Faith or works or both?

[Bill]

maybe your not listening to the right preachers, I know plenty of preachers that teach biblical money handling

That is good . Because the tithing Jesus speaks of comes from the heart

 

[Bill]

Churches won't survive in this culture without money. Church people gather together in buildings of some sort -- requiring utilities / light , water, gas. The pastor needs to be paid -- his family needs a place to live and food to eat and transportation. And a good church will be supporting missions both foreign and local.

Back a few months ago -- a person needs employment -- the person Will pray about getting a job / income -- but Without going out and aggresively Looking for that job -- it Won't come to your doorstep knocking.

Back some years ago a church Did try the approach to make it known that there were two places in the church where people could place their offering Rather than sending the offering plate around. Just to see what would happen.
After a few weeks, they found that people Needed to be reminded to give. People Tend to be lazy with their finances. There Are those who will give to help support church expenses. But lots Won't.

The churches I go to over the years have quarterly business meetings -- we can see in black and white where church finances stand.

Some churches have their congregants do pledges every year.

In the near future , Churches will have no money .

People need to use this experience to figure out how to get around all these crazy laws coming out .

The One Worlders have woken up, and are paying great attention to how all in the world are reacting to the fear.

It is the Christians who they hate the most . We all need to find a way to put aside our differences . Hear oh Israel Our God is One.

And this phrase reflects the Church of God . His Children. You are one in the Father . Live that way

 

[Born Again 2004]

There is a lot of truth in your words . It is true that those who walk in the Spirit recognize others who do so

However, When a person is born again , if you do not fan into a flame your faith , if you do not allow the fire of God to consume you , if your heart isnt circumcised. Then you will not recognize the Holy Spirit in your brothers and sisters .

Just because a person recieves the Holy Spirit , is still not a guarentee of Heaven. Because we have a choice. Will we walk with God ? Or we , like many who fell after being born again in the 70's and 80's , will we allow pride to rule us.

I See it differently. If you receive the Holy Spirit in you it is a gift of God based on your belief in Him and a sure sign you are "Born Again" AND going to heaven!

 

[Trevor]

Churches won't survive in this culture without money. Church people gather together in buildings of some sort -- requiring utilities / light , water, gas. The pastor needs to be paid -- his family needs a place to live and food to eat and transportation. And a good church will be supporting missions both foreign and local.

Back a few months ago -- a person needs employment -- the person Will pray about getting a job / income -- but Without going out and aggresively Looking for that job -- it Won't come to your doorstep knocking.

Back some years ago a church Did try the approach to make it known that there were two places in the church where people could place their offering Rather than sending the offering plate around. Just to see what would happen.
After a few weeks, they found that people Needed to be reminded to give. People Tend to be lazy with their finances. There Are those who will give to help support church expenses. But lots Won't.

The churches I go to over the years have quarterly business meetings -- we can see in black and white where church finances stand.

Some churches have their congregants do pledges every year.

There is a lot of truth in your words . It is true that those who walk in the Spirit recognize others who do so

However, When a person is born again , if you do not fan into a flame your faith , if you do not allow the fire of God to consume you , if your heart isnt circumcised. Then you will not recognize the Holy Spirit in your brothers and sisters .

Just because a person recieves the Holy Spirit , is still not a guarentee of Heaven. Because we have a choice. Will we walk with God ? Or we , like many who fell after being born again in the 70's and 80's , will we allow pride to rule us.

Just because a person recieves the Holy Spirit , is still not a guarentee of Heaven. Because we have a choice. Will we walk with God ? Or we , like many who fell after being born again in the 70's and 80's , will we allow pride to rule us.

Hi Bill, I think you got this one a bit wrong; Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, You were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession -- to the praise of his glory.

 

[Bill]

I See it differently. If you receive the Holy Spirit in you it is a gift of God based on your belief in Him and a sure sign you are "Born Again" AND going to heaven!

Satan was given much , he was a Prince in Heaven . But he became proud.

Many of those who went through the " renewal " of the 70's and 80's also became proud

Just because a person has the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is no guarantee. Just look at Judas . Scripture says Jesus gave them ( Apostles ) the authority to cast out demons and heal people . Jesus said thier names were written in Heaven. And still Judas rejects Jesus ( something he chose to do ) and was rejected by God

 

[Bill]

Hi Bill, I think you got this one a bit wrong; Ephesians 1:13-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, You were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession -- to the praise of his glory.

I used to think that the Apostle Paul was proud by stating , " i am the worst of sinners " . But i really understand that .

I am not wrong when i tell you , pride is the faith killer . And anyone can get it .

I hope you never experience it

The dark night of the soul is a rough ride

Remember, Moses almost lost heaven out of pride, he hit the rock twice.

 

[Brother-Paul]

that is key, when I go to a church they better have a out reach program helping other, and I am not talking about token amounts so they can say look we give back

This has been discussed used on here Dave, some time ago.

People who gave at the request from TV evangelists, felt they were giving to God, they hit hard times, contacted the evangelists for help and got nothing in return.

These are just some of the rich pastors, where money only goes one way, into 'their' fellowship channels.

Bless you

 

[Brother-Paul]

Churches won't survive in this culture without money. Church people gather together in buildings of some sort -- requiring utilities / light , water, gas. The pastor needs to be paid -- his family needs a place to live and food to eat and transportation. And a good church will be supporting missions both foreign and local.

Back a few months ago -- a person needs employment -- the person Will pray about getting a job / income -- but Without going out and aggresively Looking for that job -- it Won't come to your doorstep knocking.

Back some years ago a church Did try the approach to make it known that there were two places in the church where people could place their offering Rather than sending the offering plate around. Just to see what would happen.
After a few weeks, they found that people Needed to be reminded to give. People Tend to be lazy with their finances. There Are those who will give to help support church expenses. But lots Won't.

The churches I go to over the years have quarterly business meetings -- we can see in black and white where church finances stand.

Some churches have their congregants do pledges every year.

Greeting Sue,

No one would begrudge giving for the ekklesia, which includes the pastor. Having a building to go to to worship is a choice, in many cases a luxury, but the early church wasn't like that, they met in each others homes. The fellowship of the church, the ekklesia, have inherited places from past congregations. Nothing wrong in it, it is easy to see why churches 'kuriakons' were built, but we also have to accept the overheads,.

All that is fine, but the next part I mention I think not.

It is not right, I believe, when churches are encouraged to give, for this or for that, and from the heart they do, but the higher church, institutionalised, that gets 59% of it's worth from congregation giving are worth a staggering 400 million GBP.

I appreciate some of that with is inherited assets, but with such high values in times when people are in poverty, living from food banks etc it is not right.

What would Jesus say?

 

[Sue D.]

I used to think that the Apostle Paul was proud by stating , " i am the worst of sinners " . But i really understand that .

I am not wrong when i tell you , pride is the faith killer . And anyone can get it .

I hope you never experience it

The dark night of the soul is a rough ride

Remember, Moses almost lost heaven out of pride, he hit the rock twice.

Pride in his heart dethroned Lucifer and he ended up as satan. WE Are redemable.

 

[Trevor]

I used to think that the Apostle Paul was proud by stating , " i am the worst of sinners " . But i really understand that .

I am not wrong when i tell you , pride is the faith killer . And anyone can get it .

I hope you never experience it

The dark night of the soul is a rough ride

Remember, Moses almost lost heaven out of pride, he hit the rock twice.

Hi Bill, When the Lord found me, I was lost. When I eventually gave my life to him, he made several promises, I will never leave you or forsake you; come to me all you who labour and I will give you rest; I will send you the helper and the counsellor. When I came to Jesus, I was on my knees, there was no pride. bless you

 

[Born Again 2004]

Satan was given much , he was a Prince in Heaven . But he became proud.

Many of those who went through the " renewal " of the 70's and 80's also became proud

Just because a person has the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is no guarantee. Just look at Judas . Scripture says Jesus gave them ( Apostles ) the authority to cast out demons and heal people . Jesus said thier names were written in Heaven. And still Judas rejects Jesus ( something he chose to do ) and was rejected by God

You said it,"still Judas rejects"...before the foundation, God knew his choice! HE gave Judas the power to cast out demons, but he rejected Jesus...Christ didn't give the Holy Spirit until the "Day of Pentecost ", Judas was dead...
Please show scripture where Judas received the Holy Spirit and I will change my mind, about this Traitor.
BLESSINGS

 

[Bill]

Pride in his heart dethroned Lucifer and he ended up as satan. WE Are redemable.

I never said we were not redemable . What i did say is pride is the faith killer

 

[Bill]

You said it,"still Judas rejects"...before the foundation, God knew his choice! HE gave Judas the power to cast out demons, but he rejected Jesus...Christ didn't give the Holy Spirit until the "Day of Pentecost ", Judas was dead...
Please show scripture where Judas received the Holy Spirit and I will change my mind, about this Traitor.
BLESSINGS

Is our God not One ? Jesus gave Judas the ability to cast out demons, to heal people. He gave them a sampling, if you will, of the Holy Spirit. This is exactly the same thing that happened to the Israelites during the time of Moses. Jesus had not been revieled yet, but the rock that followed the Israelites around in the desert was Jesus

 

[Trevor]

You said it,"still Judas rejects"...before the foundation, God knew his choice! HE gave Judas the power to cast out demons, but he rejected Jesus...Christ didn't give the Holy Spirit until the "Day of Pentecost ", Judas was dead...
Please show scripture where Judas received the Holy Spirit and I will change my mind, about this Traitor.
BLESSINGS

Hi Born again, forgive me for butting in on a conversation, I believe Jesus knew the heart of Judas from the start and he knew and in a way instigated the betrayal. They were all having a meal around the table and Jesus told them that one of them was going to betray him. it wasn't until Jesus broke the bread and gave it to Judas, that Satan entered Judas, it was almost as though he was waiting for permision. Just a thought

 

[Bill]

Hi Born again, forgive me for butting in on a conversation, I believe Jesus knew the heart of Judas from the start and he knew and in a way instigated the betrayal. They were all having a meal around the table and Jesus told them that one of them was going to betray him. it wasn't until Jesus broke the bread and gave it to Judas, that Satan entered Judas, it was almost as though he was waiting for permision. Just a thought

Many people believe Judas was destined to betrey Jesus . But there is a problem with this philosophy . All though scripture God teaches us about free will . If indeed Judas was predestined to betrey , what does that say about free will . It just puts all God teaches in the toilet.

What makes scripture interesting , with free will . John the Baptist along with everyone else i.e. Moses , all did what They did , in free will as well.

Moses as being a great example here. Even alfer all the crazyness , Piller of Cloud , Piller of Fire , parting of the Red Sea . He still chooses disobedience to God by striking the rock 2 x.

Free Will .

So when we look at Judas , who at one time cast out demons and healed people . Who Jesus states ' your names are written in Heaven' Judas still chose to betrey Jesus .

Dont we still choose to betrey Jesus each time we sin .

And Paul who understood the resault of sin , who was given so much, called himself the worst of sinners.

 

[Born Again 2004]

Is our God not One ? Jesus gave Judas the ability to cast out demons, to heal people. He gave them a sampling, if you will, of the Holy Spirit. This is exactly the same thing that happened to the Israelites during the time of Moses. Jesus had not been revieled yet, but the rock that followed the Israelites around in the desert was Jesus

Very true.
Jesus gave all the
Disciples the power to heal and cast out demons but it wasn't until His last discourse with them that He promuse He would send the Holy
Spirit once He left, Judas was already gone.

 

[Bill]

Very true.
Jesus gave all the
Disciples the power to heal and cast out demons but it wasn't until His last discourse with them that He promuse He would send the Holy
Spirit once He left, Judas was already gone.

Judas was Only gone , when Judas chose to commit to the evil .

 

[Trevor]

Many people believe Judas was destined to betrey Jesus . But there is a problem with this philosophy . All though scripture God teaches us about free will . If indeed Judas was predestined to betrey , what does that say about free will . It just puts all God teaches in the toilet.

What makes scripture interesting , with free will . John the Baptist along with everyone else i.e. Moses , all did what They did , in free will as well.

Moses as being a great example here. Even alfer all the crazyness , Piller of Cloud , Piller of Fire , parting of the Red Sea . He still chooses disobedience to God by striking the rock 2 x.

Free Will .

So when we look at Judas , who at one time cast out demons and healed people . Who Jesus states ' your names are written in Heaven' Judas still chose to betrey Jesus .

Dont we still choose to betrey Jesus each time we sin .

And Paul who understood the resault of sin , who was given so much, called himself the worst of sinners.

You say we have free will Bill, but if that is the case and we have the freedom to obey the law, then a strong man would, with that free will, be able to obey the law and demand access into heaven as the right through obedience. Who would need Jesus? Paul put paid to that, and explained, that because of the fall, we inherited Adam's sin and that sin is a law (the law of sin and death) and that can only be overcome by the law of Grace. We are given the Grace to overcome and the glory goes to God, not us. We don't choose to sin, it's in our nature, that's why we need salvation. Before we are saved our sin leads to death. After our redemption our sin humbles us and is used to hone us into the people God would have us be. As Paul lamented "what a wretched man I am, who will rescue me from this body of death." This is Saul the pharisse of pharissees, proudly persecuting the believers. But in the hands of the Spirit, he is shown his true state. As for Judas, yes he was a thief but would he have betrayed Jesus if Satan himself hadn't been allowed to enter him? bless you.

 

[B-A-C]

We don't choose to sin, it's in our nature, that's why we need salvation. Before we are saved our sin leads to death.

It leads to death after you are saved also.

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

We didn't have the power to overcome sin before we were saved. That's why we need salvation.

Rom 6:17; But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18; and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Without free will, you cannot be obedient. We now have the power to resist sin if we want to.
Every single time we sin, it's because we choose to.

1Pet 2:24; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

1Jn 3:9; No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

You say sin is human nature, we were born into this sinful nature, and you are right. That's why we need to be "born again"
out of that human (sinful) nature.

 

[Trevor]

It leads to death after you are saved also.

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

We didn't have the power to overcome sin before we were saved. That's why we need salvation.

Rom 6:17; But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18; and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Without free will, you cannot be obedient. We now have the power to resist sin if we want to.
Every single time we sin, it's because we choose to.

1Pet 2:24; and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed.

1Jn 3:9; No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

You say sin is human nature, we were born into this sinful nature, and you are right. That's why we need to be "born again"
out of that human (sinful) nature.

Hi B-A-C, Are you telling me you are sinless?