Evidence For A PreTribulation Rapture

[Ed Edwards]

There are four possible Basic Approaches
to Prophecy. All of them are believed by some
Christians:

Preterism (past)
Historicism (now)
Futurism (future)
Idealism (timeless)

Preterism - the Tribulation Period has already taken place.

Historicism - the Tribulation Period started in
the 4th century (301-400AD) in events pertaining
to Constantine & his Christianization of the Roman Empire
and continues until the Second Coming.

Futurism - most prophetic events will take
place in the future especially: Tribulation Period,
Second Coming, & Millinnial Messanic
Kingdom.

Idealism - there is no specific timing for events,
the prophecies of the New Testament are to
be understood spiritually (they are still Literal & REAL)
not physically.

There are three basic relationships between the
Millennial Messanic Kingdom and the Second Coming
of Messiah Jesus:

a-mill
pre-mill
post-mill

a-mill - 'no mill' - the millinnial Messanic Kingdom
is to be interpeted real, literal, and spiritual

pre-mill - the physical Second Coming of Messiah Jesus
will be before the physical Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

post-mill - mankind will set up a physical Millennial Messanic Kingdom
worth of Christ who will then have His Second Coming

Preterism (past) can lead only to:
a-mill
post-mill
(it cannot lead to pre-mill because the Millennium
hasn't happened yet)

Historicism (now) can lead to all three x-mills
a-mill
pre-mill
post-mill

Futurism (future) and only be:
pre-mill
post-mill
(if you are a-mill then likely you are Idealistic or Peteristic)

Idealism (timeless) can only be:
a-mill - the millennial Kingdom is within (spiritual),
so is the second coming)
post-mill - the millennial Kingdom is within (spiritual),
but the second coming is physical
(pre-mill cannot be because it calls for a physical
Millennial Messianic Kingdom and a physical Second
Coming)

 

[Ed Edwards]

the LORD told Abram (later Abraham):
Genesis 12:3 (KJV1611 Edition):

And I will blesse them that blesse thee,
and curse him, that curseth thee:
and in thee shal all families of the earth be blessed.

I claim this promise by saying:

Hasheem be Praised!
May the G-d of Abraham, G-d of the Jews:
please bless the nation Yisrael both in
the Land and throughout the World
in the dispersion, as it
enters the Sabbatical Year: 5768.
(this start at sundown in Jerusalem
on our 9-month/12th day/2007CE
and so will the Rosh Hashanna celebration.)

I'm going to get a blessing from G-d!
Say AMEN & you can have one also.

(side note to those who believe a
6,000 year period will be followed by
the 1,000 year Messianic Kingdom:
we only got 6,000 - 5,768 = 232 years
to go! )

 

[rs3vans]

Hey Janice,

I would like to comment (not debate) a few of the things you said. I want you to know that I hold a post-trib eschatology, and I normally would seek to get pre-tribs to see "the errors of their ways". However, you have made some comments that really caused me to respect you. Please give the same respect to what I have to say...

If you really want to stay down here and be "purged" of your remaining sins in suffering and death, all the while risking the direct contact with the Antichrist himself and the temptations of the cults of Mystery Babylon and being unable to do anything needed to live without first taking the sign of the Beast...you enjoy that battle.

First of all, I do not believe that there is a post-trib because I want to stay on Earth, be miserable, and hang out with the Antichrist. I would like to ask why you think this would be a motive of a post-trib holder? This is what I believe: The purification of the believers (the Church) during the tribulation is NOT to purify sins. Jesus speaks of this time and he, in no way, says that we are to be subject to tribulation in payment for our sins. That is wrong - Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross did that.
Matthew 24:12-14 says:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And the Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come.
This confirms my belief that our purpose, as believers, during the tribulation is to be a weapon for God. The Church, which is currently in a sad state, will be purified. All those who claim to be Christian (certainly not talking about you, or anyone in specific) but really aren't will show thier true colors. This will be the Churche's GREATEST moment. Why would you want to skip that?

I'm personally satisfied that Christ's blood was sufficient to purge all my sins and purify my soul and so when I hear trumpets I'll be running outside to be carried up to Him rather than dodging for cover to hide from Satan's stormtroopers for seven years of Hell on Earth.

Again, yes Jesus saved your soul. The great tribulation is NOT meant to purge sins. Too often people make the mistake of combining judgement against the soul with trials for the body. God NEVER promises his believers that they will be free from trials of the body, and to think he will just because its the end of the world seems a little foolish to me.

I'm really not just trying to judgementally point a finger and say "wrong, wrong, for shame." I just want you to know the danger of failing to believe that you can be spared the incredible horrors of the Great Tribulation. No one sane wants to see those last seven years, but by failing to believe you have any way out, you may end up stuck with them.

I believe you have again missed the point of a believers role during the tribulation. YES, there WILL BE HORRORS. But there will also be a great "preaching of the Good News throughout the whole world"!
Acts 2:17 says:
17 ‘In the last days,’ God says,
‘I will pour out my Spirit upon all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions,
and your old men will dream dreams.
Answer me this! Does this not sound AWESOME?!? Wouldn't you want to serve God in outpouring, even if you have to be alive during the tribulation??

If I am wrong, then I will see those years despite my faith. In those days, I will beg the Lord to forgive me for my hubris and misinterpretation of scripture, and I will endure those trials by His grace as best I can. But if you are wrong, you are setting yourself up to endure seven years of torment like nothing you can imagine and that you don't have to experience -- I would spare you that if I could.

This is what gave me such respect for you. I have NEVER once heard a pre-trib admit that they could be wrong. I am SO GLAD that you have declared that it could happend and that you would not fall away from God because of it. This is SO IMPORTANT! The bible speaks of a great falling away (2 Thess 2:3) which must take place and marks the beginning of the great trib. How will so many people who are expecting to be raptured react when they aren't? The only way someone could "fall away" from God, is if they knew him in the first place. This means this groupp are ALL CHRISTIANS who fall away and LOOSE THEIR SALVATION! This is HORRIBLE! I thank God for you, and pray daily for those who could fall.

Share my joy at knowing that because we believe in Him, Jesus will "keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth." (Rev. 3:10)

I am sorry, but is unwise to apply this verse, which is a message written to a specific church in John's time, to mean that Jesus will remove you from the Earth during the great tribulation. God will CERTAINLY have mercy on his chosen ones during this time! This is GOOD NEWS! He does not condem us allong with the rest of the unbelievers. But he doesn't say that he will never try us. Trial purifies and edifies one's faith! If anyone thinks that they are so holy that they do not need this, then they are in denial. Jesus has saved us with his sacrifice, but we are never perfect until we are resurrected!

I have several Christian friends who are more frightened by all the prophecy being fulfilled around us than they are happy. They look to the end of days with fear and dread of what's to come. I have no such trepidation. Let it come as soon as the Lord will allow and I will rejoice. But I have nothing to fear and everything to look forward to in those days. I wish you could see what I see.

It is true that many are frightened by end-times! This is the main reason, I believe, that so many try to stretch the Bible to support a pre-trib rapture. They fear the tribulation and think that it will be so horrible that they'd rather just skip it. This would be nice, but it just isn't scriptural, or Godly. God tries his people all over the place. Jesus and his deciples were so persecuted for their beliefs; John the Baptist was beheaded, Paul was stoned many times, Jesus was crucified, etc... The only reasons why one would come to the conclusion of a pre-trib rapture is either:
1) They do not know any better (this used to be me!).
2) They are afraid, in denial, want to apply their selfish wishes to God's will, etc... People want so much to believe that they won't be tried because of thier faith. Why do you think God would do this??? Even in the time of the Jews slavery in Egypt: Yes, God delivered them from his judgments (as God will have mercy on us during the tribulation), but he did not remove them from harm. The Jews suffered slavery, torture, persecution, and muder at the hands of the Egyptian; these were even HIS people!


I certainly respect you and can see that you have a strong faith in God -- this is more than can be said about many! I will always continue to urge those who I believe are mislead to re-evaluate their beliefs. Do you REALLY, REALLY think the Bible says you will be raptured? Doe you REALLY, REALLY think that this fits the pattern that God has shown throught the Bible, and that it fits the teachings of Jesus?? Or do you just hope that you do not go through the tribulation because you do not think God will try you, or expect you to proove your faith; you are afraid of being persecuted and hated for your beliefs. You are comfortable with the Earth you are in now, and do not want to have to face the difficulties of the Earth during the tribulation. I know this may come across harsh, but that's because it is...

As always, God bless...

Ryan

 

[youngjohn]

People who believe in a post tribulation rapture do not believe it because they want trouble. They believe it because the Bible seems to teach it. A great company are seen coming out of the great tribulation in Rev. 7:14. They had to be in it before coming out of it.

The gathering of the elect in Matt. 24:31 (after the great tribulation) has to be the rapture because the chapter is a discussion of the parousia of Jesus, and St. Paul said in I Thess 4:15-17 that the parousia of Jesus is the time of the rapture.

If we were to be raptured before the tribulation, why does Jesus tell us in Luke 21:36 to pray so we will have strength to escape the tribulation?

youngjohn

 

[ElderPaul]

You mentioned Luke 21:36 as a warning to Christians about the tribulation, but's it's not.

In verse 36, Jesus says that to pray that you be found worthy to escape the things that shall come to pass, etc. When?

In verse 34. Jesus tells us about "A day" that shall come unawares
if you are not looking for it.

Then in verse 35, Jesus says that "this day" will come as a "snare".
Once in a "snare" you are dead. Nothing later.

Paul tells us about "A day" that will come with "sudden destruction".
This day is the DAY OF THE LORD. The day that Jesus spoke of escaping is the same day that Paul spoke of. Destruction will come on ONE DAY, THE FINAL DAY, THE LAST DAY that Jesus spoke of, WHEN
the dead shall rise, THE FINAL HAREST.

We are not appointed unto wrath, but to obtain salvation through Jesus christ.

The tribulation comes with observance. It starts with a seven year
covenant. It doesn't come as sudden destruction, but will last seven years. It doesn't come as "A Snare", because you still have seven years of trouble.

And, according to Joel 2:31, the Day of the Lords follows the ending of the tribulation period. Matthew 24:29, same darkness as Joel 2:31.

God bless

 

[petrus romanus]

in the book of revelation the author strictly warns people not to take or add to the book of revelation. It is suffice to say our arguments in terms of rapture will not change the book of revelation. What wiill be wiill be and no faith is going to change the book. It is as it is known when the time comes rapture or not. We better be prepared to face trbulations so that we would not panick. Our faith asked us to be prepared. I cant say anything about the rapture and the speculations. Too many speculations and so only God knows the truth. I am not against such a good idea of rapture but i am not going to sit upon speculations. I remain less concern with the book of revelation and more concerned withn the way the truth eternal life. No one knows the time yet all know the way the truth. Let us have faith and hope that everything wiill turn good for us. Amen

 

[youngjohn]

To understand the rapture better, we should try to locate it in the Old Testament. We can do this by finding references to the resurrection of the saints. Try Hosea 13:13, 14; Jeremiah 30:6-9; Daniel 12:1-3; Isaiah 26:18-21. Connect these to verses llike 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and Matthew 24: 21-39.

John

 

[youngjohn]

These four Old Testament references to the resurrection of the saints (and therefore to the rapture) agree with the order given in Matthew 24. It says, "immediately after the tribulation of those days .... they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds .... and they will gather His elect ...."

The biblical order here is Great Tribulation and then rapture."

John

 

[ElderPaul]

Brother John, you are right.

While reading through these post, I read where sister Janette posted, saying what the early church fathers had to say about the rapture.

If you really want to know what they said, go to my thread, "What the early church fathers said about the rapture". Janette quoted someone who was misleading because they didn't give "the rest of the story". This was not Janettes fault.

God bless

 

[Gracealone]

We just studied through the Revelation, not to many months back.
Our Pastor pointed out an interesting point I had never noticed before.....
I believe it must have been just after the letter to the churches, maybe ch.5 ,not sure without looking, but we see the Lord "Standing", taking the scroll. He pointed out the fact that right now the Lord is "sitting" at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us.
The reason he is no longer sitting in the 5th chapter is because we are with him. No longer any need to be making intercession......just looked ...it is in the 6th vrs.
I love these jewels of insight the Lord gives in his word.

 

[ElderPaul]

We just studied through the Revelation, not to many months back.
Our Pastor pointed out an interesting point I had never noticed before.....
I believe it must have been just after the letter to the churches, maybe ch.5 ,not sure without looking, but we see the Lord "Standing", taking the scroll. He pointed out the fact that right now the Lord is "sitting" at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us.
The reason he is no longer sitting in the 5th chapter is because we are with him. No longer any need to be making intercession......just looked ...it is in the 6th vrs.
I love these jewels of insight the Lord gives in his word.

Thank you for the comment. The point that you make about the Lord no longer making intercession could be true. But there is nothing in the context that would place this observation before the tribulation. If you are speculating that, since this scene is BEFORE the telling of the 7 seals, then it proves that the church is in heaven before the trib, that logic can't be used because Revelation is not in chronological order.

Quote:
"The reason he is no longer "sitting" in the 5th chapter is because we are with him". Quote>


If you go back and read Acts chapter 7 where Stephen is stoned, you will read that Stephen looked up into heaven and saw Jesus "standing" on the right hand of God. You can see that Jesus was "standing" back in the first century.

Let me give you a scripture to evaluate.

We know that Jesus is going to come again and restore the earth to its
Eden like condition, and that he is going to restore the kingdom again to Israel, and will do this After the tribulation is over.

Acts 3:20,21.
"And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

"Whom the heaven must receive UNTIL the times of restitution of ALL
THINGS, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all the holy prophets since the world began".

My question is: If Jesus is to stay in heaven until the restitution of all things, how can he come seven years before the end?

God bless

 

[Lion_of_Judah]

My question is: If Jesus is to stay in heaven until the restitution of all things, how can he come seven years before the end?

For me, that is explained in that He doesn't come to us.. We go to him, in the air.


Also agree with you concerning Jesus standing. Not relevant in the church being in heaven.


As to the whether the church is remaining during the first half of the tribulation.. Let me ask this:

Why is there need for the Two Olive Trees to be on the earth as witnesses before the whole world,
when the Spirit already does that through the church?

We know peoples lives are touched, changed, and redeemed everyday. This is accomplished through the body of Christ.
Why would God supercede (via another witness to His plan of salvation) the plan He commissioned from the time Jesus left the earth?
Almost as if to say," my first idea was good, but it needed a little bit more." ?
It doesn't make sense.

With, however, the church removed from the earth at the beginning of the trib, the olive trees along with the 144,000
are powerful witnesses to the entire world. And there will be new converts to Christ, who've heard from friends, family and those annoying "Christians", for days and years on end... now to find out what they were talking about was true all along.


LoJ

 

[Gracealone]

If you go back and read Acts chapter 7 where Stephen is stoned, you will read that Stephen looked up into heaven and saw Jesus "standing" on the right hand of God. You can see that Jesus was "standing" back in the first century.

True, but Jesus is greeting Stephen at his death...in Revelation Jesus is taking the scrolls.

I believe Jesus greets us all at the time of our death but he will stand in judgment only during the tribulation period.
Also from the 4th chapter on the church is not mentioned again until we return with him at the end of revelation.
There will be tribulation saints mentioned, but they are not the church.
We, the church, are not appointed unto wrath. The tribulation saints are experiencing wrath.
The time element does make his standing in Revelation different than with Stephen. There is an eternal day in Heaven that I don't think we totally understand, I know I dont, for the Bible say those who go on before us will not precede us, yet when we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord.
If we could bring God down to our level of understanding he wouldn't be God.
In chapter 4 of Revelation just before he takes the scroll, he is sitting at the right hand of the Father. Then he stands to take the scroll for no other was found worthy.
This along with the church not being mention again until ch. 19 still makes this unique. From this point on ,with title deed in hand, the seals will be opened. These things have not begun to happen yet, nor at the time of Stephens death, but they will happen, and right now Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us.
There he is standing taking the scroll, and then the Seals will be open.
These are yet future, where is Jesus right now?
The Bible still says he is sitting at the right hand of the Father ,making intercession. Does that mean he never stands? For 2000 years? I don't think so, but the elements I mentioned are still significant.
We are still here, right now, there, in ch. 5 we are with him in Heaven.
He doesn't need to be making intercession, we are with him.
Remember , No scripture is of private interpretation. When we look at the whole picture ,it fits beautifully.
Well, it does for me anyway, so only wanted to share.
I'm watching and waiting for my Lords return, and believe it may be at any hour now.
May he find me doing his perfect will, how ever small that may be.

 

[ElderPaul]

Quote:
We, the church, are not appointed unto wrath. The tribulation saints are experiencing wrath. Quote>


Anytime that You see a scripture saying something that it doesn't directly say, you are using private interpetation.

Let me ask you a question. When does God say that he will pour out his wrath? Please document your answer with a scripture.

Hint: You will have to go to the old testament.

God bless, please stay with me on this.

 

[ElderPaul]

For me, that is explained in that He doesn't come to us.. We go to him, in the air.


Also agree with you concerning Jesus standing. Not relevant in the church being in heaven.


As to the whether the church is remaining during the first half of the tribulation.. Let me ask this:

Why is there need for the two olive trees to be on the earth as witnesses before the whole world,
when the Spirit already does that through the church?

We know peoples lives are touched, changed, and redeemed everyday. This is accomplished through the body of Christ.
Why would God supercede (via another witness to His plan of salvation) the plan He commissioned from the time Jesus left the earth?
Almost as if to say," my first idea was good, but it needed a little bit more." ?
It doesn't make sense.

With, however, the church removed from the earth at the beginning of the trib, the olive trees along with the 144,000
are powerful witnesses to the entire world. And there will be new converts to Christ, who've heard from friends, family and those annoying "Christians", for days and years on end... now to find out what they were talking about was true all along.


LoJ

You said, "Why would God ?" You ask a question, then you answer it .
You do not draw from the word of God for answers. Scripture interprets
scripture. You are using private interpretations.

Quote: LOJ
For me, that is explained in that He doesn't come to us.. We go to him, in the air >

Acts 3:21, Jesus would have to COME to the clouds above the earth.

Jesus calls it a COMING, John 14:3.

Paul calls it a COMING, 1 Corinth1:7, 1 Thess. 2:19, 3:13, 4:15, 5:23,
2 Thess 2:1.
James called it a COMING, James 5:7
Peter called it a COMING, 2 Peter1:16.

So did John.

Where is he COMING from? He's COMING from the right hand of the Father. Where's that? In the 3rd heaven, 2 Corinth 12:2. He was RECEIVED into the HEAVEN where God's throne is. If we meet him in the
clouds in the air, he would have to leave THE HEAVEN where God's throne is, to COME to the first heaven, which is our sky, to meet us.
The bible says that birds fly in the heavens, Jer 4:25, Zeph 1:3. They don't fly in THE HEAVEN where God's throne is.


quote:
Why is there need for the two olive trees to be on the earth as witnesses before the whole world, when the Spirit already does that through the church?>>


Here's my answer to your question that you have already answered.

I don't know. His thoughts are higher than my thoughts. Would it be possible for the two witnesses to be on earth the same time as the church? If God wanted it that way, why not? He was still dealing with
Israel forty years after the church was established, wasn't he? Israel came back as a nation, and the church is still here, isn't it?

My advise to you is, stick to direct scripture. When the bible says it, you don't have to explain yourself.

God bless

 

[golfjack]

reply

I most certainly agree with a pre-trib rapture. This is not rocket science, but a Biblical fact. I do know that Catholics believe in a post-trib rapture, but this is faulty, like most of their teachings. When did they go wrong? When Constintine started a state church. Then, their timing of the end-times went way off schedule.

Here is something to ponder: When will the war of Ezekiel commence? I believe right before the rapture. Why? For the anti-christ to make a peace treaty for awhile, I believe there has to be an event to make peace about. Russia and the Arab nations will descend upon Jerusalem, but God will intervene and defeat them. Then, get ready, we are going up with Jesus to heaven. Praise God:groupwave::groupwave:

 

[Gracealone]

I was answering ElderPaul: Sorry I took so long

Yes........ Matthew 3:7 says:But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them,Oh generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee the wrath to come....John preaching.......
Revelation 6:16 And said to the mountains, and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of wrath of God upon the earth.
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the Holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.
1Thes. 1:10
And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Thes .5:9
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.....:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together and edify one another, even as also you do.....
Eph.5:6
Let no man decieve youwith vain words ,for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon children of disobedience.
also Revelation 16:19.... you can look this one up

Then also I would let you know ,I didn't come in here to debate, but hoping to find fellowship with believers, and the hope we have in Christ.

 

[ElderPaul]

Gracealone,

I'm not wanting to debate you, I just want to show you something.

Let me rephrase my question.

What day does the wrath of God fall on?

 

[ElderPaul]

I most certainly agree with a pre-trib rapture. This is not rocket science, but a Biblical fact. I do know that Catholics believe in a post-trib rapture, but this is faulty, like most of their teachings. When did they go wrong? When Constintine started a state church. Then, their timing of the end-times went way off schedule.

Here is something to ponder: When will the war of Ezekiel commence? I believe right before the rapture. Why? For the anti-christ to make a peace treaty for awhile, I believe there has to be an event to make peace about. Russia and the Arab nations will descend upon Jerusalem, but God will intervene and defeat them. Then, get ready, we are going up with Jesus to heaven. Praise God:groupwave::groupwave:

All the major themes of the bible are taught by direct statements in scripture.

1. Who are the elect of God? Romans 8:33, Col 3:12, Titus 1:1, 1 Peter 1:2, We are.

2. When is Jesus coming for the elect of God? Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days, Matthew 24:29.

And THEN shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven.

And He shall send his angels to gather his ELECT, etccccc.


Where is your so-called Rocket science biblical fact scripture that SAYS in direct statement that Jesus is coming BEFORE the tribulation to get ANYTHING, including your garbage? I mean ANYTHING!!!!!
Show me in direct statements!!!!! And I don't want any of those "I believe" statements that you made above.

God bless

 

[golfjack]

reply

Deacon, This is getting nasty. I will not debate with people like you. :secret::helppc::angry: