Heaven after hell?

[Sue D.]

@Br.Bear -- I'll simply refrain from responding to any more of KingJ's posts.

 

[Br. Bear]

Pursue peace with everyone, as well as holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
Hebrews 12:14

Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Romans 14:19

 

[Sue D.]

@Br.Bear -- the one way to pursue peace is to not connect with him anymore. Not on purpose, at least.

 

[KingJ]

@King J -- It must be rough on you -- being the only person who rightly divides the Word of Truth / God.

If you arrive at a belief that paints God as wicked, you need to keep quiet, pray for insight and study further.

Prophets that knew God well, that were entrusted to pen scripture, said the following of God:

Give thanks because He is good Psalm 136:1
God is righteous in all His ways Psalm 145:17
God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5
God is impartial Acts 10:34

This is the A-Z disagreement I have with you Sue. You do not consider who God is when you read controversial scripture. We should not teach our personal interpretation and opinion with no consideration to the picture of God we are presenting to the lost.

It is wise to err on the cautious side as miss-representing God to the lost that He died for is surely a capital crime.

 

[KingJ]

Pursue peace with everyone, as well as holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.
Hebrews 12:14

Br Bear, this verse hits hard. What a find. ''Without which no one will see the Lord''.

Wake-up coffee for a Friday morning .

Thanks for sharing, will definitely keep it in mind.

 

[Sue D.]

@Br Bear -- it's comments like KingJ makes like in post 224 -- at me -- that makes my blood broil at times. He and I are like oil and water.

He does not bring in the fact that God Also destroyed Sodom and Gohmorrah because of their sins of open homosexuality. And destroyed the world with the flood because man had become so exceedingly evil.

He tends to want to redefine who God is -- to fit his desires. And those who don't agree with him, King J. , it's because they're not digging deeply enough in Scripture.

And he tends to down-play just how bad hell / lake of fire and brimstone will be. The whaling and gnashing of teeth.

I'm bringing these things up to You, Not to KingJ -- not to continue with the discussion, just to present my thoughts Here, rather than in the Conversation area.

If KingJ wants to approach in the Conversation area, that's up to him. But I won't be continuing addressing him in Forum.

 

[KingJ]

@Br Bear -- it's comments like KingJ makes like in post 224 -- at me -- that makes my blood broil at times. He and I are like oil and water.

He does not bring in the fact that God Also destroyed Sodom and Gohmorrah because of their sins of open homosexuality. And destroyed the world with the flood because man had become so exceedingly evil.

He tends to want to redefine who God is -- to fit his desires. And those who don't agree with him, King J. , it's because they're not digging deeply enough in Scripture.

And he tends to down-play just how bad hell / lake of fire and brimstone will be. The whaling and gnashing of teeth.

I'm bringing these things up to You, Not to KingJ -- not to continue with the discussion, just to present my thoughts Here, rather than in the Conversation area.

If KingJ wants to approach in the Conversation area, that's up to him. But I won't be continuing addressing him in Forum.

If I did not teach on Sodom, I would be guilty of miss-representing God. I do. But, we need to look at the facts.

He did destroy them because their sins were grievous Gen 18:20. I agree with you. You have said sin = sin, fullstop in the past. I am glad to see you now believe in grievous sins. Mortal sins.

What god bashes bring up against God with regards to Sodom is that 'God was merciless and a mental case as He killed all the innocent animals and children''.

So, now, after reading some Christian's / your posts, I see Christians espouse similar and cannot / do not defend God's actions.

You and others (@BAC) would teach and support the notion that God was merciless with the wicked. You want to push the narration / draw a picture of God being good and occasionally merciless. A mix of good and bad. This is just not true. He is only good and righteous in all His ways. You basically do the devils job when you miss-represent Him.

God was patient with Sodom. He agreed and grasped that their sins were grievous. So He destroyed them, swiftly. The word ''swiftly'' is key to grasp as any prolonged suffering is torture and nobody can defend God as good if He tortures His enemy. Repaying evil with evil is evil. This is where you and BAC seem to go in your posts. I would love for you to say to me ''No we don't, we agree that God does not torture, repay evil with evil''.

Note how scripture says Sodom was destroyed within a day and the fires were like a furnace and dense smoke rose. This all speaks to a swift destruction.

Note how they were destroyed within a day Luke 17:28-30 but on the day that Lot went out from Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. It will be just the same on the day that the Son of Man is revealed

Gen 19:28 He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

Death by fire for Sodomites was painful but not torturous. With that amount of smoke, you would die from inhaling the smoke before the fire would burn you. I have researched this before and found it to be a short death. Even if you are burnt alive. Your brain is said to switch off when it grasps their is no getting out of it.

So, as Christians we need to correct the god bashers and not join them. We are ambassadors of God. We should know God. God is merciful in that He gives the people of Sodom a swift death and promises to one-day properly judge each according to what they did Rom 2:6. This is important to grasp as on face value it also appears as though God dishes out capital punishment on all. God takes all children and animals to heaven. Their death is sadly always linked to the free will of wicked adults. We see His desire for animals with Nineveh in Jonah 4:11 and children in Matt 19:14.

God is light with NO darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. We all need to meditate on this verse before we make posts that suggest otherwise.

 

[B-A-C]

God is light with NO darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. We all need to meditate on this verse before we make posts that suggest otherwise.

Not punishing the wicked would make Him darkness.

James 2:10; For whoever keeps the whole Law, yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all.
James 2:11; For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do murder, you have become a violator of the Law.
James 2:12; So speak, and so act, as those who are to be judged by the law of freedom.
James 2:13; For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. ..... ( this is speaking of OUR mercy, not His )
James 2:14; What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
Heb 10:28; Anyone who has ignored the Law of Moses is put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29; How much more severe punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

If some people truly change. Love God, feed the hungry, clothe the poor, help the sick...
and others hate, insult, physically and mentally abuse, are sexually unfaithful, and selfish....
...if God treats both these people the same, that is not a fair and just God. That is darkness.
I've meditated and prayed upon your verse several times. With full awareness this could even apply to me.
God will not allow these people to go unpunished.

Matt 25:45; Then He will answer them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for Me, either.’
Matt 25:46; These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

These people weren't even especially wicked by some standards, all they did was "nothing" in a sense.
The word "eternal" is in this verse twice, it is the exact same word both times.

It is the exact same length of time, in both instances. If "eternal" punishment is only for a few seconds, then "eternal" life is only for a few seconds.

 

[B-A-C]

For any doctrine to be valid, it has to agree with the 'ENTIRE' Bible.
That means for a doctrine to be valid, has to allow for 'eternal punishment'.

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
Rev 14:12; Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

The people who take the mark of the beast or worship him... are "tormented with fire and brimstone" not for a few seconds. "forever and ever; they have no rest day and night" ... FOREVER.

Jesus says angels cannot die.
Luke 20:35; but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
Luke 20:36; for they cannot even die anymore, for they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

Jude 1:6; And angels who did not keep their own domain but abandoned their proper dwelling place, these He has kept in eternal restraints under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these angels indulged in sexual perversion and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

The angels in Jude who indulged in sexual perversion.... they cannot die. They are in the punishment of "eternal" fire.

So either Jesus was lying when He said they can't die anymore... or the punishment is ... "eternal".

 

[KingJ]

Not punishing the wicked would make Him darkness.

Depends on punishment. Good people pioneered the Geneva convention for their treatment of the enemy that wants to steal, kill and destroy.

James 2:10; For whoever keeps the whole Law, yet stumbles in one point, has become guilty of all.
James 2:11; For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do murder, you have become a violator of the Law.
James 2:12; So speak, and so act, as those who are to be judged by the law of freedom.
James 2:13; For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. ..... ( this is speaking of OUR mercy, not His )
James 2:14; What use is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone says he has faith, but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Why would you underline this passage? You are underlining it to push your narration of God being merciless to the wicked? The context, if you underlined the prior verses too, is that each are rewarded according to what they did. A merciless judge for example will be rewarded with similar. This does not equate to God being merciless. Mercilessness is wickedness. If God was a merciless judge, according to this scripture you have quoted, someone needs to then judge God and show Him no mercy. Please tell me you do realize this? This is just terrible discernment and a most classic example of manipulating scripture.

 

[B-A-C]

Depends on punishment. Good people pioneered the Geneva convention for their treatment of the enemy that wants to steal, kill and destroy.

"good people" aren't God.

Why would you underline this passage? You are underlining it to push your narration of God being merciless to the wicked? The context, if you underlined the prior verses too, is that each are rewarded according to what they did.

I am not discounting any other parts of those verses, yes God will reward some people. I am not disagreeing with any part of those verses, I am simply pointing out, for some people judgment will be merciless.

someone needs to then judge God and show Him no mercy. Please tell me you do realize this?

When you standing before Him, feel free to judge away. ( it appears you are already judging Him now, by your standards )

I sincerely hope I never try to put myself in a place to judge God. Whether I agree with what He does or not, whether it makes sense to me or not. I think that is a dangerous place to be.

 

[KingJ]

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries.
Heb 10:28; Anyone who has ignored the Law of Moses is put to death without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29; How much more severe punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Now you underlined '''terrifying'''. God is a God of '''terror'''.

We ''have'' to accompany such a passage with a detailed explanation or other scripture for context. If we preach and read this verse ''as is'' it paints God as Ivan the terrible who will mercilessly burn his enemy. Evil with evil.

The context, takes a knowledge of many scriptures. Scriptures I know you know. Yet you '''don't'' accompany them with this verse. Why? That is what god bashers do. You know scripture well, yet you cherry pick the most sensitive, add them all together and paint God as the height of wickedness.

Heb 10:27 ' 'Terrifying expectation''. The reality of eternal separation is terrifying. There is no getting away from that. When the wicked grasp they are wicked and that they will be eternally separated from God and all His saints, it is terrible news to digest. A reality they will battle to come to terms with.

Heb 10:27 '''the fury of fire which will consume the adversaries'''. Well we know that the people of Sodom were consumed by fire. Consumed implies annihilation. We know that those in hell will live forever. So clearly the context is not annihilation. As such consumed would mean surrounded by. Living in. Unable to escape a fire. A lot like what we read with the rich man and Lazarus. As I have already explained, this consuming fire was upon the rich man before judgement day. Heb 10:27 does not link judgement to fury of fire. It does not say ''once judged they will be put on fire''. It says ''and'' there is a fury of fire. So here too we see that fire is not a direct punishment for actual sin in the context of a verse like Rom 2:6. God does not punish with fire for a sin. The rich man being on fire prior to judgement day points to fire being a consequence of sin. An inescapable inevitability for those who don't have Jesus.. A real fire, but not a suffering we can parallel to a human being thrown into a fire that does not cease. As I have explained a couple times in posts in this thread and here The fires of hell.

Heb 10:31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Yes it is, especially for someone who knew of Jesus and scripture on heaven. ''Had a taste of heaven''. Those who love the darkness, will be happier in hell then in heaven. Fact.

As God is just and righteous in all His ways, If I was wicked, I would want Him to be my judge. I know that I will be judged by the most righteous, fair, loving, kind, merciful Being in all existence. Not someone like ''Ivan the terrible'' or ''Nero''. These are the names that come to the minds of the lost when they hear you teach on hell BAC.

 

[B-A-C]

Job 38

Job 38
1 Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind and said,
2 “Who is this who darkens the divine plan
By words without knowledge?
3 Now tighten the belt on your waist like a man,
And I shall ask you, and you inform Me!
4 Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding,
5 Who set its measurements? Since you know.
Or who stretched the measuring line over it?
6 On what were its bases sunk?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who enclosed the sea with doors
When it went out from the womb, bursting forth;
9 When I made a cloud its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling bands,
10 And I placed boundaries on it
And set a bolt and doors,
11 And I said, ‘As far as this point you shall come, but no farther;
And here your proud waves shall stop’?
God’s Mighty Power
12 “Have you ever in your life commanded the morning,
And made the dawn know its place,
13 So that it would take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked would be shaken off from it?
14 It is changed like clay under the seal;
And they stand out like a garment.
15 Their light is withheld from the wicked,
And the uplifted arm is broken.
16 “Have you entered the springs of the sea,
And walked in the depth of the ocean?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you,
And have you seen the gates of deep darkness?
18 Have you understood the expanse of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.

 

[B-A-C]

We ''have'' to accompany such a passage with a detailed explanation or other scripture for context. If we preach and read this verse ''as is'' it paints God as Ivan the terrible who will mercilessly burn his enemy. Evil with evil.

I am merely quoting scripture. I am not painting anything. Yes I underlined a part of it, but even if I don't underline it, it still says the same thing.

Heb 10:27 ''Terrifying expectation''. The reality of eternal separation is terrifying.

It doesn't say "judgment and eternal separation" it says "judgment and the fury of a fire".

You are changing scripture here.

People are no more separated from God in hell, than they are right now. We are separated from God by our sin ( Isa 59:2; )
But God is even in hell. God is everywhere.

Psa 139:7; Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139;8; If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

God is equally in hell, just as much as He is in heaven. There is no place we can go where He doesn't exist.

 

[KingJ]

"good people" aren't God.

With a statement like that you make God out to be a devil. How can you make a statement like that?

This implies that He can be wicked, but because He is God He will get away with it.

No BAC. God's understanding of what is right and wrong is known by us too. Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."

Abraham, a good man, judged God on the destruction of Sodom, Moses on the punishment for those who worshiped the golden calf and both ''agreed'' with God and what punishment He dealt on them.

You also quoted a verse earlier that said '''the angels''' will watch as God punishes the wicked. God has got nothing to hide. He does not want to do something we or the angels will see as wicked! He wants us to see what He does, as He wants us to know He is NOT wicked.

 

[KingJ]

I am merely quoting scripture. I am not painting anything. Yes I underlined a part of it, but even if I don't underline it, it still says the same thing.

When you underline it and cherry pick sensitive scripture you are pushing a narrative.

Example:

Original: Jack stole a loaf of bread from a bakery. Jack was a hungry and homeless orphan.

You: Jack stole a loaf of bread from a bakery. ''He stole it guys. Thieves will NOT be in heaven!!!. Paul says this many times!!!''.

''I am just quoting scripture, so what if I underline it'''.

 

[B-A-C]

With a statement like that you make God out to be a devil. How can you make a statement like that?

This implies that He can be wicked, but because He is God He will get away with it.

You misunderstand me, I apologize.

God is not wicked. Period.

However "good people" are. No matter how "good" some people are, they will never be as good, and Holy, and righteous as God.

 

[B-A-C]

When you underline it and cherry pick sensitive scripture you are pushing a narrative.

Example:

Original: Jack stole a loaf of bread from a bakery. Jack was a hungry and homeless orphan.

You: Jack stole a loaf of bread from a bakery. ''He stole it guys. Thieves will NOT be in heaven!!!. Paul says this many times!!!''.

''I am just quoting scripture, so what if I underline it'''.

I underline it, so you will know which part I am emphasizing, it's only cherry picking if it conflicts with the context around it.
I also underline it because some people have a tendency to "paraphrase" and "change wording" such as from "fury of a fire" to "separation".

But underlining does not change the meaning of the verse.

 

[KingJ]

It doesn't say "judgment and eternal separation" it says "judgment and the fury of a fire".

You are changing scripture here.

According to Luke 13:28, the most terrifying thing about hell, the thing that causes you to weep and gnash your teeth is separation.

There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.

People are no more separated from God in hell, than they are right now. We are separated from God by our sin ( Isa 59:2; )
But God is even in hell. God is everywhere.

Psa 139:7; Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139;8; If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

God is equally in hell, just as much as He is in heaven. There is no place we can go where He doesn't exist.

I accept that God can visit hell. He is God.

My context of separation is only per Luke 13:28.

 

[KingJ]

However "good people" are. No matter how "good" some people are, they will never be as good, and Holy, and righteous as God.

This I agree with, but now properly apply this logic to hell.

If ''good'' people on earth can pioneer the Geneva convention for treatment of their enemy who wanted them gassed, raped, starved, killed and destroyed....how much more fair treatment and pleasantries can we expect from a God who is the very definition of the word ''love'', the word ''good'' and is righteous in all His ways.