Even greater 'gifts' today.

[Rhema]

This is why I asked for first hand observations and experiences.

Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
(Matthew 12:38-39 KJV)

The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
(Matthew 16:1-4 KJV)

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
(Luke 16:31 KJV)

 

[Garee]

We don't save people, Garee, God does. God is our salvation. Jesus was talking about his followers and again, we don't have the power of salvation.

Rhema

Yes thanks for the reply. I would offer as messengers, apostles , he does move men to the the good works of their part of salivation, preach the word .He does give ears to those who hear the preaching as it is written. Again God's understanding that works in sons of God. Christians. Yoked with him we a partakers of his power.

In that way God is not adding new revelations .We have the complete word with no laws missing by which we could know him more intimately or adequately .

God who works in us does all things to His glory .

Is there greater good work in so much that could cause the increase sent by God as we hold out the gospel ? Or is it the greatest.?

It cannot be greater than power than the gospel . Peter preached it, God who cause the increase brought salvation to 3000 in the twinkling of the eye . I would think its the number not the work . I would think that God is not served by corrupted human hands in any way shape or form

 

[Garee]

Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
(Matthew 12:38-39 KJV)

The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
(Matthew 16:1-4 KJV)

And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
(Luke 16:31 KJV)

Yes seeking after signs as a means of wondering and not prophecy, the conclusion or end of the matter (Moses and the prophets) Against it the faithless Pharisees with Sadducees tried to turn Jesus into a circus seal .

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What "sign" shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

I think it is why when Jesus spoke with Nicodenmus one who did seek after signs that causes wondering marveling. informing him of the greatest possible Miracle (born again ) he immediately lovingly commanded him to marvel not.

Marveling /wondering is not exercising or working out faith as a labor of love.. It is identified more as day dreaming.

It would seem wondering after with all power of signs as lying wonder is on the increase .God is still sending a strong delusion to allow those who do not love prophecy to continue to believe the wondering lies .

We know God is no longer bring any new revelation .In that way it would be difficult to deceive the sons of God, Christians .Abide by the warning not to add sealed with 7 seals till the end of time .We have all the laws needed by which we could know our father in heaven seeking His will as our daily bread.


2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

 

[Hitch]

Yes seeking after signs as a means of wondering and not prophecy, the conclusion or end of the matter (Moses and the prophets) Against it the faithless Pharisees with Sadducees tried to turn Jesus into a circus seal .

John 6:30 They said therefore unto him, What "sign" shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

I think it is why when Jesus spoke with Nicodenmus one who did seek after signs that causes wondering marveling. informing him of the greatest possible Miracle (born again ) he immediately lovingly commanded him to marvel not.

Marveling /wondering is not exercising or working out faith as a labor of love.. It is identified more as day dreaming.

It would seem wondering after with all power of signs as lying wonder is on the increase .God is still sending a strong delusion to allow those who do not love prophecy to continue to believe the wondering lies .

We know God is no longer bring any new revelation .In that way it would be difficult to deceive the sons of God, Christians .Abide by the warning not to add sealed with 7 seals till the end of time .We have all the laws needed by which we could know our father in heaven seeking His will as our daily bread.


2 Thessalonians 2:9-11 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

I reckon part of the reason Jesus spoke this was to the the elders of Israel is because He had already performed so many 'signs&wonders' . The very things they tried to gain warrant for His death from.

 

[Rhema]

It cannot be greater than power than the gospel .

But didn't Jesus preach the gospel?

Didn't Jesus wield the power of the gospel?

Then the "greater things" can't be this "power of the gospel" (whatever you mean by that).

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater (μείζων, meizōn) than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.​

(John 14:12 KJV)​

You've interpreted "greater works" to mean "a greater number of works" than what Jesus did...

The Garee translation - "the works that I do shall he do also; and MORE than these shall he do;​

Were this to be the case, the Greek word μᾶλλον (mallon) would have been written instead of μείζων, meizōn). I don't find this interpretation of "greater number" or "quantity" to be credible. Not in any translation, nor in any lexicon.

Rhema
But I'm sure that nothing I say could convince you of anything, so ... have a nice day.

 

[Rhema]

He had already performed so many 'signs&wonders' . The very things they tried to gain warrant for His death from.

Hi Hitch,

Just what scripture says that they wanted to put him to death because of the signs and wonders that Jesus performed?

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Garee]

But didn't Jesus preach the gospel?

Didn't Jesus wield the power of the gospel?

Then the "greater things" can't be this "power of the gospel" (whatever you mean by that).

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater (μείζων, meizōn) than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.​

(John 14:12 KJV)​

You've interpreted "greater works" to mean "a greater number of works" than what Jesus did...

The Garee translation - "the works that I do shall he do also; and MORE than these shall he do;​

Were this to be the case, the Greek word μᾶλλον (mallon) would have been written instead of μείζων, meizōn). I don't find this interpretation of "greater number" or "quantity" to be credible. Not in any translation, nor in any lexicon.

Rhema
But I'm sure that nothing I say could convince you of anything, so ... have a nice day.

Thanks for the reply.

I would think its the Holy Spirit that does the convincing. He worked in Jesus the Son of man empowering him convincing Him to do the will of the unseen father . Jesus a brother in the lord (first born) like us had the the treasure of the fathers power working in him

.But Jesus would never say that power was of his corrupted dying earthen body. . . which would be blasphemy . On one occasion when a man bowed down in worship and inquired of spiritual unseen things . Jesus the Son of man refused to stand in the holy unseen place of faith and rather gave glory to God. Saying only one is the good teaching master as Lord of lords , God.

In that way no man can serve two teaching masters as one Lord . (1) . the corrupted flesh and blood or (2) the unseen Holy Spirit of God? Hopefully, I hope the later

I think the beautiful what I call parable below speaks of the treasure of a new born again heart.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and "not" of us.

We have a perfect example in the Son of man, Jesus . Not as I will father but as you wil the one with power . "let there be" and it was "very good ". Good , God's unseen signature or seal of his approval


Christ who does work in us to both reveal his good will and empower us to perform it .Some like Jesus did it with delight. . others like Jonas who bought a one way ticket to the sufferings of heel suffered .three days and nights Jonah was dragged, thrown over board, lived in darkness ,was vomited on dry land, kicked against the pricks (the law of God pricking his conscience) In the end he wanted to die knowing God was a God of his word and what he says comes to pas . A good lesson in Love to Jonah . Not as I willed but you the one with power. .

Philipians 2: 12-14 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out (not work to gain) your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Is there a greater work than participating in the work of Christ preaching the gospel ?

I think the greater was volume. The work of the Holy Spirit was somewhat limited when the Son of man was here. Many did glory in his corrupted flesh, many faithless disciples left in John 6 that is when when Jesus revealed to them his flesh, what the eyes see, does not profit but again it was the unseen power of the father that could alone profit .The demonstration needed to establish His government of peace .two working as one .The father being the greater or one with power working in mutual submissions with the Son of man Jesus. . . the lesser (not by my will.)

The propmised outward demonstration to the whole world of Isaiah 53.

 

[Rhema]

I would think its the Holy Spirit that does the convincing.

Indeed, the Holy Spirit has convinced me that your interpretation is not credible. The "greater" is not numerical in scope.

Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Is there a greater work than participating in the work of Christ preaching the gospel ?

Yes.

 

[Garee]

Yes.

Yes there is? What is it?

 

[Rhema]

Yes there is? What is it?

You tempt me.

Garee, I, like others, have learned that there is no benefit in discourse with you.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

Is there a greater work than participating in the work of Christ preaching the gospel ?

Yes.

Yes there is? What is it?

Would not the mere worship of God be greater?

Rhema

 

[Hitch]

Pointing out the obvious

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Twenty first century Pentecostalism follows the footsteps of twentieth century Pentecostalism falling ever farther short of this simple quote.

 

[Garee]

Would not the mere worship of God be greater?

Rhema

Hi thanks for the reply'

I would agree worshiping God by believing what he he says in regard the the greatest miracle . . warning us to marvel not .Marveling is wondering not coming to the end of faith, the salvation of ones new soul , Prophecy the power to rises to new life the power of a new soul

Wondering marveling will get a person no where . Jesus testified to the work of the father giving Jesus the prophet words (for it is written) to rebuke the father of lies, the father of lying signs as wonders, marvels , euphoric .


Mathew 4: 8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

 

[Rhema]

Pointing out the obvious

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Twenty first century Pentecostalism follows the footsteps of twentieth century Pentecostalism falling ever farther short of this simple quote.

Pointing out the obvious... the word "works" is italicized in the KJV because it isn't in the source texts.

 

[Rhema]

Wondering marveling will get a person no where .

Unfortunately, as do conversations with you.

Godspeed,
Rhema

 

[Waggles]

Pointing out the obvious... the word "works" is italicized in the KJV because it isn't in the source texts.

Thankyou for that.
Funny how one can read a verse without picking up the detail within - yes you are correct on this.
John 14:12 Amen, Amen, I say unto you, Who believeth unto me, the works that I do shall HE do also; and greater than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father. [NENT]
(YLT) 'Verily, verily, I say to you, he who is believing in me, the works that I do—that one also shall do, and greater than these he shall do, because I go on to my Father;

Yes Jesus did perform many wonderful miracles in his 3½ year ministry and promised that disciples would drink of living water and receive the promise of the Father with power.
The gospel of the NT is about miracles and the power of God and signs and wonders.
And this is Pentecostal faith and doctrine both in the beginning and in our times [the latter rain].
Throughout the Pentecostal Revivals of the early 1900s continuing through today millions of people have been blessed, converted, transformed, praying in tongues, healed and received the working of miracles.
Millions of testimonies to
Matthew 11:4 Jesus answered and said unto them, Go and show John again those things which ye do hear and see:
5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
6 And blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me.

 

[Br. Bear]

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: for the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
James 1:19-27

 

[Garee]

But didn't Jesus preach the gospel?

Didn't Jesus wield the power of the gospel?

Then the "greater things" can't be this "power of the gospel" (whatever you mean by that).

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater (μείζων, meizōn) than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.​

(John 14:12 KJV)​

You've interpreted "greater works" to mean "a greater number of works" than what Jesus did...

The Garee translation - "the works that I do shall he do also; and MORE than these shall he do;​

Were this to be the case, the Greek word μᾶλλον (mallon) would have been written instead of μείζων, meizōn). I don't find this interpretation of "greater number" or "quantity" to be credible. Not in any translation, nor in any lexicon.

Rhema
But I'm sure that nothing I say could convince you of anything, so ... have a nice day.

Yes Jesus like other apostles preached the gospel planting the seed and others watered it with the doctrine of of God .The power to wield was not of them they had no power of their own . In that way they were considered nothing .No credit goes to the courupted flesh or body of death

1 Corinthians 3:6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.


The greater is the number effected by the preaching . Jesus perhaps was used to bring 500 in the three years of his ministry Peter spoke once and 3000 were added the greater .

The greater cannot be the temporal healing either .

I would think it must be the number of the greatest. . salvation .

 

[Garee]

Unfortunately, as do conversations with you.

Godspeed,
Rhema

Will you provide me with some fortune ?

Why do you suppose he told Nicodenmus to marvel not at the greatest possible miracle ? Why did he call those who seek after signs and wonders an evil generation ? What did he mean by evil generation?