Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture

[Chad]

Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture
by Kent Crockett

Let me first say that our fellowship as Christians is not based upon the timing of the rapture, but upon the finished work of Jesus on the cross. Some have accused those who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture as "escapists," trying to avoid all trouble or persecution. On the contrary, the Church always has been and always will be persecuted as long as we are in the world, but this is not the same as the wrath of God poured out during the Tribulation. We believe the rapture occurs before the Tribulation because scriptures overwhelmingly support a pre-tribulation rapture, as opposed to the a-millennial, post-millennial, and post-tribulation theories.

The following is a look at 16 scriptural evidence that indicate the rapture will be Pre-Tribulation. ("Pre-tribulation" rapture means Jesus will gather those who believe in Him together in heaven before the Seven Year Tribulation starts.)

Evidence #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection

The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.
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Evidence #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection

This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.

Evidence #3: Two different pictures are painted

In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.

In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."

Evidence #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day

Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.

Evidence #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)

The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.

Evidence #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)

A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.

Evidence #7: The 24 elders have their crowns

After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.

Evidence #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)

The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.

Evidence #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)

Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.

Evidence #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment

When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41) says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.

Evidence #11: Both wicked and righteous both can't be taken first

First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.

Evidence #12: Jesus returns from the wedding

When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.

Evidence #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3)

Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.

Evidence #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way

In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Holy Spirit who lives within the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.

Evidence #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46)

If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.

Evidence #16: Who will populate the Millennium?

If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium.

Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture - BibleStudyPlanet.com

 

[Rog]

Yes, but you forget one important fact. What about Harlot Babylon?
There are almost 2 chapters devoted to Babylon.
She is that great city that reigns over the kings of the earth.

 

[MAJ52653]

Before we even hit any of the individual items, it must first be pointed out that the evidence for the pre-tribulation rapture is far from overwhelming. If it had been, surely someone would have noticed it before the pre-trib theory was invented in the 1830’s. No early church father, commentary or any other source mentions it before then. The post-trib rapture was the official point of view for the past 2,000 years, and is still the majority opinion throughout the world.

#1 Revelation 19:11-21 doesn’t mention a resurrection quite simply because it isn’t about the resurrection. The resurrections of the just and the unjust are covered in Revelation 20. Besides, if this is supposed to be the pre-trib rapture, why does this part of Revelation not take place until after the tribulation? Verses 19:19+20 specifically mention that this battle is fought against the beast and the false prophet. This is the event that ends the tribulation, it does not happen before it.

#2 Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn’t mention a resurrection. It doesn’t mention anything about a rapture either.

#3 Only those who believe in a pre-trib rapture divide the second coming from the rapture. For 2,000 years they have been taught as the same event.

#4 This is pure speculation. The Revelation 12 part has literally dozens of possible interpretations. None is a standard recognized by the church as a whole. There is nothing to connect it with verse 13:4. Not to be catty, but I think you mean 13:5.

#5+6 Both are pure speculation. Just because something could mean something, this is not proof that it must mean something. It could quite easily mean something else.

#7 Once again, it is only assumed that these 24 Elders are raptured saints. There is nothing in any reference to the 24 Elders in the Bible that shows that they are raptured saints.

#8 One of the fun things about Revelation, along with most of the books of the prophets, is that they are not written in strict chronological order. Some of the same plagues, for example, happen during the seals, the trumpets and the vials. Either the same plague happens multiple times or this is the same plague fitting in two or three ways. There are in fact several ways to set up the chronology of Revelation. This would only fit the pre-trib scenario if you first accept the particular time scheme for Revelation the author accepts. And again, Revelation 19 takes place after the tribulation in almost all time lines for Revelation. In fact, it is very hard to see how this can be taking place before the tribulation since the assembled armies of heaven are going off in chapter 19 to destroy the beast and his false prophet.

#9 As I pointed out in another posting, there is nothing assigning Revelation 3:10 to be for the whole church. It is addressed to the church in Philadelphia. And is better translated as “I will keep you through the time of trouble”. Which is why Jesus praises their endurance. Taking the verse totally out of context is not a good idea.

#10 A lot of logic flaws here. Jesus said in Matthew 22:30 that we will be like that angels in that we will not marry. No other power or ability of angels is mentioned. Jesus never said we would be like the angels in all respects. Assuming we will be like them in all ways is total speculation. In Matthew 13 the angels gather the wicked at the end of the age. Many of the evil so gathered at the end of the age would have to be resurrected.

#11 Try reading it. First Thessalonians 4:13-17 does not say the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. The wicked aren’t even mentioned. Matthew 13:30, 49 does not say the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. It says not to pull the weeds until the harvest. Then at the harvest, when the weeds can be more easily told from the wheat, you can separate the two, and gather the weeds for burning. This of course is a parable. Unlike a factual account, it is not necessary for every detail to be exact and perfectly fit. Only the main point you are trying to get across is important. For example in the parable of the sower and the seeds, we don’t care where the farm was located, what kind of seed grabbing birds were there, why the birds only took some seeds and not others, what kind of rocks or weeds there were, or where the road went. And most important of course, parables are not prophecies.

#12 There are things called metaphors and similes. Jesus says to be like servants waiting for their master to come back from a wedding. If an apple is like a tomato (both are red and round) it does not mean an apple is a tomato. When did you last eat spaghetti with apple sauce instead of tomato sauce? Just because in a parable, we are to be like a servant waiting for his master waiting to return from a wedding, that does not prove that Jesus has been at a wedding for the last 2,000 years.

#13 Uh, actually He will be bringing the home He is making for us to Earth. It is called New Jerusalem. See Revelation 21.

#14 Once again, it is only a speculation that this interpretation is the right one, and not several others.

#15 Obviously, they would only need to be separated if there was no pre-trib rapture. You are right about that one. Though that would be a point against the pre-trib rapture, not for it.

#16 What a lot of confusion. First the wicked dead are not raised until after the Millennium. See Rev 20:11-15. As to repopulating the Earth during the millennium, there are many theories. Such as the few tribulation survivors, children, nothing prevents God from creating new people, etc. Again, the church has never chosen just one possibility.

 

[Rog]

There seems to be 2 times where it talks about those being slain in tribulation are with Jesus.
The 1st is in the 5th seal, and the 2nd is Revelation 20:4

The first group of Martyrs were slain, but they had nothing to do with the beast or his image. The second group are those that were slain and did not take the mark, and live and reign with Jesus 1000 years.
So there appears to be 2 raptures that take place, and 2 times the saints are persecuted.

The first by Babylon(Revelation 17), the second by the dragon and the ten horns(Revelation 12:17, Revelation 13).

 

[Mouse]

Can it possibly happen at that same time?
Look at what Daniel 12:1-2 says:
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

 

[Rog]

Can it possibly happen at that same time?
Look at what Daniel 12:1-2 says:
"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."

Yes, thats the last trumpet.


1 Corinthians 15:51-52
51.Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
52.in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

It happens right before the last seven bowl or vial judgments.


Daniel 12:10-12
10."Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
11."And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12."Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

45 Days after the abomination of desolation, the rapture will take place.
Then the Lord unleashes his wrath.


Revelation 14:15-19
15.And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
16.So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
17.Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18.And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe."
19.So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

But!

This is not when the Lord comes as a thief in the night!

 

[baruch]

I personally don't believe in the pre-trib rapture theory. I can't find any scripture that clearly advocates a pre-trib rapture.
But, there is plenty of evidence that the church will go through the great tribulation, mainly, the Olivet discourse and Revelation.
Why would Jesus tell us about it, if we were all going to be "raptured" before it took place?
In 1900 years of church history, from Stephen to the present day, there have been millions of "Martyrs" What makes us so special, that we would be spared the trials that our brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus have, and are still suffering in many countries today?
The church in the west needs a wake up call before the freedom we enjoy to worship and witness openly is taken away,and we find ourselves unprepared to for persecution.

 

[DeaconBob3]

Before we even hit any of the individual items, it must first be pointed out that the evidence for the pre-tribulation rapture is far from overwhelming. If it had been, surely someone would have noticed it before the pre-trib theory was invented in the 1830’s. No early church father, commentary or any other source mentions it before then. The post-trib rapture was the official point of view for the past 2,000 years, and is still the majority opinion throughout the world.

Early Church Fathers do speak of a rapture of the church as early as 170 AD, 230 AD, 350 AD and on and on and on. There has been discussion and debate about when the rapture occurs for centuries. It is in writings of the early church Fathers. There was a consistent teaching about the rapture, that is true, but there has been a general nervous apprehension about the book of revelation from the dawn of the church.

I am glad that you are comfortable with your rapture beliefs.

I too am comfortable with mine.

We will both know when it happens and I hope to see you in the clouds with the Lord.

 

[Idelle]

I just resently was surfing the web and feel upon a site of a woman/man who claimed to have gotten the date of the Rapture (will not say the date unless given permission) from God himself i was a little skeptical so i looked it up and i found the scripture 1st Thessalonians ch 5 verses 1-3 saying we wouldn't know. Am i ok to believe that no one not even a christian will know the day of Rapture?

 

[Janette]

Veritas, veritas, que est veritas?

I will try to handle this delicately because this should be a discussion rather than a debate.

The first thing we need to do is separate "tribulation" in general from "The Great Tribulation" -- Christians face tribulation right now. It would be just plain silly to say we don't face trials, persecutions, and even martyrdom in some parts of the world. But the supernatural horrors of the 7 years...that's not for us.

Before we even hit any of the individual items, it must first be pointed out that the evidence for the pre-tribulation rapture is far from overwhelming. If it had been, surely someone would have noticed it before the pre-trib theory was invented in the 1830’s. No early church father, commentary or any other source mentions it before then. The post-trib rapture was the official point of view for the past 2,000 years, and is still the majority opinion throughout the world.

Wow that's quite a bold statement there, and I've heard it more than once from several apparently learned folk (which baffles me).

I'm certain that you are not intentionally trying to mislead anyone, but you are mistaken. The Rapture was taught prior to Darby and the 1830's and it was taught or at least understood by several prominant Early Church fathers.

Many people say that the word rapture does not appear anywhere in the Bible. That is partially correct (there are now a few translations that use it now but that's a new thing). "Rapture", when used in eschatological terms, is an English word used in place of the Latin word raeptius; taken from the Vulgate, which in turn is a translation of the Koine Greek word harpazo, which is found in the Greek New Testament manuscripts of 1 Thessalonians 4:17. In many modern English translations of the Bible, harpazo is translated; "caught up", or "taken away" which really makes more sense than "rapture" and is closer to the original meaning. "Harpazo" \har-pad'-zo\ Koine Greek; "forcibly snatched away", "taken for oneself". At any rate, the idea is there, in Scripture, and not just in that one passage.

As for what the Early Church thought:

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" (On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373 -- written comments quoted in the Works of Nathaniel Lardner, Vol. 4, 1788 -- translated to English by translated by Professor Cameron Rhoades, of Tyndale Theological Seminary).

In fact, Justin Martyr (110-165 AD) was one Premillennialist who went so far as to suggest that anyone with a different viewpoint was heretical. (Ref: The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus by Schaff, Philip (1819-1893)).

Puritan leader, Increase Mather (1639-1723), argued “that the saints would be caught up into the air” and thus escape the world’s final conflagration. (Paul Boyer, When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern American Culture -- Cambridge, MA: Belknap Press, 1992, page 75.)

Peter Jurieu in his book, Approaching Deliverance of the Church (1687) taught that Christ would come in the air to rapture the saints and return to Heaven before the battle of Armageddon . . . Philip Doddridge’s commentary on the New Testament (1738) and John Gill’s commentary on the New Testament (1748) both use the term rapture and speak of it as imminent.

James Macknight (1763) and Thomas Scott (1792) taught that the righteous will be carried to heaven, where they will be secure until the time of judgment is over.

Clement and Origen were known to be in the pre-Trib camp (Lindsey, Hal, The Road to Holocaust, Bantam, (1989), p.77)

St. Augestine's writings also tend to support the idea of the believers in Christ being spared the Great Tribulation. (Keeley, Robin, Eerdmans’ Handbook to Christian Belief, Wm B Eerdmans Publishing, (1982), p.415)

I realize the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches beat the idea of pre-Trib rapture out of their flocks, but we're talking there about the same traditions that teach that the Pope may speak with the Authority of God, that Mary should be worshipped, and that there is no Salvation outside the Church -- your miliage may vary, but I'll stand on the Promises of God in Scripture over the traditions of mankind, no matter how lofty those men may think themselves to be.

If you really want to stay down here and be "purged" of your remaining sins in suffering and death, all the while risking the direct contact with the Antichrist himself and the temptations of the cults of Mystery Babylon and being unable to do anything needed to live without first taking the sign of the Beast...you enjoy that battle.

I'm personally satisfied that Christ's blood was sufficient to purge all my sins and purify my soul and so when I hear trumpets I'll be running outside to be carried up to Him rather than dodging for cover to hide from Satan's stormtroopers for seven years of Hell on Earth.

I'm really not just trying to judgementally point a finger and say "wrong, wrong, for shame." I just want you to know the danger of failing to believe that you can be spared the incredible horrors of the Great Tribulation. No one sane wants to see those last seven years, but by failing to believe you have any way out, you may end up stuck with them.

If I am wrong, then I will see those years despite my faith. In those days, I will beg the Lord to forgive me for my hubris and misinterpretation of scripture, and I will endure those trials by His grace as best I can. But if you are wrong, you are setting yourself up to endure seven years of torment like nothing you can imagine and that you don't have to experience -- I would spare you that if I could.

Share my joy at knowing that because we believe in Him, Jesus will "keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth." (Rev. 3:10)

I have several Christian friends who are more frightened by all the prophecy being fulfilled around us than they are happy. They look to the end of days with fear and dread of what's to come. I have no such trepidation. Let it come as soon as the Lord will allow and I will rejoice. But I have nothing to fear and everything to look forward to in those days. I wish you could see what I see.

Janette

"Sola Scriptura"

 

[Chad]

I just resently was surfing the web and feel upon a site of a woman/man who claimed to have gotten the date of the Rapture (will not say the date unless given permission) from God himself i was a little skeptical so i looked it up and i found the scripture 1st Thessalonians ch 5 verses 1-3 saying we wouldn't know. Am i ok to believe that no one not even a christian will know the day of Rapture?

This woman has no idea what she is talking about and sadly, she is deceived.

Matthew 24:36-37

No One Knows the Day or Hour

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven,^[a] but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.


Please do not just believe anything you read, except Scripture itself.

 

[Janette]

50 reasons to believe Pretribulationism

Historical Argument
1. While posttribulationism appeared as early as 2 Thessalonians 2, many in the early church believed in the imminency of the Lord's return, which is an essential doctrine of pretribulationism.

2. The detailed development of the pretribulational truth during the past few centuries does not prove that the doctrine is new or novel. Its development is similar to that of other major doctrines in the history of the church.

Hermeneutics
3. Pretribulationism is the only view that allows literal interpretation of all Old and New Testament passages on the Great Tribulation.

4. Pretribulationism distinguishes clearly between Israel and the church and their respective programs.

Nature of the Tribulation
5. Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it.

6. The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel's restoration (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.

7. None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).

8. None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30; 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18).

9. In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.

10. The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.

11. The unity of Daniel's seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel's seventieth week and confuse Israel's program with that of the church.

Nature of the Church
12. The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation.

13. The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter "the great day of their wrath" (Rev. 6:17).

14. The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation.

15. The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

16. The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from "the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth" (Rev. 3:10).

17. It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9).

18. At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father's house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach.

19. Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.

20. The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17).

21. As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.

22. The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists.

23. The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only.

Doctrine of Imminency
24. The pretribulational interpretation teaches that the coming of Christ is actually imminent.

25. The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pretribulational view and is especially contradicted by most posttribulationists.

26. The exhortation to look for "the glorious appearing" of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs.

27. The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord's return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3).

28. The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the Tribulation are directed to look for signs.

The Work of the Holy Spirit
29. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted.

30. The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before "the lawless one," who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).

31. If the expression "except there come a falling away first" (KJV) is translated literally, "except the "departure" come first," it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.

Necessity of an Interval Between the Rapture and the Second Coming
32. According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

33. If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation.

34. The coming of Christ for His bride must take place before the Second Coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10).

35. Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach.

36. The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies. This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming.

37. If the translation took place in connection with the Second Coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31).

38. The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38), which occurs subsequent to the Second Coming, indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the Second Coming and would be unnecessary if the saved had previously been separated from the unsaved by translation.

Contrast Between the Rapture and the Second Coming
39. At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.

40. At the time of the Rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the Second Coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5).

41. At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

42. At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation.

43. At the time of the Rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the Second Coming the world is judged and righteousness is established on the earth.

44. The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the Second Coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the Tribulation.

45. The Rapture is described as imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by definite signs.

46. The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the Second Coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments.

47. The Rapture concerns only the saved, while the Second Coming deals with both saved and unsaved.

48. At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.

49. No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming.

50. No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.

Written by: John F. Walvoord
(The Rapture Question, Zondervan)

 

[Discipler]

Something that seems to have been overlooked in both the original post, and the responses is the fact that the tribulation is a time of judgment on the earth. The purpose of these judgments is an attempt by God to get those remaining on the earth to realize that He really is who he says He is, so that they should turn from their sin. Those who have received the mark of the beast are of course beyond the possibility of repentance.

If you look at other times in scripture where God brought judgment on the earth, (the flood, Sodom & Gomorrah, Jericho), you see that before God began to bring His judgment He always took the righteous out of harms way. If these can be considered precedent setting events, it seems to make sense that He would again remove the righteous BEFORE the earth's final judgments began to take place.

If you look particularly at the case of Sodom & Gomorrah, when abraham was interceding for the city, he asked the question, "Would you also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" (Genesis18:23) As you can see in the rest of the story, Lot and his family were warned and given the chance to vacate before the judgment rained down from heaven.

In the case of Jericho (Joshua 2), Rahab and her family were spared because she aided the spies and was counted righteous (James 2:25). If you will look in the lineage of Jesus, you will find Rahab mentioned there. (Matt. 1:5)

In the case of the flood, Noah and his entire family were the only ones spared and left to repopulate the earth. (Genesis Chapters 7, 8, 9)

These seem like reasonable evidences for a pretribulation rapture, because if God is anything, He is consistent. "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever." Hebrews 13:8

 

[ushalk]

i see where you are coming from. but you keep bringing up the resurrection but the resurrection took place already so why would it have to be mentioned? please explain your thinking here?

 

[Hisalone]

Chad and all

I have engaged in this debate once before, so I will save myself the time and offer my brief thoughts on this.

First of all, no matter where your beliefs or convictions stand as to when the rapture happens makes no difference. We are all still brethren. Remember that when addressing one another, because it is an interesting debate.

There seem to be three major positions on this, but I offer you a fourth.

Pre-tribulationism-the belief that the rapture of the Church will occur before the tribulation.

Mid-tribulationism-the belief that the rapture of the Church will occur sometime after the start but not before the end of the tribulation period, most likely at the three and a half year point.

Post-tribulationism-the belief that the rapture of the Church will occur sometime after the tribulation period.

Pan-tribulationism-This is where my personal convictions and beliefs lie. Whatever 'pans' out, that's where I'm gonna be.

:shade::lightbulb

Peace be unto you all and continue with the aim to edify one another.

Hisalone

 

[ushalk]

that is a great post his alone and you are right. we all need to look at this as a time and the perfect chance for the lord to teach us all learn one from another.

i personelly do not see where there is anything pointing out a pre trib. rapture. rather what i do see is that we are all very much warned to stay strong and close to one another for this time. i do not have time but i wll show old tesiment and new testiment prophecies of this.

 

[Ed Edwards]

What is interesting is that the x-trib view comes
from the x-millennial view. In fact, the early
church was pre-millennial Second Coming and didn't
even have a x-trib view - they were in tribulation.

Recall that the x-trib view relates the rapture
of the church (the 'caught up' of
Tribulation Period (AKA: the 70th week of Daniel).

Recall that the x-mill view relates the Second Coming
of Christ to earth to the Millennial Messianic Kingdom.

recall the Greek prefix 'a' (pronounced 'ah' means
'not' or 'none'.

So if one makes Millennial Messianic Kingdom
'literal & spiritual' - they are a-mill.
If one makes the Tribulation period 'literal & spiritual'
then they are a-trib.

In any case, your x-trib or x-mill position makes
no difference in your salvation.

 

[ushalk]

that is quite interesting. i have never heard that before. i have been reading through the book of daniellately and in see in there where the church is going to go through some very hard times and troubles but the church will prevail with christ.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Obviously the United states is going to
invade Iran. Iran is a hand puppet for Red China.

BTW, how many unmarried Chinamen are there
now? I'm thinking 200 Million by 2020.

Here seem to be China's choices:

1. marriage = one woman, two men
2. marriage = one man, two men, maybe four
3. go find 200 Million extra women -- the Muslim
countries should work. Actually you only need about
50 Million extra women, 3/4 of the armies would be
casualties.

Mat 24:21-22 (KJV1611 Edition):

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was
not since the beginning of the world to this time,
no, nor euer shall be.
22 And except those dayes should be shortned,
there should no flesh be saued:
but for the elects sake, those dayes shall be shortned.

the three Greek words translated 'for the elects sake"
are just as likely to be translated "because of the elect",
i.e. it is the elect snatched off the Earth in the
Pretribulation Rapture/Resurrection who are in heaven
watching the Tribulation Period on Earth who appeal
to God to spare some flesh.

You know When I got saved in 1952 it happened at
Revival held by a Pre-tribulation Rapturist, I figured
that God was going to get those bad guys one of
these days & I didn't want to be one of them.
But about 1964 was the first time mankind could do
the Tribulation Period bad stuff WITHOUT HELP FROM
GOD -- I'm talking Nuclear war (etc.) that would
erase at least all human life from earth, maybe all
life???
So then I saw: God has planned a Tribulation Period
to eternally save a maximum number of elect Jewish/Israeli
Saints -- lGod will keep us from destroying ourselves.
(a note on recent disarmement: the nuclear bombs on
the face of the earth have been reduced from 22 times
what it takes to kill everybody to a mere 3 times what
it takes to kill everybody. Only God can save humanity.

Day of the Lord = when God interferes with Humanity
(to save them from them

 

[Ed Edwards]

that is quite interesting. i have never heard that before. i have been reading through the book of daniellately and in see in there where the church is going to go through some very hard times and troubles but the church will prevail with christ.

Amen, Brother Ushalk -- Preach it!

Stay tuned to this topic.
I know some more things about the history of the
x-Tribulation/Rapture relation theories and how they can
be 'proved' from the Holy Bible(s).
I know some more things about the history of the
x-Millennial/Second Advent relation theories
and how they can be 'proved' from the Holy Bible(s).
I know how one's outlook of Bible(s) prophecies
determines what x-Millennial/Second Advent relation theory
can be considered.
I know how one's x-Millennial/Second Advent
relation theory determines x-Tribulation/Rapture
relation theory that one can have (and prove it

But remember I'm called to help God's Ministers
(and all those saved by Messiah Yeshua /Jesus/
are indeed called to be God's Ministers.
So you stick around, if you are interested.
In Mathematics we have equations that can
have multiple correct solutions.
These
Then after I tell what can be proved, i'll get
back to why I'm a Futurist, Pre-millennial Second
Commer, Pretribulation Rapturist. Amen.