Female Preaching

[sergent]

So this has been something that has been some what of a mystery to me. I know 1 Timothy 2:11-12 says"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet", but does this mean that women cannot preach period? Or does it mean they cannot hold the position of pastor?? I am honestly confused and your input would be greatly appreciated.

God Bless

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Greetings @sergent

This recent thread may be very useful to you

http://www.talkjesus.com/bible-study-hall/44925-should-women-pastors-elders.html

Bless you

 

[amadeus2]

So this has been something that has been some what of a mystery to me. I know 1 Timothy 2:11-12 says"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet", but does this mean that women cannot preach period? Or does it mean they cannot hold the position of pastor?? I am honestly confused and your input would be greatly appreciated.

God Bless

What is a pastor other than a shepherd, a keeper of sheep? What was Rachel in this verse?

"And while he yet spake with them, Rachel came with her father's sheep: for she kept them." Gen 29:9

 

[spirit1st]

God gives us All a ministry and in our Spirit which is the child of God. we are All equal.
In the flesh we are different.
but the Spirit is much higher than the flesh.

2Co_3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Gal_3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.


Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

God can and does use any He wants too at any time for whatever He wants done.

there been many great women in the bible.

I can listen to a child if they are speaking truth .

Listen we need to get our relationship right with the LORD .Instead of looking for faults we think in others.

We need to be led by the Holy Ghost and not our flesh thinking.
satan tried to use scriptures against our LORD. he does it with us also.

We can learn from anyone who LOVES the LORD and is being led by the HOLY GHOST. God will use who is willing ?

 

[farout]

So this has been something that has been some what of a mystery to me. I know 1 Timothy 2:11-12 says"Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet", but does this mean that women cannot preach period? Or does it mean they cannot hold the position of pastor?? I am honestly confused and your input would be greatly appreciated.

God Bless

sergent: This is a rather controversial subject, and in some denominations it is a dogmatic no and others will say a solid yes. There are all kinds of adaptations that different churches allow women to be in the pulpit for. Even among women there are different opinions about women pastors, and women preaching, and teaching men.

Our culture clearly has women that are very well educated, and in every occupation and position that any man can have. Yet in some churches especially fundamentalist churches, women are restricted from having any ressemblance of having any authority over a man, this would be especially so in a teaching position. Needless to say that for the fundamentalist women there is limited places of service in the church, except for that which is with other women. Women iin fundamentalist churches would live strictly by that verse in 1 timothy 2:11-12.

A personal view of Scripture has much to do with how men treat women, and how husbands treat their wife. It is most important for women to find a husband wog agrees with their view of how a woman should be treated and treasured, before engagement. All too often women marry without fully know how a man really believes women should behave in church, and how she can serve.

I personally believe a woman can be ordained, and serve in any position except for that of a Pastor. I have had much disagreement with my position, and it saddens me. Women are to be treated as equal, and where the Bible says a woman is the weaker one it means the more tender one, in my humble opinion.

 

[WaterRock]

While doing some studying the reference of the term "Men" referenced in the Declaration, I reviewed some scriptures that came to mind during the process:

[1] This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;[2] Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day whenthey were created. Genesis:5

If one defines "Men" by the flesh, then obviously the male gender would be the "Men", however, what about the spirit? Since the scriptures indicate that we are spirits dwelling in the flesh, so what gender is our spirit except it be of God.

While in verse 1, it doesn't mention the female, unless the spirit of the male and the spirit of the female were one in the same. However, in the 2nd verse, God calls both the male and the female Adam. And as we see the Spirit by our spirit, do we not also hear Him also by our Spirit?

Now going to 1 Tim 2:13-15
13For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
So if the spirit is Adam, being the single male and single female, do they become Eve when the marry? It says the two shall become one. Which leads to the marriage of the Lamb,
Obviously, the reproductive process is physically manifested by the male and female, yet are we closing the fountain for our children to the living waters with marriages to each other and not
not as one with Him?14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceivedwas in the transgression.
If Adam being the male and female were not deceived, but being married were the Bride that became defiled by the transgression the next verse
15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, ifthey continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
the "they" is what I find interesting, so she shall be saved- "the male and female" but then arises the question about that blessed anointing on the child, is it lost, not that the child is cursed or anything but rather
the Lamb is unable to fulfill the promise of the Blessing?

 

[Boanerges]

There are obviously different views on this. In my eyes (only my opinion) I view the subject through this lens:

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

In and of myself I can do nothing; when I put on Christ I can do anything He calls me to. If the Holy Spirit moves upon a lady to share or teach who am I to argue with Him?
Again, this is only my view and those who disagree with me have that right; afterall this has been debated for centuries.

 

[spirit1st]

Here the problem as I see it . Few Men are preaching the new testament . most are trying to mix the Old with the new and are failing the LORD.
because the either refuse to preach the truth or just do not understand it ?
so God must turn to whoever will preach the truth ? \

 

[farout]

Here the problem as I see it . Few Men are preaching the new testament . most are trying to mix the Old with the new and are failing the LORD.
because the either refuse to preach the truth or just do not understand it ?
so God must turn to whoever will preach the truth ? \

Unless we understand the Old Testament, much of what the New testamnet is saying the believer only gets a incomplete understanding. Hebrews is so much nore richer if we have a basis of the Old Testament to fully grasp what the author is saying. ALLof the Bible is the authoritive without error WORD of YAHWEH. In my very loud opinion too many lazy preachers leave out tiying the WORD of YAHWEH together ! When we devide the OLD TESTAMENT from the NEW TESTAMENT you have a ignorant christian who does not understand how YAHWEH worked with the people then and how HE continues to work today. For instance the Ten Commandments are still ineffect today, But many christians will argue that they no longer have any authority, it's just not so.

There is a proper way to tie both TESTAMENTS together, and unless we do we have a incorrect understanding of for instance creation, just to mention one major thing. Then where did man come from, and so forth.

 

[B-A-C]

Here the problem as I see it . Few Men are preaching the new testament . most are trying to mix the Old with the new and are failing the LORD.
because the either refuse to preach the truth or just do not understand it ?
so God must turn to whoever will preach the truth ? \

Sadly, I have to agree here.
Still I don't think it's God's preference for women to lead a church.

1 Cor 11:3; But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.

1 Cor 14:34; The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
1 Cor 14:35; If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.

1 Tim 2:11; A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
1 Tim 2:12; But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
1 Tim 2:13; For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
1 Tim 2:14; And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

One of the big differences between "most" men and "most" women is that men make decisions based on logic. ( The logic may not always be correct, however...)
Women usually make decisions based on emotions. ( The reason they feel a certain emotion may not always make sense or be logical )

Still sometimes men don't step up and take the lead. They let their wives do it. To me, this is a sin.
God does use women in the church, there is certainly nothing wrong with women preaching and teaching under some circumstances.
A woman can teach children, a woman can teach other women, a woman can do various ministries (music, church secretarial work, etc...)
But I don't believe it's God design for a woman to ever lead a church. (Or a country... for Hillary Clinton supporters)

We are all children of God, there is man or woman, or Jew or Greek, we are all equally valuable to God, but he makes it clear some have different areas of authority.

 

[B-A-C]

Here the problem as I see it . Few Men are preaching the new testament . most are trying to mix the Old with the new and are failing the LORD.

Hmmm.. interesting point of view. Keep in mind when Jesus and disciples were on the earth, there was ONLY the old testament.

Matt 21:42; Jesus *said to them, "Did you never read in the Scriptures, 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF CORNER stone; THIS CAME ABOUT FROM THE LORD, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES'?
Matt 22:29; But Jesus answered and said to them, "You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Matt 26:54; "How then will the Scriptures be fulfilled, which say that it must happen this way?"
Matt 26:56; "But all this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures of the prophets." Then all the disciples left Him and fled.
Mark 12:24; Jesus said to them, "Is this not the reason you are mistaken, that you do not understand the Scriptures or the power of God?
Mark 14:49; "Every day I was with you in the temple teaching, and you did not seize Me; but this has taken place to fulfill the Scriptures."
Luke 24:27; Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Luke 24:32; They said to one another, "Were not our hearts burning within us while He was speaking to us on the road, while He was explaining the Scriptures to us?"
Luke 24:45; Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures,
John 5:39; "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;

It's my personal opinion, If you don't know the Old Testament, you don't really know God or Jesus.
It seems that 3/4th's of the Bible don't apply to some 'Christians'. I wonder sometimes... do people believe there are two different God's in the Bible?
Is there a God of the Old Testament, and a God of the New Testament, or are they the same God? If they are the same God, why wouldn't you want to know everything about him?

If you're worried some preach the law as a means of salvation, fine. But the law is only the first 5 books.

 

[spirit1st]

Yep Jesus was born in the old testament under the law. He dies to become the new testament changing the law and priesthood.

Everyone died under the old testament 100% Everyone lives eternally under the new testament 100% .

Of course Only those who accept the New testament are part of the Kingdom.

We are Not under the 10 commandments . They were in part just as the old testament was in part.
If you broke one commandment , you broke them all 100% !

That why the Jews stumbled at the New Commandments. The New laws are LOVE and Faith . The new Priesthood is Judah. .
The ten commandments were perfect for the old testament but not for the new. They were in part.

Under the old laws there was no life no hope of salvation only death to one and all.

2Co_3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Because it killed all 100%

Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;


Rom_14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

Gal_3:12 And the law is not of faith:

Gal_3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal_3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Heb_7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

What are the new laws ? Love and Faith .

2Ti_1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
1Th_5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Ti_1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Eph_3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
1Ti_1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

Those are the Only two laws He writes in our Heart . LOVE and Faith.

We need to understand , when the New Testament , The new covenant begin?

Under the old covenant ,there was no hope for any person. Under the New covenant ,All mankind has hope .

We can All have salvation if we want it .


Rom_4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:


Rom_6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom_7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Rom_8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

1Co_15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal_4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal_4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?


Gal_5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Heb_7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Heb_7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

Heb_7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


Heb_10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb_10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

people still want to teach the law to gain money and workers because they do not understand ?People will give all even there lives for LOVE. The law was Force . Love is given freely and too all .

 

[love_yeshua]

It doesn't get more straightforward than this. Women are not supposed to preach. I don't see why women even want to, honestly. Why not sit and just listen? It's not difficult to do. The only women who should speak to the congregation are prophetesses who have a message given by Elohim, and what they do is stand up, deliver the message, and then sit down. Not preach.

I can appreciate why the Bible says this. A lot of females I know, like to bring in emotional arguments when it comes to scriptures and just about everything else. But we need to understand, obeying Elohim's commandments is not about emotion. If it plainly states, "do this" or "don't do that", then we just follow it. Without making emotional arguments. The Bible never said women are not smart enough to preach, or to be heads of households. Look at Joyce Meyer, she's clearly very good, but she is breaking a fundamental commandment by preaching. It simply says that these things are not part of our job or role as females. Very simple.

[h=3]1 Timothy 2:11-12[/h]
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.



[h=3]1 Corinthians 14:34-36[/h]
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

 

[Fenn]

I find it disheartening to see that this is such an issue among male and female alike. The Bible is clear about it. Women are not called to be heads of the church nor heads of the family. Does that make them less? Never.

1 Corinthians 12
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:


I suggest reading the whole chapter. As for the reasoning being that the males are not preaching anything but the old testament, so women should step up. No. Women were created in a different role. They are a different part of the body. I know this passage is about spiritual gifts, but this is how God works. Everyone is equal in value, but roles are specific.

 

[spirit1st]

In the flesh we are the stronger ones and God holds us responsible to protect and help the woman. In the Spirit man we are 100% equal . God can use any of us walking in our spirit. These women who are preaching have great spiritual understanding . They could only get it from the Holy Ghost.
God just does not want women LORDING over men. We need to understand the Spiritual from the carnal .
That why many men look down on women and even mistreat them and force them to do whatever as if they nothing or less?

Every woman born into GOD kingdom is just as much as any man born into HIS kingdom . God can use a rock or a donkey or anything . Why can He not use a woman ?

Listen few men are preaching the truth . Most women He calls will . Women born of GOD have everything we have except they dwell in a weaker body. And God also called us to be the spiritual leaders of our homes and protectors of our wives and families.

You cannot beat a Godly woman to help a man. She will work hard at serving the LORD and praying for the Man and doing all she can to please the Lord and Her husband. Everyone of us are called to preach HIS gospel and plant seeds of truth .

There are women who have no business preaching and are. and there are others He called to preach and are.

I watch Joyce Myers , She has a lot of Spiritual understanding and it can only come from the HOLY GHOST. But she mostly preaches to women. But i do see some men also at Her meeting.
I have no problem with it.
Rather listen to Her and lots of men preachers I hear . My problem is My own life. It not judging all others . It just keeping me where I should be for my LORD JESUS .

God does not need me judging all others and what they are doing for the Lord or Not?
I am a full time job . I try Not to judge others person lives. It between the LORD and them.

If I feel the need ? Then I just pray for them and ask the LORD to have His perfect will in there lives .

We tend to want to judge all the carnal things as if they are the most important? and forget the Spiritual things as if they are less than the carnal things?

Some of these women lead more people to the Lord in a week than most of us do in a full life time. And that is a eternal work .
We need to pray for anyone who doing eternal works .That the most important thing we can do on the earth . Lead others to salvation.

 

[jean]

I am a local preacher in the (English) Methodist church and believe my calling is to help our minister who is over nine albeit small churches! Some of the people who have made great changes to the world (never mind the church) have been women. Queen Elizabeth the first of England, our present Queen Elizabeth the second (a Christian) Margaret Thatcher a British Prime Minister, Golda Meyer of Israel......if God anoints these and many, many other women to lead countries, as well as organisations and businesses I can't for the life of me think why God wouldn't approve of a women preacher! I am convinced He called me, it's not something I would have chosen to do myself, it's not an easy road and the rewards for a local preacher are definitely not material! We are not living in the country or culture that the apostle Paul lived in and the world changes. If a woman or man prove themselves faithful, committed and sincere and pass the course and exams set, then I see no reason to deny them to opportunity to serve the church and God in this way.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

I can't for the life of me think why God wouldn't approve of a women preacher! I am convinced He called me, it's not something I would have chosen to do myself, it's not an easy road and the rewards for a local preacher are definitely not material! We are not living in the country or culture that the apostle Paul lived in and the world changes.

Greetings @jean

The world changes, people change

But the Lord does not change
And His word is steadfast and true

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1 Timothy 2:11

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1 Corinthians 14:34-36

 

[Fenn]

The world changes, people change

But the Lord does not change
And His word is steadfast and true

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1 Timothy 2:11

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1 Corinthians 14:34-36

Again I am not understanding the other viewpoint. We have been called judgmental and yet God has been the one to say how He wanted the church to be. If we believe the Word of God is infallible, then why do we fight it?
@spirit1st ; @jean

Did God want His people to have a king over them? Did God want people to have a divorce? No.
Did He allow them? Yes.
God can take our mistakes and still accomplish His will. Look at David and Bathsheba. He took David's mistake and was still able to bring about His glory.
So, I will say maybe God is calling you to something else and you are misinterpreting it, just as other women may be doing the same by leading the churches. However, good results may still come in spite of it. The good results are God's will and He will call people to Himself.
This does not mean women are less. I hate when people say that. If you do not have the gift of miracles or healing are you any less than those that do? No. It is our hearts and our faith to follow through with God's word that bring Him glory on all levels. Not just the large.

 

[james1523]

Do we really think that every person who says " God told me to start a preaching ministry", God really told them that?
In the church the apostles were leading, and the elders. So no individual woman, or man, could make a claim to fame on the basis of "God told me". I know of a few female preachers, and they feel God led them to the ministry, but if the apostle Paul was here today, he would not have allowed it. We should try to respect God's government in His kingdom, regardless of whether we are good at something or not. There is this mistaken view that if you're good at something, God wants you to use that for His purpose. Often the opposite is true, if you are not good at something, God is going to ask you to do that, because then it will be to His glory and with His power not our own. A woman being better at preaching than a man, is beside the point. For preaching I believe God would rather use a poor speaking man, than a great speaking woman. And the women who say "the men aren't doing their jobs, so we women must replace them or take over", maybe should check their hearts, or why not pray for and support the man so he will be better? Isn't that what the word "helper" means, in the context of God creating the woman.

 

[amadeus2]

I am a local preacher in the (English) Methodist church and believe my calling is to help our minister who is over nine albeit small churches! Some of the people who have made great changes to the world (never mind the church) have been women. Queen Elizabeth the first of England, our present Queen Elizabeth the second (a Christian) Margaret Thatcher a British Prime Minister, Golda Meyer of Israel......if God anoints these and many, many other women to lead countries, as well as organisations and businesses I can't for the life of me think why God wouldn't approve of a women preacher! I am convinced He called me, it's not something I would have chosen to do myself, it's not an easy road and the rewards for a local preacher are definitely not material! We are not living in the country or culture that the apostle Paul lived in and the world changes. If a woman or man prove themselves faithful, committed and sincere and pass the course and exams set, then I see no reason to deny them to opportunity to serve the church and God in this way.

Probably the wrong comparisons for your argument... but...

As the natural women is to receive the seed of the man to bear natural children, so is the spiritual woman to receive the spiritual seed of man to bear spiritual children. Consider in this Paul's written words:

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, thereis neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal 3:28

There is a male role and a female role. In the Church, the male is the presenter of the Word (the seed via the preacher or testifier, etc.) and the female is the Church that listens "silently" and receives. Any natural man or natural women who silently listens and receives is the spiritual woman. Any natural man or natural woman who presents the Word is the spiritual man. Jesus was the Man and all of the listeners were the Woman. Jesus is the Head while the Church is theBody (of Christ).

Mary the natural mother of Jesus fits into this pattern as well. God is the Father and Mary is the Mother. The offspring are of the kind that we are intended to have... God is the perfect Father. Mary is human, but unspoiled by a flawed man.

In the "real"world of churches, the preacher when he is presenting the Word is the as theFather, but actually, as we know, he misses the mark many times in many places. But... the same is true of the Woman who is supposed to listen and receive silently, but actually is too often not silent and is critical even when the Preacher is not missing it. Error on both parts but an ideal pattern exists ifwe are able to see it and to replicate it.