Does mankind really have free will?

[Christ4Ever]

Hello Victor,

How important is the notion of free will and what does it even mean if I cannot exercise it because of handicaps that I have been born with? For instance no one on earth asked to be born white in a prosperous developed country like USA, UK, Europe etc or black in a impoverished developing country like Africa or to be born clever, backward, rich, poor, strong, weak, male, female etc - well you get the drift. Kids have less free will than their parents and so on.

Funny really, I mean the way you have chosen to work off this premise of Free Will. Reminds me of a boy who is suing his parents, who happen to be lawyers! Suing because they did not have his consent in giving birth to him! Fits in with the logic you are using, but isn't a bit unreasonable thought process to begin with? You have yet to define what Free Will is. To allow that the nexus of free will requires the existence of god to exist. Clearly you won't be one to believe in Free Will. Though it might be a reason to believe in Jesus. Surely He was able to give Himself life, live, give it up by choice, and then took it up again. So, Jesus is God. While the rest of humanity is not.

However, I'm curious on where you're leading with this

As a girl if you are blond and beautiful you have more choices than of you were not - same for men as well.

So, you believe free will is based upon pre-determined conditions a subject finds themselves in? Still, blond & beautiful even depends on the culture, and may not bode so well in more than one of them! Too many irregular factors to tie positive benefits, when you can easily do a 180 by tossing in culture, etc. Unless of course you're biased to what is considered beneficial. I mean I've seen children playing bare footed in the dirt, laughing and having a good old time, while a neatly dressed child in play with others in a fine trimmed yard is not.

So, basing Free Will on conditions that are malleable by God, and not by man, can't be considered or given a thumbs up or down.

Isaiah 29:10: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that should not hear, down to this very day.” Did God intervene here in their free will?

You still haven't defined Free Will. However, Free Will is great, but in respect to what? As I stated before, Free Will, or some thoughts on what Free Will must mean, clearly is flawed, because evidently it has limitations. However, this doesn't mean that Free Will doesn't exist, just that it's definition can be different in the areas that are truly important. So, it really depends on who you are talking to.

Like you have Free Will to choose to use Scripture that references to God, even though you don't believe in that same said God. Your existent Free Will in action

What about evil things that happen on earth and there is no seemingly loving, caring and kind supernatural intervention because human free will of the rapist, murderer, killer is of more importance than intervention from above.
It does absolutely no good at all to have free will and not also have the ability to exercise it. Most women do not have the upper body strength needed to stop a would-be attacker, while some people don’t have the rational capacity needed to spot a con-artist. I could not be a world-class athlete even if I wanted to, for instance. My genes have prevented me from beating Usain Bolt in race. If a lion were chasing both of us I would be eaten before him. Is that fair?

Very interesting. You have yet to define Free Will, and toss in concepts such as evil, love, caring, even if you are doing so by the mentioning of supernatural intervention, which are concepts that are really only defined by believing in the supernatural, and not natural world. Not everyone thought that putting people in ovens was an evil thing to do. Natural selection would allow this, and not define it as evil or good. Just another day in the natural world.

Having been in the Military and working in Corrections. The idea that "upper body strength" is necessary to stop a would-be-attacker, is really based on no more then just that one characteristic of the female anatomy and is clearly false one. As far as being a "world-class athlete"....sure you could. Just not in the area of your choosing. Just like Usain Bolt, as fast as he is, probably would not show the same level of competence as a power lifting. You know that badminton has been considered for the Olympics? Maybe, eating hot dogs might be your area of World Class Athlete? I'd give it a try myself, but they'd have to be Hebrew Nationals or I won't be competing.

As far as a race from a lion and the conditions you set are just you two....well, like they say...always pick someone who is slower than you! Maybe, like me! Then I could pray, and if God wills it. I just might have some help keeping the lions mouth shut.

Nope - we do not have as much free will as people think. And what is even worse is that it would seem that the free will of Hitler and Saddam types that are evil and infringe upon the free will of the helpless are allowed to get away with their dastardly deeds. Why does the free will of the evil trump the free will of the good and innocent? What is even stranger in the free will debate is that we have Biblical stories where God actually does intervene to stop someone's free-will choice or to even divinely influence their own will! What am i missing? Today we could really use Gods supernatural, unlimited power and help in times of need.

I agree with your opening comment here. However, we do have Free Will in the decision that can affect our eternal existence. Of course, your Free Will would have to allow you to trust that the faith that you do have is sufficient to believe in God. So, far you've used your faith to not believe. What's stopping you from believing?

Oh, and Free Will is not corporate, but individual. Can't blame others for the choices one makes, especially as it pertains to God. One chooses to have faith in either an accident of nature, or divine intervention. What you use to come to this decision is really the crux of the matter and what truly defines that elusive and as yet undefined "Free Will".

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
Nick
<><

P.S. The mother of the boy who is suing her and her husband has stated. If we had a way of asking, we'd have done so.

 

[Dovegiven]

Dovegiven -- And why would the spirit world be included in the world-wide flood. You said the flood didn't involve spirit beings. Why would it have? Spirit beings are the angelic world or the demonic world. Invisible entities. The People had become evil in all their ways.

I'll answer with a question. Do spirits require air? Can a man float through a year long flood?

 

[Sue D.]

Dovegiven --- A spirit is a spirit -- they don't breathe -- so no they wouldn't require air. But you're suggesting that a human being could possibly float through that world wide flood and survive it? Well -- given the description of what happened To the world -- that's how the grand canyon was formed and how we have the oceans that exist. And the many animal fossils resulting from that flood.

Consider for a moment what happens when we have flood conditions Now. There's presently lots of flooding in Nebraska and Iowa -- several states. There have been 3 known deaths. People Die when they try to drive through barackaded areas. No one can back-float for 150 days. A person gets sleepy and they go under water and drown. People who've experienced ship wreck out in the ocean. Either the elements get them / cold / heat. Or thirst / starvation.

So are you saying that when the people would have died physically that their spirits would have survived and live on? Well -- yes, everyone who lives has a soul that spends eternity somewhere. God's Word says that He destroyed All mankind and no animals outside the ark survived. The people were Evil in all their thoughts / deeds , in everyway they were evil. So where did / will their souls end up?! And, yes, that was Way before the cross. One view is that when Jesus Christ died on the cross , He went to Abraham's bossom -- shared the Gospel unto salvation One More Time to those in Hades --the 'bad' side. So Those people Did have a chance to be resurrected back up with Jesus Christ when He rose from the dead. He went to the Paradise side and took Them up with Him. So --the pre-flood people Did have a chance to accept --but didn't They also have the prophets to warn them?

But Since the cross -- when a believer dies - he/ she is immediately with Jesus Christ in heaven. The dead who died Without Christ are in Hades --in torment -- waiting for the Final judgement. And then They Too, will be thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone. They won't have received a glorified body like believers do.

You have gotten me to thinking more though.

Now -- someone on forum believes in spirit children of God even before Adam and Eve. Is That what you're referring to? Just curious.

Anyway -- in my part of the world - it's getting late. So I'm going to bed.

 

[KingJ]

who will suffer mightily and eternally for not obeying

I am so glad some people are not judges. Perhaps in heaven you will see clearer and better grasp fitting and appropriate punishments.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Can a man float through a year long flood?

If you have an Ark you can

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Everyone in here is exercising their free will.

If there was no free will then there would be no lost and only obedient puppets with God being the Master Puppeteer!!

Now that there post comes with strings attached!!

~

 

[Quantrill]

Yet God is able to provide the only eternally beneficial way, through Jesus, for the"bad seed" to repent and enter into His good seed family of Jesus unto Father God. There remained not just one seed in the beginning, all humans begin born of the seed of Adam. Every generation afterward. One SEED Jesus is added, though was from before the beginning. All who are of Satan are of the family of Satan, a third family choice. One can be simply of Adam, a lost gentile, or of the family of the Jews, or preferably of the familiy of God by way of Jesus.

The seed points to the nature of a thing. It speaks to the origin of a thing. It doesn't change. All born of Adam are only of one of two seeds. The believers origin is from above. (John 3:3). Just as Christ's is. When arguing with the Pharisees He said in (John 8:23) "...Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world." And later He told them in (John 8:47), "He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God."

In (John 8:44) Christ was very plain. "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. "

Quantrill

 

[Sue D.]

If you have an Ark you can

I think it was more a question about those who weren't in the Ark. Re: Dovegiven's post #63 -- not sure what he/she was referring to. Maybe about where their spirits would end up. Since they were destroyed because of their extreme evilness, chances their spirits ended up in hell awaiting for judgement. -- but I was already going through That in #64.

 

[Sue D.]

I am so glad some people are not judges. Perhaps in heaven you will see clearer and better grasp fitting and appropriate punishments.

Eternal punishment is in God's hands. And in His Word, he tells us specifically what and where and why. His Word tells us that born-again believers will be in the New Jerusalem for all eternity. Non born-again believers will end up in lake of fire and brimstone for that same amount of time. Just because some of us Don't Like those options, doesn't nullify them.

I've had opportunity to communicate with some atheists and I comment to them that just because they don't like or believe in the concept of God -- does Not cause Him to not exist or disappear.
Some atheists seem to think that 'god / God' is an entity that each person develops as they see fit. That if a person Wants eternity to exist then fine. Other people Don't want it to exist, so it won't for them. But -- God's Word says it Does for Everyone.

Guess what I'm saying is that we each have choices to make every day - every hour -- do our choices glorify God or not. No one will Loose their personal Salvation - but there Are crowns a person will be receiving regarding their actions during their Christian lives. And we Should want to please God in our everyday activities. That's what a Christian life Should look like.

It's been said that once we get to heaven, we'll probably be surprised at who we see or don't see. But, I have a feeling that once we Do get there that our attention will be focused on Jesus Christ / God and those who Are there.

 

[KingJ]

Eternal punishment is in God's hands. And in His Word, he tells us specifically what and where and why. His Word tells us that born-again believers will be in the New Jerusalem for all eternity. Non born-again believers will end up in lake of fire and brimstone for that same amount of time. Just because some of us Don't Like those options, doesn't nullify them.

I in ''no'' way want to nullify or ignore that scripture. I just pray for the day you not speak of hell based on that ''one'' scripture. Because when you do this you are causing people to judge God based on a cherry picked scripture. As you do with ''omniscience''.

Whether you believe we can or cannot judge God is irrelevant to the fact that the unsaved ''do''. I did, before I was saved.

We, as Christians are charged with '''one''' job. Properly represent God to the unsaved. You do not do this when you cherry pick '''lake of fire and brimstone'''.

I will leave the reader with this thought. God speaks from His perspective. When Adam and Even were removed from the garden of Eden, He told Adam ''you will sweat and labor'', He told Eve ''you will have unbearable pain in childbirth''. He told them both '''you are entering death, as the punishment for sin is death'''. In comparison to Eden, these were truths. Terrible truths. In Eden, they didn't have pain or need to labor. They were also not dead. What God did not tell them, perhaps because they should have ''''known''' is that a good God is a good God. In their death they had pleasantries like children, chocolates, surfing on beautiful beaches, stargazing, sports, companionship with others, animals, tasty food, chillie, robots technology, diamonds, Mercedes, Ferrari's etc etc.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

He told them both '''you are entering death, as the punishment for sin is death'''. In comparison to Eden, these were truths. Terrible truths. In Eden, they didn't have pain or need to labor. They were also not dead.

They Died Spiritually that day.
The Glory of God was Removed from them.
Blessings

 

[Dovegiven]

Dovegiven --- A spirit is a spirit -- they don't breathe -- so no they wouldn't require air. But you're suggesting that a human being could possibly float through that world wide flood and survive it? Well -- given the description of what happened To the world -- that's how the grand canyon was formed and how we have the oceans that exist. And the many animal fossils resulting from that flood........
Anyway -- in my part of the world - it's getting late. So I'm going to bed. :smile:

Maybe you needed to go to bed an hour earlier since the time change I asked two simple questions with obvious answers, not at all suggesting or speculating anything. The answers to them are both "NO". The spirits of God travel to and from Heaven, which obviously isn't on earth, and demons can inhabit bodies. None could have tread water a year, not even a beaver or a seal.

 

[Dovegiven]

If you have an Ark you can

There was one man listening to God, building one ark, with 7 following him in. The rest exercised their free will to party on, and God didn't interfere, and was the One who closed the door on them. The result was the whole world of air breathing creation perishing. It stands as a type of judgment to come.
Matthew 7:14 (KJV)
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[Sue D.]

Maybe you needed to go to bed an hour earlier since the time change I asked two simple questions with obvious answers, not at all suggesting or speculating anything. The answers to them are both "NO". The spirits of God travel to and from Heaven, which obviously isn't on earth, and demons can inhabit bodies. None could have tread water a year, not even a beaver or a seal.

The time changed last week.

I'll answer with a question. Do spirits require air? Can a man float through a year long flood?

Scripture says that in Job -- that the angels were traveling to and from earth and satan was there amongst them.

There were male angels in Sodom and Gommorah - well -- no female angels exist -- so obviously they were male. And there are guardian angels. The spirit world is amongst us.

Since they are going to and from Heaven. Where are they going if not to earth?

 

[Sue D.]

I in ''no'' way want to nullify or ignore that scripture. I just pray for the day you not speak of hell based on that ''one'' scripture. Because when you do this you are causing people to judge God based on a cherry picked scripture. As you do with ''omniscience''.

Whether you believe we can or cannot judge God is irrelevant to the fact that the unsaved ''do''. I did, before I was saved.

We, as Christians are charged with '''one''' job. Properly represent God to the unsaved. You do not do this when you cherry pick '''lake of fire and brimstone'''.

I will leave the reader with this thought. God speaks from His perspective. When Adam and Even were removed from the garden of Eden, He told Adam ''you will sweat and labor'', He told Eve ''you will have unbearable pain in childbirth''. He told them both '''you are entering death, as the punishment for sin is death'''. In comparison to Eden, these were truths. Terrible truths. In Eden, they didn't have pain or need to labor. They were also not dead. What God did not tell them, perhaps because they should have ''''known''' is that a good God is a good God. In their death they had pleasantries like children, chocolates, surfing on beautiful beaches, stargazing, sports, companionship with others, animals, tasty food, chillie, robots technology, diamonds, Mercedes, Ferrari's etc etc.

There's Nothing 'cherry picked' about that Chapter in Revelation that tells about that final lake of fire and brimstone.

omniscience = all - knowing -- no getting around it.

 

[Victor Van Heerden]

Revelation that tells about that final lake of fire and brimstone.

Can't agree more. KingJ is letting his personal feelings get caught up in God's ways. Which are not our ways. There are much more than verses in Rev that teach about hell being the second death the lake of fire. Only God has omniscience. Not Satan. That is why God is God.

 

[KingJ]

Can't agree more. KingJ is letting his personal feelings get caught up in God's ways. Which are not our ways. There are much more than verses in Rev that teach about hell being the second death the lake of fire. Only God has omniscience. Not Satan. That is why God is God.

God limits His omniscience. We see it throughout scripture. You and Sue are cherry picking. We need to look at where the evidence points. Not conclude we grasp God entirely on a matter of partiality vs impartiality just because we grasp the dictionary definition of '''one'''' word that describes God.

Peter says in Acts 10:34 ''He grasps'' that God is no respecter of persons. IE It was a truth he never grasped prior.

If God is 100% omniscient and does not limit it (as scripture shows, the existence of earth and the cross), then how can He not be a respecter of persons if eternal hell exists?

Please take a proper stab at that question. Many here pretend it is not written. They quote lines above and beneath it. :smile:

 

[KingJ]

There's Nothing 'cherry picked' about that Chapter in Revelation that tells about that final lake of fire and brimstone.

Quote another verse then.

omniscience = all - knowing -- no getting around it.

Does God limit His omnipotence to allow for evil to take place? Omnipotence = all powerful -- no getting around it.

 

[Dovegiven]

God limits His omniscience. We see it throughout scripture. You and Sue cherry picking. We need to look at where the evidence points. Not conclude we grasp God entirely on a matter of partiality vs impartiality just because we grasp the dictionary definition of '''one'''' word that describes God.

Why might God put limits on His omniscience? He does that with His omnipresence, not allowing a man to see Him fully, due to His glory, which only Jesus has beheld.

 

[Dovegiven]

Quote another verse then.

Does God limit His omnipotence to allow for evil to take place? Omnipotence = all powerful -- no getting around it.

Genesis 9:8-11 (KJV)
8 And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,
9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
10 And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.
11 And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth.

I vote yes, He does limit His omnipotence. His grace makes that possible.