We are considering two single people, a man and a woman, neither have been married before.
First and foremost, sex was a gift from God, for a man and a woman who are married to one another and have become 'one body'
An unmarried man, or unmarried woman, masturbating and thinking of sex with another, is fantasising, thinking and visualising sex with another, it is lusting for the flesh.
Secondly, as single people, they are not one body, they are not yet married, they may be engaged to one another, but that engagement could be broken before they are married. So in effect the man or the woman is visualising imagining having sex with the other whilst masturbating. The person or persons are therefore lusting for the flesh of another. There minds are on worldly passions.
1 John 2:15-16 (NKJV) - LUSTING of the Flesh
Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
For all that is in the world--the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.
1 Thessalonians 4:3-5 (NKJV) - Sanctification of our own vessel not in passion of lust
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust
Matthew 5:27-30 (NKJV) - Lust of the eye and adultery included but not relevant to this point of the discussion. Unless looking at sexual images of the other.
"You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not commit adultery.'
But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Hebrews 13:4-5 (NKJV) - Being content with your body, not undefiling the bed (before wedlock)
Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators and adulterers God will judge.
Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."
1 Corinthians 7:5 (NKJV) - Self control of your vessel
Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
Matthew 19:4-6 (NKJV) - They are unmarried, they are still one flesh
And He answered and said to them, "Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female,'
and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'?
So then, they are no longer two but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
Mark 10:6-9 (NKJV) - They are unmarried, they are still one flesh
But from the beginning of the creation, God 'made them male and female.'
'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife,
and the two shall become one flesh'; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh.
Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate."
1 Corinthians 7:1-4 (NKJV) - Sexual immorality
Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband.
Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
The man has no authority over the woman and the woman has no authority over the man, 'until' they are married.
The man has no authority to think of sex with the woman, they are not one, they may be engaged, but they are still individual vessels. If it is not good for a man to 'touch a woman', how can it be right to masturbate and simulate sexual intercourse in his mind. The same applies to the woman touching or thinking sexually of the man.
The person masturbating is coveting the body of the other person, wanting it sexually, the person is lusting for the flesh!
Ephesians 5:1-7 (NKJV) -
Therefore be imitators of God as dear children.
And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us and given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma.
But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints;
neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Therefore do not be partakers with them.
Masturbation is not sin, the sin is in the lusting and coveting.
A man or women are not one body until married, they should not be touching the other, they should not be visualising sexual intercourse with the other.
1 Thess above each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust.
Shalom
‘lusting for the flesh’ How many times do I have to explain what the Greek means and you just keep reverting your own overreaching interpretation of Scripture!? (Read post #14 again, It appears that you have forgotten already. About Matthew 5:27-32 (yes up to and including verse 32) which basically means: if you intend to cheat on your spouse you have already committed adultery. If looking causes you to intend to cheat on your spouse, don’t look! If touching (‘friendy’ hugs, etc) causes you to intend to cheat on your spouse, don’t touch! Don’t think you can get around this by divorcing you spouse in order marry your new interest, because such a divorce to remarry is also adultery!)).
'Epithumeó' is a verb (doing, expressed action) i.e. 'covetING' rather than 'covet', a strong desire with INTENT.
It ‘...doesn't mean just seeing a woman and being attracted to her. That's not the concept here, the concept is where you actually take steps to try and bring about some kind of improper conduct or improper act.' [Paul, The Law And The Church/ Dr Dwight a Pryor/ Disc 1 - Track 6 - 0 minutes 58 seconds/
www.cfi.org.uk] So attraction isn't a sin, it's the intention of pursuing an adulterous sexual relationship (regardless whether they try to or not succeed in getting the adulterous sexual relations or not).
‘By the word lust, Jesus did not refer to sexual desire or the normal attraction between men and women. The word lust is the same in Greek that is sometimes translated “coveting.” It is desire that focuses on a woman with the view of possessing her or having an immoral relationship with her. It is a look with a purpose. To put it another way, it is “I would if I could.” Only convention, her husband, or fear of getting caught stops us. The stress of lust is in its purpose. Anyone who purposes in the heart to commit adultery has already committed it in God’s eyes.’ Hadden W. Robinson, The Christian Salt & Light Company (Discovery House Publishers, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1988), p142-143
‘...I would not have known about coveting (epithumia,
Strong's Greek: 1939. ἐπιθυμία (epithumia) -- desire, passionate longing, lust) if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet (Epithumeó).”’(Rom 7:7).
More specifically as far as coveting is concerned, the apostle Paul is quoting the tenth comandment:
‘You shall not covet your neighbour’s house; you SHALL NOT COVET [Hebrew: Chamad] YOUR NEIGHBOR’S WIFE or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbour.’ (Ex 20:17, NASB).
Chamad is‘... “to desire (brings damage upon the thing or person desired) and to try to obtain”...with the result that a legal maxim has become a rule for governing conduct...’ (Loader, William. The Septuagint, Sexuality, and the New Testament: Case Studies on the Impact of the LXX in Philo and the New Testament (Grand Rapids: William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2004) p 10 footnotes 7)
‘...the choice is indicative of the focus, which, while including passion, is on the acquisition of property.’ (Loader, William. The Septuagint, Sexuality, and the New Testament: Case Studies on the Impact of the LXX in Philo and the New Testament (Grand Rapids: William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2004) p 10)
‘Within the context of the tenth commandment the focus is upon possession of what belongs to another’s household, including a wife. The focus is therefore on the desire to possess, which includes house field, slaves and animals. Attention is being given not primarily to theft not to the act of adultery, but to the response which might lead to both as forms of theft from one’s neighbour.’ (Loader, William. The Septuagint, Sexuality, and the New Testament: Case Studies on the Impact of the LXX in Philo and the New Testament (Grand Rapids: William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2004) p 11)
‘The verb [action] epituméo corresponds to a Hebrew word which implies a temptation to acquire ownership...which lends itself to the notion of acquisition of property.’ (Loader, William. The Septuagint, Sexuality, and the New Testament: Case Studies on the Impact of the LXX in Philo and the New Testament (Grand Rapids: William B Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2004) p 10 notes)
Chamand is a ‘...emotion of desiring included the act off taking possession...an emotion and a corresponding action’ [Brevard S. Childs, The Book of Exodus (Westminster John Knox Press, Louisvill, Kentucky, 2004) p426]
Gal 5:19-21 ' Now the deeds of the flesh (sarx) are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions, envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.'
'Flesh' is the Greek word sarx can refer to good things; such as sexual intercourse as in marriage (Eph 5:31) and Jesus’ sinless body (Jn 1:14; 1 Jn 4:2, 3). As in the previous chapter Genesis God said the human body is ‘very good.’ Sarx is more commonly used for a the negative meaning of; making decisions (actions) according to self i.e. done apart from faith, human nature (with its frailties (physically or morally) and passions):- carnally minded, (sinful human nature)
So ‘Lust of the flesh’ is actively intending to pursue an immoral sexual relationship.
‘First and foremost, sex was a gift from God, for a man and a woman who are married to one another and have become 'one body'’
Agreed. Two have become one flesh in the way that He permits (marriage).
‘Secondly, as single people, they are not one body, they are not yet married, they may be engaged to one another, but that engagement could be broken before they are married. So in effect the man or the woman is visualising imagining having sex with the other whilst masturbating. The person or persons are therefore lusting for the flesh of another. There minds are on worldly passions. ‘
'Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure (hagnos), whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think (logizomai) on these things.' (Philippians 4:8)
'Think' on the Greek is logizomai
Strong's Greek: 3049. λογίζομαι (logizomai) -- to reckon, to consider which is 'to to consider, take account, weigh, meditate on' and is a verb ( verb being an action, in this case an action of thought). ‘...the two actives in [Matthew 5] v. 27, 28’.[Richard C.H. Lenski, Interpretation of St.Matthew's Gospel 1-14 (Lenski's Commentary on the New Testament): 1-14 v. 1 (Augsburg Fortress Publishers (1 Nov. 2008)) p233]
'Pure' is the Greek word 'hagnos'
Strong's Greek: 53. ἁγνός (hagnos) -- free from ceremonial defilement, holy, sacred which is to be ' free from ceremonial defilement, HOLY, sacred'
What is one of the holy things we can think upon? Marital sexual relations is holy, a holy duty 'Stop depriving one another...' 1Cor7:5 (IN HIS IMAGE: Biblical Insights into Love Marriage & the Family (CDs), by Dwight Pryor
Online Shop - CFI Communications ). So Philippians 4:8 teaches us that we are to think on the holy, even the holy act of marital sexual relations. As the Bible says fornication, homosexual sex, incest and adultery are sins; we are not to dwell on committing sinful acts of non-marital sex, but we can think on marital sex.
‘Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ himself? Shall I then take the members of Christ and unite them with a prostitute? Never! Do you not know that he who unites himself with a prostitute is one with her in body? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."’ (1Cor16:15-16).
The above although specifically about prostitution, show even one off sexual encounter between a unmarried couple is a sin and creates a one flesh bond. Whereas masturbation or fantasy about marital sex doesn't create a one flesh union because there is one else around to create the one flesh union with. It’s only the active intention to pursue fornication that is covering which is defined as sin. Obviously in a boyfriend-girlfriend relationship there should be physical/practical boundaries to prevent the relationship from slipping into an act of fornication. So fantasy about marital sexual relations around each other should be off limits because that could actually lead to intending to pursue fornication. But there is no Biblical prohibition about fantasising about marital sexual intimacy alone. If one is finding it tempting to pursue fornication with their boyfriend/girlfriend then, repent and the fantasy would better restricted to an imaginary spouse or merely focusing on their own physical sensations. If they break up then it’s best they no longer fantasise about that person, especially if they or their ex find someone else. Whereas a single who not in a dating relationship has no one who they can fornicate with. So fantasising on their own about future marital sexual relations isn’t against the Bible. If such thoughts cause them to intend to pursue fornication, repent, then they should restrict their thoughts to purely focusing on their own physical sensations.
‘worldly passions’
“It teaches us to say ‘No’ to ungodliness and worldly passions (epithumia), and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age” (Titus 2:11-12).
The same epithumia as previously mentioned. Sexually, this is the active intention to pursue what the Bible has forbidden (Fornication, adultery...) along with coveting (actively intending to pursue) the wealth and possessions that belong to others (ie treating them bad, theft).
‘Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world--the lust (epithumia)of the flesh (sarx), the lust (epithumia) of the eyes, and the pride of life--is not of the Father but is of the world.’ (1Jn2:15-16).
The same epithumia; intending to pursue what is forbidden.
The same sarx; sinful nature.
Nothing to do with fantasy about marital sexual relations.
‘Now concerning the things about which you wrote, it is good for a man not to touch a woman. But because of immoralities, each man is to have his own wife, and each woman is to have her own husband. The husband must fulfill his duty to his wife, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.’ (1Cor7:1-5)
Paul is repeating their question ‘Touch a woman’, it is a ephamisum for having sexual relations. Some were arguing singleness was better than getting married. But I totally agree that touching some sexually outside of marriage is sin, it’s forplay which is part of sexual relations. Why did you deliberately stop at verse 4 and not include verse 5? Verse 4 to 5 is is saying that married couples don’t have the right to deprive one another of sexual relations (nothing to do with fantasy). He is alluding the the Jewish law of Onarh (spelling?) based on ‘If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, or her marital rights [sex].’ (Exodus 21:10). Where Jewish commentary specifies how often a married couple should have sex depending on his occupation. If deprived her she had grounds for divorce. (
Online Shop - CFI Communications)
See the above about converting.
‘Marriage is honorable among all, and the bed undefiled; but fornicators (pornos) and adulterers God will judge. Let your conduct be without covetousness (aphilarguros); be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."’ (Hebrews 13:4-5).
‘Being content with your body, not undefiling the bed (before wedlock)’
pornos is having unmarried sex. Fornication and adultery creates a one flesh bound outside of marriage which defiles the marriage. Whereas a single fantasising about marital sexual intimacy doesn’t defile a marriage.
Aphilarguros means: without love of money. So it’s saying about being content with your wages, nothing to do with your body. Besides coveting is intending to pursue an immoral sexual relationship. Yes, we should make the best of what we have. ‘He who finds a wife finds what is good and receives favor from the LORD.’ (Proverbs 18:22). ‘Finds’ in the Hebrew is a verb, an action (so actively looking is fine).
Proverbs 18:22 Interlinear: Whoso hath found a wife hath found good, And bringeth out good-will from Jehovah.
Mat19:4-9; Mk10:6-9 ‘They are unmarried, they are still one flesh’
If a couple have sexual relations outside of marriage there’s a one flesh bound, albeit immoral. Nothing to do with fantasy about marital sexual intimacy.
‘For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality (porneia); that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in lustful (epithumia) passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you. For God has not called us for the purpose of impurity, but in sanctification.’ (1Thes4:3-7).
This passage calls us to abstain from porneia (fornication, adultery,...). We look after our vessel by not doing such acts. The action noun of epithumia means activity intending to pursue the porneia just mentioned, which defrauds the brother of that untainted one flesh bound with his wife; because of tainting of that act of fornication with someone else prior to the marriage or adulterous act with someone outside the marriage. God will avenge such acts, because God calls those acts impure.
‘Sanctification of our own vessel not in passion of lust [epithumia]’ Again you reading into epithumia what it doesn’t mean and chopped off verse 6 & 7 to hide the content of the passage.
‘...But fornication (porneia) and all uncleanness (akatharsia) or covetousness (pleonexia), let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness..., but rather giving of thanks.
For this you know, that no fornicator (porneia), unclean (akathartos) person, nor covetous (pleonektés) man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them.’ (Eph5:1-7)
pleonexia is a noun (an action): aggression, desire for advantage, greedy desire to have more. (a feminine noun) points to a brandof covetousness, defined by the context.
Pleonektés is a noun (an action): a greedy, covetous, rapacious, person; a defrauder, trampling on the rights of others. One eager to have more especially what belongs to another
Aselgeia is ‘outrageous conduct, conduct shocking to public decency, a wanton violence), wantonness, lewdness.’
Strong's Greek: 766. ἀσέλγεια (aselgeia) -- licentiousness, wantonness
licentiousness:’behaviour that is sex, in a way that is uncontrolled and socially unacceptable.’
LICENTIOUSNESS | meaning in the Cambridge English Dictionary
‘lacking legal or moral restraints especially : disregarding sexual restraints’
Definition of LICENTIOUS
Sounds like it’s referring to sexually promiscuous lifestyle, couples having sex in public for all to see or something that happens at the homosexual Pride Parade
Lewd Pride parade leaves me weeping for a nation’s lost innocence - Anglican Mainstream
‘Masturbation is not sin, the sin is in the lusting and coveting. A man or women are not one body until married, they should not be touching the other, they should not be visualising sexual intercourse with the other.’
I totally agree that unmarried couple shouldn’t be touching one another sexually that’s forplay which is part of sex. At least your honest that masturbation isn’t a sin, nowhere condemned in the Bible. But there is also nothing in the Bible to say when man/woman is on their own they cannot think about marital sexual intimacy, no one flesh bond is created by a thought. Marital sex is a holy act we can think upon.
Why read into the Bible what it doesn’t say? It’s the sin of legalism (going above an beyond what the Bible says).
