told us to reach out To Everyone with the Gospel unto salvation. The point being that We don't know who will or who won't -- we are simply to obey and share. The rest is in God's hands.

 

[Dovegiven]

How important is the notion of free will and what does it even mean if I cannot exercise it because of handicaps that I have been born with? For instance no one on earth asked to be born white in a prosperous developed country like USA, UK, Europe etc or black in a impoverished developing country like Africa or to be born clever, backward, rich, poor, strong, weak, male, female etc - well you get the drift. Kids have less free will than their parents and so on.

Therefore our free will is limited by our age, race, gender, mental capacity, financial ability, geographical placement, and historical location to do what we want with our free will. Our genes passed down from parents and our social environment also restricts what choices are available for us to make. As a girl if you are blond and beautiful you have more choices than of you were not - same for men as well. So we do not have as much free will as we would like to think.

Let’s consider a scripture ( one of many) from the Bible that completely negates the notion of free will. Maybe someone can explain on this forum why in this instant the concept of free will takes a massive hit.

Isaiah 29:10: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day.” Did God intervene here in their free will?

What about evil things that happen on earth and there is no seemingly loving, caring and kind supernatural intervention because human free will of the rapist, murderer, killer is of more importance than intervention from above.
It does absolutely no good at all to have free will and not also have the ability to exercise it. Most women do not have the upper body strength needed to stop a would-be attacker, while some people don’t have the rational capacity needed to spot a con-artist. I could not be a world-class athlete even if I wanted to, for instance. My genes have prevented me from beating Usain Bolt in race. If a lion were chasing both of us I would be eaten before him. Is that fair?

Nope - we do not have as much free will as people think. And what is even worse is that it would seem that the free will of Hitler and Saddam types that are evil and infringe upon the free will of the helpless are allowed to get away with their dastardly deeds. Why does the free will of the evil trump the free will of the good and innocent? What is even stranger in the free will debate is that we have Biblical stories where God actually does intervene to stop someone's free-will choice or to even divinely influence their own will! What am i missing? Today we could really use Gods supernatural, unlimited power and help in times of need.

Adam was apparently not handicapped when told not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, lest he die. Why might that not be possibly observed by a man in a wheelchair unable to pick or handle the fruit? Would he not have to chew and swallow if it were offered, knowing it was forbidden? If it was supplied by food tube or intraveneously, would that have been his will, or that of another? Responsibility is a major factor among parents, caregivers, even with God.

 

[KingJ]

King J. -- we have continually disagreed on this topic. God, Himself, is omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent.

That is because you take a Calvinistic stance on His omniscience. Many Christians believe He limits His omniscience to uphold who He is.

And it's True -- God is Not a 'respecter' of persons.

How do you believe this? You said in your post He is omniscient and knows who from birth will be in hell.

God Is Sovereign -- His Will stands. WHY are you So determined to tell everyone that He, God limits His omniscience.

Why are you so determined to define God of the universe's will with ''one'' word?

God is as good as He is great. God is a fire burning with righteousness and holiness. He does NOT touch partiality as partiality is wicked.

The question of Why God creates people knowing that they will end up in lake of fire and brimstone. You Could just ask Him. Seriously.

We don't need to. We just need to read all of scripture to grasp He is truly impartial and limits His omniscience. Then leave it at that. Not add to it. We must learn to accept where the evidence points. Not make assumptions of God.

God has Also told us to reach out To Everyone with the Gospel unto salvation. The point being that We don't know who will or who won't -- we are simply to obey and share. The rest is in God's hands.

We don't just obey and share. We represent God. We are His ambassadors. We need to be convinced He is good. Once we are, we help others grasp it too.

You told me in another post to grasp the 'rest' of scripture. I urge you to do the same on this topic. There are many examples where God is ''surprised''. Why? Why did God not just create us in heaven? Is earth and Jesus dying on the cross all just evidence of ''God going through the motions''? The evidence points to limited omniscience. To a truly good God.

 

[KingJ]

From a Human stand point, just because someone Can do something doesn't mean he will. That only applies to human beings.

Please understand that God allows evil, something He utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly utterly hates to take place!

IE He limits His omnipotence to allow for true free will. Likewise to allow for true free will He limits His omniscience.

Anyone insinuating otherwise is saying the cross was just evidence of '''God going through the motions''' for us. Is that not disrespectful to God, Jesus, the cross?

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

God Is Sovereign --

You do realize that this is a modern day add into scripture. Its not in the old writings.

Its used so much to excuse things off on God and not taking responsibility for them.

Blessings

 

[Dovegiven]

You do realize that this is a modern day add into scripture. Its not in the old writings.

Its used so much to excuse things off on God and not taking responsibility for them.

Blessings

I agree with that!

I also believe this lost and dying world responds to the old fashioned biblical "hell fire and damnation" sermons like Jesus preached through parables and direct speech. All "God is good" ear tickling is not Jesus' style, nor mine, nor the great evangelists of the past three centuries.

 

[Sue D.]

And WHY would the sovereignty of God Be questioned. Simply means He's in charge. He's The creator and in charge of his creation.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

And WHY would the sovereignty of God Be questioned. Simply means He's in charge. He's The creator and in charge of his creation.

Its a modern day word created by man and used to excuse things off as we don't know why but But God in His sovereignty allowed it for a reason.

It puts everything on God and keeps people from stopping satan.

Ask your self why it was not in His Word from the beginning?

 

[Quantrill]

Quantrill,
re: "God, on the other hand has free will. Nothing comes to Him that is not already known to Him."

Does that include knowing before He creates a person whether or not He will eventually be casting the person into the lake of fire?

Of course. But, understand, no one else is created as Adam was, or as Eve was. Everyone else are products of the procreation of man and woman and are the result of different seeds being produced. In other words everyone else is the product of a seed. And the nature of that seed produces the individual.

Quantrill

 

[Dovegiven]

And WHY would the sovereignty of God Be questioned. Simply means He's in charge. He's The creator and in charge of his creation.

While of course God could have existed as a sovereign King all along with total control, keeping His creation good, with zero loss, maintaining Heaven on earth for all creatures, preventing disasters, etc., we know He chose not to do that. His will about that was expressed when He gave people dominion, along with the empowerment necessary by being made in the image and likeness of God. Because God's Creation CEOs failed the job they had to be fired and sent out.
Genesis 3:22-24 (KJV)
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

So why didn't God just take control back, being responsible for everything that happens on earth? Sin and death, separation from God, had entered in by choice of man, not of God's. Creation was then imperfect, not at all like Heaven on earth, and instead of all mankind fellowshipping with God, that reduced to individual people rarely choosing to live righteously and pleasing God.

Letting Satan reign over sin and death further disclosed that God was not sovereign by choice, and won't take that up until Jesus returns for a thousand years of corrections. But even then Satan and the fallen angels will be loosed for one more round of terror at the end. In the New Earth God will create again, but without the father of lies corrupting. Will God then take on sovereignty, making every decision, being responsible for every thought or action in the universe? I don't think so. He prefers friendship with a servant's heart.

 

[B-A-C]

While of course God could have existed as a sovereign King all along with total control, keeping His creation good, with zero loss, maintaining Heaven on earth for all creatures, preventing disasters, etc., we know He chose not to do that. His will about that was expressed when He gave people dominion, along with the empowerment necessary by being made in the image and likeness of God. Because God's Creation CEOs failed the job they had to be fired and sent out.

Exactly!! Every time we sin, we show we have free will. It certainly isn't God who makes us sin.

When Adam and Eve disobeyed God in the garden 100% of the human race (two people) was in rebellion against God.
Did God quit being God during this time? ( I hate it when He does that ) No... of course not. God is always God no matter what we do.
We humans are so small. The earth is just a speck of dust in the universe. We think that anything we do affects who God is..... really?

 

[Dovegiven]

Of course. But, understand, no one else is created as Adam was, or as Eve was. Everyone else are products of the procreation of man and woman and are the result of different seeds being produced. In other words everyone else is the product of a seed. And the nature of that seed produces the individual.

Quantrill

Yet, each shares the same DNA as Adam and Eve, minus losses by mutations in each generation.

The fact the gospel of grace was established before the foundations of the world demonstrates God knew man would sin. Regardless, He made it possible for a man to repent, to follow Jesus, and be writtin in the book of life instead of following Satan to Hell and then being cast into the lake of fire. God guarantees our choice with an everlasting warranty. He is Just in it all by the Father calling all to Jesus. If declining the invitation that decision is all on the human, not God whose choice in the matter is that all be saved. But we know God is not seeing His will done, a reason we all ought to pray more that it is done on earth as it is in Heaven.

 

[Sue D.]

While of course God could have existed as a sovereign King all along with total control, keeping His creation good, with zero loss, maintaining Heaven on earth for all creatures, preventing disasters, etc., we know He chose not to do that. His will about that was expressed when He gave people dominion, along with the empowerment necessary by being made in the image and likeness of God. Because God's Creation CEOs failed the job they had to be fired and sent out.
Genesis 3:22-24 (KJV)
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

So why didn't God just take control back, being responsible for everything that happens on earth? Sin and death, separation from God, had entered in by choice of man, not of God's. Creation was then imperfect, not at all like Heaven on earth, and instead of all mankind fellowshipping with God, that reduced to individual people rarely choosing to live righteously and pleasing God.

Letting Satan reign over sin and death further disclosed that God was not sovereign by choice, and won't take that up until Jesus returns for a thousand years of corrections. But even then Satan and the fallen angels will be loosed for one more round of terror at the end. In the New Earth God will create again, but without the father of lies corrupting. Will God then take on sovereignty, making every decision, being responsible for every thought or action in the universe? I don't think so. He prefers friendship with a servant's heart.

God has Not lost His sovereighty -- He acts according to His time-table --- not ours.

God Allows -- so that we can learn from Him - we have choices to make. We are allowed to make mistakes and learn from them.

God's sovereignty does Not take away our ability to make choices. His Plan Will take place. We need to remember that it's His plan , Not ours.

 

[Quantrill]

Yet, each shares the same DNA as Adam and Eve, minus losses by mutations in each generation.

The fact the gospel of grace was established before the foundations of the world demonstrates God knew man would sin. Regardless, He made it possible for a man to repent, to follow Jesus, and be writtin in the book of life instead of following Satan to Hell and then being cast into the lake of fire. God guarantees our choice with an everlasting warranty. He is Just in it all by the Father calling all to Jesus. If declining the invitation that decision is all on the human, not God whose choice in the matter is that all be saved. But we know God is not seeing His will done, a reason we all ought to pray more that it is done on earth as it is in Heaven.

All are born of Adam. That doesn't mean all are born of God. Two seeds are in play. Those of God and those of satan.

Quantrill

 

[Sue D.]

Well -- after the flood destroyed everything Except Noah and his family -- Then everyone came from That family. Well -- everyone is either born-again or Not born-again.

 

[Quantrill]

Well -- after the flood destroyed everything Except Noah and his family -- Then everyone came from That family. Well -- everyone is either born-again or Not born-again.

The flood didn't destroy the seed of the serpent that will continue until the end. So, you always have those two seeds in play.

Quantrill

 

[Dovegiven]

God has Not lost His sovereighty -- He acts according to His time-table --- not ours.

God Allows -- so that we can learn from Him - we have choices to make. We are allowed to make mistakes and learn from them.

God's sovereignty does Not take away our ability to make choices. His Plan Will take place. We need to remember that it's His plan , Not ours.

Agreed all along. God never "loses". True "soverenty" includes the lawful right of a sovereign ruler to allow subjects to choose whom they will deliberately serve. Yet hell is filled with rebels who will suffer mightily and eternally for not obeying THE sovereign ruler.

 

[Dovegiven]

All are born of Adam. That doesn't mean all are born of God. Two seeds are in play. Those of God and those of satan.

Quantrill

Yet God is able to provide the only eternally beneficial way, through Jesus, for the"bad seed" to repent and enter into His good seed family of Jesus unto Father God. There remained not just one seed in the beginning, all humans begin born of the seed of Adam. Every generation afterward. One SEED Jesus is added, though was from before the beginning. All who are of Satan are of the family of Satan, a third family choice. One can be simply of Adam, a lost gentile, or of the family of the Jews, or preferably of the familiy of God by way of Jesus.

 

[Dovegiven]

Well -- after the flood destroyed everything Except Noah and his family -- Then everyone came from That family. Well -- everyone is either born-again or Not born-again.

Well -- after the flood destroyed everything Except Noah and his family -- Then everyone came from That family. Well -- everyone is either born-again or Not born-again.

The flood destroyed air breathers not habored in the ark, not fish and other marine animals that could survive a marine environment. The flood didn't involved spirit beings.

 

[Sue D.]

Dovegiven -- And why would the spirit world be included in the world-wide flood. You said the flood didn't involve spirit beings. Why would it have? Spirit beings are the angelic world or the demonic world. Invisible entities. The People had become evil in all their ways.