Heaven after hell?

[Sue D.]

@B-A-C -- okay -- how long can You go without breaking a single one?

IF it was possible for people to Not break any of them Ever -- would there be a need For the cross?

1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Do you really believe a person can live in sinless perfection?

 

[B-A-C]

Do you really believe a person can live in sinless perfection?

I'm not there. I thank God for mercy and grace, but yes I do believe it's possible.

I don't think Jesus/God ever ask us to anything that isn't possible.

It was possible for Noah, Job, Cornelius, Zacharias, Elizabeth, Joseph, and a few others.

 

[B-A-C]

IF it was possible for people to Not break any of them Ever -- would there be a need For the cross?

You are changing things up here, this isn't what I said.
First we are all born into sin. Everyone sins!! Period.

No one is born saved. (well, John the Baptist might be an exception)
We are all slaves to sin until we accept Jesus.

But at some point we can be saved. We can have have the power of Holy Spirit within us.
I believe we can overcome sin at that point, but we couldn't do it without the cross.

After we are saved, we should be living differently than before we were saved.

But even if it was possible for a unsaved person to never sin... Faith is Jesus is still required.

I talk about "practicing" sin, and stumbling in some other threads. I talk about willful premeditated sins in some threads also.
Now it may not be possible to keep from accidental stumbles, but I know for an absolute fact, it IS possible to quit "practicing" sin.
I also know for a fact, is possible to overcome habitual willful sin.

Now while we can't stop sinning without Jesus.... is it possible we can "with Him"?

Php 4:13; I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

 

[Garee]

@Garee -- do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God? What belief system do you identify with?

With the one you mentioned .

Its something I am working on. . . the answer of faith . We are promised if he began that good teaching work in us he will finish it. No infalble humans I am a slow learner. .

What kind of importance would you give to properly distinguish in the use of the words . ." son of Man" and the phrase "Son of God"? Both are represented by One Spirit . . one faith as a labor of love. It cant be two sons as one first born of the brethern many sons .

It would seem to help distingush between forgiveness and no forgiveness . Ot r what you see and what you get

Could whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost be the same as whosoever speaks against the Son of God ? One in respect to what the eyes see and the other the unseen faith the power working in the Son of man ?

Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

A study of the use of the phrase "first born" and how it relates to "circumcision" And remember the Son of man Jesus replied his own flesh profits for zero .Many diciples walked away faithless . It can be a beneficial study .

 

[Sue D.]

You are changing things up here, this isn't what I said.
First we are all born into sin. Everyone sins!! Period.

No one is born saved. (well, John the Baptist might be an exception)
We are all slaves to sin until we accept Jesus.

But at some point we can be saved. We can have have the power of Holy Spirit within us.
I believe we can overcome sin at that point, but we couldn't do it without the cross.

After we are saved, we should be living differently than before we were saved.

But even if it was possible for a unsaved person to never sin... Faith is Jesus is still required.

I talk about "practicing" sin, and stumbling in some other threads. I talk about willful premeditated sins in some threads also.
Now it may not be possible to keep from accidental stumbles, but I know for an absolute fact, it IS possible to quit "practicing" sin.
I also know for a fact, is possible to overcome habitual willful sin.

Now while we can't stop sinning without Jesus.... is it possible we can "with Him"?

Php 4:13; I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.

Up to a point I agree -- yes, at some point a person is saved and, as a result, has the power of the Holy Spirit within us.

And, yes, the cross gives us power to over-come satan's stronghold. We're no longer slaves To sin at that point.

And, yes, we Should be living differently as a result. Now, with some people, they were already living pretty good lives -- the Holy Spirit enabled them to see themselves as sinners in spite of already living pretty good lives , but there will still be a positive difference in them. A new desire for God's Word -- an inner peace that shows through. For others -- like the 'rest of us' -- there will be new desires. If a person isn't living any differently After salvation than Before hand. They are still doing the same 'stuff' -- then there's a Good possibility that there Hasn't been any inner change brought by the Holy Spirit. The born again believer Will have the fruit of the Holy Spirit 'showing through' They will have been changed from the inside to the outside

And, yes, without Faith, it is impossible to please God.

There Are those who's salvation has been manifested / shown / by their urge to drink is gone or their addiction to drugs is Gone. So, for Them, it Has been possible to totally stop that particular sin. And God Does want us to be holy as He is holy. But He also knows that these bodies Are weak and we still do have that propensity To Sin. Our human nature is still part of us.

And some of us Do struggle with a particular 'thing' in our lives and might do so for the rest Of our lives. Even though we have serious talks with God about it. Acknowledging, confessing, all of it. And God Does take that 'something' away. But at some point, it Does come back. because we've hit a low spot in our lives. Maybe an emotional low spot.

And we Do need to be praying for one another.

Maybe it depends on what kind Of willful sin a person has gotten into. Satan knows everyone's weakness and Especially with believers -- he will try to use those weakness to pull us down. And, yes, we always have the strength of the Holy Spirit at our disposal, but sometimes we really don't want to use it in That particular area.

There was an older gentleman and wife at the small church we were at. He was a mechanic and had a shop away from home. His wife shared with us that he Did smoke -- all those years ago he needed to keep his weight down for the sake of his hips. He found that the only way for him to keep it down was to smoke because it took away some of his taste / smell of food and thereby he was able to keep his weight down. He was very careful to use breath mints and change his clothes when he got home as to not have the smoke smell on him or his breath. That was Way before replacement surgery was done. And he felt bad about the smoking. It wasn't something he did just for the fun of it. Joy and Lindsey were one of the nicest, humblest people we'd ever known. Well that was true for several of the older couples at church.

My Further comment would be -- each of us are unique -- created by God. He works differently with each of us.

And, yes, we Can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. But sometimes That can bring on judgementalness in people. As in , if, since, I can do it so can You.

 

[KingJ]

You dont get to decide what is torture and what is not. You really dont get to decide a whole lot, especially anything thats important. God has that distinction. Learn to be humble and God will be more proud of you as His son.

''I don't get to decide what is torture and what is not''.....

A God given working brain grasps torture.

The lost have one, which is why some Christians simply utterly fail at their 'one' job, 2 Cor 5:20

 

[KingJ]

You put yourself on a pedistal that neither you or anyone belongs on. You are presenting yourself as an expert in the English language.

''Pedestal'' not ''pedistal''. That is not a higher grade English correction.

It's not a matter of God 'surviving' anything. God Is righteous in all His ways. He's omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent.

But your message does not teach that He is righteous in all His ways. You teach He is righteous only His dealings with His people. His chosen few. We are here to represent Him. You utterly miss-represent Him. Take this line from you ''He is omni...''. No Sue, He is not only Omni. He is '''also''' good, light with no darkness and righteous in ''all'' His ways. You cherry pick scripture to construe your picture of God. It is shocking. I think you need to get a dictionary and meditate on the ''''alll'''' in Psalm 145:17. I honestly do. Is that a higher grade English request? Seriously?

You try to put God on our level. Or maybe on a super-human level.

I don't 'try' anything. God put Himself on our level. This is Christianity 101.

You brought up Gen 3:22 -- and, yes, it Is part of God's Word. It's the Context -- Adam and Eve disobeyed God by eating that fruit. God's apparent plan was for Adam and Eve and the future rest of the world, to be able to live in innocence. God had created a beautiful, perfect world for them and us. Satan got into the picture and lured them into eating of it and Then they knew good from evil. Because of satan -- mankind is capable of extreme evil as well as a great deal of Good. But evilness seems to trump. And then, vs 22 and 23. God also knew that if they were allowed to eat from the tree of life -- they would live forever in a sinful state of being. So God sent them Out of that beautiful garden and put cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life." And God already knew this would take place and His plan was to provide for our salvation through Jesus Christ dying on the cross for our sins. The cross would bridge the gap between us and God.

What is your point? I feel I wasted my time reading this.

You refer to the Gen 18 section as Abraham interrogating God. Take time to read the section of Scripture leading up To that conversation, as well as the actual conversation. Abraham was approaching the Lord with humility with his request. The Lord God was willing to listen to him because of Abrahams' heart.

You are making something of nothing. Did Abraham interrogate God? Yes or No? Yes. Of course he would approach God with respect. Gen 18 22 The men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the Lord. 23 Then Abraham approached him and said: “Will you sweep away the righteous with the wicked?

And your comment regarding "no mind with more then two brain cells working " is really very well............ "a place of only horrors and torture evidence of righteousness." You are setting yourself up as a 'know-it-all' or a 'superior' person. Maybe a touch of 'arrogance'. None of which is flattering -- and which is fairly unChrist-like.

Imagine needing to use wording like that to get a point across of God's goodness to a Christian who should know God. The way you miss-represent God and do not care to amend your wording and or belief is what is shocking.

Brad closed his post by suggesting that you "learn to be humble and that God will be more proud of you as His son." Personally, I question whether or not you really Are a born again believer which would make you 'His son' -- Not the Son of God, but a child of God as a result of your salvation.

The issue is not pride or humility. It is people construing scripture to make it say something it does not. Miss-representation of God. Please try focus.

'''I am not born again'' because I believe God will not torture people????

You are ''born again'' because you ''humble'' yourself and believe you have no place to interrogate God if He carries on like ''Ivan the terrible'' for all eternity?

You have a fake humility and do not care to know God. You come across like someone who only serves God because He is in charge.

Is that why you became a Christian? You want to escape a cruel, torturous, dark and gloomy side of God?

 

[KingJ]

@KingJ -- annihilation means ceasing to exist. No one ceases to exist. Everyone will either be existing in that lake or with God in the future New Jerusalem.

I know what annihilation means and why are you typing this to me? This shows you don't read people's posts. I have been opposing annihilation in every single post.

There Are those who feel that ceasing To exist would be much better Than existing in that future lake. And, of course it would be. But that won't happen.

Annihilation is a much more sound belief over eternal torture by God.

The truth of God loving the wicked and hell not being a place of inhumane torture is however one up on annihilation and what scripture actually teaches.

 

[Garee]

I know what annihilation means and why are you typing this to me? This shows you don't read people's posts. I have been opposing annihilation in every single post.
Annihilation is a much more sound belief over eternal torture by God.

The truth of God loving the wicked and hell not being a place of inhumane torture is however one up on annihilation and what scripture actually teaches.

Yes, God is a God of mercy His mercy triumphs over his eternal judgment. To some by His grace through faith as it is written in the law and prophets he gives a new spirit and a new heart’s desire that will never die. .a living hope.

If it was according to his eternal judgment mankind would suffer forever. But God with his mercy seasoned with grace is "the reward of faith “. . . the mutual labor of Father and Son. It brings us the peace. . the understanding that witnesses to us and comforts us . .

He is not without mercy he is subject to his own laws.

I would offer mercy is not getting what is deserved. . eternal judgment. While grace is getting that which is not deserved . .eternal salvation

James 2:12-14 King James Version (KJV) So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty. For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment. What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

We live in an earthen body carrying out the death sentence, corruption dying, not dead. Dead is the end of it suffering . .Its appointed to die once under the letter of the law. Death according to the letter of the law will be dead The former things in the letter of the law will never come to mind forever more the second death . . .Dead never to rise

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Hell is the living suffering that is made lightered yoked with Christ. Christ suffered unto death and cried out three times not as I will but you with the power. The promised mutual work .He did not die never to rise .It would seem the father worked with him till the end and rolled away the stone. .three in that way denotes the end of a matter.

Death along with its suffering (hell) would seem to be the second .

Revelation 20:14 [Full Chapter] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Genesis 4, I believe sets the foundation for the “doctrine of suffering”. .Abel’s blood as first recorded martyr sent by God . . even today his voice cries out of the heart of the corrupted earth to be clothed with the eternal . The gospel hid in that parable



.

 

[Sue D.]

@KingJ -- to start with -- Happy March 1.

Now -- as for misspelling words -- "all" only has two 'l's -- you gave it 3.

Romans says that All have sinned and John 3 says that 'for God so loved the World'.

God put Himself on our level when He came into this world for 33 years -- And, yet, He wasn't totally on our level -- He was here as 100% divine and 100% human -- so that He could die on the cross for / with our sins and resurrect on the 3rd day. The only thing He gave up was the ability to be everywhere all the time. And 40 days later , He ascended back up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father. And He told His disciples that He needed to go back up so that the Holy Spirit could come and be with them all the time. He would be indwelling all the born again believers then.

Okay -- so we're 'even' -- you feel I'm shocking and I feel You are 'shocking'.

Well - God Is in charge. He is sovereign. We can trust Him to know what's best for us.

Why I became a Christian -- because the Holy Spirit convicted me of my need For Him. And when I accepted His gift of salvation -- Jesus Christ being the Son of God and dying on the cross and rising again the 3rd day -- believing that in my heart and not just facts in my head -- I told Him that I wanted to accept His gift of salvation I thanked Him for it. And then there was an immediate inner peace in my heart that had not been there previously.

My reasoning wasn't to escape any of those adjectives you used to describe God -- because none of those apply to God. Some of them Do apply to people like Hitler or Nero -- some of Those people. And they will answer to God for their cruelty.

The only people / entities that will see that particular side of God as you describe are satan, the beast and the false prophet. But most of those adjectives Still don't apply to God even to those 'people'.

As for the subject of annihilation -- however it's spelled -- you've stated that That would be better than having to exist in lake of fire and brimstone for ever. That it's a much sounder belief Than....

You feel you wasted your precious time reading that one paragraph -- you apparently are a Slow reader cause I read through it fairly quickly.

Enjoy the rest of your day

 

[Garee]

@KingJ -- to start with -- Happy March 1.

Now -- as for misspelling words -- "all" only has two 'l's -- you gave it 3.

Romans says that All have sinned and John 3 says that 'for God so loved the World'.

God put Himself on our level when He came into this world for 33 years -- And, yet, He wasn't totally on our level -- He was here as 100% divine and 100% human -- so that He could die on the cross for / with our sins and resurrect on the 3rd day. The only thing He gave up was the ability to be everywhere all the time. And 40 days later , He ascended back up to heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father. And He told His disciples that He needed to go back up so that the Holy Spirit could come and be with them all the time. He would be indwelling all the born again believers then.

Okay -- so we're 'even' -- you feel I'm shocking and I feel You are 'shocking'.

Well - God Is in charge. He is sovereign. We can trust Him to know what's best for us.

Why I became a Christian -- because the Holy Spirit convicted me of my need For Him. And when I accepted His gift of salvation -- Jesus Christ being the Son of God and dying on the cross and rising again the 3rd day -- believing that in my heart and not just facts in my head -- I told Him that I wanted to accept His gift of salvation I thanked Him for it. And then there was an immediate inner peace in my heart that had not been there previously.

My reasoning wasn't to escape any of those adjectives you used to describe God -- because none of those apply to God. Some of them Do apply to people like Hitler or Nero -- some of Those people. And they will answer to God for their cruelty.

The only people / entities that will see that particular side of God as you describe are satan, the beast and the false prophet. But most of those adjectives Still don't apply to God even to those 'people'.

As for the subject of annihilation -- however it's spelled -- you've stated that That would be better than having to exist in lake of fire and brimstone for ever. That it's a much sounder belief Than....

You feel you wasted your precious time reading that one paragraph -- you apparently are a Slow reader cause I read through it fairly quickly.

Enjoy the rest of your day

How would the use of the doctrine "The letter of the law" (death) fit into your interpretation ? Will it rise in the new creation and condem through corruption to death another creation?

 

[Sue D.]

@Garee-- Would you clarify what you mean by 'the doctrine "the letter of the law" (death)" please.

 

[rvmb]

@B-A-C -- okay -- how long can You go without breaking a single one?

IF it was possible for people to Not break any of them Ever -- would there be a need For the cross?

1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."

Do you really believe a person can live in sinless perfection?

Every day I sin in either/and desire, word, deed and inaction..... yet I am (justified) saved from the eternal punishment I deserve purely by faith alone in Christ alone...my 'works' cannot save me nor maintain my 'justified' status

 

[Garee]

@Garee-- Would you clarify what you mean by 'the doctrine "the letter of the law" (death)" please.

Hi thanks .I can try.. sorry in advance for the rambling ..

It has to do with the word "dead" never to rise to new spirit life. Death is subject to the law as it is written (the letter) . "Thou shall not or you will truly die" and not go into some sort of hibernation . Again never to rise and receive a new incorruptible body . . .promised to those yoked with Christ.

It would seem to me that some that profess to be believers in the dark ages have changed the meaning of the word "dead" .That kind of idea would take away the sting of “thou shalt not eat or you will die” .The whole creation was corrupted under the process of dying coming to an “end”. Dead is not endless suffering .But rather dead is never to rise to new spirit life.

Violators of the letter of the law (as it is written in the Bible) Again "thou shall not eat." it killed and glory of God not seen.

In that way the father of lies uses the letter of the law . . .”Thou shall die” into. . . . “thou shall surely not die”. It becomes who is the god you worship the God who declares a person will die or the god of this world that says. . “You surely will not die”.

There is no purgatory or limbo in between. (A) Dead or (B)Alive?

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

The one wage of sin is the appointment of all of mankind. . die once having already been judged as falling short of the glory of God . Not sleeping (dead asleep) as attributed to those who have received a new born again spirit. (Christians)

Ecclesiastics 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The second death. . the tool the father of lies used to rob the glory of God "the letter of the law"


The death of death . the letter as it is written pronounces judgment death it will not arise in the new order . Then the sting will be a thing of the past.

2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Today the spirit that gives life is reckoned as the spirit of faith it works with the letter of the law as one new perfect law .Apart from each other neither has any effect. . .The law of faith the unseen again it is coupled with the letter of the law the justifier . The just and justifier working as one in the beliver to both will and empower them to do His good pleasure. .

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

The perfect complete law (both laws. . one seen the letter. . The other not seen the spirit, the gospel the work of God working in us. it beautifully revealed in the psalms dioing the unsen work . Psalm 19: two becoming one .the circle of his love that hems us in his city of refuge our hiding place.

Note what(it is as a law) and (what it performs) as a work of God working with us.



Psalm 19: 7-11 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.

The peace of God’s understanding frely given to us.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

 

[Sue D.]

@Garee -- For one thing -- when a person dies physically -- they look like they're sleeping. Maybe that's where the concept of 'soul sleep' comes from.

You're referring to Genesis 2: 17 when the Lord God commanded the man, saying "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall Not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" and that is repeated in chapter 3 in the encounter with the serpent and Eve. vs 3 "but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, 'You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die."

Obviously they didn't die Immediately. God allowed Adam to live 960 or so years. We don't know about Eve. But they Did lose the ability to live forever as had been the original plan. Even back then, God had His plan waiting to be put into place. That being the cross of calvary -- accept God's plan because He loves all of us -- or end up in hell and then the lake of fire and brimstone for all eternity.

There has never been the 'dark ages'. Our concept of death -- something happens to this earthly body and that part of our exists ends. We read in Revelation that eventually those who died physically ended up either in hell or be with Jesus Christ
Those who die without being born again - 'wake up' in hell / the place in Abraham's bosom that still exists today as we read about with Lazarus and the rich man dying. And Revelation says that Death and Hades -- the people in those places will be judged and then they will go into the lake of fire and brimstone. That indicates that "death / Hades" was never really death as we picture as physical death. The soul of the person simply got a different body that would continue on forever.

For the born again believer -- upon physical death -- that person receives a glorified body like Jesus Christ did upon His bodily resurrection from being dead.

At times -- Our desires / understanding / do not match up with what God's Word says. The 'sting of death' -- this body of ours will experience something that will take us out of This world and put us into the next sphere of existence. The 'sting' part probably is meant more for the people we know who will not see us again until they are in 'glory' also. It hurts emotionally for a spouse or loosing a child to accident or illness. Loosing family members / close friends. And we're never really the same after experiencing the lose of a life like that.

And there were a couple of Old Testament people who were 'taken up' by God. Did not experience death. And those born again believers who are here on earth when the rapture takes place , won't experience physical death, either.

The next section of your post is confusing. The 'letter of the law' is not meant to save anyone. The Old Testament sacrifices were meant to be followed until the perfect Lamb of God / Jesus Christ would die on the cross for our sins.

Your comment about the 'new order'. What are you referring to? Are you referring to the eternal life with God in the New Jerusalem. OR are you mixing some 'new age' beliefs ?

 

[B-A-C]

John 11:11; This He said, and after that He *said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep."
John 11:13; Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
John 11:24; Martha *said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

1Cor 11:30; For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep.
This passage is saying some people have died because they took communion unworthily.

1Cor 15:51; Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
This verse is saying we (Christians) won't all die, but we will be changed.

Dan 12:2; "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

1Thes 4:16; For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Matt 27:52; The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised;
These were dead people.

Acts 7:60; Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep.
When Stephen was stoned, he died.

Acts 13:36; "For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep, and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay;
Acts 2:34; "For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

1Cor 15:6; After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep;
Some are still alive, but some have died.

1Thes 5:10; who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.
Whether we are alive or dead, when He returns we will live with Him.

John 6:40; "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:54 "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

1Sam 28:15;
(BBE) And Samuel said to Saul, Why have you made me come up, troubling my rest? And Saul in answer said, I am in great danger; for the Philistines are making war on me, and God has gone away from me and will no longer give me any answer, by the prophets or by dreams: so I have sent for you to make clear to me what I am to do.
(NIrV) Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you troubled me by bringing me up from the dead?" "I'm having big problems," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me. God has turned away from me. He doesn't answer me anymore. He doesn't speak to me through prophets or dreams. So I've called on you to tell me what to do."

The only passage in the Bible that could be taken as we go to heaven immediately is...
2Cor 5:6; Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord—
2Cor 5:8; we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

But does this contradict all those other verses, or does it simply mean when we die, we aren't absent from the body yet (until the trumpet blows on the last day)

John 3:13; "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

 

[B-A-C]

One things is for sure, if there is "soul sleep", that means there is no purgatory.

 

[B-A-C]

Note how they all say ''there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth'' but that no direct reason for it is provided. They separate the statement from the prior. We cannot read it as ''they are cast into fire and the fire causes the weeping and gnashing of teeth''. If we do that we are either failing at English or manipulating scripture.

Now granted, the fire, the darkness, being with hypocrites all contribute to the weeping and gnashing of teeth. I won't argue that. I am being very careful to not miss-represent the reason people weep and gnash their teeth. You see, when people realise they are separated, they weep. Because they see those in heaven, company of saints, non-hypocrites, light from righteousness and having true forgiveness of sins, it highlights the reality of their predicament. They are surrounded by wicked people.

Separated from? what/who?
People in hell aren't separated from God. They are already "separated" from God before they go to hell. But God is even in hell.

Psa 139:8;
(KJV) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Those who burn in the Lake of Fire, will burn in the presence of God.
Rev 14:9 ; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

People won't be "gnashing their teeth" because they are separated from God. God will be there watching them.
They will be gnashing their teeth because they will burning in agony.

 

[KingJ]

Separated from? what/who?

The verses that were quoted. There is a full stop and then a new sentence.

People in hell aren't separated from God. They are already "separated" from God before they go to hell.

I agree in the context you mean it. Death and Life. But overall I don't agree. The wicked have God in their daily lives. The Holy Spirit and Christians are here. They also have innocent children and cute animals that speak to God's nature.

But God is even in hell.

Psa 139:8;
(KJV) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Wow, amazing find. I have never 'grasped' that verse means God is also in hell. It seems logical. Thanks for that, good find.

Those who burn in the Lake of Fire, will burn in the presence of God.
Rev 14:9 ; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

People won't be "gnashing their teeth" because they are separated from God. God will be there watching them.
They will be gnashing their teeth because they will burning in agony.

Rev 14:10 we have discussed in detail before. I will try find the discussion and post it here. I will definitely come back to you on this, this verse is at the centre of your belief and many others who advocate eternal torture in fire.

 

[Garee]

Separated from? what/who?
People in hell aren't separated from God. They are already "separated" from God before they go to hell. But God is even in hell.

Psa 139:8;
(KJV) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Those who burn in the Lake of Fire, will burn in the presence of God.
Rev 14:9 ; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

People won't be "gnashing their teeth" because they are separated from God. God will be there watching them.
They will be gnashing their teeth because they will burning in agony.

God will be there watching them as a Sadist ?

No man can serve two teaching masters. The word of God which is all things written in the law and prophets .and two necromancy an oral tradition as a law of the fathers ,kings and princes. Hierarchy of men that lord it over the faith of the non-venerable. .

Literal hades/ hell is the suffering we experience of the first death. Its appointed to all men . We cannot to serve two teaching masters God not seen and mankind seen. As if we did walk by sight after the temporal .

The Hebrew word darash (seek ) it is used two ways. One to represent seeking after God in true worship through all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptural) And seeking after the legion of the dead called workers with familiar spirits or called by some patron saints. Over 3500 authorized adding picking up speed

Again the word seek has a dark side. They suffer the pangs of hell not yoked with Christ. . They shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.(hades suffering ) with no future hope of rising.

Isaiah 8: 19-22 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. And they shall pass through it, hardly bestead and hungry: and it shall come to pass, that when they shall be hungry, they shall fret themselves, and curse their king and their God, and look upwards And they shall look unto the earth; and behold trouble and darkness, dimness of anguish; and they shall be driven to darkness.

God will be watching them what? . Gnashing of teeth a metaphor that represents anger. Since their bodies have return to dust and the temporal spirit under the letter of the law death (you shall not or you will die) returns to the father. I would say mercy triumphs over some sort of never ending judgment. God is subject to his own law God is mercy personified . The spirit of judgment as false prophecy “Satan’s” (you shall surely not die rejoices in the judgment of others God does not rejoice at the death of mankind.

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

It canot be for jusgement and against it at the same time. it works for the whole Some recieve a new born again spirit as new creatures others do not.

We as new creatures have the privilege to offer our bodies as a living sacrifice in lieu of having mercy Without mercy how could those who have none offer anything to begin with??? .No breathing after the last breath

Romans 12 King James Version (KJV) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Are we to have mercy on them and preach the gospel ? or like the apotle John in Luke 9 desired to bring fire from heaven and begin the never ending torture.? Mercy rejoiceth against judgment