How Is Jesus Presenting Us As Saved in According to Our Faith?

[At Peace]

You seem to be overlooking key things.
Such as one must Learn to walk in the Newness.
The Flesh and old way of doing things does not simply stop existing in a person Just Because of this.
No Sir, it must be conquered and this can be done because we now have Christ in us.
Blessings

I have overlooked nothing.
God allows us to kill the old man, with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
Your doctrine nurtures the old man.
It's time to choose Godliness over doctrine.
Christ is not in a defiled "temple".

 

[At Peace]

Absolutely! The ways of the flesh will be with us until they are overcome. Jesus made it possible to do it in each of us, but it must be done. He will help us we are serious and willing to follow His lead through the Holy Spirit.
Give God the glory!

The ways of the flesh will be with you until you turn from sin and are baptized into Jesus Christ; and into His death, burial, and raised with Him to walk in newness of life.

 

[Lanolin]

Hi Lanolin,
I have not said any such thing.
I posted some examples that Christians do thinking it is nothing.

Blessings
W4F

How do you know they are christians then....

I am reminded of a workmate who thinks hes perfect so much so I said who died and made you God?
Until he did something that wasnt perfect, and ate humble pie.

He forgot that it takes time to learn how to do things right, that it doesnt just happen just instantly, and people learn and grow. You cant run before you walk, and nobody can walk before they crawl.

Spiritual pride can be a dangerous thing.
Job learned no matter what he did, he couldnt be more righteous than God. Ok, he might have no sinned with his lips but he sinned with his heart.

Paul even had a messenger from satan to buffet him, to stop him becoming too proud. So I guess it depends who we give the glory to, ourselves or God. For keeping us from sin.

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Don't you believe Paul's words in Rom 6;6-7?
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

That's just it. We must put forth the willingness to be willing to grow in Christ and change.
It just does not happen

I have overlooked nothing.
God allows us to kill the old man, with the affections and lusts. (Gal 5:24)
Your doctrine nurtures the old man.
It's time to choose Godliness over doctrine.
Christ is not in a defiled "temple".

No offense but you are not making sense.
That's key, God allows us to do this through growth in Christ.

I in No way Brother nurture the old nature.
Blessings

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

How do you know they are christians then....

How do you know anyone is?
Lol yep in the same way.
Blessings

 

[Lanolin]

How do you know anyone is?
Lol yep in the same way.
Blessings

Well, He does give us discernment.

When I'm concerned for someone who may not be walking the talk or practicing what they preach the Lord always gives me Proverbs 16:2 to chew over.

So Im guess it depends on how much or spirits weigh...if we are light we can be raised easily, but if we are heavy well we might be going in the other direction....

You know how hard it is to be spotless. Worse because I am short sighted, but people can be all clean on outside but inside rotten like 'white-washed sepulchres'. We can only see outside unless with Gods insight we can see inside a persons heart. And we can cos the word is quick and powerful able to discern the intents and purposes of a persons heart, see Hebrews 4:12-13

Im thinking if someones not showing any fruits, they may not be abiding in the vine. Or they just need more compost.

For people to understand about fruit they need to understand how grafting trees works. they need to know you dont cut down an old tree and then leave it to grow again you graft a new tree onto the old rootstock, but you have to keep pinching out the suckers to stop the old tree from growing, it wont bear any fruit. Only the new tree will.

To even bear fruit another thing is to have other fruit trees near for pollination, by themselves many cannot bear fruit.

With rootstocks they need to be the same as far as I know like you cant grow on olive on top of a rose root.

 

[amadeus2]

Don't you believe Paul's words in Rom 6;6-7?
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
For he that is dead is freed from sin."

When and how is it that our old man is crucified? Is it not the new man within us that is killing old man by overcoming those things that lead us to sin?

The world that contains those attractions is the little world of you and me and the other guy. It is not the world that Jesus overcame:

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world." John 16:33
Jesus overcame the world of his own flesh which was tempted by the same attractions. He did not overcome planet Earth on which men live. This is why it speaks in Revelation chapters 2 and 3 7 times of overcoming. This is the work that Jesus did not do.He overcome only his own temptations, not ours.

His sacrifice opened the Way that was closed. Now by means of the Holy Spirit and the Word of God in us it is possible to overcome the temptations in us then we may qualify for the benefits of an overcomer:

If we do not overcome, we cannot eat of the Tree of Life and never die:

"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:" Gen 3:22

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7

If we do not overcome, we have no protection against the second death:

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death." Rev 2:11

And what else will we miss because we do not overcome? What is the hidden manna and the white stone? What is our new name?

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it." Rev 2:17

And the power to rule nations is given to whom?

"And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:" Rev 2:26

And whence and to whom cometh the white raiment? Who will not have his name blotted out of the book of life?

"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels." Rev 3:5

Who will be made a pillar in God's temple? Who is it that will not again leave that temple of God?

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." Rev 3:12

Who is it that will sitting with Jesus in his throne because he overcame as Jesus overcame?

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." Rev 3:21

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." Rev 3:22

"For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:12-15

You are opining that those born of God CAN bring forth evil fruit,; counter to 1 John 3:9..."Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Perhaps it is you who is presuming who is or who is not born of God. What does being born of God as per the verse you provided mean? Remember that according to the flesh a person conceived remains in the womb for about 9 months. Then natural birth occurs but some are still born.Some die before ever attaining maturity. That is but a shadow of the real thing, and shadows are a dark image of what?

The following verse speaks of the incorruptible seed

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.'I Peter 1:23

Considering the verses I posted above from Revelation it would appear that someone who has not overcome has not been born again because he has not yet been able to enter in and eat of the Tree of Life.

God has allowed us to kill the old man...and his ways. (Gal 5:24)
That "way" is open to you still.

God has provided a Way for us to kill the old man, but we must do it and/or allow the new man within to do it:

"Wisdom hath builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars:
She hath killed her beasts; she hath mingled her wine; she hath also furnished her table." Prov 9:1-2

Has wisdom from God killed already the beasts within us so that we are no longer attracted by the temptation to sin?
Jesus who never sinned, nevertheless had those same beasts within his body of flesh encouraging to sin as we read in the gospels. He overcame all of those beasts. The means has been provided for us to do the same... but we must do it. The choice is always ours. That is what man calls "free will". We have two choices: our way [the ways of sin and death] or His Way [the Way of Life].

Jesus did not die and send the Comforter [Holy Ghost] so that we could sit back on our haunches and continue to sin because we cannot help it. The only Way around it is to overcome: What again? All that is in us that attracts us and leads us repeatedly to sin:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. " I John 2:16

Give God the glory!

The ways of the flesh will be with you until you turn from sin and are baptized into Jesus Christ; and into His death, burial, and raised with Him to walk in newness of life.

They will be with us until and if we have killed all of our beasts: the old man!

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

Well, He does give us discernment.

When I'm concerned for someone who may not be walking the talk or practicing what they preach the Lord always gives me Proverbs 16:2 to chew over.

So Im guess it depends on how much or spirits weigh...if we are light we can be raised easily, but if we are heavy well we might be going in the other direction....

You know how hard it is to be spotless. Worse because I am short sighted, but people can be all clean on outside but inside rotten like 'white-washed sepulchres'. We can only see outside unless with Gods insight we can see inside a persons heart. And we can cos the word is quick and powerful able to discern the intents and purposes of a persons heart, see Hebrews 4:12-13

Im thinking if someones not showing any fruits, they may not be abiding in the vine. Or they just need more compost.

For people to understand about fruit they need to understand how grafting trees works. they need to know you dont cut down an old tree and then leave it to grow again you graft a new tree onto the old rootstock, but you have to keep pinching out the suckers to stop the old tree from growing, it wont bear any fruit. Only the new tree will.

To even bear fruit another thing is to have other fruit trees near for pollination, by themselves many cannot bear fruit.

With rootstocks they need to be the same as far as I know like you cant grow on olive on top of a rose root.

The thing to many Forget is they have No Idea how much light they have and could be walking the best they can with the light they have.
Blessings

 

[At Peace]

That's just it. We must put forth the willingness to be willing to grow in Christ and change.
It just does not happen

What "we" need is the will to turn from sin in its entirety.
God allowed me to kill the old self and be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
A life gendered from His seed.
Seed that cannot bring forth evil fruit.
"It" does "just happen".
Those who don't, as you put it, change, don't change because they refuse to submit to God.

No offense but you are not making sense.
That's key, God allows us to do this through growth in Christ.

You must be "in Christ" in order to "grow in Christ".
You can't walk in the light, and at the same time walk in darkness.

I in No way Brother nurture the old nature.
Blessings

I beg to differ.
You defend it's existence, while I show you the scriptures that describe how to kill it.
It is written..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Gal 5:24)
It's a done deal for those that "are Christ's".
Then they CAN grow in grace and knowledge.

 

[At Peace]

When and how is it that our old man is crucified? Is it not the new man within us that is killing old man by overcoming those things that lead us to sin?

No it isn't.
You didn't read the scriptures I left you describing how the old man is killed...
...at baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins; wherein we are also "immersed" into Christ and into His death, burial, and are raised with him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
If you want to keep denying scripture, we are done here.

 

[At Peace]

They will be with us until and if we have killed all of our beasts: the old man!

"They" will be until you are crucified with Christ. (Rom 6:3-7, Gal 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1))

 

[Dave M]

Peter sin after his conversion when he did not love the gentiles as himself, and Paul had to come and address the issue, no one is perfect.

Jesus says we are to love out neighbor as yourself, so when Peter did not eat with the gentiles because they were not Jewish was he loving them as his neighbor??

Galatians 2:11-21

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

Peter sin after his conversion when he did not love the gentiles as himself, and Paul had to come and address the issue, no one is perfect.

Jesus says we are to love out neighbor as yourself, so when Peter did not eat with the gentiles because they were not Jewish was he loving them as his neighbor??

Galatians 2:11-21

Good point Dave. Jesus ate with sinners, so Peter must have forgotten that? I am not Peter's judge in this matter and even if i was asked to judge I would have to turn down the offer knowing that I too have at least once forgotten things that Jesus did and said. By grace we are saved, thankfully.

An interesting part of the Scripture you referenced, Dave, Galatians 2:19-20

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, Who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

First, if we miss the last part, we have overlooked His Grace towards us... the Son of God, Who loved me, and gave Himself for me.

And if we look at the first part, "For I through the law am dead to the law" we might be able to see that yes, according to the law, I am dead.
We need to get to that place of being able to admit it. For the unregenerate, that is a tough battle against pride but one well worth overcoming!! I am quite certain that for Paul, who was the top of the class Pharisee and law champion, to say that took courage and 100% confidence in Christ, which we can probably call, faith. Once His eyes were opened to the truth, making such an admission could be done by seeing clearly his position before God according to the law.
Every man needs his eyes opened to truth.
We are dead under the law, but thanks be to God, we are able to accept His grace and mercy in Christ Jesus the Lord and live... again.

The middle part is something of the mystery that Paul wrote also about.
Jesus said, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit." John 12:24
Paul explained (elsewhere in his letters) that the law basically gave sin it's existence which wages thereof are death. I am certain he knew what he was talking about. The law puts us to death. Enter, life.
The resurrection can not happen to a living man. Simple.
We need to die and thankfully God has and did provide a way for that to be. He also provides a way that we may live.
Can we admit we are dead? Can we then respond to all others as if we were... what reaction will a dead man give to insults hurled at him? What fleshy desire can a dead man have or chase after?

Which brings us to this, what hope is there for a dead man? Only Jesus Christ by the grace of God: He is the Life and firstfruit of the dead and he clearly said, "follow Me".

If we can admit that we are dead we then can live the life that we now live in the flesh by the faith of the Son of God Who alone is the Life and there is no life anywhere outside from or apart from Him. This is faith, and it takes faith to believe it. Let us thank God that He will finish that which He has started and by doing so, walk in the Spirit and newness of life.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

And because ye are sons,
God hath sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts,
crying, Abba, Father.
Galatians 4:6


And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. Luke 15:20

Greetings again,

Have you ever noticed in the story that we refer to as the Prodigal Son that the father never mentions anything about the son sinning? This is what he said,

But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet: and bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry: for this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry. Luke 13:22-24

Do you remember who told us this story?


Bless you ....><>

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear;
but ye have received the Spirit of adoption,
whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Romans 8:15

 

[amadeus2]

No it isn't.
You didn't read the scriptures I left you describing how the old man is killed...
...at baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins; wherein we are also "immersed" into Christ and into His death, burial, and are raised with him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:3-6)
If you want to keep denying scripture, we are done here.

My friend I have read those scriptures and all of the rest of the scriptures. Reading the scriptures alone will not get us there. Those words of the scripture must also be quickened within us by the Holy Spirit. What gets quickened is according to our surrender AND according to God's will.... not ours.

Water baptism is a good thing, but in a sense it is another of those types and shadows of the real thing. The real thing is as you have stated it, the full immersion into Christ Jesus. How long did it take Jesus to overcome the world of his flesh? It was not done when he was met on the mountain by satan and tempted there. As we see later in the Garden of Gethsemene we see Jesus praying to overcome the rebellion of his flesh against drinking the cup which was before him. At the end of the third prayer I believe he had finally overcome it all. [see Matt 26:39] You and I did not start with as much as Jesus did. He was the Word of God, but he still had to overcome the attractions of the flesh and he did.

We on the other hand had a history not only of sin, but of sinful habits. Jesus never had either. He had only the initial attractions within him because he took on flesh; that is he took on a world which tempted him to sin even though he never succumbed to it:

"For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world." I John 2:16

We came to the Lord and repented and our sins were gone, but our sinful habits were still part of us. Jesus never had those so he did not have to overcome them. We did and do. Jesus provided us with the means, but we must overcome all of those in ourselves so as to become as he is.

Baptism in water alone is a good thing, but immersion in Jesus is what is needed. While we retain our sins, our sinful ways, our sinful habits, we cannot be fully immersed. It's like being sprinkled with water instead of fully immersed in a tank of water.

 

[Laura1557]

Again, it comes back to standing versus state and the old nature vs the new nature. Our standing before God is not our state.

@Br. Bear, in post #83 you're talking about our standing before God: dead to the law. The Bible says our old nature died upon conversion and as Paul also wrote, we are new creatures in Christ.

2Co 5:17 KJV Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

As new creatures, sin no longer has dominion over us. We are no longer in bondage to sin the way we were before we were saved. An unregenerate person sins because their spirit is dead in trespasses and sin (Eph 2:1 KJV) and sinning is what an unregenerate sinner does. An unregenerate person's body and soul (mind, will, emotions) is born with a sin nature and we're all born unregenerate. This is no new news; it's fundamental doctrine.

When we are saved by the blood of Christ, our spirit is quickened (made alive) by the Holy Spirit (Eph 2:1 KJV) but we're still living in the body of flesh with which we were born. However, we don't have to, and aren't supposed to, let sin reign in our mortal body. We are to obey the Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit that is in us (1 Cor 6:19 KJV) and not obey the lusts of our flesh.

Ro 6:11 KJV Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Ro 6:12 KJV Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

@Dave M, in post #82 you're talking about Peter's state before God in the Gal 2:11-21 incident. Paul confronted Peter about his sin in that passage, and how do we know it was indeed sin? Because of what Paul wrote in Gal 2:14 KJV "But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel...."

Not walking uprightly sounds like sin according to 1 John 5:17.

Does that mean Peter wasn't saved at that time? Not at all. The Bible says he was converted back in Acts 2.

Also, 1Co 3:1-3 KJV spoke to me this morning in my devotional time.

1 Co 3:1 KJV And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 KJV I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 KJV For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

In verses 1-2, Paul is speaking to the saved believers in the Corinthian church (''brethren'') and he notes the difference between the spiritual and the carnal: but as he calls the carnal ''babes in Christ,'' it seems genuinely saved Christians can indeed walk in the flesh and not grow "unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ" (Eph 4:13 KJV).

Carnal (fleshly) Christians don't grow up, they don't spiritually mature......and that's a choice they make as the Ro 6 passage tells us we don't have to (and ought not to) let sin reign in our mortal bodies.

Some symptoms of walking in the flesh are given in verse 3: envying, strife, divisions. Paul equates "carnal" with "walking as men." As contrasted with ''the spiritual," back in verse 1.

The same applies to today's believers. They can be carnal, or spiritual; they can walk in the spirit, or walk in the flesh (Gal 5:16 KJV). After all, Paul's letters were written to Christian believers (either churches or saved individuals like Timothy, Titus and Philemon) and as such, have doctrinal application to us today.

It's a choice we make daily on an individual basis, and a choice that God will judge at the JSOC (1 Cor 3:11-15 KJV).

 

[At Peace]

Peter sin after his conversion when he did not love the gentiles as himself, and Paul had to come and address the issue, no one is perfect.

Jesus says we are to love out neighbor as yourself, so when Peter did not eat with the gentiles because they were not Jewish was he loving them as his neighbor??

Galatians 2:11-21

Which neighbor?
The Gentile ones or the Jewish ones?
The two groups had differing standards.

If his choice was a sin, then he wasn't yet converted from self gratification to Godly servitude..
I can't agree with that.

 

[Lanolin]

Which neighbor?
The Gentile ones or the Jewish ones?
The two groups had differing standards.

If his choice was a sin, then he wasn't yet converted from self gratification to Godly servitude..
I can't agree with that.

I dont think he didnt eat with them, because they were not jewish, peter wrote in his letter he wasnt eating with them cos they were rioting and getting drunk. And they thought it was strange he wasnt still eating or running with them.

It would be like people accusing you of not eating with people of a diffferent ethnicity and thinking you racist, but your reason for not eating with certain people isnt racist, it just that they were having parties that get out of hand so you dont actually want to go there.

Notice that Peter writes in his letter its the gentiles who think its strange he's no longer hanging out with them when he used to before. He still likes them but he wants to be sober.

Peter initally had qualms abiut eating with gentiles cos of the kosher clean unclean foods law. Gentiles werent kosher. God showed him he didnt have to worry about that anymore.

 

[At Peace]

I dont think he didnt eat with them, because they were not jewish, peter wrote in his letter he wasnt eating with them cos they were rioting and getting drunk. And they thought it was strange he wasnt still eating or running with them.

You are misapplying an irrelevant scripture.
Peter wouldn't eat with the Gentiles because he was afraid the Jewish visitors would fault him for eating Gentiles; which was contrary to the law the Jews still ignorantly held to.
Peter's mistake was his inference that those laws-customs still held any validity.

It would be like people accusing you of not eating with people of a diffferent ethnicity and thinking you racist, but your reason for not eating with certain people isnt racist, it just that they were having parties that get out of hand so you dont actually want to go there.

That example ignores the fact that Barnabas and others also left the Gentile's table.
Barnabas wouldn't have been at the table if your example were correct.

Notice that Peter writes in his letter its the gentiles who think its strange he's no longer hanging out with them when he used to before. He still likes them but he wants to be sober.

Different situation entirely.

 

[Lanolin]

Hmm well we have Paul side of the story and we have Peter's side so just putting it out there.
You can interpret how you wish but as we both werent there at the time cant really say for certain if Peter was sinning. I wouldnt think so, but by keeping away he was probably giving mixed messages to new believers.

Maybe Barnabas just followed Peter's example. Who knows why dont we just ask God?

Lord, was Peter sinning after conversion????