How can Jesus be God, yet not know things?

[Chad]

How can Jesus be God, yet not know things?
Tekton Apologetics Ministries

In Mark 13:32, Jesus says that no man knows the day or hour, not the angels, not even the Son, but only the Father. The limit in the knowledge of Jesus is sometimes explained by saying he was speaking from His humanity, and that there are many more examples in Scripture that He was not omniscient in His humanity.

But what about the inference to be drawn from this passage that the Holy Spirit does not (or at least did not) know the day or hour either?
This is related to another matter, actually, that of places where Jesus somehow seems to be ignorant of things -- leading to the question, "How can Jesus be God, yet not know things (i.e., not be omniscient)?" This includes cites like Luke 8:43-5 (where Jesus does not know who in the crowd touched him).

My own ruminations in this area lead me to believe that the typical answer -- that Jesus emptied himself of his power, while making a good point, does not go far enough -- partly because it doesn't explain the Holy Spirit's implicit "ignorance" in Mark 13:32.

What I believe is happening here has to get into some Trinitarian theology, and the crossover temporality of two members of the Trinity which requires them to divest themselves of certain abilities -- what we refer to, in terms of Christ, as a kenotic emptying (Phil 2:6-11).
Note that this should be viewed in line with the "dual nature" (human/divine) of Christ and NOT the "kenotic heresy" which misuses Phil. 2:6-11. In the view being explained here, Christ's "human nature" is the kenoticized one. The divine consciousness remains intact but is not accessed or used under typical circumstances. To put it another way, the incarnated Jesus is divine Wisdom with "half its brain tied behind its back." The attributes are accessible, but not used.

The key for me lies in the verses that indicate a "subordinate" position of Jesus to God the Father. (Like, "The Father is greater than I.") Skeptics often ask how this equates with Jesus being "God" -- the question misses something; we regard Jesus as "God the Son". More literally, Jesus is the Word and Wisdom of God incarnate. (It would take too long to explain here, but for a good start, see my article on Wisdom here.)

Now if Jesus is the "Word" of God, and subordinate to God, then Jesus is dependent upon God the Father for his existence. If the Father ceased to exist, so would Jesus. My thought on this related to Mark 13:32//Matthew 24:36 is that Jesus does not know the day or the hour because the Father has not yet "spoken" the word yet (in the temporal realm, related to the human nature; this does not speak to knowledge in the eternal realm and the divine nature) that declares the day and hour.

But Christ "emptied" himself of his divine power to come to earth -- as would be needed, for had he not done so, even practically speaking, it would destroy the world. So in this context, the Father has given some signs to look for, but that is all. (By the way, I hold to a preterist view of this passage, but it doesn't make any difference in the context of this discussion.)

Now shift over to the Holy Spirit. The role of the Spirit is as the person of God's creative power and effect, but it is quite clear that the Spirit is subordinate in the same sense that Jesus is, and so subject to the same restrictions in "knowledge" (again, in the temporal realm) that the Son is -- again, were it otherwise, the awesome power of God would destroy all in this world it came in contact with (notably we sinful humans).

In other words, it may be proper as well to speak of the Holy Spirit undergoing a kenotic "emptying" of his own in order to do its work on earth. It may be that the Incarnation involved, for the Word, an even greater emptying. But this is all speculative, based on philosophical considerations; and it is only implicitly supported by Scripture. However, I do think it is sound in principle.

A scholar gave me another interpretation, noting 1 Cor. 2:11, "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." This argues that in Mark 13:32, the Spirit is included in the range of the Father by implication. While I find this a little contrived, and think 1 Cor. 2:11 does not of necessity imply exhaustive knowledge, others may accept it as a viable option.

-JPH

 

[Boanerges]

I believe it to be a matter of choice for Him.


By the same token how can the Father not remember something and yet still be God?

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[LifeinJesus]

I myself believe Jesus is the son of God. After all, God directly spoke to Him calling Him His own begotten son of whom He is well pleased with. There's nothing more to it. Jesus is indeed part of God but so are we. After all, our souls came from God.

 

[Boanerges]

While I came from God I cannot claim to be a part of God.

Jesus was quite different though and the Father Himself addresses Jesus calling Him "Ho' Theos" or the "Most High God":
Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

 

[Jeff726]

2 Peter 1:1 (NLT) "This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior."

 

[Iceman]

How can Jesus be God, yet not know things?

Tekton Apologetics Ministries

In Mark 13:32, Jesus says that no man knows the day or hour, not the angels, not even the Son, but only the Father. The limit in the knowledge of Jesus is sometimes explained by saying he was speaking from His humanity, and that there are many more examples in Scripture that He was not omniscient in His humanity.

But what about the inference to be drawn from this passage that the Holy Spirit does not (or at least did not) know the day or hour either?
This is related to another matter, actually, that of places where Jesus somehow seems to be ignorant of things -- leading to the question, "How can Jesus be God, yet not know things (i.e., not be omniscient)?" This includes cites like Luke 8:43-5 (where Jesus does not know who in the crowd touched him).

My own ruminations in this area lead me to believe that the typical answer -- that Jesus emptied himself of his power, while making a good point, does not go far enough -- partly because it doesn't explain the Holy Spirit's implicit "ignorance" in Mark 13:32.

What I believe is happening here has to get into some Trinitarian theology, and the crossover temporality of two members of the Trinity which requires them to divest themselves of certain abilities -- what we refer to, in terms of Christ, as a kenotic emptying (Phil 2:6-11).
Note that this should be viewed in line with the "dual nature" (human/divine) of Christ and NOT the "kenotic heresy" which misuses Phil. 2:6-11. In the view being explained here, Christ's "human nature" is the kenoticized one. The divine consciousness remains intact but is not accessed or used under typical circumstances. To put it another way, the incarnated Jesus is divine Wisdom with "half its brain tied behind its back." The attributes are accessible, but not used.

The key for me lies in the verses that indicate a "subordinate" position of Jesus to God the Father. (Like, "The Father is greater than I.") Skeptics often ask how this equates with Jesus being "God" -- the question misses something; we regard Jesus as "God the Son". More literally, Jesus is the Word and Wisdom of God incarnate. (It would take too long to explain here, but for a good start, see my article on Wisdom here.)

Now if Jesus is the "Word" of God, and subordinate to God, then Jesus is dependent upon God the Father for his existence. If the Father ceased to exist, so would Jesus. My thought on this related to Mark 13:32//Matthew 24:36 is that Jesus does not know the day or the hour because the Father has not yet "spoken" the word yet (in the temporal realm, related to the human nature; this does not speak to knowledge in the eternal realm and the divine nature) that declares the day and hour.

But Christ "emptied" himself of his divine power to come to earth -- as would be needed, for had he not done so, even practically speaking, it would destroy the world. So in this context, the Father has given some signs to look for, but that is all. (By the way, I hold to a preterist view of this passage, but it doesn't make any difference in the context of this discussion.)

Now shift over to the Holy Spirit. The role of the Spirit is as the person of God's creative power and effect, but it is quite clear that the Spirit is subordinate in the same sense that Jesus is, and so subject to the same restrictions in "knowledge" (again, in the temporal realm) that the Son is -- again, were it otherwise, the awesome power of God would destroy all in this world it came in contact with (notably we sinful humans).

In other words, it may be proper as well to speak of the Holy Spirit undergoing a kenotic "emptying" of his own in order to do its work on earth. It may be that the Incarnation involved, for the Word, an even greater emptying. But this is all speculative, based on philosophical considerations; and it is only implicitly supported by Scripture. However, I do think it is sound in principle.

A scholar gave me another interpretation, noting 1 Cor. 2:11, "For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." This argues that in Mark 13:32, the Spirit is included in the range of the Father by implication. While I find this a little contrived, and think 1 Cor. 2:11 does not of necessity imply exhaustive knowledge, others may accept it as a viable option.


-JPH

I think this falls into a very typical christological pit. That is many people see Jesus not as just God incarnate, but as God himself. Jesus didn't go around being God all over the place. He isn't just God in a human body like some kind of avatar, but is the bridge between both humanity and God. God incarnate. God made one of us.

Instead Jesus while being fully God, is also the scripture tells us, fully human. It's a dichotomy that can be very difficult to get your head around. I don't think Jesus knew while he was doing his ministry every single thing that God knew. Which is very explicit in Mark. The Jesus that Mark paints is very very human. Which is why I think Jesus is God, but sometimes also seems to be human. Simply because he is.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Jesus while being fully God, is also the scripture tells us, fully human. It's a dichotomy that can be very difficult to get your head around. I don't think Jesus knew while he was doing his ministry every single thing that God knew. Which is very explicit in Mark.

Check out Php 2:5-10NIV. I think it shows that Paul did a pretty good job of getting his head arround this issue. The bottom line is that Jesus, when He came to Earth, temporarily surrendered control of His powers and priviledges as God. His miracles were worked through the power of the Holy Spirit working in Him.

SLE

 

[Iceman]

i'm not sure what your point is. Of course Jesus, who existed with God and was God since before creation needs to empty himself to be human. Quoting an early Christian hymn (which is of course those verses) doesn't invalidate the dichotomy I presented which still exists. It also doesn't change the problem that many people see Jesus as just an avatar of God. Perhaps you can clarify what your disagreement is.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

i'm not sure what your point is. Of course Jesus, who existed with God and was God since before creation needs to empty himself to be human. Quoting an early Christian hymn (which is of course those verses) doesn't invalidate the dichotomy I presented which still exists. It also doesn't change the problem that many people see Jesus as just an avatar of God. Perhaps you can clarify what your disagreement is.

My point is that its not all that complicated when you understand the quoted scripture. Its not mine understand the mysteries of what God does. I accept Paul's words as the Bible's answer to this question stated in quite simple terms.

SLE

 

[Boanerges]

Check out Php 2:5-10NIV. I think it shows that Paul did a pretty good job of getting his head arround this issue. The bottom line is that Jesus, when He came to Earth, temporarily surrendered control of His powers and priviledges as God. His miracles were worked through the power of the Holy Spirit working in Him.

SLE

Amen x 10 my freind!:shade:

 

[garycoleman]

Mark 3:23

Does anyone have an idea why Jesus waited until he was 30 to begin his ministry?

 

[Iceman]

My point is that its not all that complicated when you understand the quoted scripture. Its not mine understand the mysteries of what God does. I accept Paul's words as the Bible's answer to this question stated in quite simple terms.

SLE

I can't help but feel differently. Trying to figure out Jesus' divinity can is very much the same as trying to figure out the trinity itself. Almost impossible to wrap your head around. True many people default to infantile analogies like three flavoured icecream or a three leaf clover, but they do very little to actually translate the theology that's behind it all. It's one thing to say, oh yes, this is the answer and another entirely to actually understand the answer. Like the difference between knowing how to use a dictionary to speak another language, and being fluent in another language. The dynamics change once you reach a certain depth.

Understanding Jesus' humanity and divinity can be instrumental in understanding scripture, and the fact that this thread was started is evidence of that. It can make all the difference to actually struggle with the issues presented within the scripture.

Does anyone have an idea why Jesus waited until he was 30 to begin his ministry?

Depends on who you ask.

 

[shipwrecksoul]

Does anyone have an idea why Jesus waited until he was 30 to begin his ministry?

Yes. It was God's timing!

 

[Brighthouse]

I would say Gary because ,as he was a Rabbi,first to the Jewish people he wanted to teach others,that before we can ever be a teacher of the Word,we must show we can be under anothers authority of it,a servent of the Word if you will. John 12:26 If anyone serves me,he must follow me,and where I am,there My servent will be also; if anyone serves ME the father will honor him. Hope this helps.

 

[RJ]

Another mystery of God that there is no absolute way to explain how, it just was. Regarding mysteries, this is really no different than what God told Moses:

Exodus 3:14

<SUP id=en-NIV1984-1594 class=versenum>14</SUP> God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

I think God was simply saying that I just AM and as with Jesus, he just was.

I think most of us have faith that Jesus was very human while very God. Even Jesus said:
John 14:7
<SUP id=en-NIV1984-26665 class=versenum>7</SUP> If you really knew me, you would know<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

On the other hand, Jesus could do nothing on his own:
John 5:19

<SUP id=en-NIV1984-26219 class=versenum>19</SUP> Jesus gave them this answer: “I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.

Again, I can't explain it all but I believe the following:

Though the son in the begining was the word and the word was God, when he came to earth through Mary, he was very human. Through God's marevelous plan of the New Covenant, he provided the ultimate perfect sacrifice for the sins of man, he provided a man.

Until his death and resurrection, Jesus was the perfect human. He came not only as a sacrifice and to save us all, Jesus was the perfect example of what a human should be and doing everything only through the Father.

To be the ultimate sacrifice Jesus had to bear the sins of the world, by himself, as a human, alone and with out the Father.

Mark 15:34
<SUP id=en-NIV1984-24853 class=versenum>34</SUP> And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?”—which means, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP>

For that very instant prior to bearing the world's sin, Jesus himself felt the absence of God. God can not bear our sin. God is absolute perfection and it is impossible for him to be in the presence of what he is not. So, God provided the perfect solution, a perfect man:

2 Corinthians 5:21
<SUP id=en-NIV1984-28883 class=versenum>21</SUP> God made him who had no sin to be sin<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
God can not be sin.


So, as a part of his humanality, Jesus would not know everything.

And yet the mystery is eternal, Jesus is God yet different and set apart:

1 Corinthians 15:28
<SUP id=en-NIV1984-28731 class=versenum>28</SUP> When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

 

[brakelite]

What is fascinating is that Jesus,when young, would not have known who He was. He would have learned much from His mother's knee, but the rest through study of the sacred scriptures...in other words, when we study scripture we discover Jesus; when He studied scripture He discovered Himself.
I am convinced that all that He had learned as a child was confirmed to Him through the Holy Spirit and His observations of the sacrifices and rituals that took place at the temple when He witnessed them for the first time as a 12yo. It was then He could tell His parents, "I must be about My Father's business."
The Devil knew who Jesus was. The temptations were all focused on tempting Jesus to use His divinity to prove who He was. Thankfully for us, Jesus refused. This reveals to me that His power was always available (He could have stepped down from the cross at any time) but He laid it aside in order to go through with the plan of salvation. This means that Jesus love for us is greater than His love for His own divinty.

 

[agua]

This reveals to me that His power was always available (He could have stepped down from the cross at any time) but He laid it aside in order to go through with the plan of salvation. This means that Jesus love for us is greater than His love for His own divinty.

Amen Brake,

Joh_15:13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one's life for his friends.

 

[Kit Carson]

I dunno......One thing I have learned is when we hash it all out and break it up and try to figure it all out, we really do not know. I guess it is fun to try to figure it all out, but over time I have learned that what is is what is, and the answer to all is in Gods Word a bit different for all I suppose. It speaks to us all for us, each of us have different backgrounds, different levels of intelligence....the main thing I have realized is we do not know for sure, and just when we think we have it all figured out, we find out we do not.

So I do not worry about such things....I just accept by faith and let God worry about the rest of it.

God tells us that as smart as we become, we are not.....I bet he gets a laugh out of us sometimes......the main thing is he loved us enough to figure out a solution that we can all relate to and understand.

That is all that is really important. Some things you just have to realize are so, and we do not understand them exactly.

Kit

 

[WaterRock]

Does anyone have an idea why Jesus waited until he was 30 to begin his ministry?

They was no Jesus, or son of David to begin the New Testament, David and his Son were killed back in the Book of Samuel.

But without no story they can't collect no offerings.

Luke 3, the first resurrection of the substitute, so when crucified on the cross, they is no resurrection afterward see Rev. 20.6

Just that one child born of a virgin and her husband, but they took him out of the country. Good advice for all.

 

[RJ]

Does anyone have an idea why Jesus waited until he was 30 to begin his ministry?

I think the point is that Jesus repeatedly said he could do nothing except through the Father. So, it wasn't Jesus that made that decision but God; you will just have to ask him that question some day.