Greetings -- A Freindly Atheist Who Wants to Know: Why Christ?

[Travis]

Hiya, Travis. And thank you for the welcome. Just real quick, my last and worst interaction with a born again was with my cousin, who had become born again and married a kindred spirit. My father -- a secular Jew, an agnostic and a nuclear engineer -- was dying of cancer, in hospice in our home. He was too young and it was a miserable, agonizing way to go, though he bore up admirable. 3 days before he passed, my cousin and her husband came to spend some time with him. At the end they left him with a note, which I opened and read to him. Now, she had never evangelized to us before and we had always accepted her conversion with respect and support. The letter she wrote was a heartfelt plea for Dad to accept Christ and avoid the eternal woe of damnation... Forgetting its good intentions, it was received as a rebuke of a man on his deathbed who had led a moral, just and (humanistically) pious life all his days as he saw fit. I'm sure she thought she was bravely doing the right thing, making a last ditch effort to save Dad's soul. She obviously screwed up the math on her chances of succeeding versus the certainty that she would inject some extra, needless sadness into his last hours with us. I haven't seen or spoken to her since. As I said, it was a situation when other, worldly matters made it difficult to have a decent discussion of the issue. If she had still be in the house I would have been tempted to chuck her out a window. (It was a 1 story house, so... wouldn't have been THAT bad...)

I can see how, from your perspective that would be terrible. From my perspective, and seemingly from your cousin-in-law's (that a real term?), that was a merciful and desperate attempt to keep your father from eternal damnation. What I am about to quote isn't my opinion or my thinking, it is what the man who lived on earth named Jesus said:

32 So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33 but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven. 34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 40 "Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me. Matthew 10:32-40​

We really believe that, despite however humanly moral, just, and pious and individual is, if they are not known (close, personal, intimate relationship) by the Father and the Son, then they are on the path to eternal destruction/damnation. So for us, we have a deep and heartfelt concern for the souls of others that should always be more important than what are considered acceptable social norms. If we (Christians) care more about what people think, than what we believe God thinks, we have a very very serious problem. For someone who doesn't believe what we do, that's not very... comforting or perhaps a better phrase is 'good to hear.'

Running the risk of oversimplifying it: Our gospel, which you alluded to earlier as having an obligation to tell others about, has an inherent implication in it that all human beings are headed for eternal damnation, and that it is the preaching of our gospel, which turns men (both sexes) to the Living God, that gets people off that path, and onto the path of Life.

We can't preach what we believe without offending those who don't believe, because our message is that our way is the only way to salvation, and everyone else is headed to destruction.

I hope that made some sense... sorry if I am rambling.

Blessings,

Travis

p.s. Perhaps, just an idea, you could start some threads on specific topics you have questions about, so one thread doesn't just become a huge jumbled mess or something. Your call though = )

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Yeah. When I later learned Matthew 10 I connected the dots as to where my cuz and her hubby were coming from.

I'll definitely take your advice about specifics. I got very "big picture" right off the bat here since it was my intro thread and, being a heathen, I wanted to articulate why I'm here and that I have lots of questions but no malice.

Thanks again. And blessings. (Is that awkward coming from an Atheist?)

 

[RJ]

So, my question is... what (from your perspectives) am I doing wrong? Or... how am I looking at things wrong?

Me personally: read John and Romans, list your questions, come back and let's see where we can go from there.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Thanks. Will give it a shot.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hi, C4E! Thanks for hopping in.

I definitely understand that religiosity is no measure of intelligence, or social class, or (I would assert) moral fiber. I do think it is closely, though complexly, tied to upbringing.

But, If I get what you're BOTH saying, a prerequisite to being born again is an initial acceptance of the existence of God.

I don't have a general aversion to the notion of an all-powerful, supernatural being. For many years I just assumed there had to be one since most everybody seemed to think so. At some certain point, I decided I just have never encountered anything that supports the premise more than a purely naturalistic view. As I said, what's much more important to me than my atheism (my version of which is worthless, 'cuz it's the absence of belief) is knowing how the world really works. I know RJ defines a resistance to belief as having a "hard heart," but I am entranced with wonder at the universe and see miracles wherever I look, etc. Miracles of a beautiful natural universe which, for me, would lose some luster if I thought they were contrived by a thinking being who is also responsible for causing (or at least not stopping) killer tsunamis.

So, my question is... what (from your perspectives) am I doing wrong? Or... how am I looking at things wrong?

We're at least in the same universe!!!! I am also entranced with the wonder of the universe, the miracles of life everywhere I turn. I look at the night sky and think "WOW" that stands for the words I lack in saying how awesome it is!!!! Yet, where you lose your appreciation of it when you think of a god existing that created this and that an accident makes it more appealing. I see the opportunity to know something even greater than what I am seeing with my eyes that is behind it all!!! If this universe that we live in is so "WOW" then how must the Creator be who made this all? How Wonderfully Amazing God must be? Double WOW What else can he do?

As far as the tsunamis go. Would it make it any better knowing that they happen naturally or should we say accidently or that they happen because we are who we are so that the earth rebels against us? The latter part is theology so careful where we step before we look past God to our own cause and effect or why better yet. Why do people build houses where they know tsunamis' are going to hit? In the last part you might want to think about what RJ said about hard hearted and maybe make hard headed as well.

 

[Chad]

Welcome to the forums @Kirby D. P.

Glad you're here. Since you're interacting and receiving responses from a few others, I'd like to share a few other threads here that may answer some common questions and some deeper ones

First one is a nice bulleted list. Pretty long, but very informative and covers so much for a skeptical person who hasn't accepted Christ.

Questions and Objections | Talk Jesus
Why believe in Christianity? | Talk Jesus

I can testify that in my 13 years being born again, through good days and bad days, trials and heartbreaks - Jesus has never failed me once. I have nothing to gain to glorify Him if I knew this wasn't true.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Some good food for thought, C4E. Speaking for myself, the random nature of natural disasters, etc. has two main effects upon me. First, it brings me some peace of mind to think there's no one (supernatural) out to get me and that there's no supernatural being who could do something to stop unspeakable horrors but won't. That having been said, in order to hold this perspective, I do have to be comfortable with the notion that the universe doesn't owe me an explanation for anything -- some people, even agnostics I know -- find that very dispiriting. The other thing it (the randomness of most tragedy) does is overawe me with an almost desperate, passionate appreciation for the preciousness, frailty, and fleeting nature of life and happiness, hence, enhancing my esteem of it.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Hi, Chad. Very glad to be here and be welcome. I will check those resources out and I am sincerely glad for the joy and strength you draw from your faith.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Some good food for thought, C4E. Speaking for myself, the random nature of natural disasters, etc. has two main effects upon me. First, it brings me some peace of mind to think there's no one (supernatural) out to get me and that there's no supernatural being who could do something to stop unspeakable horrors but won't. That having been said, in order to hold this perspective, I do have to be comfortable with the notion that the universe doesn't owe me an explanation for anything -- some people, even agnostics I know -- find that very dispiriting. The other thing it (the randomness of most tragedy) does is overawe me with an almost desperate, passionate appreciation for the preciousness, frailty, and fleeting nature of life and happiness, hence, enhancing my esteem of it.

Supernatural? Just another word for unknown. At least for some.

Horrors? To us maybe, but whose perspective are you really looking from? Surely, not an all powerful, eternal being that is outside of time. Maybe, one that is flawed like we are, but not one we cannot but only begin to comprehend yet never fully know and understand.

The greater question instead of His existence is "If god exists why does he concern himself with man at all?" For one that has a control over life and death, what does temporary tragedy ultimately affect? When all he has to do is just blow us back up like a balloon. We won't even have the memories of having previously existed if that is what God wanted!!!!

If God were to fit into what any one person believed he ought to be. He'd be just as flawed as the person who thought him up. Why? Because he be limited to what that person knew and not what he couldn't possibly not know. What a conundrum to a god existing that we could comprehend!

If God has no beginning or end how would he look to you? Do you think his perspective would be defined in a way that we'd be able to understand? The concept of God fits better in looking at the perfectly created universe that you admire so. It's so perfectly balanced. A degree less or more and nothing. Tilt an axis a smidgen and poof no life. Every facet of nature can be looked at this way. Even to levels we can't see with unaided eyes and come to the realization that the mathematical probably says something had to be behind it, but we just don't want to believe it. Why? That's the real question. Why can't I believe in a God? Write them all down and you will find that none of it precludes a God from existing.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

First, theologians and apologists are fond of citing how the Universe is so “perfectly” balanced to sustain human life, based on the scientific evidence. I think a more honest perspective is that it’s “barely” balanced to sustain human life.

I do not know of any evidence that absolutely disproves the existence of any gods at all. But here are two things that I do find in view of the cosmos:

1. None of it seems to require any gods.
2. I see massive indications that, even if any god does exist, the God of the Old and New Testament does not…

And I could be absolutely wrong about that.

But to come to your point wondering how inscrutable an infinite and infinitely powerful God must appear to insignificant mortals such as we are, doesn’t that undermine the premise as stated in the Bible that He made us in His own image? Moreover, getting back to my point about horror and tragedy (let’s just call it “evil” for brevity), I have heard again and again that God loves us. The only way I can comprehend love is that sense of love I have within myself. I KNOW how I treat those I love. Creatures ranging from my wife and kids down to my dog and sea monkeys. I love and care for my pet sea monkeys and take great (and my wife thinks “silly”) pains to protect and nurture them.

If Godly love is characterized by giving life to children who develop cancer and suffer horribly for most of their short lives (sadly, I have had three such instances in my life), then it’s very different from my understanding of love. Why do we use the same word for it?

 

[RJ]

First, theologians and apologists are fond of citing how the Universe is so “perfectly” balanced to sustain human life, based on the scientific evidence. I think a more honest perspective is that it’s “barely” balanced to sustain human life.

I do not know of any evidence that absolutely disproves the existence of any gods at all. But here are two things that I do find in view of the cosmos:

1. None of it seems to require any gods.
2. I see massive indications that, even if any god does exist, the God of the Old and New Testament does not…

And I could be absolutely wrong about that.

But to come to your point wondering how inscrutable an infinite and infinitely powerful God must appear to insignificant mortals such as we are, doesn’t that undermine the premise as stated in the Bible that He made us in His own image? Moreover, getting back to my point about horror and tragedy (let’s just call it “evil” for brevity), I have heard again and again that God loves us. The only way I can comprehend love is that sense of love I have within myself. I KNOW how I treat those I love. Creatures ranging from my wife and kids down to my dog and sea monkeys. I love and care for my pet sea monkeys and take great (and my wife thinks “silly”) pains to protect and nurture them.

If Godly love is characterized by giving life to children who develop cancer and suffer horribly for most of their short lives (sadly, I have had three such instances in my life), then it’s very different from my understanding of love. Why do we use the same word for it?

You are full of reasons not to believe and I see no spark in you to even try, therefore, as a believer , I see no course for you but to remain lost. What truly saddens me is that it seems apparent that your children will not be encourage to make their own choice.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

You're half right, I suppose. or 3/4 right. I have not yet encountered any good reasons TO believe. Obviously. Otherwise I would believe. It's not because I don't WANT to believe. I'm not averse to believing, if the Bible is a true description of how the world works. As for my children, I am sorry to say your dead wrong about that. I answer every question they have without prejudice to one faith or another. We have gone to church. It's true I have never, and will never, tell them they are innately sinful. But I beg them to take a close look at all religions (and nonreligion) and follow their heart. I never say my unbelief brings me any particular joy or sadness or that it's absolutely right.

But to get back to your gloomy diagnosis for me: So, in your opinion, the only people worth saving are ones who have, at a bare minimum, some spark of interest in "trying" to believe? Why doesn't speaking with believers like you count? A do know atheists, very offensive ones, who say things like, "Ugh. All Christians are idiots and sheep and there's nothing to their stupid superstitions. I don't NEED to hear anything they have to say." If we're all lost causes, wouldn't you say I'm slightly less lost than they are? Or is belief truly a process which can only begin with faith?

 

[Shutterbug]

Hello.

I am an atheist. I live in one of the world’s great secular, pluralistic communities. I was raised nominally observant (Jewish) and, outside of specific religious activity, none of my social interactions have depended upon faith. Very few of my friends are atheist, but those who do believe in some god are generally nonobservant and none of them challenge my atheism – we are a close-knit social set. To the best of my knowledge, none or few of them believe in literal salvation and I know for a fact none of them believe in any literal Hell. Of the believers among my friends, I think they all agree there is an afterlife and some sort of creative spirit behind creation.

I do not.

Anyway, I am absolutely obsessed with understanding the nature of existence. And I try never to discount any premise merely on my current assumptions from day to day. I do read/watch/listen to Christian media but, as any thinking person of 2015, I take these all with a grain of salt. My past experiences (going back almost 20 years or more) with devout Christians were intensely unpleasant, but they were always situations where overarching, worldly issues made friendly inspection of the basis for belief impossible.

I’m here to strike up a conversation with a real believer(s) who might be interested in… well… saving me, and also might want to hear why I feel that belief is wrongheaded – I don’t mean to say that as an insult. If I DIDN’T think belief was wrongheaded, then I would, of course, believe. I don’t have faith in anything, even my own conviction that there are no gods. So, I welcome the chance to see if that weak conviction bears up, or if I can be shown the need for faith.

I hope I can look forward to a friendly tussle.

Kirby

Good afternoon Kirby;

Out of curiosity, did you ever post on the Oneness Pentecostal newsgroup? Yeah, that's going back a few years.

Truthfully, it would simplify a lot of issues if I could simply say, "God, this is Kirby. Kirby, this is God", and let Him prove his credentials to you. Unfortunately, I cannot and neither can anyone else. WRT to Creation, I'm of the opinion that the world, as we know it, was created in such a way that several conclusions can be drawn. Taken at face value, the Bible is a compendium of history, advice, and warnings. If it can be believed as true when compared to other religious tomes, it is at the very least God's plan of salvation for Mankind. Scientifically, I cannot prove that either Heaven or Hell exists. The Dead tell no tales of what becomes of them. Thus we're left with the choice of believing the message of the Gospel to be true or false while we still alive with no guarantees of how long that is. Sadly, many professing Christianity have become the Gospel's greatest adversary spreading division and discord in the Church. I've read that wherever God builds a church, the Devil builds a chapel nearby.

We are presented with the choice of wanting to live life according to God's rules, or our own rules becoming masters of our own destiny. Could God do things differently? Absolutely. Could God prevent natural disasters? Yep. But, sometimes stuff happens where the rain falls on the just and the unjust. John 3:16 tells us that God loved us so much that He sent his own son to be the propitiation for our sins. All that we're required to do is to allow Jesus control of our hearts and live accordingly. Unfortunately, God developed an enemy in the Beginning, and that enemy does not want us to do that. Hell was created for him and his followers, those angels who rebelled with him. Revelation speaks of a Day of Judgement at which all people will be judged according to their works. If their names are not found in the Book of Life, they are treated like garbage and cast into the Lake of Fire. Whether that means forever or until burned up is a topic I'll leave for others to debate. And some will ask, "Does that sound like a loving God?". Seemingly not. I'm not saying this to scare you into submission as Jesus did not dwell on the subject, but he did include it.

While a number of spiritualists have stated that some things Jesus said are good, that is the end of their commitment. The name of Jesus never creates an atmosphere of ambivalence, but always one in which one either loves or hates his name. The Bible says that the will of the Father is that none should perish. You are on the list of those He wants to keep. But, the decision is left to you whether you want to. By all means, I encourage you to read the New Testament. Find someone of the Faith whom you can trust and can be a sound influence. Please bear in mind that Christians are still human. Paul writes that we perceive spiritual things as looking through a dark glass, kind of like wearing welder's goggles. We do not get a clear picture. We are not born knowing God, but He will let us know He is there if we look for Him.

Cheers,
John Phil 4:8

 

[RJ]

I have not yet encountered any good reasons TO believ

• Your thinking is secular / physical , the reasons are non-secular / spiritual....again it is foolish to you.
• Here is a physical evidence, but you have to be a bit of a historian and know that many documents, other than the Bible say Jesus was real. Many cultures believe he existed and did many miracles. If he completed only a few ( < 10) of the hundreds of prophesy's that the Bible lists, the odds are astronomical that he was not who he said he was, only one chance in millions. Look it up. If you are a odds person, is it worth the chance?
  

  It's not because I don't WANT to believe.

It's not because I don't WANT to believe.

Let's go on that premise, you need to read the two Bible Chapters and bring us questions.

if the Bible is a true description of how the world works

No the Bible is a true description of what has happened and will happen in the world. The world, secular world, is physical. Certainly, you must agree that "something" exists after life? If you don't, you must not believe in any type of spiritual world, and then there isn't much chance of changing your perspective. Otherwise, if you do have some since that there is something after this life, then you have a chance. So, if there is something, who created it? Is it worth the chance to ignore the possibilities of a, after life, world existing and that world is God. Our Bible tells us God is spirit and we must worship him in spirit and truth. We are created in his image, the spiritual; not the physical.
Another train of thought: of the @ 8 billion people in the world, approximately 84% believe in a higher power (religion)....you are in a very small minority...why would you be right?

It's true I have never, and will never, tell them they are innately sinfu

Well, there you go...that pretty much decides it doesn't it?

But to get back to your gloomy diagnosis for me:

It is not my diagnosis but God himself. I love you and so does God. If God did not set it up the way he has, we would not be just!

So, in your opinion, the only people worth saving are ones who have, at a bare minimum, some spark of interest in "trying" to believe?

No, I did not say that. Everyone is worth saving but that is not my decision but God alone. The Bible is explicit about you are required to believe to be saved.
Romans 10:13 "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."...only Christianity has this, no other religion.
Another way of looking at this, is you finally, in your secular life, come to the realization, that you can't do all this by yourself, that you need help. Ask yourself, why am I here, why not a talk Islam or Buddha or Hindu...why Christian?

Or is belief truly a process which can only begin with faith?

No other religion says this sort of thing....salvation by faith alone. The caveat, that you don't know yet...it is not your faith, you don't manufacture it...it is a gift from our God!

" If we're all lost causes, wouldn't you say I'm slightly less lost than they are?

Like I said before, I have never been an Atheist, but the BC for me, Before Christ, I was not different than you and just as lost!
No, you are lost, I am not! But until your physical death, you still have the chance to be reconciled with God.

Or is belief truly a process which can only begin with faith?

Actually, you are very close to the truth. When you finally come to the realization that you can't do all this by yourself, you are on the right path. When that happens, just reach out and ask Jesus to come into your heart and let God do the rest. When things start to happen, we will all be here to help you understand your transformation.

 

[Christ4Ever]

First, theologians and apologists are fond of citing how the Universe is so “perfectly” balanced to sustain human life, based on the scientific evidence. I think a more honest perspective is that it’s “barely” balanced to sustain human life.
I do not know of any evidence that absolutely disproves the existence of any gods at all. But here are two things that I do find in view of the cosmos:
1. None of it seems to require any gods.
2. I see massive indications that, even if any god does exist, the God of the Old and New Testament does not…
And I could be absolutely wrong about that.
But to come to your point wondering how inscrutable an infinite and infinitely powerful God must appear to insignificant mortals such as we are, doesn’t that undermine the premise as stated in the Bible that He made us in His own image? Moreover, getting back to my point about horror and tragedy (let’s just call it “evil” for brevity), I have heard again and again that God loves us. The only way I can comprehend love is that sense of love I have within myself. I KNOW how I treat those I love. Creatures ranging from my wife and kids down to my dog and sea monkeys. I love and care for my pet sea monkeys and take great (and my wife thinks “silly”) pains to protect and nurture them.
If Godly love is characterized by giving life to children who develop cancer and suffer horribly for most of their short lives (sadly, I have had three such instances in my life), then it’s very different from my understanding of love. Why do we use the same word for it?

Dear Kirby,
Barely balanced and perfectly balanced. Isn't it evident that all you're seeing is the other side of the same coin when you made that statement? Is it probable that this balance occurred by accident or is there a greater probability that there was intelligence involved in creation?

Interesting that you would state "a more honest perspective" in coming to a conclusion that from the outset excludes God as a possibility. That type of flawed reasoning only results in a flawed result or a desired one.

The biggest impediment to including God in determining His hand in creation is that "well I can't prove that He exist". The problem is not that it can't be proven, but the statement is a flawed one for one who is seeking to find an answer. But, isn't that what seeking answers to the unanswerable is all about? Taking all data no matter what preconceived thoughts may have us believe and continuing on seeking for the right answer?

Every leap in understanding came from a new thought process. They all had the question. What they didn't have is the method by which to answer the question. What the statement is really saying is not that there are no methods by which I can answer the question, but I don't want to find the method by which it might be done. People are almost as afraid in the method needed as they are in actually finding an answer! Because thing about what it would mean? A God? Maybe, no longer the ruler of our own existence? Then we have to answer more questions to deal with, and guess who we have to go to for the answers then?

Might require us to have a little humility doesn't it? Hummmm....maybe it should make us feel a little special, because we were created differently then all the other creatures, but then pride gets in the way and we feel somehow less then we should be.......

Regardless. The method has to be found for we know the question. Is there God? Ready to embark Kirby? Ready to go where others have gone before? Ready to jump at the things that bump in the night? Fear that will have your mind grasping at plausible explanations, that somehow ring hollow even to you? You might even find yourself laughing at yourself for even attempting it. How's that saying go "nothing ventured, nothing gained".

Just be truthful to yourself. It's either all in or all out. No half stepping on this one. Just like everyone who has ever leaped where no one else had ever been before and come out the other side changed. For better or for worse, depending on what side you are looking from. You will be changed. Einstein, Newton, Copernicus, Obama (sorry couldn't help myself), me, Chad, Br. Bear, RJ, so many others here and elsewhere in their own right. You take this step, it's not to prove to us or anyone else. I don't expect you to come back and say "You were wrong nothing happened" "You were right and I can't explain it". Neither one will move me or others who believe in a God, who believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Nope. Our belief is not predicated on you believing. We might feel sadness, or joy, but even this will be irrelevant to what you will find.

Why you came here to Talk Jesus only you really know and maybe God. But that you have arrived. The next step in your life is up to you to take. Like any good seeker leave preconceived notions aside if you can or at least as much as possible. Can you do it? Do really care to try? Do you really want to try? Can you without reservation attempt it? Kirby seeker of truth.

If you do. Then PM me. I'll not open this to anyone besides you, me and God. If you don't mind I will however, ask prayers to others for you should you decide on moving forward.
C4E
<><

 

[JoniSteele]

I'll take it as assumed: you believe in God and the Jesus is Christ. Do you believe in the Devil and in Hell?

Yes...and I believe this because while God is a God of love He is also a God of justice. Do you feel that by God's standards we are basically all good enough to earn eternity in Heaven ?

 

[LostButTrying]

I think there is a scientific way of thinking about things, scientific materialism, that only allows the belief in something that can be demonstrably or objectively proven to anybody.
Spiritual beliefs seem to defy this sort of 'evidence' and refuses to be put to the test.
There are so many things that can't be put to the test by scientific materialism, How do you 'prove' love? It's experienced subjectively, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

The fact is people have spiritual experiences, how you account for them is a different matter, but they do have these experiences. Are they mad? Maybe some are, but people who have these experiences don't really seem psychotic. In many ways they seem happier and heathier than they were before.

I read the Bible and pray, but I also read the Quran, Sufi writings, pagan beliefs, you name it. Buddhism is interesting in that it eschews a creator god.

Whatever you believe, even as an atheist, I think it is still a good thing to value other people's experience. If a lot of people are saying the same thing, then that is not simply anecdotal, that is evidence.

There is a guy called Rupert Sheldrake, he is a biologist but also investigates the paranormal. You can find on YouTube, He's interesting to listen to.

He often makes the point that the debunkers often won't even look at the evidence he presents, but rather, they dismiss it out of hand.

Good luck with your quest.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Yes...and I believe this because while God is a God of love He is also a God of justice. Do you feel that by God's standards we are basically all good enough to earn eternity in Heaven ?

No. I don’t find the standards ascribed to God fair or reasonable. But, then, I see no good reason to think he, or Heaven, or any afterlife are real. If I did, I would accept their existence. I might not like it. But there are lots of things that exist even though I dislike them.

You seem to believe you will exist in some from for all eternity, or at least if you are accepted into Heaven you will. Is that so? If so, what do you find attractive about it?

 

[JoniSteele]

No. I don’t find the standards ascribed to God fair or reasonable. But, then, I see no good reason to think he, or Heaven, or any afterlife are real. If I did, I would accept their existence. I might not like it. But there are lots of things that exist even though I dislike them.

You seem to believe you will exist in some from for all eternity, or at least if you are accepted into Heaven you will. Is that so? If so, what do you find attractive about it?

I do believe that I will spend eternity with the living God. What I find attractive about this is the way God will bring that about. By God's standards, none of us are good enough to get into Heaven because His standard is perfection. None of us can achieve perfection through our own efforts. So, what is the reason for my hope? There is one who is perfect who took the punishment for my sins in my place.
If He had not done this there would be no way I could spend eternity with God. So, I had to do this simple thing to secure my place in Heaven:
1) Acknowledge that I am a sinner and that I need a Savior
2) Believe on the only one who could be the perfect sacrifice for my sin...Jesus Christ...who is the son of God who died for my sins on the cross and rose to new life making eternal life with God possible for me.
It is because of God's grace that none of us get what we deserve. We all have the choice to give our lives to Jesus. When we do this are sins are forgiven and we are justified. An easy way to remember this is its "just as if I never sinned"
If you give your life to Jesus tonight your sins can be forgiven once and for all. You can be born again...a new creation in Christ. God is real...not because anyone has ever seen Him but because of the other ways He manifests His presence in the lives of those who walk in His ways
I pray that you will make Jesus your Savior. There is both a Heaven and a He'll. God gives us a choice of where we want to spend eternity. He does not send us to He'll. We send ourselves there when we reject the precious gift of Salvation from Jesus Christ.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

I think there is a scientific way of thinking about things, scientific materialism, that only allows the belief in something that can be demonstrably or objectively proven to anybody.
Spiritual beliefs seem to defy this sort of 'evidence' and refuses to be put to the test.
There are so many things that can't be put to the test by scientific materialism, How do you 'prove' love? It's experienced subjectively, but that doesn't mean it isn't true.

The fact is people have spiritual experiences, how you account for them is a different matter, but they do have these experiences. Are they mad? Maybe some are, but people who have these experiences don't really seem psychotic. In many ways they seem happier and heathier than they were before.

I read the Bible and pray, but I also read the Quran, Sufi writings, pagan beliefs, you name it. Buddhism is interesting in that it eschews a creator god.

Whatever you believe, even as an atheist, I think it is still a good thing to value other people's experience. If a lot of people are saying the same thing, then that is not simply anecdotal, that is evidence.

There is a guy called Rupert Sheldrake, he is a biologist but also investigates the paranormal. You can find on YouTube, He's interesting to listen to.

He often makes the point that the debunkers often won't even look at the evidence he presents, but rather, they dismiss it out of hand.

Good luck with your quest.

Hello, LostButTrying.

I admit I am a materialist and I do strive to keep my thinking as scientific as possible. I wouldn’t say thinking scientifically prevents me from “believing” in anything “spiritual.” I don’t actually believe in anything, period. I accept the existence of certain things based on my understanding of available evidence. If I thought there was good evidence for anything supernatural, I would accept its existence. If one of the characteristics of supernatural things is they do not offer confirmable evidence, then I can’t tell the difference between them and things that do not exist. In other words, I find it a distinction without a difference. Until I am shown some evidence of which I am unaware at the moment, the supernatural, including souls and spirits, does not exist.

I accept that spiritualism is a real EXPERIENCE shared by a great many people. But the popularity of those experiences is no way evidence for the existence of any supernatural underlying cause. Belief in a geocentric character of the universe was universal for, literally, ages. This was given over to a heliocentric view on the universe. As popular as this became it is still not a good description of the expanding universe in which we actually live.

You imply I must (or might) think subjective experiences such as love aren’t real. I can only counter I find love an altogether real thing, the defining bedrock of all my important relationships. I value it, rely upon it and I would be quite crippled without it. For my part I would offer love (and all emotions) is a very peculiarly animalistic state of consciousness, and then only among a select few varieties of animals. I don’t think oysters feel love. I am quite convinced dogs do. I have met dogs that show a great deal more love than many humans I know are even capable of. To me, this only makes sense if there are no souls. If I believed I HAVE a soul but dogs don’t, then the fact of love must have nothing to do with souls. I am aware of certain believers in the spiritual who think more “advanced” creatures (such as humans) have more “developed” souls than “lesser” beings like dogs. This includes devotees of Tibetan Buddhism and their belief in reincarnation and the karmic notion of progression from “lesser” to more sophisticated life forms over successive lives. My dog would be very surprised to learn she is a “lesser” form of life in any way (except I KNOW she craves opposable thumbs).

I definitely value the insights and experiences of other people, explaining my interactions here. I think such activity is worthwhile because, no matter how skeptical I may be, if there is any truth in Christianity, it is probably the single most important fact of the universe. That isn’t enough by itself to warrant much of my attention, but it is at least reasonable. However, regardless of how vanishingly unlikely I think it is, the fact remains my world is enormously influenced by Christian thinking. So understanding as much as I can about it seems worth the time and effort.

Thank you for the kind wishes on my quest. I hope yours is fruitful and rewarding in return.