Female Preaching

[Fenn]

It Always the correct understanding that counts. Our carnal thinking does Not always give us the correct understanding. I admit many lean on there own understanding and do not come to the correct understanding.

Rev_19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The word of God is for Men and Women and children. It Not less for Women than men . Because we are All counted Equal in our Spirit man who is the child of God. The flesh is different and much much Less and Not eternal .

The Question becomes? can the Spirit of the person who is equal no matter what kind of weak dying flesh they are born into be used for GOD purposes or Not?

If we look at it carnally NO
If we look at it Spiritually YES.

God has a Perfect will and a Permissive will.
I do not think it God perfect will for women to teach . But in His permissive will They could.

Ok let us assume permissive will. If you have the choice of being in His perfect will or His permissive will, then which will you choose? Of course you will choose His perfect will. So, when the question is asked "What are your thoughts on women preaching?" Should we not go to the word and start from His perfect will?

I Do not think all these women preaching are called of God to preach . But i do believe God using some to Preach and teach and raise the dead and cast out devils and heal the sick. Certainly More than I have ever done.

How could they know so much and be so faithful and doing these works without His will in it?

And I know the scripture where some are going to say I done all this and He will say I never knew you.

but the ones I am speaking of are walking in the Power of the Holy Ghost and are taught by Him.

There has been some great women of God though the ages I am sure. Of course I believe He can use anyone any way.

Of course God can use whomever He chooses. We can in no way put a boundary in front of God. However, God has given us His word and we are to use His word to tests things in this world. God can use a sinner to bring the word to a non-believer.
There was a homeless man who was making fun of a Christian and making fun of the word of God that the Christian had used. The other homeless men laughed, but one was convicted and ran to the Salvation Army and was saved.
The word of God is truth. The homeless man spoke the truth. This does not make him fit for leading a church.
There have been great women and there have been women who have done great things. This is true. There have been great sinners who have done great things. This does not make one fit for leading a church.
So, you know the verses
Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

It a Spiritual battle with Spiritual warriors Not men or women but Spiritual beings used by God for His purpose. It does not matter what kind of body they dwell in for the short time here.
Joh_6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

This is for all those New Creations , New Creatures . Because None are Men and Women.

. Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
They are Not Of this world.

Joh_17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh_17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Joh_17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Personally I have no problem listening to anyone who has spiritual trues. I love hearing truth. I could listen to a child or woman or of course a man.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Rom_8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
GOd calls all those who dwell in women type bodies and those who dwell in man type bodies or kids who dwell in little bodies all SONS of GOD 100% the Elect. His Kings and Priests Forever more.

When I hear truth I welcome it. Who cannot, except those who hate God?
But truth can be found from many places. To lie well one must put at least a seed of truth in it.
I see that 1 Cor. 2:14 is a reference to discernment. Yes, a natural man cannot understand the spiritual and never will, only when he give up the natural for the spiritual and becomes transformed.
As a spiritual man I check things against scripture. If it doesn't coincide with scripture, then it must not be God's original intent. If it is not God's original intent, then we should not defend it nor strive for it. Therefore, finding women preaching not lining up with God's word, I do not defend it nor strive for it.

John 14
21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Do you believe that the Bible is 100% true and that all of it is God inspired and God's word? If so, then how can we teach and be in agreement with anything else. By His own words we must keep His words and His commandments.

It ok if you see it a bit different . I still Love you and thank God your here posting.





I am No more than you or anyone else in His true unseen church and Body .Just might see things a bit different? We are All equal in Him None greater or Less.

Yes, spirit1st, we see things different. As long as we both have professed Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, and we both make this claim, then we are brothers. Brothers can disagree in love and nothing shall separate us. None of us is above and none of us has anything to boast in, besides boasting in the Lord.
I pray that we can keep things as peaceful as we have. That is the only way to really discuss God's word and intent, with love and patience.

 

[jean]

Fragrant Grace, Be in agreement by all means but accept that Christ's family is very, very large and very diverse, we are too accept one another in love unless.......biblical teaching is heretical i.e. we deny the Lordship of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit to change a person.
Women who take up preaching or pastorship roles are taking up feminism
The woman is denying the order of God as set out in the scriptures
That is a very sweeping statement and not all female preachers/ministers or priest are feminists by any means and I know quite a few!
Feminism is of the devil. It is the woman saying I want to be equal with man in the church in the same way that lucifer coveted equality with God and wanted to change the Lord's order.
WOW talk about putting women off church!! That would certainly put quite a few I know off Christianity never mind church, where in the world does that statement come from. Lucifer may have fallen because of pride, but women don't (all) enter the ministry from pride or for personal gain ! [/COLOR]
[/COLOR]A women is called to have a meek and quiet spirit.This is not the case if she is standing at a pulpit or on a platform speaking, teaching or preaching.
A quiet and meek spirit is part of a persons character it doesn't apply to preaching, wasn't Jesus supposed to have a quiet and meek spirit (although on occasion he got very angry!)

 

[Fenn]

Thank you Fenn for clearing that up (regarding backing up statements with scripture) and I do hope I caused no offence by mentioning a fundamentalist, because I have been called one, it's all relative I suppose. I attend a Methodist church and have done for 12 years but I was baptised into the faith in a Charismatic Pentecostal church in South Africa 22 years ago.
I mentioned a woman asking her husband 'spiritual' stuff at home as you brought up the subject in your previous post and I am married to an unbeliever. Although we were both unbelievers when we married I became a born again, spirit filled believer after 22 years of married life which my husband found extremely difficult, but you or should I say, the bible is of course right. Divorce wasn't an option, but God's grace is amazing as he works out His purposes for each persons life.

We obviously must agree to differ on the point of women preachers but as indeed within marriage when a couple disagree, we still love each other, support each other and rely on God's grace to guide and keep us. Thank you for your replies and your biblical knowledge I appreciate it.

I haven't taken offense. I am often referred to as square or legalistic, but the truth is that I love God's word and the absolute truth it has. I am not perfect and I don't always follow it. When I fail I try not to justify it, but to reconcile with God. This doesn't always happen, but I really want it to be that way.
We will disagree in this matter, but God is our Father and we can still share in His love. I don't need everyone to agree with me. Maybe I have misread or misinterpreted something, but the main thing is that our salvation does not depend on these disagreements.

I commend you for staying with your husband. That is a difficult thing as I have seen with others of both genders. It is not the desired way to be, but by producing spiritual fruit you are constantly witnessing to your husband. God will bless you and your husband for staying with him.
I am not very familiar with different denominations and I will have to look Methodist up. I am familiar with Pentecostal beliefs. I try not to get into issues with denominations as we have said earlier. If it has naught to do with salvation then it shall not separate us. Through God we are stronger than these things that come up.

 

[jean]

We would all surely love to be first and foremost in God's perfect will but we live a hostile world, hostile to the bible, to spiritual stuff unless it agrees with everything and anything at times and to be in God's permissive will is better than not being in His will? I have God's blessing on my work of this I am convinced because I was anointed by our Bishop and told in prophecy that I would do this work! Why me when my circumstances were so difficult, so that God could show His amazing grace, mercy and love and use me and my personality to show others how great, mighty and wonderful is God's love

Doesn't the church or churches in the U.S. have women preachers? Someone mentioned Joyce Meyer, she has a worldwide ministry and has touched many, many women (and men) and she uses her own life experiences to help others and draw them to the Lord.

Does the Methodist church in America have Local Preachers and if so are any of them women?

 

[jean]

Thank you Fenn, you are gracious, life is not easy but it wasn't meant to be God is in the character building business and our God is a great God who loves all equally, Again I apologise, I haven't conquered how this site works and it could take a while but I 'like' your last post God bless.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

Fragrant Grace, Be in agreement by all means but accept that Christ's family is very, very large and very diverse, we are too accept one another in love unless.......biblical teaching is heretical i.e. we deny the Lordship of Christ and the power of the Holy Spirit to change a person.
Women who take up preaching or pastorship roles are taking up feminism
The woman is denying the order of God as set out in the scriptures
That is a very sweeping statement and not all female preachers/ministers or priest are feminists by any means and I know quite a few!
Feminism is of the devil. It is the woman saying I want to be equal with man in the church in the same way that lucifer coveted equality with God and wanted to change the Lord's order.
WOW talk about putting women off church!! That would certainly put quite a few I know off Christianity never mind church, where in the world does that statement come from. Lucifer may have fallen because of pride, but women don't (all) enter the ministry from pride or for personal gain ! [/COLOR]
[/COLOR]A women is called to have a meek and quiet spirit.This is not the case if she is standing at a pulpit or on a platform speaking, teaching or preaching.
A quiet and meek spirit is part of a persons character it doesn't apply to preaching, wasn't Jesus supposed to have a quiet and meek spirit (although on occasion he got very angry!)

Feminism is women seeking to be equal with men

Women seek to be equal with men when they become pastors or preachers

This is clearly against the word of God (as scriptures in previous posts have stated)

 

[amadeus2]

1 Corinthians 14
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.


-----

This scripture very clearly shows that men and women are not the same. We are all equally saved, but we have different roles. Did they not have specific instructions for both slave and master in the Bible? Thus, both can be saved and have equal standing in the body of Christ, but both are not called to the same jobs.

Are the carnal roles and the spiritual roles the same? I do not believe so. Men have often attempted to equalize them, but the old carnal man is the dead one (male or female) while the new spiritual inner man is alive. I agree that a woman and a man are very different physically with different physical roles, but I doubt that men (both natural genders) have always correctly separated the two. The spiritual role is whatever God says that it is for the surrendered male or the surrendered female. We need to be led by the Holy Ghost, not by the doctrines that men have predetermined to be right or wrong.

Can we determine what the Holy Ghost us wants us to do by arguing about it? If we have the Holy Ghost in us, all we have to do surrender to rather than quench that Holy Spirit. One result of people being influenced too much by their old man is probably the existence of literally thousands sometimes diametrically opposed groups supposedly all based on the Bible. The Bible contains the Truth, but even the atheist has his interpretation of it. Most Christians, I believe, are at best a mixture of the ways of the old man and the new. This, of course, includes me.

The new man must be growing toward God, while the old man must be dying. The old man is dead anyway, but he is always fighting to win one more battle...

 

[Fenn]

Are the carnal roles and the spiritual roles the same? I do not believe so. Men have often attempted to equalize them, but the old carnal man is the dead one (male or female) while the new spiritual inner man is alive. I agree that a woman and a man are very different physically with different physical roles, but I doubt that men (both natural genders) have always correctly separated the two. The spiritual role is whatever God says that it is for the surrendered male or the surrendered female. We need to be led by the Holy Ghost, not by the doctrines that men have predetermined to be right or wrong.

Can we determine what the Holy Ghost us wants us to do by arguing about it? If we have the Holy Ghost in us, all we have to do surrender to rather than quench that Holy Spirit. One result of people being influenced too much by their old man is probably the existence of literally thousands sometimes diametrically opposed groups supposedly all based on the Bible. The Bible contains the Truth, but even the atheist has his interpretation of it. Most Christians, I believe, are at best a mixture of the ways of the old man and the new. This, of course, includes me.

The new man must be growing toward God, while the old man must be dying. The old man is dead anyway, but he is always fighting to win one more battle...

Is there carnal obedience and spiritual obedience to the Lord? Is not all obedience to the Lord spiritual? All decisions we make are spiritual and all aspects of our life are to include God. Thus, His instructions for us are to provide a way for a healthy spiritual life for us. It is the carnal world who wants gender equality in all aspects. Spiritually God has given different roles to each person. This is Biblical and has been posted many times. If every person is created for a different purpose and God has said that men and women have a different purpose, then why should we disagree with Him? It is not my words that you are disbelieving but His. Unless, as I have said in this thread multiple times, we are interpreting these passages differently. I feel from the responses that the interpretation is the same. Would God give instructions to the carnal, natural, man? No, His word and instructions are for how believers are to behave. We can ignore them, but as the world will disagree with me, we cannot deny that in God's word is absolute truth. If His word is not absolute truth in all aspects, then how can we trust any?

Different roles:
[h=3]1 Corinthians 12:12-18[/h]King James Version (KJV)

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.


If God has set the members as He sees fit, and it pleases Him, then who are we to change them? In this passage it doesn't mention male or female, but it shows that God has put everyone in a specific spot and He has done this with male and female. When a female takes on a different role, then she is disagreeing with God's placement. Just as when a man doesn't lead his home spiritually. Again, we are equal in salvation and value spiritually, we have not been given equal jobs.

 

[amadeus2]

Is there carnal obedience and spiritual obedience to the Lord? Is not all obedience to the Lord spiritual? All decisions we make are spiritual and all aspects of our life are to include God. Thus, His instructions for us are to provide a way for a healthy spiritual life for us. It is the carnal world who wants gender equality in all aspects. Spiritually God has given different roles to each person. This is Biblical and has been posted many times. If every person is created for a different purpose and God has said that men and women have a different purpose, then why should we disagree with Him? It is not my words that you are disbelieving but His. Unless, as I have said in this thread multiple times, we are interpreting these passages differently. I feel from the responses that the interpretation is the same. Would God give instructions to the carnal, natural, man? No, His word and instructions are for how believers are to behave. We can ignore them, but as the world will disagree with me, we cannot deny that in God's word is absolute truth. If His word is not absolute truth in all aspects, then how can we trust any?

For every person for every situation there is an answer? Cannot my answer, or your answer, or the answer of the lady pastor down the street can be different answers from God according to the part of the Body we are, or are to be and the situation we are presently in?.

Different roles:
1 Corinthians 12:12-18

King James Version (KJV)

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.


If God has set the members as He sees fit, and it pleases Him, then who are we to change them? In this passage it doesn't mention male or female, but it shows that God has put everyone in a specific spot and He has done this with male and female. When a female takes on a different role, then she is disagreeing with God's placement. Just as when a man doesn't lead his home spiritually. Again, we are equal in salvation and value spiritually, we have not been given equal jobs.

As you said, "as He sees fit, and it pleases Him"! If we are different Body parts why would we assume that the answer for each part is always the same for one as it is for the other? When the Holy Ghost speaks to one person's heart to open his mouth and say something and simultaneously tells to another person to listen, if they are both paying attention and are both obedient, then only one will be speaking, right?

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1
"...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak" Ecc 3:7

Who determines when we are to be silent and when we are to speak other than God? Is the Holy Ghost supposed to lead us? Will we be led always according to man's logic?

If I am wrong on this, then maybe it is me that is not paying attention. In that case pray that God will help me to pray more fervently and listen more closely to hear His voice.

Do any of us have all of the right answers all of the time? Are any of us overcomers yet as Jesus was an overcomer? I would answer, no, to both questions for me. But... He is not finished with me yet. He is still working on me.

 

[Fenn]

For every person for every situation there is an answer? Cannot my answer, or your answer, or the answer of the lady pastor down the street can be different answers from God according to the part of the Body we are, or are to be and the situation we are presently in?.



As you said, "as He sees fit, and it pleases Him"! If we are different Body parts why would we assume that the answer for each part is always the same for one as it is for the other? When the Holy Ghost speaks to one person's heart to open his mouth and say something and simultaneously tells to another person to listen, if they are both paying attention and are both obedient, then only one will be speaking, right?

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:" Ecc 3:1
"...a time to keep silence, and a time to speak" Ecc 3:7

Who determines when we are to be silent and when we are to speak other than God? Is the Holy Ghost supposed to lead us? Will we be led always according to man's logic?

If I am wrong on this, then maybe it is me that is not paying attention. In that case pray that God will help me to pray more fervently and listen more closely to hear His voice.

Do any of us have all of the right answers all of the time? Are any of us overcomers yet as Jesus was an overcomer? I would answer, no, to both questions for me. But... He is not finished with me yet. He is still working on me.

Do you believe the whole Bible is God's word? Do you believe it is true?

If so, then we have His words. I am not determining who is to be silent and when, He has shown us that in His word as posted here numerous times. Either you don't agree with the interpretation, in which case I would like to know, or you don't agree that we should follow the instructions in His word. The same word that says one body and many parts, the same word that gives different roles for the spiritual male and the spiritual female.
Please clarify your stance for me.

If we disagree with the interpretation, then that is something we can discuss. If you don't believe the whole Bible is God's word and is true then we will never agree.

 

[amadeus2]

You already know that I disagree with your interpretation:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

Those words apply to both of us. And then again...

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

As to the Word of God... it is alive. It is only alive by the quickening of it by the Holy Ghost in a person. Just reading it and drawing logical conclusions will not do it. I have seen atheists do a very good job of that and I believe that they were still wrong.

"[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

The written words in the Book are dead (or dormant, if you prefer) , until the Holy Spirit gives them Life in you, or me, or some other person.

 

[jean]

Feminism is women seeking to be equal with men

We are equal with men, Jesus made this so! I agree that some feminists have taken their cause too far, but then again, look at how men have tried to manipulate and control women in the past (and still do!) I think it's called the battle of the sexes. Jesus lifted women out of the bonds their culture held them in, he was totally counter-culture that's why he annoyed the elders of the Synagogue so! Being submissive (to husbands) does not mean being a doormat, we need discernment and Godly wisdom because (even) Christian men can be wrong at times, can they not?

Women seek to be equal with men when they become pastors or preachers

This is clearly against the word of God (as scriptures in previous posts have stated)

The way you state this, denigrates women and we are precious to Jesus, all of us!

 

[james1523]

Who was formed first, Adam or Eve?
If they are equal, why did not God create Eve at the same time as Adam?
Who was deceived, Adam or Eve?
If they are equal, why did satan tempt Eve and not Adam, or both at the same time? The answer is satan went after the weaker sex, and therefore on this basis men and women are not equal.
Please see this verse which says that Adam was not deceived:
1 Tim 2:14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.

Adam was made first, and Adam was not deceived, Eve was made second and was deceived. When satan approached Eve, Eve did not consult her head, Adam, but overstepped his authority.
Eve should have 'asked her husband at home', instead of talking to the serpent by herself.
That is why women cannot be leaders of a church or pastors.

 

[jean]

Who was formed first, Adam or Eve?
If they are equal, why did not God create Eve at the same time as Adam?
Who was deceived, Adam or Eve?
If they are equal, why did satan tempt Eve and not Adam, or both at the same time? The answer is satan went after the weaker sex, and therefore on this basis men and women are not equal.

We are all equal in CHRIST, Jesus forgives and lifts anyone who put their faith, hope and trust in Him. The Old Covenant made us all 'guilty' and all sinners, it's only in Christ that we are saved from our sin and pride. Men have used this argument to subject women into submission, we are to be partners and work together not with any one person being dominant over another. Of course if we are not in Christ this doesn't apply as both men and women will seek to dominate. Christ was 'a servant' king, this is our role also to be servants of Christ and the church.

 

[B-A-C]

Men have used this argument to subject women into submission, we are to be partners and work together not with any one person being dominant over another

True, there are men who bully women (some use scripture to do so, but many do it without scripture) but many women have lived in rebellion also. There are women who bully men also, perhaps not physically but there are other ways. I believe women can preach under certain circumstances, but I am interested in what your interpretation of certain verses might be?

1 Cor 11:3; But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ.
1 Cor 11:8; For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man;
1 Cor 11:9; for indeed man was not created for the woman's sake, but woman for the man's sake. ( Gen 2:18; )

1 Cor 14:34; The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says.
1 Cor 14:35; If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church.
1 Cor 14:36; Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only?

1 Tim 2:11; A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness.
1 Tim 2:12; But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
1 Tim 2:13; For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve.
1 Tim 2:14; And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

As for Golda Meir and Maggie Thatcher, they were both Prime ministers for their respective countries, but neither was the "leader" (queen, president, etc...) of their countries.
As for Elizabeth I and II, I'm sure they are/were great inspiration for many people. But here in the U.S. at least neither is particularly known for their "leadership" per se.
I'm sure we could both come up with examples of good women and bad men who are leaders, (in both the US as well as the UK).

Rom 13:1; Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God.
However I also believe that even immoral government leaders are established by God.

 

[spirit1st]

NONE of Us Can say How God going to use any part of His body. It has nothing to do with the flesh. God Can use anyone any time HE wants. He Not Bound by our dumb weak flesh.
Why worry about it? Can we change anything without His will being done?

What do We do about those leading 100s maybe 1000s maybe millions to the LORD? Say they should Not be doing this as we do little or nothing?
If God does not reveal too you to get involved in there ministry? Then do not worry about it . Keep your thoughts to your self or better still Pray about it . Ask Him to stop it if it Not His will or if it is Bless them more and use you too do more for His glory.

It ok to disagree , but we must be sure we are not fighting GOD ?

I am not going to put anyone down who doing eternal works .

 

[jean]

1 Corinthians 10 v 31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

These are also Paul’s words in 1 Corinthians, we must remember the whole (historical) context, where Paul was and what was happening in that church at Corinth at that time. Many had come from pagan backgrounds and all manner of influences were diluting the ‘glorious gospel’.

Men were having sex with their family members, women were acting like harlots! Paul is writing to encourage the church to remember what Christ has done for them and at what price! That means a lifestyle change, sometimes a drastic one so that those outside the church will see Christians as ‘born again’ and want what they have. Obviously something has gone sadly wrong here! That’s why Paul’s letters were written.

Paul is speaking to people of the 1st century church as a converted zealot from a Jewish background. Time and place, culture and context! If we read the whole of 1 Corinthians we can see that Paul also teaches on eating habits, dress and how to live generally.

Paul was a devout Jew, who attended the Synagogue but the ‘new Christian church’ which was being born took time to establish and grow. If we apply today what Paul said back then, women should still wear hats, cover their heads when praying and men shouldn’t. In some branches of the church women still do cover their heads but not many that I know of here in England, we are under grace not law!

As for Paul/Timothy using the phrase that it was Eve who sinned, does that mean that Adam did not! Adam was as guilty of transgressing against the Lord as was Eve as he disobeyed too, this is an age old argument for men ‘ruling’ the church and not allowing women to progress their God given gifts! As for God, he showed grace to both of them by clothing them.
Again, I say remember we are under grace and not law, legalism is as dangerous as liberal Christianity that accepts any/everything! Let everything be done decently and in order (1 Corinthians 14v40)
Let’s not forget perhaps the most famous chapter in Corinthians however…..13 I may be able to speak the languages of human beings and even of angels, but if I have no love, my speech is no more than a noisy gong or a clanging bell. 2 I may have the gift of inspired preaching; I may have all knowledge and understand all secrets; I may have all the faith needed to move mountains—but if I have no love, I am nothing. 3 I may give away everything I have, and even give up my body to be burned[a]—but if I have no love, this does me no good.

4 Love is patient and kind; it is not jealous or conceited or proud; 5 love is not ill-mannered or selfish or irritable; love does not keep a record of wrongs; 6 love is not happy with evil, but is happy with the truth. 7 Love never gives up; and its faith, hope, and patience never fail.

8 Love is eternal. There are inspired messages, but they are temporary; there are gifts of speaking in strange tongues, but they will cease; there is knowledge, but it will pass. 9 For our gifts of knowledge and of inspired messages are only partial; 10 but when what is perfect comes, then what is partial will disappear.

11 When I was a child, my speech, feelings, and thinking were all those of a child; now that I am an adult, I have no more use for childish ways. 12 What we see now is like a dim image in a mirror; then we shall see face-to-face. What I know now is only partial; then it will be complete—as complete as God's knowledge of me.

13 Meanwhile these three remain: faith, hope, and love; and the greatest of these is love.
(Good News Version )

 

[Fenn]

You already know that I disagree with your interpretation:

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

Those words apply to both of us. And then again...

"O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps." Jerem 10:23

As to the Word of God... it is alive. It is only alive by the quickening of it by the Holy Ghost in a person. Just reading it and drawing logical conclusions will not do it. I have seen atheists do a very good job of that and I believe that they were still wrong.

"[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

The written words in the Book are dead (or dormant, if you prefer) , until the Holy Spirit gives them Life in you, or me, or some other person.

I was seriously asking to be sure. There are a lot of people who do not believe the whole scripture is God's word. I was not being patronizing.

God's word is alive. His word brings understanding. How else can those who are lost be saved? How else can we check against false doctrine and false teachers? If the spirit does not match to the word, then it is a false spirit and not of God. I believe that God's word works on our spirits in conjunction with the Holy Spirit, but I also believe His word stands against logic, after all He created logic. This would be a different topic and maybe we should start it up.

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

Hebrews 4
12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Before they had the Holy Spirit in their hearts.
Psalm 119
130 The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

Psalm 19
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.

God is His Word. His Word is alive. His Word has worked on the hearts of man before the Holy Spirit was given to us.
John 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

---
As to interpreting that passage as if male and female are interchangeable roles. Is there precedence in other parts of the scripture that show this to be true? In everything that I have read, throughout the Bible, God has shown us as completely different and completely complementary creations. Both in the flesh and in the spirit. We are of equal value to Him and equal in His love, of this there is no doubt.

Do you believe that husband/wife are interchangeable roles?

Ephesians 5

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

1 Corinthians 11
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.


8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.


15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering.
16 But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

All throughout 1 Corinthians 11 and other parts of the New Testament and Old there is a difference between male and female. If the interpretation you have is to be true, then shouldn't the same interpretation work throughout the rest of the Bible?

Mark 3

24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.

I don't believe the Holy Spirit will go against God's own word. Thus, His word must be consistent throughout the whole Bible.

 

[Fenn]

NONE of Us Can say How God going to use any part of His body. It has nothing to do with the flesh. God Can use anyone any time HE wants. He Not Bound by our dumb weak flesh.
Why worry about it? Can we change anything without His will being done?

What do We do about those leading 100s maybe 1000s maybe millions to the LORD? Say they should Not be doing this as we do little or nothing?
If God does not reveal too you to get involved in there ministry? Then do not worry about it . Keep your thoughts to your self or better still Pray about it . Ask Him to stop it if it Not His will or if it is Bless them more and use you too do more for His glory.

It ok to disagree , but we must be sure we are not fighting GOD ?

I am not going to put anyone down who doing eternal works .

I agree with you brother. We must keep the tone of discussion loving. Keeping out of it the personal decisions and letting God's word work on our hearts and not the words of another. Sometimes the words of others, especially online, come off as haughty, arrogant, or all knowing. Satan is the accuser and only God knows our hearts. We must assume the best of each others posts. Just as Jean posted about me being a fundamentalist. At least she put the smiley and that helps the interpretation, but also the rest of her posts have been posted out of love. We may not agree on certain things, but I just imagine that she was really surprised by my response and may also have a little humor. This is fine. Other times it is hard for me to understand where another is coming from, and in this I pray that the Holy Spirit protects our hearts from the accuser and from false interpretation of others tones and words.

Colossians 3
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

That whole passage is a beautiful way to respond to one another and we should look to our own hearts before seeing the worst in another's posts.

With that in mind, I do think it is healthy to discuss with care and love.
Proverbs 27
17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

 

[Fragrant Grace]

This thread opened with a question as to whether women should preach or be pastors.

Although the Bible is very clear on this matter....today's worldly Christianity constantly dilutes God's word in an attempt to make it man pleasing rather than following the word.

The posts can then tend to go round in circles becoming repetitive attempting to defend against the word

I am closing this thread and asking Chad to review it. @Chad

This article which was posted on another similar thread clearly outlines and explains the scriptures related to this subject


Should Women Be Pastors and Elders?

by Matt Slick

In a social climate of complete equality in all things, the biblical teaching of only allowing men to be pastors and elders is not popular. Many feminist organizations denounce this position as antiquated and chauvinistic. In addition, many Christian churches have adopted the "politically correct" social standard and have allowed women pastors and elders in the church. But the question remains, is this biblical?

My answer to this question is, "No, women are not to be pastors and elders." Many may not like that answer, but it is, I believe, an accurate representation of the biblical standard. You make the decision after reading this paper.

First of all, women are under-appreciated and under-utilized in the church. There are many gifted women who might very well do a better job at preaching and teaching than many men. However, it isn't gifting that is the issue, but God's order and calling. What does the Bible say? We cannot come to God's word with a social agenda and make it fit our wants. Instead, we must change and adapt to what it says.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, the garden of Eden, and Adam and Eve. He put Adam in the garden and gave him the authority to name all the animals. Afterwards, God made Eve as a helper to Adam.1 This is an important concept because Paul refers to the order of creation in his epistle to Timothy when he discusses the relationship between men and women in the church context. Let's take a look.

"But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being quite deceived, fell into transgression," (1 Tim. 2:12-14 -- all quotes from the Bible are from the NASB).




This passage has several interesting areas of discussion, but for our purpose we will focus on authority. At the very least, there is an authority structure set up by God. The woman is not to have authority over the man in the church context. But this does not extend to the political/economic world. In the Old Testament Deborah was a judge in Israel over men. Also, in the New Testament, Phoebe played an important role in the church at Cenchrea (Romans 16). There is no doubt that women supported Paul in many areas and were great helpers in the church (Acts 2:17; 18:24-26; 21:8-9). But what Paul is speaking of in 1 Tim 2 is the relationship between men and women in the church structure, not in a social or political context.

When we look further at Paul's teachings we see that the bishop/overseer is to be the husband of one wife (1 Tim 3:2) who manages his household well and has a good reputation (1 Tim 3:4-5, 7). Deacons must be "men of dignity" (1 Tim 3:8). Paul then speaks of women in verse 11 and their obligation to receive instruction. Then in verse 12, Paul says "Let deacons be husbands of one wife..." Again, in Titus 1:5-7, Paul says, "For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might set in order what remains, and appoint elders in every city as I directed you, namely, if any man be above reproach, the husband of one wife, having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion. For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward..." Notice that Paul interchanges the word 'elder' and 'overseer'.

In each case, the one who is an elder, deacon, bishop, or overseer is instructed to be male. He is the husband of one wife, responsible, able to "exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict" (Titus 1:9). We see no command for the overseers to be women. On the contrary, women are told to be "dignified, not malicious gossips, but temperate, faithful in all things" (1 Tim 3:11). Why is it that it is the men who are singled out as the overseers? It is because of the created order of God that Paul references (Gen 1-2; 1 Tim 2:12-14). This is not merely a social custom that fell away with ancient Israel.

Additionally, in the Old Testament in over 700 mentions of priests, every single one was a male. There is not one instance of a female priest. This is significant because priests were ordained by God to hold a very important office of ministering the sacrifices. This was not the job of women. Therefore, from what I see inGenesis 1-2; 1 Timothy 2; and Titus 1; the normal and proper person to hold the office of elder/pastor is to be a man.

What About Galatians 3:28?

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus," (Gal 3:28).

This verse is often used to support the idea that women can hold the offices of elder and pastor because there is neither male nor female in Christ. The argument states that if we are all equal, then women can be pastors.
Unfortunately, those who use this verse this way have failed to read the context. Verse 23 talks about being under the Law "before faith came" and how we are brought closer to Jesus and have become sons of God by faith. We are no longer under law, but grace and we are "Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise," (v. 29).2 The point of this passage is that we are all saved by God's grace according to the promise of God and that it doesn't matter who you are, Jew, Greek, slave, free, male, or female. All are saved the same way, by grace. In that, there is neither male nor female.

This verse is not talking about church structure. It is talking about salvation "in Christ." It cannot be used to support women as pastors because that isn't what it is talking about. Instead, to find out about church structure and leadership, you need to go to those passages that talk about it: 1 Timothy 2 and Titus 1.

Being a Pastor or Elder is to be in Authority

God is a God of order and balance. He has established order within the family (Gen 3:16; 1 Cor 11:3; Eph 5:22-33; Col 3:18-21 ) and the church (1 Tim 2:11-14; 1 Cor 11:8-9). Even within the Trinity there is an order, a hierarchy. The Father sent the Son (John 6:38) and both the Father and the Son sent the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26). Jesus said, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me," (John 6:38). It is clear that God is a God of order and structure.

In creation, God made Adam first and then Eve to be his helper. This is the order of creation. It is this order that Paul mentions in 1 Tim 2:11-14 when speaking of authority. Being a pastor or an elder is to be in the place of authority. Therefore, within the church, for a woman to be a pastor or elder, she would be in authority of men in the church which contradicts what Paul says in 1 Tim 2:11-14.

But Doesn't This Teaching Belittle Women?

No, male leadership does not belittle women. Jesus was given his authority by God the Father (Matt 28:18). He was sent by God (John 6:38). He said the Father was greater than He (John 14:28). Did this belittle Jesus? Of course not. Women are of great value in the church and need to be used more and more according to the gifts given them.

Does the wife's submission to the husband mean that she is less than the husband, less important, or belittled? Again, not at all. Not having a place of leadership in the church does not mean a woman is less of a person, less important to God, or inferior. All are equal before God whether it be Jew, Gentile, free, slave, male, or female. But in the church, God has set up an order the same way he set one up in the family. The chain of command is Jesus, the man, the wife, and the children.

What About Women Who Say They are Called By God to Be Pastors?

There are women pastors in the world who love their congregations and have stated that they are called by God to be pastors. Of course, I cannot agree with this considering the previous analysis of the biblical position. Instead, I believe they have usurped the position of men and gone against the norm of scriptural revelation. Additionally, those who state that they are called by God because of the great job they are doing and the gifting they have received are basing their theology upon experience and not scripture.

The issue is simple: are they submitting to the word of God or are they making the word of God submit to their desires?

What About a Missionary Woman Who Establishes a Church?

Scripture establishes the norm. As Christians we apply what we learn from the word, to the situations at hand. So, what about the situation where a woman missionary has converted a group of people, say in the jungle somewhere, and she has established a church? In that church, she is then functioning as a pastor and teacher having authority over men in the church. Should she not do this?

First of all, she should not be out there alone. She should be with her husband or, at the very least, under the oversight of a church body in the presence of other women and men. Missionary work is not a lone endeavor to be handled by single women.

Second, if in some highly unusual set of circumstances there is a woman in a lone situation, it is far more important that the word of God be preached and the gospel of salvation go forth to the lost than not. Whether it be male or female, let the gospel be spoken. However, I would say that as soon as there is/are males mature enough to handle eldership, that she should then establish the proper order of the church as revealed in scripture and thereby, show her submission to it.

Does this also mean that women shouldn't wear jewelry?


"Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments; 10 but rather by means of good works, as befits women making a claim to godliness. 11 Let a woman quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12 But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve," (1 Tim 2:9-13).



Some argue that if we are to forbid women to be elders then the context of 1 Tim 2:9-13 demands that we require women to no have braided hair, wear gold, or have costly garments. Since no one wants to put that sort of a demand on a woman (since it is cultural), then why should we also demand that they not be elders since it would logically follow that it was also a culturally based admonition?

The problem here is that multifaceted. First, the objection ignores what the scriptures plainly teach about the elder being the husband of one wife. Second, it fails to address the real issue of biblical headship residing in the male. Third, it fails to properly exegete the scripture in question.

In 1 Tim 2:9-13 Paul tells us that women should be modestly dressed. He uses the example of the then present day adornment as an example of what not to do. This is a culturally based assessment by Paul. Notice that Paul emphasizes good works and godliness as a qualifier (as does Peter, see 1 Pet 3:2). This is not a doctrinal statement tied to anything other than being a godly woman in appearance as well as attitude.

In verse 11, Paul says that a woman should quietly receive instruction. Please note that "The word, heµsychia, translated “quietness” in 1 Timothy 2:11 and silent in verse 12, does not mean complete silence or no talking. It is clearly used elsewhere (Acts 22:2; 2 Thes 3:12) to mean “settled down, undisturbed, not unruly. A different word (sigaoµ) means “to be silent, to say nothing” (cf. Luke 18:39; 1 Cor 14:34).”3 Paul is advocating orderliness in this verse.

Then in verse 12-13, Paul says, "But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13 For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve." Notice that Paul directly relates the authority issue with the created order. He does not do this with the woman's dress code. Therefore, the dress code is cultural and the authority issue as doctrinal since the latter is tied to the creation order and the dress code and authority issue are not.

Conclusion

God's word clearly tells us that the elder is to be the husband of one wife. A woman cannot qualify for this position by virtue of her being female. Whether anyone likes it or not is irrelevant to the fact that this is what the Bible teaches.