Greetings -- A Freindly Atheist Who Wants to Know: Why Christ?

[Kirby D. P.]

I do believe that I will spend eternity with the living God. What I find attractive about this is the way God will bring that about. By God's standards, none of us are good enough to get into Heaven because His standard is perfection. None of us can achieve perfection through our own efforts. So, what is the reason for my hope? There is one who is perfect who took the punishment for my sins in my place.
If He had not done this there would be no way I could spend eternity with God. So, I had to do this simple thing to secure my place in Heaven:
1) Acknowledge that I am a sinner and that I need a Savior
2) Believe on the only one who could be the perfect sacrifice for my sin...Jesus Christ...who is the son of God who died for my sins on the cross and rose to new life making eternal life with God possible for me.
It is because of God's grace that none of us get what we deserve. We all have the choice to give our lives to Jesus. When we do this are sins are forgiven and we are justified. An easy way to remember this is its "just as if I never sinned"
If you give your life to Jesus tonight your sins can be forgiven once and for all. You can be born again...a new creation in Christ. God is real...not because anyone has ever seen Him but because of the other ways He manifests His presence in the lives of those who walk in His ways
I pray that you will make Jesus your Savior. There is both a Heaven and a He'll. God gives us a choice of where we want to spend eternity. He does not send us to He'll. We send ourselves there when we reject the precious gift of Salvation from Jesus Christ.

You suggest some (what seems to me to be) odd contradictions. You suggest God is perfect and that he can’t (or won’t) love less-than-perfect things. That the only solution to seeking his love is to love and accept him first, then all our imperfections will be erased.

I say I find this odd and contradictory because it immediately brings to mind my children. I love them more than anything else (with my wife coming in a close second). I am told they are not perfect beings (though, honestly, I have a hard time believing it). But I don’t love them less because of that. I’m sure you think of God not existing as incomprehensible. Please trust me when I tell you I find the notion of not loving my children, or punishing them for any of their imperfections, just as incomprehensible. I do “punish” them as a matter of discipline. But this is never an act of justice. I never discipline them to right some wrong. My only purpose in doing so is to teach them how the thrive and have a happier, more fulfilling existence. At some point in the future they will be beyond my capacity to train. And I wouldn’t want to anyway. Yet they will still be imperfect even then. And I will still love them.

Do you find God’s standards for admission to Heaven at all rigid? If he loves us as much as I love my children, why can’t/won’t he accept us with our imperfections? Especially when the alternative (unless there’s a third option I’m forgetting) is the worst form of torment imaginable?

Finally, I’ll rephrase the questions from my previous comment:

1. Do you think some part of us lives on eternally into the future? If so, why?
2. Do you find the prospect of living forever, whether in Heaven or in Hell, appealing?

 

[JoniSteele]

Yes...I do believe we live forever and because I have accepted the previous gift of Salvation from Jesus Christ I will be forever with God in Heaven. I think I need to clarify something. While we were still sinners, imperfect if you will, Jesus died for us. We can never live a completely sinless life or obtain perfection by our own efforts. God's standard has to be perfection. Only a perfect, sinless sacrifice could eradicate our sins. This is found in the person of Jesus Christ. He didn't wait for us to be perfect before He loved us just as you Love your children in spite of their flaws. So, why discipline them? Because you understand the difference between right and wrong and want them to learn the same. You hope, I'm sure, that their behavior will improve. However, they will never be perfect. You love them anyway. This is how God sees us. The only difference is God lives in a sinless environment called Heaven. He is holy and perfect. He can't live in a place where there is sin and imperfection. So, how do we as imperfect beings reconcile being perfect so we can spend an eternity with God in Heaven. The Bible says that we all sin, including me, a Christian. Christian doesn't equal perfect. I too once thought there was no God. I thought we died and that was it. I thought this life was all their is. How tragic if that was the case. Now I know differently. I was saved in 2004. I have been walking with the Lord ever since. He gave His life to take away my sins so that I could spend eternity with God. But you seem like an intelligent person. Don't just take my word for any of this. I'm just a flawed human being. Go directly to the source. I started reading the Bible back in 2004, looking for loopholes, something that would tell me that I could achieve Heaven by my own efforts. I soon learned why I couldn't. Are you open to doing some homework? I'd like to recommend that you start by reading the book of Genesis. This may help you to better understand why I know that God is real.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Yes...I do believe we live forever and because I have accepted the previous gift of Salvation from Jesus Christ I will be forever with God in Heaven. I think I need to clarify something. While we were still sinners, imperfect if you will, Jesus died for us. We can never live a completely sinless life or obtain perfection by our own efforts. God's standard has to be perfection. Only a perfect, sinless sacrifice could eradicate our sins. This is found in the person of Jesus Christ. He didn't wait for us to be perfect before He loved us just as you Love your children in spite of their flaws. So, why discipline them? Because you understand the difference between right and wrong and want them to learn the same. You hope, I'm sure, that their behavior will improve. However, they will never be perfect. You love them anyway. This is how God sees us. The only difference is God lives in a sinless environment called Heaven. He is holy and perfect. He can't live in a place where there is sin and imperfection. So, how do we as imperfect beings reconcile being perfect so we can spend an eternity with God in Heaven. The Bible says that we all sin, including me, a Christian. Christian doesn't equal perfect. I too once thought there was no God. I thought we died and that was it. I thought this life was all their is. How tragic if that was the case. Now I know differently. I was saved in 2004. I have been walking with the Lord ever since. He gave His life to take away my sins so that I could spend eternity with God. But you seem like an intelligent person. Don't just take my word for any of this. I'm just a flawed human being. Go directly to the source. I started reading the Bible back in 2004, looking for loopholes, something that would tell me that I could achieve Heaven by my own efforts. I soon learned why I couldn't. Are you open to doing some homework? I'd like to recommend that you start by reading the book of Genesis. This may help you to better understand why I know that God is real.

I am reading the Bible on a fairly constant basis.

My all-time favorite bits are Gen 2:15, the only part that tells why God created us and what our divinely determined duty is; and Job 1:7, Satan’s first appearance –– I am a writer and that is just one stellar way to debut a character.

You raise a lot of details I’d like to discuss, but before I go off on a tangent, I’d like to come to grips with your take on the whole “life everlasting” thing, especially as you say you come from a background not unlike where I find myself today.

I don’t find the notion of living forever in Heaven very attractive. For many years I did fear death. I feared on the one hand, if religion is at all true, I might be due for some serious punishment for all my imperfections. And on the other hand if it was not true and there would just be nothingness. Today, at age fifty, I haven’t come across anything that leads me to suspect there’ll be any continuation, good or bad, beyond death. And I no longer consider the prospect that death is simply an end to my identity with any sense of fear. I should say that I have had a few close calls with death in the last several years and since these I see it as a natural fact of life about which I can do nothing and, for me, it is enough to suffer as little as possible and enrich the lives of my loved ones ‘til then.

If any of the descriptions of Hell is real, it’s natural enough to want to avoid it. But neither do I think Heaven sounds all that appealing. Assume for a moment I accept Christ and strive to live in his ways the rest of my days, and I go to Heaven. Now what? I rejoice in the glory of God? Okay. Nice, I suppose. Perhaps I suffer a lack of imagination, but I can’t fathom how I’ll find that interesting for very long. Might I be reunited with my ancestors? Sure, I’d like to see SOME of them again. But most of my ancestors are strangers to me. And the ones I’d want to see will be as interested in seeing their parents (whom to me are strangers) as they are interested in seeing me. And what will we be doing together?

More importantly, I suppose you agree that every person’s admission to Heaven depends upon their individual choice to accept Christ, yes? So, after I die, IF I am allowed into Heaven, there is a chance my children won’t make the cut. That, for me, is a non-starter, right there. If Heaven is a place of limitless bliss, I could never find acceptance. If I were admitted, but my children were not, any bliss I could find would be DECIDEDLY limited. I have been told that I will be treated to such ecstasies I won’t care if my children are in Hell. But if this is so, I wouldn’t be me, hence the me I am today has no use for Paradise.

Furthermore, if apostates are sent to eternal punishment, and my children did not believe but I did, I would insist upon accepting punishment for them, or at least one of them, on their behalf. I would happily exchange eternity in Heaven for eternity in Hell if it meant sparing my children that torment. If that exchange is unacceptable in the eyes of God, then I take issue with his contention that Jesus could do as much for me. And I wouldn’t even insist upon saving EVERYBODY (though I would if I could). I would simply ask that my kids be spared such severe judgment.

So far as I’ve been able to reason it out, if this is the proposition confronting me and to forbear accepting my offered sacrifice on behalf of my children would be unacceptable according to the standards of God’s love, I don’t see his love as something I need very much.

I expect you see some mountainous flaw in my reasoning. Could you please point it out? I may not believe in God, but if I ever do, that belief will still be nettled by this paradox.

 

[JoniSteele]

I am reading the Bible on a fairly constant basis.

My all-time favorite bits are Gen 2:15, the only part that tells why God created us and what our divinely determined duty is; and Job 1:7, Satan’s first appearance –– I am a writer and that is just one stellar way to debut a character.

You raise a lot of details I’d like to discuss, but before I go off on a tangent, I’d like to come to grips with your take on the whole “life everlasting” thing, especially as you say you come from a background not unlike where I find myself today.

I don’t find the notion of living forever in Heaven very attractive. For many years I did fear death. I feared on the one hand, if religion is at all true, I might be due for some serious punishment for all my imperfections. And on the other hand if it was not true and there would just be nothingness. Today, at age fifty, I haven’t come across anything that leads me to suspect there’ll be any continuation, good or bad, beyond death. And I no longer consider the prospect that death is simply an end to my identity with any sense of fear. I should say that I have had a few close calls with death in the last several years and since these I see it as a natural fact of life about which I can do nothing and, for me, it is enough to suffer as little as possible and enrich the lives of my loved ones ‘til then.

If any of the descriptions of Hell is real, it’s natural enough to want to avoid it. But neither do I think Heaven sounds all that appealing. Assume for a moment I accept Christ and strive to live in his ways the rest of my days, and I go to Heaven. Now what? I rejoice in the glory of God? Okay. Nice, I suppose. Perhaps I suffer a lack of imagination, but I can’t fathom how I’ll find that interesting for very long. Might I be reunited with my ancestors? Sure, I’d like to see SOME of them again. But most of my ancestors are strangers to me. And the ones I’d want to see will be as interested in seeing their parents (whom to me are strangers) as they are interested in seeing me. And what will we be doing together?

More importantly, I suppose you agree that every person’s admission to Heaven depends upon their individual choice to accept Christ, yes? So, after I die, IF I am allowed into Heaven, there is a chance my children won’t make the cut. That, for me, is a non-starter, right there. If Heaven is a place of limitless bliss, I could never find acceptance. If I were admitted, but my children were not, any bliss I could find would be DECIDEDLY limited. I have been told that I will be treated to such ecstasies I won’t care if my children are in Hell. But if this is so, I wouldn’t be me, hence the me I am today has no use for Paradise.

Furthermore, if apostates are sent to eternal punishment, and my children did not believe but I did, I would insist upon accepting punishment for them, or at least one of them, on their behalf. I would happily exchange eternity in Heaven for eternity in Hell if it meant sparing my children that torment. If that exchange is unacceptable in the eyes of God, then I take issue with his contention that Jesus could do as much for me. And I wouldn’t even insist upon saving EVERYBODY (though I would if I could). I would simply ask that my kids be spared such severe judgment.

So far as I’ve been able to reason it out, if this is the proposition confronting me and to forbear accepting my offered sacrifice on behalf of my children would be unacceptable according to the standards of God’s love, I don’t see his love as something I need very much.

I expect you see some mountainous flaw in my reasoning. Could you please point it out? I may not believe in God, but if I ever do, that belief will still be nettled by this paradox.

You obviously are giving this a lot of thought. That is a good thing. Many folks, not just you are under the false impression that Heaven is just this boring place where we sit on a cloud and play our harps for eternity. Not so. I'm glad you read the Bible on a regular basis. Have you read the Gospel of John. It is often recommended for people who are new to the Bible so it should be an easy read for you. I get what you are saying re. loved ones in Heaven. I often think of that myself. You seem like a father who wants to give good things to his children. Wouldn't it be awesome if you made the decision to give your life to Jesus. Your children would see first hand how He is working in your life and would also want to be saved. Then, you would all be together in the Kingdom...just something to think about
Enjoy your reading.

 

[newname]

Hello, LostButTrying.

I admit I am a materialist and I do strive to keep my thinking as scientific as possible. I wouldn’t say thinking scientifically prevents me from “believing” in anything “spiritual.” I don’t actually believe in anything, period. I accept the existence of certain things based on my understanding of available evidence. If I thought there was good evidence for anything supernatural, I would accept its existence. If one of the characteristics of supernatural things is they do not offer confirmable evidence, then I can’t tell the difference between them and things that do not exist. In other words, I find it a distinction without a difference. Until I am shown some evidence of which I am unaware at the moment, the supernatural, including souls and spirits, does not exist.

I accept that spiritualism is a real EXPERIENCE shared by a great many people. But the popularity of those experiences is no way evidence for the existence of any supernatural underlying cause. Belief in a geocentric character of the universe was universal for, literally, ages. This was given over to a heliocentric view on the universe. As popular as this became it is still not a good description of the expanding universe in which we actually live.

You imply I must (or might) think subjective experiences such as love aren’t real. I can only counter I find love an altogether real thing, the defining bedrock of all my important relationships. I value it, rely upon it and I would be quite crippled without it. For my part I would offer love (and all emotions) is a very peculiarly animalistic state of consciousness, and then only among a select few varieties of animals. I don’t think oysters feel love. I am quite convinced dogs do. I have met dogs that show a great deal more love than many humans I know are even capable of. To me, this only makes sense if there are no souls. If I believed I HAVE a soul but dogs don’t, then the fact of love must have nothing to do with souls. I am aware of certain believers in the spiritual who think more “advanced” creatures (such as humans) have more “developed” souls than “lesser” beings like dogs. This includes devotees of Tibetan Buddhism and their belief in reincarnation and the karmic notion of progression from “lesser” to more sophisticated life forms over successive lives. My dog would be very surprised to learn she is a “lesser” form of life in any way (except I KNOW she craves opposable thumbs).

I definitely value the insights and experiences of other people, explaining my interactions here. I think such activity is worthwhile because, no matter how skeptical I may be, if there is any truth in Christianity, it is probably the single most important fact of the universe. That isn’t enough by itself to warrant much of my attention, but it is at least reasonable. However, regardless of how vanishingly unlikely I think it is, the fact remains my world is enormously influenced by Christian thinking. So understanding as much as I can about it seems worth the time and effort.

Thank you for the kind wishes on my quest. I hope yours is fruitful and rewarding in return.

Dogs don't have an ego and aren't fallen. There are dogs that sacrificed their life to save others. That's the purest form of love. Even a chicken protects her young. One let herself get burned to save her chickens.
You can see God in His creation.

 

[newname]

I am reading the Bible on a fairly constant basis.

My all-time favorite bits are Gen 2:15, the only part that tells why God created us and what our divinely determined duty is; and Job 1:7, Satan’s first appearance –– I am a writer and that is just one stellar way to debut a character.

You raise a lot of details I’d like to discuss, but before I go off on a tangent, I’d like to come to grips with your take on the whole “life everlasting” thing, especially as you say you come from a background not unlike where I find myself today.

I don’t find the notion of living forever in Heaven very attractive. For many years I did fear death. I feared on the one hand, if religion is at all true, I might be due for some serious punishment for all my imperfections. And on the other hand if it was not true and there would just be nothingness. Today, at age fifty, I haven’t come across anything that leads me to suspect there’ll be any continuation, good or bad, beyond death. And I no longer consider the prospect that death is simply an end to my identity with any sense of fear. I should say that I have had a few close calls with death in the last several years and since these I see it as a natural fact of life about which I can do nothing and, for me, it is enough to suffer as little as possible and enrich the lives of my loved ones ‘til then.

If any of the descriptions of Hell is real, it’s natural enough to want to avoid it. But neither do I think Heaven sounds all that appealing. Assume for a moment I accept Christ and strive to live in his ways the rest of my days, and I go to Heaven. Now what? I rejoice in the glory of God? Okay. Nice, I suppose. Perhaps I suffer a lack of imagination, but I can’t fathom how I’ll find that interesting for very long. Might I be reunited with my ancestors? Sure, I’d like to see SOME of them again. But most of my ancestors are strangers to me. And the ones I’d want to see will be as interested in seeing their parents (whom to me are strangers) as they are interested in seeing me. And what will we be doing together?

More importantly, I suppose you agree that every person’s admission to Heaven depends upon their individual choice to accept Christ, yes? So, after I die, IF I am allowed into Heaven, there is a chance my children won’t make the cut. That, for me, is a non-starter, right there. If Heaven is a place of limitless bliss, I could never find acceptance. If I were admitted, but my children were not, any bliss I could find would be DECIDEDLY limited. I have been told that I will be treated to such ecstasies I won’t care if my children are in Hell. But if this is so, I wouldn’t be me, hence the me I am today has no use for Paradise.

Furthermore, if apostates are sent to eternal punishment, and my children did not believe but I did, I would insist upon accepting punishment for them, or at least one of them, on their behalf. I would happily exchange eternity in Heaven for eternity in Hell if it meant sparing my children that torment. If that exchange is unacceptable in the eyes of God, then I take issue with his contention that Jesus could do as much for me. And I wouldn’t even insist upon saving EVERYBODY (though I would if I could). I would simply ask that my kids be spared such severe judgment.

So far as I’ve been able to reason it out, if this is the proposition confronting me and to forbear accepting my offered sacrifice on behalf of my children would be unacceptable according to the standards of God’s love, I don’t see his love as something I need very much.

I expect you see some mountainous flaw in my reasoning. Could you please point it out? I may not believe in God, but if I ever do, that belief will still be nettled by this paradox.

If you get saved, your kids will get saved too if you pray for them. Why on earth would we choose to go to hell cause others could maybe go there? Better to just all go to heaven. It's nonsense to say you won't care. What kind of parent would not care? I believe in household and family salvation.

 

[LostButTrying]

I'm not suggesting you don't think love is real, I'm suggesting that love is most certainly real, though it is still in the same category of unprovable things such as spiritual things like gods or souls.

You can't have it both ways...
If you must have solid confirmable evidence before you believe in anything then how can you believe in love? Well, maybe you can believe in YOUR love, as you have experienced it directly, but how can you believe in MY love? I might be making it up, I can't prove it to you objectively. Therefore it is logical to say that nobody in the world apart from you had experienced love.. even though we have a word for it. It can't be proven by your standard.
If it has to be confirmable evidence, proven beyond belief, then not much that drives and motivates people survives that, or can be taken account of. Love, hate, sadness, joy... it's all in the the same category as unicorns.

(As a side note, Tibetan Buddhists do not believe in a permanent soul, or that there is an upward progression. It depends on your thoughts, speech and behaviour as to your rebirth. Human births are very rare, you are more likely to be reborn as an animal, a hungry ghost or a hell being. You could also be reborn as a god, or demi-god. But all those lives are temporary... you could spend a few billion years as a god but eventually die and be reborn as a beetle or whatever.
The aim of Buddhism is to escape the cycle of birth and death, and therefore not be reborn. Rather there is a some indefinable state beyond existence or non existence.)

 

[Wnl]

Hi Kirby, all these words, the confusion, wow.
I am simply going to give you food for thought.
The question is for us Christians and you seeking is to know the
mind of God, your question WHY? about everything.
A starter for ten as we say in England.
Everything is in reference to something else.
E.g. You have a large box and a small box, large and small are in reference
to each other, take one away, then neither exists.
So most things exist and value there of (because of opposites )
This is a worldly simple example.

Now let's go to the garden where God put the spirits of good and evil
in the same tree, because God new one without the other cannot exist,
they are both in reference to each other, clever eh.
So to zoom on, the worlds system and selfishness, or sin, is opposite
to Jesus Christ our saviour, so you must go from one state to another state,
Jesus Christ, (. states cannot exist without opposites, you cannot go from to)
So you have have the experience of sin to be a non sinner or you wouldn't
know the difference, neither could exist. (Born again new state)
A short example for you to ponder on.
To finish just think who made male and female of all species WOW.
With Love Wnl

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Hi Kirby, all these words, the confusion, wow.
I am simply going to give you food for thought.
The question is for us Christians and you seeking is to know the
mind of God, your question WHY? about everything.
A starter for ten as we say in England.
Everything is in reference to something else.
E.g. You have a large box and a small box, large and small are in reference
to each other, take one away, then neither exists.
So most things exist and value there of (because of opposites )
This is a worldly simple example.

Now let's go to the garden where God put the spirits of good and evil
in the same tree, because God new one without the other cannot exist,
they are both in reference to each other, clever eh.
So to zoom on, the worlds system and selfishness, or sin, is opposite
to Jesus Christ our saviour, so you must go from one state to another state,
Jesus Christ, (. states cannot exist without opposites, you cannot go from to)
So you have have the experience of sin to be a non sinner or you wouldn't
know the difference, neither could exist. (Born again new state)
A short example for you to ponder on.
To finish just think who made male and female of all species WOW.
With Love Wnl

Hi, Wnl. Thanks for the food for thought. A few thoughts in response.

1. I’m not sure I grasp what is peculiar to Christianity in the importance of relativism (good is best understood in contrast to bad, etc.). Are you suggesting without sin there can be no salvation? I don’t mean to call the notion into question. Just want to clarify. On that same head, just a point of detail, not all species of life are comprised of male and female genders. Millions reproduce asexually and many have multiple genders.

2. If your understanding IS, indeed, that salvation cannot be had without first knowing (being guilty of) sin, do you subscribe to the notion of “original sin,” that every human is born guilty of Adam and Eve’s transgression in the Garden? Or, in your opinion (I don’t insist you speak for all Christians everywhere), are humans born sinless and, over the course of their lives, inevitably commit sin and the account of the Fall in the Garden provides a cautionary tale for reference, as part of a course of study, if you will, for rehabilitation, ultimately culminating with one’s acceptance of Christ?

3. (Bonus question.) I don’t believe in any afterlife. I don’t reject the notion. If there is an afterlife, there is nothing I can do about it (acknowledging, however, what I do in this life may affect my lot in the hereafter). However, after many years giving it careful consideration, I don’t find anything appealing at the prospect. I don’t (or, at least, I THINK I don’t) base this attitude on my desire to live in sin without retribution. Honestly, I don’t think I sin very much by Christian standards. I strive not to lie, cheat, steal, etc. I aspire to being helpful and loving to all creatures, great and small. I admit, I am an inveterate apostate when it comes to the first five of the Ten Commandments. But, if I had a reasonable conviction in the existence of God, I would obey them or knowingly flout them at my peril. If you are convinced in the existence of an afterlife, could you please tell me why?

Thanks!

 

[Wnl]

Hi Kirby, I sent you a small taster, of which I could expand on,
but you see everything practically and not spiritual,(God is spirit).
You see, everything you see with your eyes will pass away, but
your spirit never dies, so why live to practical things as believe
you do. So at this time I'm sorry I can't help you.
With Love, Wnl

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Hi Kirby, I sent you a small taster, of which I could expand on,
but you see everything practically and not spiritual,(God is spirit).
You see, everything you see with your eyes will pass away, but
your spirit never dies, so why live to practical things as believe
you do. So at this time I'm sorry I can't help you.
With Love, Wnl

Don’t sell yourself short, Wnl. I have every confidence everything I see, and even everything I can’t, will ultimately pass away. It’s decidedly a comfort to know you can’t offer any good reason to doubt it.

 

[Wnl]

Ok Kirby, let's try another angle,
Everything you know, you have received, so you can't glory in anything
because it came from outside you.
If you accept this, you become humble and naked Like a child
God said come to me as a little child, all ears, all eyes full of humility
only then can you receive the fruits of God, empty of yourself.

I love to teach my grandchildren the truths of God, eg
All things made that you see came from the earth and water
The scientists only discover what God put here in the beginning
Everything that is made was first made from something unseen (a thought)
Everybody is invisible, just like God, because you don't know their fruits,
(What they are thinking).
And of course we then expand the subject, with loads of questions.

Can you see the difference between you and a child, they are happier
than us because they haven't been contaminated with stuff, and they haven't
got a know all attitude.

I will tell you personal stuff because it may help you.
When I was saved at the age of 43yrs. I was a hard nose business man
and money was my God. I changed completely to the stage that when
I saw or mention the name Jesus I used to cry uncontrollably till it hurt.
(I never cried before or had been to a church) I realised that I had 43yrs
in the world to cry about, I asked myself how could I have got life all wrong.
I humbled myself, that's the secret, that opens you up to the love of,
Jesus Christ.
Now can you reply without using all the knowledge that you have received
from elsewhere that I also used to glory in.
With Love, Wnl

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Ok Kirby, let's try another angle,
Everything you know, you have received, so you can't glory in anything
because it came from outside you.
If you accept this, you become humble and naked Like a child
God said come to me as a little child, all ears, all eyes full of humility
only then can you receive the fruits of God, empty of yourself.

I love to teach my grandchildren the truths of God, eg
All things made that you see came from the earth and water
The scientists only discover what God put here in the beginning
Everything that is made was first made from something unseen (a thought)
Everybody is invisible, just like God, because you don't know their fruits,
(What they are thinking).
And of course we then expand the subject, with loads of questions.

Can you see the difference between you and a child, they are happier
than us because they haven't been contaminated with stuff, and they haven't
got a know all attitude.

I will tell you personal stuff because it may help you.
When I was saved at the age of 43yrs. I was a hard nose business man
and money was my God. I changed completely to the stage that when
I saw or mention the name Jesus I used to cry uncontrollably till it hurt.
(I never cried before or had been to a church) I realised that I had 43yrs
in the world to cry about, I asked myself how could I have got life all wrong.
I humbled myself, that's the secret, that opens you up to the love of,
Jesus Christ.
Now can you reply without using all the knowledge that you have received
from elsewhere that I also used to glory in.
With Love, Wnl

First of all, please accept my honest congratulations that you have come late(ish) in life to find meaning and beauty in more than financial accomplishment.

I have made quite a deliberate project of learning as much as I can about the world and about what people in it believe and why. Early in that process I was struck with a keen awareness of and respect for my lack of relative ignorance in virtually all things. If that is what you mean by “humility,” though I won’t claim it for certain, I do aspire to it assiduously.

I have no gods. Neither of any supernatural character nor of the material type of Mammon you describe. I suppose one could say I once placed I higher premium on a list of superficial vanities than I do today (career, looks, romance), but I never held any of them as some fixed “Polaris” to guide my destiny.

These days, my preoccupations are entirely simple: the health and happinesses of my children and loved ones, justice for any whom I may be able to help, and the health of the world around us.

When I say I am atheist, I simply mean I see no evidence for the existence of anything supernatural, including any deities. If there IS a God, I come to that conclusion using the (admittedly imperfect) intellectual capacity with which he endowed me. It would strike me as very peculiar if I am NOT supposed to use that intellect to the best of my ability. Often Christians implore me, instead, to “think about it spiritually,” or “with a truly open heart.” If these mean “decide to believe BEFORE there is reasonable evidence,” I’m afraid I am at a loss. And, at least in this case, my loss is God’s loss. I don’t even know how to make a deliberate decision to believe in anything Without reason. Indeed, this line of conversation emerges so often, and comes to loggerheads so frequently, I have adopted stating the pat policy I do not “believe” in anything at all. Not in gravity, not in rain, not even in myself. These are things about which I consider to have a reasonable conviction they exist. Such a stance seems plainly extreme and absolutist. But at least I can defend it more credibly than any excuse I don’t “believe” in God simply because I don’t “feel like he’s real.”

Still, I am interested in the basis of your own faith. Forgive me pressing on the topic. I take it you believe in the existence of human souls. (If not, please just say so and I’m happy to leave it at that.) if you do believe in the existence of the soul, do you also believe it is (or can be) eternal, persisting after physical death? Finally, if all this is so, did you believe it before your conversion at age 43? Or were these beliefs an integral component of that personal revelation.

Thanks for any thoughts.

 

[Shutterbug]

Hi Kirby. How are you keeping these days? Not unlike me, I see you maintain contact on this forum although it leads me to ponder if there is something missing in your life that no one other than the Good Lord himself can satisfy. I don't have the answers, and it's very likely I don't understand the question.

I concur beyond a doubt that God physically revealing himself would dissolve much mystery regarding his existence as there would be no doubt about it. Present day would be much different as we know it. The Old Testament contains a passage which describes the rebellion and subsequent fall of a very important angel. I realize it is likely meant for King Nebuchadnezzar, but it seems to go the root cause of his situation. Namely, what caused Nebuchadnezzar to fall out of favour? It seems it was his pride, much the same as the former chief angel named Lucifer who became an enemy of God.

God could have simply and directly placed those who initially rebelled against him directly into torment and we would have never known the difference. From that point on, we would be forced to things his way. But, God used thats rebellion to determine a better outcome of choosing either a conscripted or a voluntary soldier. By giving us the freedom to choose, we deomstrate our desire regarding the things He desires. Of course, we're also given the choice of opting out of that using any number of reasons. Ultimately, we choose to follow our will and in essence, become our own god. You do believe in yourself, do you not?

Because we're imperfect, it is God's grace that allows us to approach him and it is his grace which sustains us. All we're required to do is believe he can change us for the better. It's that simple. He even provided the means to do it and has offered to do the heavy work for us. All we have to do is give him a chance through our faith and willingness to follow. What stops us is our pride, the same thing which caused Lucifer to rebel. It also stops preachers from achieving their best, and it stops believers as a whole from maturing into a better understanding of God.

I didn't come here to preach to you. There is no halo over my head. I just wanted you to know that regardless of what others do with the gifts which God has provided them, you have the same entitlement through the blood of Jesus as the believers to show what God can really do if we let him. No one else can make that choice for you. All I can is that those who choose against God will be cast out as unwanted garbage. Cheers, John

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Hi Kirby. How are you keeping these days? Not unlike me, I see you maintain contact on this forum although it leads me to ponder if there is something missing in your life that no one other than the Good Lord himself can satisfy. I don't have the answers, and it's very likely I don't understand the question.

I concur beyond a doubt that God physically revealing himself would dissolve much mystery regarding his existence as there would be no doubt about it. Present day would be much different as we know it. The Old Testament contains a passage which describes the rebellion and subsequent fall of a very important angel. I realize it is likely meant for King Nebuchadnezzar, but it seems to go the root cause of his situation. Namely, what caused Nebuchadnezzar to fall out of favour? It seems it was his pride, much the same as the former chief angel named Lucifer who became an enemy of God.

God could have simply and directly placed those who initially rebelled against him directly into torment and we would have never known the difference. From that point on, we would be forced to things his way. But, God used thats rebellion to determine a better outcome of choosing either a conscripted or a voluntary soldier. By giving us the freedom to choose, we deomstrate our desire regarding the things He desires. Of course, we're also given the choice of opting out of that using any number of reasons. Ultimately, we choose to follow our will and in essence, become our own god. You do believe in yourself, do you not?

Because we're imperfect, it is God's grace that allows us to approach him and it is his grace which sustains us. All we're required to do is believe he can change us for the better. It's that simple. He even provided the means to do it and has offered to do the heavy work for us. All we have to do is give him a chance through our faith and willingness to follow. What stops us is our pride, the same thing which caused Lucifer to rebel. It also stops preachers from achieving their best, and it stops believers as a whole from maturing into a better understanding of God.

I didn't come here to preach to you. There is no halo over my head. I just wanted you to know that regardless of what others do with the gifts which God has provided them, you have the same entitlement through the blood of Jesus as the believers to show what God can really do if we let him. No one else can make that choice for you. All I can is that those who choose against God will be cast out as unwanted garbage. Cheers, John

Hi, John. Thanks for checking in and for the kind thoughts.

My reasons for staying active here are manifold. Obviously, I am quite interested in discussing the nature of existence. While I do have personal friends who are religious, very few of them enjoy such conversations. Also, there is no denying we live in a world, and in a part of the world, where the dominant worldview is (VERY broadly speaking) Christian. Rather than prejudging the opinions and motivations of people who hold that worldview, my hope is taking part in things like the TJF helps me see better eye-to-eye with Christians in other arenas. Also, I acknowledge that a fulcrum of the case for Christianity is: If it is true, it is without question the most important truth of the universe. I find the potential of that truth bearing out intriguing and, if it is indeed true, I want every available opportunity to accept it.

I can’t say I’m searching for any sense of life’s meaning I feel I lack. I can’t even concede I wish or I hope to come to accept Christianity. I have certain very strong doctrinal disagreements with the creed –– no need to get into those here unless you are so interested.

You ask, rhetorically I think, whether I believe in myself. It is a question I will answer, though. I don’t believe in myself. I don’t believe in anything. Some time ago, after countless go ‘rounds with religious people about whether and what I believe and what is even meant by belief, I realized my beliefs (here I’ll define them as “convictions based upon faith, irrespective of reason or evidence”) don’t matter in the least. I don’t believe in UFOs. Do UFOs exist? I don’t know. But whether they do or they don’t is not affected in the least by my belief in them. So, too, with the hereafter. And with God. No amount of belief or lack of belief can possibly affect the reality of these things.

There are things in which I have reasonable, and reasoned, confidence. I am convinced my wife and children love me. I am convinced I live in Brooklyn. My wife and children may not exist and I might be a madman banging on the walls of my padded cell in a Belgian sanitarium. But I am not convinced of that. Similarly, I am not convinced there are any gods. I don’t think it gives me any pride to say so, and, by my rationale, it shouldn’t. As I say, neither my conviction nor any belief regarding these things bears in any way as to whether they do. Neither reason for pride not shame. The best I can hope for is to discern the reality that surrounds me to the best of my ability and, hence, live my life accordingly.

Long as we’re chatting, with your indulgence, I’d ask a question. I’ll assume (and forgive me if I am mistaken) you believe in the human soul and its eternal nature. How, if at all, do you think your Christian faith would be affected were you to learn, to become convinced, there is no hereafter; that your identity (by whatever definition you’d care to use) ceased to exist at the time of your physical death?

If you’d rather not discuss it, no harm, no foul. And I hope you take no offense.

Thanks!

 

[Shutterbug]

Kirby D. P.
Hi, John. Thanks for checking in and for the kind thoughts.

I can’t say I’m searching for any sense of life’s meaning I feel I lack. I can’t even concede I wish or I hope to come to accept Christianity. I have certain very strong doctrinal disagreements with the creed –– no need to get into those here unless you are so interested.

You ask, rhetorically I think, whether I believe in myself. It is a question I will answer, though. I don’t believe in myself. I don’t believe in anything. Some time ago, after countless go ‘rounds with religious people about whether and what I believe and what is even meant by belief, I realized my beliefs (here I’ll define them as “convictions based upon faith, irrespective of reason or evidence”) don’t matter in the least. I don’t believe in UFOs. Do UFOs exist? I don’t know. But whether they do or they don’t is not affected in the least by my belief in them. So, too, with the hereafter. And with God. No amount of belief or lack of belief can possibly affect the reality of these things.

There are things in which I have reasonable, and reasoned, confidence. I am convinced my wife and children love me. I am convinced I live in Brooklyn. My wife and children may not exist and I might be a madman banging on the walls of my padded cell in a Belgian sanitarium. But I am not convinced of that. Similarly, I am not convinced there are any gods. I don’t think it gives me any pride to say so, and, by my rationale, it shouldn’t. As I say, neither my conviction nor any belief regarding these things bears in any way as to whether they do. Neither reason for pride not shame. The best I can hope for is to discern the reality that surrounds me to the best of my ability and, hence, live my life accordingly.While I could have stated it clearer, it wasn't rhetorical.

It was more about self confidence without requiring help from others and which you have answered.

Long as we’re chatting, with your indulgence, I’d ask a question. I’ll assume (and forgive me if I am mistaken) you believe in the human soul and its eternal nature. How, if at all, do you think your Christian faith would be affected were you to learn, to become convinced, there is no hereafter; that your identity (by whatever definition you’d care to use) ceased to exist at the time of your physical death?

If it were all a dream, I'd lose nothing knowing I would not be judged as to whether I'd be eligible for eternal life according to a book. And, no different than any other boy or girl on the playground. I could even justify a clear conscience through trying to a good person despite the propensity of some to challenge that. As there would be no after life, my last sentence would have no consequence for anything whether I lived as a saint or a sadistic mass murderer.. Zero consequences. If it does exist, then a whole other set of dynamics comes into play.

While we can use our five sense to make very limited determinations about God, we need his help in learning about his nature. Job thought he had God figured out. David did his absolute best to know the heart of God. Neither succeeded. The only person who had it figured out was Jesus and even those who spent the most time with him didn't get it until much later.

It's odd that you should ask. On those rare opportunities I can go to church, two Sundays ago was the day before Remembrance Day (Veterans Day). Some members of the Elmsdale Legion attended with a smalll colour ceremony marking the occasion. This particular service was also a communion service complete with normal and gluten free breads. At the beginning of the service, a lady about my age had sat down next to me. No idea who she is, but wore a wedding ring so I didn't read anything into it. After she returned from going up for communion, she asked me why I never went up. I replied, "I didn't go up because I have an unshakable feeling that on Judgement Day I will be asked if I like warm places. But, I'm still here (in church)". Her response was to pat my leg and that was the end of it.

If you’d rather not discuss it, no harm, no foul. And I hope you take no offense.

It requires quite a bit to hurt my feelings. Take care.

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Kirby D. P.
Hi, John. Thanks for checking in and for the kind thoughts.

I can’t say I’m searching for any sense of life’s meaning I feel I lack. I can’t even concede I wish or I hope to come to accept Christianity. I have certain very strong doctrinal disagreements with the creed –– no need to get into those here unless you are so interested.

You ask, rhetorically I think, whether I believe in myself. It is a question I will answer, though. I don’t believe in myself. I don’t believe in anything. Some time ago, after countless go ‘rounds with religious people about whether and what I believe and what is even meant by belief, I realized my beliefs (here I’ll define them as “convictions based upon faith, irrespective of reason or evidence”) don’t matter in the least. I don’t believe in UFOs. Do UFOs exist? I don’t know. But whether they do or they don’t is not affected in the least by my belief in them. So, too, with the hereafter. And with God. No amount of belief or lack of belief can possibly affect the reality of these things.

There are things in which I have reasonable, and reasoned, confidence. I am convinced my wife and children love me. I am convinced I live in Brooklyn. My wife and children may not exist and I might be a madman banging on the walls of my padded cell in a Belgian sanitarium. But I am not convinced of that. Similarly, I am not convinced there are any gods. I don’t think it gives me any pride to say so, and, by my rationale, it shouldn’t. As I say, neither my conviction nor any belief regarding these things bears in any way as to whether they do. Neither reason for pride not shame. The best I can hope for is to discern the reality that surrounds me to the best of my ability and, hence, live my life accordingly.While I could have stated it clearer, it wasn't rhetorical.

It was more about self confidence without requiring help from others and which you have answered.

Long as we’re chatting, with your indulgence, I’d ask a question. I’ll assume (and forgive me if I am mistaken) you believe in the human soul and its eternal nature. How, if at all, do you think your Christian faith would be affected were you to learn, to become convinced, there is no hereafter; that your identity (by whatever definition you’d care to use) ceased to exist at the time of your physical death?

If it were all a dream, I'd lose nothing knowing I would not be judged as to whether I'd be eligible for eternal life according to a book. And, no different than any other boy or girl on the playground. I could even justify a clear conscience through trying to a good person despite the propensity of some to challenge that. As there would be no after life, my last sentence would have no consequence for anything whether I lived as a saint or a sadistic mass murderer.. Zero consequences. If it does exist, then a whole other set of dynamics comes into play.

While we can use our five sense to make very limited determinations about God, we need his help in learning about his nature. Job thought he had God figured out. David did his absolute best to know the heart of God. Neither succeeded. The only person who had it figured out was Jesus and even those who spent the most time with him didn't get it until much later.

It's odd that you should ask. On those rare opportunities I can go to church, two Sundays ago was the day before Remembrance Day (Veterans Day). Some members of the Elmsdale Legion attended with a smalll colour ceremony marking the occasion. This particular service was also a communion service complete with normal and gluten free breads. At the beginning of the service, a lady about my age had sat down next to me. No idea who she is, but wore a wedding ring so I didn't read anything into it. After she returned from going up for communion, she asked me why I never went up. I replied, "I didn't go up because I have an unshakable feeling that on Judgement Day I will be asked if I like warm places. But, I'm still here (in church)". Her response was to pat my leg and that was the end of it.

If you’d rather not discuss it, no harm, no foul. And I hope you take no offense.

It requires quite a bit to hurt my feelings. Take care.

“ If it does exist, then a whole other set of dynamics comes into play.”

Speaking as someone who is convinced this is the very situation I expect i am in, let me say I don’t think this is necessarily so. I mean, yes, there are Biblical injunctions I don’t observe. However, with the very signal exception of venerating a deity, I can’t think how I would live my life any differently. Only, rather than expecting some eternal dividend (good or bad) for my Earthly record, I feel I am being judged all the time on an ongoing basis. I suppose one simple response is this means I am actually judging myself, and I am not “authorized” to do that. But aren’t Christians forced to make some provisional sense of self judgement, using no less flawed a set of standards, until death and their “proper” Judgement?

 

[Wnl]

Hi Kirby, scripture that will give you peace, and maybe you will sleep better.

There is one God and one mediator between God and man ( all mankind),
the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for ALL ( mankind)
to be testified in due time ( 1Tim 2: 5-6)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour; who will
have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and come to the knowledge of the truth
( 1Tim 2: 3:4

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the
living God, who is the saviour of ALL MEN specially ( specially does not
mean exclusively) of the truth.(1 Tim 4:10).

THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY BELIEVERS

You are one of the ALL men Kirby, you will be saved into a new spiritual
life. You will go from practical body to a new spiritual body,

To try and answer your question I was like you, I would laugh to scorn
when I passed a sign, saying Jesus loves me, or Jesus is alive.
I didn't want to be a Christian, but I New I was changing for three years,
I said to my wife what's happening to me, l am starting to look at nature and the
like. A Christian representative used to call in my business and always
left me little books on Jesus, I never read any, I didn't have time for anything.
Then my sister who is a Christian invited me to big Christian meeting
I was in the balcony, a man came and spoke to me and said, " are we going
to see more of you" , I said I'm going to put my life in order first,
He looked me in the eye and said ,give your life to Jesus and He will put
your life in order.( he was the pastor I found out later).
A few weeks later at 7:30 in the morning I woke crying, got on my knees
and said to my wife Jesus loves me and He loves you too.
My life completely changed from that moment.
I was Saturday the next day I went to the church, at the end of the
meeting l asked the pastor if I could speak, he said come up.
I said I thought that I had everything, but now I realise I haven't
but I have now I've got Jesus.

But no I didn't think about the after life till I matured in the Lord,
The scripture above speaks for itself.
Some Christians question this scripture, but its bulletproof, they can't
get their head round that my loving God who is going to save all creation,
because it doesn't tie in with the word Hell where they believe sinners
billions of people for billions upon billions of years are literally going to be
punished and not saved
The English word Hell should be interpreted Gehenna fire( judgement).
The word Hell is slowly being removed from most bibles.

Scripture says that I choose you, or draw you to Him, as He did me.
You do not choose to be a Christian, it's not your choice.

Hope this helps your inquisitive mind, God says renew you mind,
With Love, Wnl

 

[Kirby D. P.]

Hi Kirby, scripture that will give you peace, and maybe you will sleep better.

There is one God and one mediator between God and man ( all mankind),
the man Christ Jesus; who gave Himself a ransom for ALL ( mankind)
to be testified in due time ( 1Tim 2: 5-6)

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our saviour; who will
have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED and come to the knowledge of the truth
( 1Tim 2: 3:4

This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the
living God, who is the saviour of ALL MEN specially ( specially does not
mean exclusively) of the truth.(1 Tim 4:10).

THE SAVIOUR OF ALL MEN, SPECIALLY BELIEVERS

You are one of the ALL men Kirby, you will be saved into a new spiritual
life. You will go from practical body to a new spiritual body,

To try and answer your question I was like you, I would laugh to scorn
when I passed a sign, saying Jesus loves me, or Jesus is alive.
I didn't want to be a Christian, but I New I was changing for three years,
I said to my wife what's happening to me, l am starting to look at nature and the
like. A Christian representative used to call in my business and always
left me little books on Jesus, I never read any, I didn't have time for anything.
Then my sister who is a Christian invited me to big Christian meeting
I was in the balcony, a man came and spoke to me and said, " are we going
to see more of you" , I said I'm going to put my life in order first,
He looked me in the eye and said ,give your life to Jesus and He will put
your life in order.( he was the pastor I found out later).
A few weeks later at 7:30 in the morning I woke crying, got on my knees
and said to my wife Jesus loves me and He loves you too.
My life completely changed from that moment.
I was Saturday the next day I went to the church, at the end of the
meeting l asked the pastor if I could speak, he said come up.
I said I thought that I had everything, but now I realise I haven't
but I have now I've got Jesus.

But no I didn't think about the after life till I matured in the Lord,
The scripture above speaks for itself.
Some Christians question this scripture, but its bulletproof, they can't
get their head round that my loving God who is going to save all creation,
because it doesn't tie in with the word Hell where they believe sinners
billions of people for billions upon billions of years are literally going to be
punished and not saved
The English word Hell should be interpreted Gehenna fire( judgement).
The word Hell is slowly being removed from most bibles.

Scripture says that I choose you, or draw you to Him, as He did me.
You do not choose to be a Christian, it's not your choice.

Hope this helps your inquisitive mind, God says renew you mind,
With Love, Wnl

Thank you for the food for thought. I promise I shall consider it.

 

[Butch5]

Thank you for the food for thought. I promise I shall consider it.

Hi Kirby,

I don't hold a lot of the positions that many mainstream Christians do. That being said I'd be happy to discuss Christianity with you. Where would you like to start?