How Is Jesus Presenting Us As Saved in According to Our Faith?

[At Peace]

I would hate to build a whole doctrine on one verse. Especially when there are literally dozens of verses where.. Christians... sin.

Lets add these verses to the sin free doctrine list...

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matt 5:48)

“And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” (John 8:32-36)
[33] They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
[34] Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
[35] And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
[36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. “

I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me." (John 17:22-23)

“Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
For he that is dead is freed from sin.” (Rom.6:6-7)

" There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Rom 8:1)

"Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame." (1 Cor 15:34)

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Cor 5:21)

"Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you." (2Cor 13:11)

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." (Eph 2:1-3)

" Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:" (Col 1:28)

"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you." (Phil 3:15)

"Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." (2 Tim 2:19)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Tim 3:16-17)

"Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:15-16)

"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." (Heb 10:39)

"But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing." (James 1:4)

"If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body." (James 3:2)

"But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
Because it is written, “Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:15-16)

”For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps
Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:” (1 Pet.2:21-22)

"Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)

"According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust." (2 Peter 1:3-4)

"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:" (2 Peter 1:10)

"Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless." (2 Peter 3:14)

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7)

1 John 3
[4] "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
[5] And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[6] Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
[7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
[9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

Ever read of the "doctrine which is according to Godliness"? (1 Tim 6:3)

 

[B-A-C]

Lets add these verses to the sin free doctrine list...

I'm inclined to think if we just pick out certain verses that agree with "our" doctrine and ignore the rest about advocacy, forgiveness,
then it's a "partial" (half truth.). A half truth is still a whole lie. I try to build doctrines on all verses, even the ones that may not
agree with the a particular doctrine. A doctrine that only agrees with some verses isn't a very good doctrine.

 

[At Peace]

I'm inclined to think if we just pick out certain verses that agree with "our" doctrine and ignore the rest about advocacy, forgiveness, then it's a "partial" (half truth.). A half truth is still a whole lie. I try to build doctrines on all verses, even the ones that may not
agree with the a particular doctrine. A doctrine that only agrees with some verses isn't a very good doctrine.

38 different verses from multiple authors isn't enough for you?
Can you find a single verse that says we cannot be free from sin?

 

[B-A-C]

38 different verses from multiple authors isn't enough for you?
Can you find a single verse that says we cannot be free from sin?

The question isn't really can we be free sin from sin. But rather is it immediate? None of the verses you gave say it
happens in a split second.

I can find just as many that say Christians still sin sometimes. So how do we reconcile this? The Bible seems to say
this often takes a little time. These verses are also from four different writers.

Rom 7:17; So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:20; But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

1 Cor 8:12; And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.

1 Tim 5:20; Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

1 Tim 5:22; Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

Heb 12:4; You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;

1 Pet 2:20; For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

1 Jn 1:8; If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

1 Jn 2:1; My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

1 Jn 5:16; If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

Matt 18:15; "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.

Luke 11:4; 'And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'"

Luke 17:3; "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Jas 5:15; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16; Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

1Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

None of these verses say we "have" to continue sinning, but they make it evident that Christians sometimes sin.

 

[At Peace]

The question isn't really can we be free sin from sin. But rather is it immediate? None of the verses you gave say it happens in a split second.

You are either reborn of God, or you are not

I can find just as many that say Christians still sin sometimes. So how do we reconcile this? The Bible seems to say
this often takes a little time. These verses are also from four different writers.
Rom 7:17; So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
Rom 7:20; But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

The first few verses of Ro 7 clearly show that it is speaking of a former time. Verse 5..."For when we WERE in the flesh..."
The entire middle of Ro 7 is about Paul's former life as a Pharisee; trying to live the Mosaic Law, but failing. And again, a reference to the past in verse 18; (that is, in my flesh).
And the end, especially verse 23; "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to THE LAW OF SIN which is in my members."...points again to a former time. Because....
we read in Romans 8:2...."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from THE LAW OF SIN and death.
Why would Paul be subject to something he is free of?
If you could see the truth of Ro 7, and its proximity to Ro 6, which speaks of baptism and the death of the flesh, you would see that Paul is making the past-present transition, and Ro 8 continues on into the life walked in the Spirit.

1 Cor 8:12; And so, by sinning against the brethren and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ.

Had you read that in context you would see that "we" are warned not to do such a thing.

1 Tim 5:20; Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.

And what is manifested by the sins of others?
That they are not born of God.
Do you call those who "continue to sin" Christians?
They refuse rebuke, so are cast out.
If they respect the rebuke, they can repent of all sin then, as they have not already. Then they can start their life in Christ.

1 Tim 5:22; Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.

You are using a warning not to sin to accuse of sin.

Heb 12:4; You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin;

Paul did shed blood in his fight against sin, didn't he?
All the apostles ended up dying in the fight against sin...not their own sins, but the potential sins of others.

1 Pet 2:20; For what credit is there if, when you sin and are harshly treated, you endure it with patience? But if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God.

I'll compare your translation with the real word of God...
" For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
Your interpreters have turned "faults" into "sins".
When I think of "faults", I think of spelling mistakes and math mistakes,
At some point in a work day you will see something to correct.
Did you make that mistake to satisfy some lust? Or to hurt someone else?
If not, it isn't a sin...just ineptitude.

1 Jn 1:8; If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

As for 1 John 1:8...
John is writing to a church, about two kinds of men.
Those who walk in the light, and those who walk in the darkness.
Those who walk in the light have had ALL their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ. They CAN say they have no sin.
Those who walk in darkness cannot say they have no sin, because they do continue to commit sin.
John uses an A-B, A-B, A-B style of writing. (Also used by Paul in Romans 8...Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh, Spirit-flesh.)
A applies to those who walk in the light and B applies to those who walk in the darkness.
Verses 5, 7, and 9 refer to those who walk in the light.
Verses 6, 8, and 10 refer to those who walk in the darkness.

1 Jn 2:1; My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

You have taken the initial step into Christianity and turned it into a "spare-tire".
A bandage for your rebellions against God.
It doesn't work like that.
The next few verses may shed some light on your POV..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:3-4)
Those who refuse the commandments of God do not know their advocate.

1 Jn 5:16; If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should make request for this.

No sinner is a brother to the children of God, so the use of "brother" in this context may refer to fellow Jews, or fellow Greeks, or fellow potters, or fellow tent makers.
You are my "brother" on this site, though we are not related by birth, or anything else.
I can pray for the souls of the lost, but if they don't quit sinning, their sins are "unto death".

Matt 18:15; "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Luke 11:4; 'And forgive us our sins, For we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation.'"
Luke 17:3; "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

All verses from before our ability to crucify and bury the flesh were made manifest.
Nobody but Jesus was perfect before that gift of God was given to us.

Jas 5:15; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up, and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven him.
Jas 5:16; Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.

Why on earth do you hide behind the sins of others?
Just because "Joe" jumps off a cliff, does that mean you must also jump?
There are righteous men, as the verse shows, so why not emulate those who DO love God above all else instead of seeking solace in the wickedness of others?

1Jn 1:9; If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

That would be a man who can, afterwards, say he has no sin.
Right?
Cleansed from ALL unrighteousness?
It is our job, thenceforth, to remain in the light.

None of these verses say we "have" to continue sinning, but they make it evident that Christians sometimes sin.

I'm glad you realize the first part of that sentence.

Your prior implication is that Godly seed can bring forth evil fruit.
That isn't going to happen.
Either a repentance from sin and rebirth of Godly seed is real, or it is a lie to God.
One can't have a fellowship with God that is based on a lie.

 

[Laura1557]

Yet I notice in the Bible.... it never happened at "the moment" of belief.
It didn't happen for those in the upper room that way. They had been baptized by John the Baptist and following Jesus long before this.
It didn't happen for Cornelius this way. He was a believer who didn't receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit until he met Peter.
(He was a Gentile of course)
It didn't happen for Paul that way on the road to Damascus.
It didn't happen that way for the disciples at Ephesus (Acts 19) who also had been believers for a long time, baptized by John the Baptist,
and they didn't even "know there was a Holy Spirit" until they met Paul.
It didn't happen that way for the Samaritans in Acts 8:16; (who had also been baptized previously).

That's at least five instances where it was a separate event. Do you have any scripture that says you are baptized in the Holy Spirit
just because you believe? (Even the demons believe).

Besides all that.. the Bible says we have to "ask" for the Holy Spirit.

Every one of those five instances were also all in the book of Acts, which is transitional from the nation of Israel under the dispensation of the Law, to the present dispensation of Grace (which is a more accurate description than ''the church age'' that I mentioned in a previous post.)


I gave you scripture in post #105: Eph 1:13. Actually, we can add verse 14 to that as well.

Eph 1:13 KJV In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 KJV Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Also Ephesians 4:1-6 KJV, especially verse 5 tells us something different than the two-pronged baptism in Acts. Remember that at present our church doctrine comes from the Pauline epistles. You'll get tangled up every time when you try to apply the things contained in somebody else's mail (from a different dispensation) to the dispensation in which we're living.

Eph 4:1 KJV I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
Eph 4:2 KJV With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
Eph 4:3 KJV Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:4 KJV There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 KJV One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 KJV One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1Co 12:13 KJV For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Jesus said the baptism of the Holy Spirit in Ac 1:5 was yet future when He said: For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. He acknowledged both parts, and at the time, the Jews were hoping He was going to restore the Kingdom to Israel (Acts 1:6).

Acts 2 (upper room) came after Acts 1. There were no Christians in the book of Acts till chapter 11 (verse 26).


Back in Matthew, Jesus' disciples didn't even want to have anything to do with a Gentile woman who came to Him for help. Jesus Himself told her that He was only sent to deal with the house of Israel. He helped her because He was impressed by her faith.

Mt 15:21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
Mt 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
Mt 15:23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
Mt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mt 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
Mt 15:26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Mt 15:27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
Mt 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Again, in Luke 11, it was the Jews He was talking to who'd need to ask for the Holy Spirit, not today's Christians.

God's command is for us to rightly divide the Bible as per 2 Tim 2:15 KJV.

 

[B-A-C]

The first few verses of Ro 7 clearly show that it is speaking of a former time. Verse 5..."For when we WERE in the flesh..."

Unfortunately after verse 5 he says....

Rom 7:6; But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Verse 17 says...

Rom 7:17; So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

It doesn't say in times past... both verses say.. "now".

I think you are lose a lot credibility when you twist things.

 

[B-A-C]

I gave you scripture in post #105: Eph 1:13. Actually, we can add verse 14 to that as well.

You gave one verse, I gave 5 entire passages. But where does that 1 verse says it happens immediately upon belief?

 

[At Peace]

Unfortunately after verse 5 he says....

Rom 7:6; But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
Verse 17 says...
Rom 7:17; So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
It doesn't say in times past... both verses say.. "now".
I think you are lose a lot credibility when you twist things.

Paul is using the "present-narrative" tense, in the middle of Rom 7.
He is relating a previous experience as if he were still in it.
I need not "twist" anything to expound on the facets of the doctrine which is according to Godliness.

 

[Br. Bear]

Rom 7:6; But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Verse 17 says...

Rom 7:17; So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Greetings,

I was wondering exactly what the Apostle was referring to when writing about, "...sin which dwells in me." I don't necessarily mean the whole picture he was presenting regarding the law etc but rather, depending on what way we 'understand' what he meant, what sin is he referring to? He doesn't actually mention any particular sin, so i was wondering what he meant. Is there a reason he never labels any of the sin/sins he wrote about in this passage? Was he simply generalising (almost as if to suggest he was a regular sinner) as he seems to imply an ongoing sort of 'fight' with this 'sin which dwells in me'.
It seems a bit strange when looking at it like that. I think it is worth noting/considering that there doesn't appear to be any specific 'sin' called out regarding himself but it would appear that he must have been glossing over all his 'sinning' ?
What do you think?

This is another way of looking at it but might help shed some light and if nothing else perhaps we can chew something over together - all of us- and get a little united in our professed faith in the One Who died for our sins, and not ours only...


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

@At Peace

Greetings,

by the way, thanks for persisting with your postings and helping us all to consider all the Scriptures we have been looking at a bit more deeply and thoroughly. An Iron Sharpens Iron sort of thing.

I have often not agreed with my Brothers in Christ (here, there and everywhere) about the way they understand Scripture and likewise they have often not agreed to my way of understanding but because of the Love we share in, we are able to dig a little deeper and realise that God does have all the answers and that we can and should always help one another in Scriptural matters.
I used to get annoyed at the wrong messages I heard at a particular 'church' i sometimes went to. One day the Lord reminded me that it was only through His showing me the truth that i had the slightest inkling about anything being said being error. In other words, God was and is able to use anything to teach us and lead us in perfection every day.

So, thank you again for what you have been sharing. I pray that everyone is stimulated to sincerely consider everything you have written and much as they consider what they write and that you too consider likewise.

Sometimes we can be so desperate to be understood that we forget to be understanding.

I want to say that i follow what you are trying to say over and over again and at the same time I hear clearly where others are coming from.

I have planted thousands upon thousands of trees, bushes, shrubs, herbs, vegetables, grasses, flowers and grains and never, I repeat, never, have any one of them ever been anything else all through their growth than what they were in seed form. Yes, the seed 'changed' to plant and the plants produced different yields of things, be it seeds, fruit, foliage, timber, flowers, etc. but each and every one always remained what it was from the beginning. From my way of understanding this horticultural wonder, I see that is and has been and will be impossible for any seed to bear anything but the fullness of that which it is/was and if i may add, at every stage of growth, it was always perfect, not needing to be anything else but totally equipped and made ready to be all that it will ever be.
Some needed pruning, some died for various reasons, some have been and gone and some remain to this day but they always continued being perfectly exactly what they were.

I personally like to think that I will be presented exactly at Jesus would present me and i put all my hope and trust and faith in Him to do with me all that He has promised, for His glory honour and praise.



Bless you ....><>

 

[Lanolin]

@At Peace keep contending for the faith. I dont know what it is, but, some on here are trying to justify something that has no place in a reborn christians life.

I am a gardener too and one problem that gardeners deal with, and we can actually find out from what God tells us in Genesis, is WEEDS!

Maybe I will start a thread on that to help explain it.

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

I am a gardener too and one problem that gardeners deal with, and we can actually find out from what God tells us in Genesis, is WEEDS!

As you know, as we go, we discover that some weeds are useful and can be put to use, and they no longer are considered weeds. Edumacation comes with time and we realise that what some call a weed others call a herb. It then comes down to if it is convenient or invasive and is it choking out the seedlings we plant. Sometimes it is OK to leave the weeds and Scripture tells us that it is better to not pull them out if it will damage/hurt/kill/ruin the crop before harvest.

Let us look to the LORD and His Righteousness and rejoice in Him.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Lanolin]

Greetings,



As you know, as we go, we discover that some weeds are useful and can be put to use, and they no longer are considered weeds. Edumacation comes with time and we realise that what some call a weed others call a herb. It then comes down to if it is convenient or invasive and is it choking out the seedlings we plant. Sometimes it is OK to leave the weeds and Scripture tells us that it is better to not pull them out if it will damage/hurt/kill/ruin the crop before harvest.

Let us look to the LORD and His Righteousness and rejoice in Him.


Bless you ....><>

Yes that is true about the wheat and tares. Need to be careful about that...although there is a right time to pull out certain weeds and a wrong time. Sometimes you can just chop and drop and it wont do any damage. Its much easier to pull out weeds after the rain. We know it rain on the just and unjust like.

I can tell you one story about pulling out a giant agave that weighed a tonne. I did read the mexicans actually could use it to make tequila, but we werent going to use it for that so just dumped it. (Had to pay to get rid of it though) and it scratched us and gave us a rashes. It was half a days work to get that out from the top of a retaining wall, thankfully nobody was seriously injured.

We got it before it flowered though and seeded everywhere. Maybe we could have left it, but it was half dying and an eyesore, and the boss wanted it out. Literally a tonne of plant material. And we discovered it was in a concrete planter. Someone planted it when it was just a baby and probably thought it looked cute. Not realising when these things grow into huge monsters!

 

[At Peace]

Unfortunately after verse 5 he says....

Rom 7:6; But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

I can't understand why you consider being dead to, and released from, the law, unfortunate?

Verse 17 says...
Rom 7:17; So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
It doesn't say in times past... both verses say.. "now".

"Now" would be the evidence of Paul's use of the "present-narrative" tense.
As you pointed out before, (above), Paul is dead to, and released from, the law, so the "sin" which you accuse him of must be from a previous time...like when he WAS in the flesh.

I think you are lose a lot credibility when you twist things.

It seems that you are willing to learn from Paul, even though you consider him a sinner, and that makes me wonder about the others you have or are learning from.

Life without offense to God is available to all, but they must love God above all else and their neighbor as themselves.
Sinners can't accomplish that.

 

[At Peace]

Greetings,

I was wondering exactly what the Apostle was referring to when writing about, "...sin which dwells in me." I don't necessarily mean the whole picture he was presenting regarding the law etc but rather, depending on what way we 'understand' what he meant, what sin is he referring to? He doesn't actually mention any particular sin, so i was wondering what he meant. Is there a reason he never labels any of the sin/sins he wrote about in this passage? Was he simply generalising (almost as if to suggest he was a regular sinner) as he seems to imply an ongoing sort of 'fight' with this 'sin which dwells in me'.
It seems a bit strange when looking at it like that. I think it is worth noting/considering that there doesn't appear to be any specific 'sin' called out regarding himself but it would appear that he must have been glossing over all his 'sinning' ?
What do you think?

Paul is addressing all and any sin committed by men still in the flesh.
We know that Paul wasn't in the flesh though, as he describes how the flesh is destroyed, in Romans 6:6.
That crucifixion of the flesh/circumcision of the flesh is mentioned again in Gal 5:24 and Col 2:11-13.

 

[At Peace]

@At Peace

Greetings,

by the way, thanks for persisting with your postings and helping us all to consider all the Scriptures we have been looking at a bit more deeply and thoroughly. An Iron Sharpens Iron sort of thing.

I have often not agreed with my Brothers in Christ (here, there and everywhere) about the way they understand Scripture and likewise they have often not agreed to my way of understanding but because of the Love we share in, we are able to dig a little deeper and realise that God does have all the answers and that we can and should always help one another in Scriptural matters.
I used to get annoyed at the wrong messages I heard at a particular 'church' i sometimes went to. One day the Lord reminded me that it was only through His showing me the truth that i had the slightest inkling about anything being said being error. In other words, God was and is able to use anything to teach us and lead us in perfection every day.

So, thank you again for what you have been sharing. I pray that everyone is stimulated to sincerely consider everything you have written and much as they consider what they write and that you too consider likewise.

Sometimes we can be so desperate to be understood that we forget to be understanding.

I want to say that i follow what you are trying to say over and over again and at the same time I hear clearly where others are coming from.

I have planted thousands upon thousands of trees, bushes, shrubs, herbs, vegetables, grasses, flowers and grains and never, I repeat, never, have any one of them ever been anything else all through their growth than what they were in seed form. Yes, the seed 'changed' to plant and the plants produced different yields of things, be it seeds, fruit, foliage, timber, flowers, etc. but each and every one always remained what it was from the beginning. From my way of understanding this horticultural wonder, I see that is and has been and will be impossible for any seed to bear anything but the fullness of that which it is/was and if i may add, at every stage of growth, it was always perfect, not needing to be anything else but totally equipped and made ready to be all that it will ever be.
Some needed pruning, some died for various reasons, some have been and gone and some remain to this day but they always continued being perfectly exactly what they were.

I personally like to think that I will be presented exactly at Jesus would present me and i put all my hope and trust and faith in Him to do with me all that He has promised, for His glory honour and praise.

Thanks for the support and for the interest in this presentation of life without sin.
The topic is never broached by those defending their "right" to remain rebellious to God.
They fight for a lost cause.

 

[At Peace]

@At Peace keep contending for the faith. I dont know what it is, but, some on here are trying to justify something that has no place in a reborn christians life.

I am a gardener too and one problem that gardeners deal with, and we can actually find out from what God tells us in Genesis, is WEEDS!

Maybe I will start a thread on that to help explain it.

Jesus frequently used the "figs from thistles, grapes from trees" parables to illustrate that a seed can only bring forth after its self.
Those born of God cannot bring forth the devil's fruit.

I can tell you one story about pulling out a giant agave that weighed a tonne. I did read the mexicans actually could use it to make tequila, but we werent going to use it for that so just dumped it. (Had to pay to get rid of it though) and it scratched us and gave us a rashes. It was half a days work to get that out from the top of a retaining wall, thankfully nobody was seriously injured.

We got it before it flowered though and seeded everywhere. Maybe we could have left it, but it was half dying and an eyesore, and the boss wanted it out. Literally a tonne of plant material. And we discovered it was in a concrete planter. Someone planted it when it was just a baby and probably thought it looked cute. Not realising when these things grow into huge monsters!

You should always consult a plant nursery before removing plants, as some plants can bring you a LOT of money.

 

[Lanolin]

You should always consult a plant nursery before removing plants, as some plants can bring you a LOT of money.

Even ugly, dying ones? Trees can be chipped for mulch and logged.
I dont know about that agave though. We could dig it out and have it transplanted in its huge state, pretty much impossible, it was up a high retaining wall and even snapped the rope when we tried to pull it out by tying it to the back of a ute.

We were chopping the leaves, or rather the spiky tentacles off near the base. It was one of those century agaves.

I tell you an even worse plant that was popular and now a weed..,phoenix palms. They have spikes too and can poke your eyes out. You couldnt resell those or use them for anything I dont think...

 

[At Peace]

Even ugly, dying ones? Trees can be chipped for mulch and logged.
I dont know about that agave though. We could dig it out and have it transplanted in its huge state, pretty much impossible, it was up a high retaining wall and even snapped the rope when we tried to pull it out by tying it to the back of a ute.

It may have been worth a call.

We were chopping the leaves, or rather the spiky tentacles off near the base. It was one of those century agaves.

I tell you an even worse plant that was popular and now a weed..,phoenix palms. They have spikes too and can poke your eyes out. You couldnt resell those or use them for anything I dont think...

I had a date palm that I had to use a hack-saw to cut off its fronds...one a month.
Usually I did it every six months, or so, so had to engage it in an enduring battle.
Got poked every time!