If you don't do the things Jesus said, and you call yourself a Christian, are you really a Christian?

[Dovegiven]

Contention requiring clarification #1 Are you praying in tongues or is it the "Spirit" praying in tongues? If you use 1 Corinthians 14th chapter, it is Paul prying while he is speaking in tongues that someone else will interpret that tongue so he can understand it and be fruitful to himself. That said, proves tongues are not for private use when Paul taught others to pray that someone else will interpret; otherwise if there was no necessity when done in private use, why for public use?

#2 If still in refusal, since many tongue speakers say tongues self edify and yet the Spirit uses tongues to pray at supposedly His own volition and not because you want to pray in tongues, how do you know what that tongue is doing since that is 2 direction being done here without interpretation to know which direction that tongue is doing; is it to you for self edification or to God in prayer? Now how is that not plain confusion just on the face of that alone and yet we are to abstain from all appearance of evil.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

#3 When sinners in world's religions, idolatries, and the occult speak in the same ecstatic tongue which is gibberish nonsense which is NOT a language of men BEFORE Pentecost came with God's gift of tongues of other men's lips to speak unto the people, how can you prove that these sinners have repented of those spirits and that tongue if God changes His gift of tongues of foreign language to be like that kind of tongue found in the world before Pentecost?

#4 If we are NOT to believe every spirit but test them by knowing He is in us so that anything coming over us later on in life as a saved believer is NOT the Holy Spirit as per 1 John 4:1-4 KJV for why even the tongues are to be tested in 1 John 4:5-6 KJV because there is that supernatural tongue in the world, how is it that believers want to believe that spirit that came over bringing that kind of tongue is the "Holy Spirit" when God is not the author of confusion in any church or believer?



The parable of the ten virgins.

Then there is Revelation's references;

Revelation 21:9And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 22:17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.



Paul did in Ephesians 5:23. Just in case your Bible version has it different and the site's special feature is not working; here it is in the KJV

Ephesians 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. …31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. KJV

Don't forget John the Baptist's.

John 3:28 Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
I understand your point of view but hopefully the scriptures I have shown has proven why I believe it is more than just metaphorical since we will be one with God.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

I assume you do not have a personal prayer closet where you are free to pray about hard issues with tongues or with the personal understanding. I searched about that here, not finding a discussion about that. I go there sometimes asking God "What can I possibly pray to deal with that?".
1 Corinthians 14:1-5 (KJV)
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Can't God understand mysteries presented by the Spirit? After all, the Holy Spirit in me speaks mysteries. I think when Jesus prayed He was speaking to Father God, not to men. I believe Jesus taught we also should pray to God. Prayer ought not be confined to a Church meeting where everyone undestands every word you speak. I pray often until "breaking through", as I learned long ago.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

What is evil about my being edified when praying? Should any of us not need to be built up in the Spirit Monday through Saturday, having to otherwise wait until Sunday? I think I need daily edification. I have already been edified a lot, but want to be a stronger building.

Certainly, when in public, if and when I pray or make any utterance, I alone am edified unless the understanding of my utterance is shared by "all" To some that will be a prophesy for the believers. For unbelievers who are listening it will amount to a sign. That's why when I speak in public it will be prophesy, forthtelling the gospel of Christ to all ears. For that I love being emboldened (edified) beforehand.

Paul wished all Christians spoke in tongues, but some discourage that because they don't have understanding. Most apparently want anyone speaking be as an oracle of God, speaking new things that tickle the ear.

I let the Holy Spirit direct my prayers. Praying in tongues in public, or interpreting tongues, is not one of my spiritual gifts. I study, I pray. Then I go pray with my wife with understanding, and sometimes she has to pray in tongues to come alongside with understanding.

 

[KingJ]

OK Sin instead of fail.....................I do not believe that God wants anybody to SIN...Do you Want your kid to steal? Or to lie? or to beat up his/her little sister? Of course you do! How else can they learn? Right?

God does want us to sin and then from a position of being in sin, hate it and repent. Just as He hates it. This is why He has made it that we can sin with just a thought Matt 5:28.

As for my kid stealing and beating his little sister, of course not. But he will only be able to refrain from such if he is able to have the sinful thoughts and then reject them. God gives my son the ability to raise his hand to his sister. Muscles, the hand, the arm and the ability to get upset. My child decides to lower his hand. God sees about ten sins take place before any actual physical abuse commences. If the actual act of beating or stealing takes place, they have fallen into a more grievous sin. Committing more grievous sins points to us not hating what is evil. Not desiring repentance. ''Failing''.

 

[KingJ]

You used your free will to not accept free will is what it is, free will.

:grin:

 

[JesusIs4Me]

Open a new thread on free will. Replying to this post will derail this one.

I can stop talking about your point regarding free will since you had to use that phrase to make your point.

I would like to discuss with you why after having been giving the ability to discern good and evil Gen 3:22 you are '''ok''' with serving a partial / evil God.

Genesis 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

That is a another good verse in proving the Triune God, but as for your question; why does knowing good and evil makes God partially or even evil?

Some have problems with this reference below.

Isaiah 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

God is free to judge in rendering punishment to His people. The global flood is an evil that God had created, but that does not make Him evil no more than society punishing criminals by putting them behind bars or executing them.

Hope that settles that point because as it is, that is all I need to say about it.

So many scriptures quoted out of context as well.

But not hard for you to see where I am coming from, right? Even if you do disagree with its rightly dividing the word of truth, but I do not wish to argue the point as if I can change your mind. Just sharing. So you can drop it if you think this will continue to veer further from the topic to derail this thread.

 

[Bendito]

God does want us to sin and then from a position of being in sin, hate it and repent. Just as He hates it. This is why He has made it that we can sin with just a thought Matt 5:28.

As for my kid stealing and beating his little sister, of course not. But he will only be able to refrain from such if he is able to have the sinful thoughts and then reject them. God gives my son the ability to raise his hand to his sister. Muscles, the hand, the arm and the ability to get upset. My child decides to lower his hand. God sees about ten sins take place before any actual physical abuse commences. If the actual act of beating or stealing takes place, they have fallen into a more grievous sin. Committing more grievous sins points to us not hating what is evil. Not desiring repentance. ''Failing''.

Ok...So what you're saying is that God wants us to be tempted but He does not want us to do the ugly deed. Is that right? You want your kid to be tempted to rob your wallet but you do not want him to actually do it?
From previous statements from you, I assume you equate temptation with corruption. Two completely different things...The temptation is only that, temptation. Corruption is getting down and dirty by doing the ugly deed.
Now....I challenge you to show me in the Word where God WANTS me to be tempted. I'm really tired of Churchianity doctrine...I want Word.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

If you want people to take you seriously in what you say then may i suggest that you walk what you are talking.

One breath you denounce free will THEN you take full advantage of free will and act on free will.

Its your free will to believe what ever you want.

You used your free will to not accept free will is what it is, free will.

So how is this?
Blessings

According to Matthew 11:25-27 KJV , If the Father hid His Son from the wise and the prudent and reveals Him to babes, what chance does free will have in choosing to believe in Him?

Indeed, John 6:44 KJV shows the Father drawing us unto the Son to reveal His Son to us whereas in John 3:18-21 KJV is the reason why God would not draw others to reveal the Son to them because He knew ahead of time that they prefer their evil deeds rather than come to Him to be reproved of them. That is why Matthew 7:6-8 has Jesus warning His disciples about who not to preach to that are not seeking Him at all but rather preach to those that are seeking Him.

With sin blinding sinners and they can only see by the Father's intervention, where does free will come in? He would not even bother to reveal His Son to the sinner knowing he prefers his evil deeds rather than come to Him to be reproved of them. So why glamorize the free will of man? Especially in light of John 1:12-13 KJV that our being born again of the Spirit is of God and not of the will of man which has to include that concept of free will?

The point of all this is how to follow Jesus; by believing in Him as our Good Shepherd t help us to follow Him. When I am convicted by His words, I turn to Him for the forgiveness and the help I need to repent as well as to follow Him. That is why I speak against will power or the religious flesh of keeping a commitment to follow Christ or a promise to Christ as if that is the power in how we are to follow Jesus Christ when it is not because the law is not of faith, and this who do them will live by them and be judged by the law. That is why it is written that the just shall live by faith in Him and all His promises to us because His New Covenant is not lacking anything that requires us to tack our filthy rags of righteousness to it by the law.

When you are tempted or faced with dark forces, you go to Jesus for help. You do not do it by your will power or force of will. If you think you did, you are sadly mistaken.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

I assume you do not have a personal prayer closet where you are free to pray about hard issues with tongues or with the personal understanding. I searched about that here, not finding a discussion about that. I go there sometimes asking God "What can I possibly pray to deal with that?".
1 Corinthians 14:1-5 (KJV)
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

Can't God understand mysteries presented by the Spirit? After all, the Holy Spirit in me speaks mysteries. I think when Jesus prayed He was speaking to Father God, not to men. I believe Jesus taught we also should pray to God. Prayer ought not be confined to a Church meeting where everyone undestands every word you speak. I pray often until "breaking through", as I learned long ago.

Wrong translations but it is understandable why you believe in that way.

1 Corinthians 14:1Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

There are no mysteries to God therefore you are not understanding what Paul is saying. The term "unto God" or "to God" is signifying that God understands what he is saying as Paul points out that man do not understand him when he speaks in tongues for in the spirit, he speaks mysteries and so it is to the men hearing that tongue speaker, it is a mystery. That means the tongue speaker is not alone when speaking in tongues. This is being done in the assembly. Verse 1 is about exhorting believers that are zealous for spiritual gifts to seek the gift of prophesy over all gifts and began in verse 2 to explain why over tongues, because tongues is a singular gift whereby nobody understands him except God. Prophesy is better because tongues needs interpretation for the edification of the assembly. Hence tongues was not nor is it a stand alone gift for private use.

We see this use of unto God again in another verse.

1 Corinthians 14: 26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

In the church at Corinth where the practice is for two or three speak in tongues and another interpret, foreigners visiting the assembly may be confused by this and stand up to speak in his native tongue for why there is no interpretation coming because that was not manifested by the Holy Spirit. That is why he is told to be silent in the assembly when there is no interpretation because "he speak to himself and to God" is that he understands what he is saying as God does too, and therefore he is to be made silent in the assembly because he is speaking out of turn. He is allowed to speak at the appropriate time because he understands what he is saying as God does too.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

What is evil about my being edified when praying? Should any of us not need to be built up in the Spirit Monday through Saturday, having to otherwise wait until Sunday? I think I need daily edification. I have already been edified a lot, but want to be a stronger building.

Certainly, when in public, if and when I pray or make any utterance, I alone am edified unless the understanding of my utterance is shared by "all" To some that will be a prophesy for the believers. For unbelievers who are listening it will amount to a sign. That's why when I speak in public it will be prophesy, forthtelling the gospel of Christ to all ears. For that I love being emboldened (edified) beforehand.

Paul wished all Christians spoke in tongues, but some discourage that because they don't have understanding. Most apparently want anyone speaking be as an oracle of God, speaking new things that tickle the ear.

I let the Holy Spirit direct my prayers. Praying in tongues in public, or interpreting tongues, is not one of my spiritual gifts. I study, I pray. Then I go pray with my wife with understanding, and sometimes she has to pray in tongues to come alongside with understanding.

The evil is God is not a copy cat to mimick that supernatural tongue that has been in the world before Pentecost came with the real God's gift of tongues of foreign languages to speak to the people. His gift of tongues is not gibberish nonsense for why there is no interpretation coming. Paul says he prays that someone else will interpret so that the tongue will be understood and be fruitful to himself; thus if this is so in the assembly, it cannot be for private use.

The comparison of prophesy against tongues is to show that the edification by tongues is not a stand alone gift that it requires interpretation whereas prophesy does not but edifies as it is spoken. Tongues is only edifying when interpreted.

The fact that this tongue has been gained by what believers believe is the Holy Spirit filling them or baptizing them later on in life proves that is not God's gift of tongues because that was not the Holy Spirit when He has been in them since salvation when they had come to and believed in Jesus Christ at the calling of the gospel.

As it is, tongue speakers today speak of all the benefits of tongues for private use and like it or not, they cannot avoid the appearance of evil when they say we have no need of you to other members of the body of Christ because interpretation of tongues are not coming and God is not the author of that tongue nor that confusion when you cannot prove or even know for sure you are being self edified or the Spirit is praying unless interpreted by another.

1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

That means before chapter 14, tongues is not a stand alone gift; period.

1 Corinthians 12:2 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 14 For the body is not one member, but many.

That means in relations to gifts in that chapter, it is not gained by receiving another drink of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation. You don't see any other gifts received that way, but tongues are hyped as a sign when seeking to receive a baptism of the Holy Ghost apart from salvation and yet 1 Corinthians 14:22 KJV says tongues are not to serve as a sign to already saved believers for anything but to the unbelievers.

1 Corinthians 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

Tongue speakers are saying verse 21 above because they are saying tongues are for private use and need no interpretation. So all these 3 points are refuting tongue speakers for wresting Paul's words in 14th chapter as if Paul is exalting the gift of tongues over prophesy as if he is validating tongues as a stand alone gift for private use and he wasn't. It is like mocking his exhortation to seek prophesy over tongues like an epic fail while tongue speakers today exhort tongues for private use for already saved believers to seek after by seeking a baptism with the Holy Ghost as a sign. This is the apostasy prophesied in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 KJV for why Isaiah 8:19 KJV is proof that tongue found in the occult is not of Him at all.

 

[KingJ]

Ok...So what you're saying is that God wants us to be tempted but He does not want us to do the ugly deed. Is that right? You want your kid to be tempted to rob your wallet but you do not want him to actually do it?
From previous statements from you, I assume you equate temptation with corruption. Two completely different things...The temptation is only that, temptation. Corruption is getting down and dirty by doing the ugly deed.
Now....I challenge you to show me in the Word where God WANTS me to be tempted. I'm really tired of Churchianity doctrine...I want Word.

Bendito, our discussion has moved from God being ok with corruption around us to God being ok with corruption in us.

I want to first consol the first argument. There is simply no debate that God wants evil in this world He has created for us. NO DEBATE. Once you have properly grasped this we can move on to the grasp the other matter being raised. I don't feel you have grasped this properly by your questions. I just don't know what other scripture hits home harder then me stating the fact that God put the biggest sinner of all time with us. To deceive us. Do you think God was ever surprised that Adam and Eve got deceived to sin when He put the devil with them? Please grasp this and then read on. If you disagree with this there is 'no' point discussing further.

Ok...So what you're saying is that God wants us to be tempted but He does not want us to do the ugly deed. Is that right? You want your kid to be tempted to rob your wallet but you do not want him to actually do it?

Correct, with the exception that as humans we are not 'His children'. As further explained below.

From previous statements from you, I assume you equate temptation with corruption. Two completely different things...The temptation is only that, temptation. Corruption is getting down and dirty by doing the ugly deed.

What previous statement makes you assume I equate temptation with corruption?

Sin is doing the ugly deed and sin has degrees. Corruption in my posts speaks to an environment around us. Corrupt religions. Corrupted scriptures. Corrupt people. An environment where the natural law among animals is so barbaric and hostile. God made this corrupted environment. It pleased Him. He does what pleases Him. All this is however evidence of a good God as it is the perfect setting needed for true free will to exist. The death of Jesus on the cross just further proving it. It pleased God to bruise Jesus. Pleased God to see Jesus beaten and crucified before the foundations of the earth.

Now....I challenge you to show me in the Word where God WANTS me to be tempted. I'm really tired ofChurchianity doctrine...I want Word.

There is no such scripture. God delivers us from temptation because we are His people. God tests us. We are His people because we have chosen to hate what is evil. Temptation of sin is still all around us, but we are new creations who can resist it. We can only make mistakes of sin. No Christian can live on in sin unrepentant. Hence the environment of temptation / sin having power / devil having our ear is in our past.

Fact remains however that before we were saved, it pleased God that we have the devil / the greatest tempter of all time with us. It hence pleased God that we be in sin and from that position choose to repent and accept Jesus. 1 + 1 = 2. No additional scripture is needed just applied common sense.

Maybe just this one:

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

 

[Dovegiven]

Was Jesus lying about what the Father said?

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Did not Jesus warned that this will happen to the sayings of His disciples too?

John 15:20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

There is ample evidence that 1 John 5:7 of the Textus Receptus was originally in scripture as far back as 250 A.D. per extrabiblical references rather than just inserted by Erasmus of that time period.

If you know about that "debate" over the KJV, then you also know not all Bibles are saying the same thing. So why believe there is no necessity to discern with Him which Bible loves Him to keep His words and the sayings of His disciples from the Bibles that are not? Even you can look up 1 Corinthians 1:18 and compare with the KJV that we are saved as opposed to "are being saved" for why many believers today think they are not saved yet. Changing His words causes people to doubt His words elsewhere that says otherwise in that same Bible they are reading and so there's the rub. Would God lie to teach a truth? No, but God already told us that some will not love Him to keep His words. So we need Him to discern who loved Him to keep His words from those that did not. When using the NASB and the NIV for so long until I saw the KJV keeping the truth in His words and did not decline from the testimonies of the Son, I thank the Lord Jesus Christ for that and that is why I rely only on the KJV.

The interlinears I'm using show the 1 Cor 1:18 Greek word sOzomenois always means a rescue in progress, being saved. So the ESV is right, and according to
Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Our being saved is a life-long commitment. There is no ticket to Heaven for once believing and being water baptized, so called "Once saved always saved", especially when a former believer stops obeying, stops working out his own responsibility to God. If a believer doesn't begin making a habit of quenching the Spirit, he keeps being saved. One's status at death of complying with the requirements of God, having remained faithful, and not apostate, determines whether the rescue process continued to the end.

The KJV is right to leave out the Greek meaning of "being", in that God's plan, if followed, has a believer "saved" every day, but on condition. We should understand that in light of what to think about (Philippians 4), contrary to what many folks choose, like movies, TV entertainment, phone games, to their hurt, and according to
2 Peter 1:1-15 (KJV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

I believe many American church leaders and members are in general losing remembrance, if having learned the essentials well enough to comprehend them. I think it's best not to discourage anyone from at least beginning with a Bible version by which a reader can discover Jesus, then hopefully work out the differences in Bible versions, and perhaps begin searching an interlinear, which leaves out the added (in italics in the KJV).

You surely realize the KJV fills in many verses with words not in the base texts. Well, the ESV leaves some of those KJV italic words out, and vice versa. As English usage continues to change, size of vocabulary dropping at an alarming rate, so becomes the continued need for simplicity and amplification. I should point out there are in the works some perverted versions that will promote

The Amplified serves up an array of added words that are helpful to get a general view of a verse. I prefer the KJV simply because I have no problem with the language nuances, but carry a smart phone with many versions to be selected depending upon hearer ability. My memorized verses are all KJV. A child not exposed to any Bible will not gain much if anything from hearing the KJV, like for me when a child. It might as well be in Chinese then for all I knew back then. I could comprehend a story told in plain spoken English about Noah and Mary and Joseph. But even if a person comprehends the words, practically all hearers need commentary and testimony from me and anyone else I know who witnesses to the lost.

 

[Bendito]

Bendito, our discussion has moved from God being ok with corruption around us to God being ok with corruption in us.

I want to first consol the first argument. There is simply no debate that God wants evil in this world He has created for us. NO DEBATE. Once you have properly grasped this we can move on to the grasp the other matter being raised. I don't feel you have grasped this properly by your questions. I just don't know what other scripture hits home harder then me stating the fact that God put the biggest sinner of all time with us. To deceive us. Do you think God was ever surprised that Adam and Eve got deceived to sin when He put the devil with them? Please grasp this and then read on. If you disagree with this there is 'no' point discussing further.



Correct, with the exception that as humans we are not 'His children'. As further explained below.



What previous statement makes you assume I equate temptation with corruption?

Sin is doing the ugly deed and sin has degrees. Corruption in my posts speaks to an environment around us. Corrupt religions. Corrupted scriptures. Corrupt people. An environment where the natural law among animals is so barbaric and hostile. God made this corrupted environment. It pleased Him. He does what pleases Him. All this is however evidence of a good God as it is the perfect setting needed for true free will to exist. The death of Jesus on the cross just further proving it. It pleased God to bruise Jesus. Pleased God to see Jesus beaten and crucified before the foundations of the earth.

There is no such scripture. God delivers us from temptation because we are His people. God tests us. We are His people because we have chosen to hate what is evil. Temptation of sin is still all around us, but we are new creations who can resist it. We can only make mistakes of sin. No Christian can live on in sin unrepentant. Hence the environment of temptation / sin having power / devil having our ear is in our past.

Fact remains however that before we were saved, it pleased God that we have the devil / the greatest tempter of all time with us. It hence pleased God that we be in sin and from that position choose to repent and accept Jesus. 1 + 1 = 2. No additional scripture is needed just applied common sense.

Maybe just this one:

Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Without scripture to back up your assertions, I can only conclude that this all false teaching. Nuff said.

 

[KingJ]

Without scripture to back up your assertions, I can only conclude that this all false teaching. Nuff said.

Please re-read post # 90 and the post you just wrote off where I quoted Psalm 51:5.

Post # 90 = God desired corruption.
Psalm 51:5 = God desired us to be born in sin. As we all know God does what pleases Him Psalm 135:6.

Five posts now and still no rebuttal. Your reply here is a cop out. I was honestly looking forward to more from you.

 

[JesusIs4Me]

The interlinears I'm using show the 1 Cor 1:18 Greek word sOzomenois always means a rescue in progress, being saved. So the ESV is right, and according to
Philippians 2:12-13 (KJV)
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I read verse 13 which ties into Philippians 1:6 that it is Jesus that works in us as He will finish it. To work out your salvation with fear and trembling leaves little to be desired of men of will and intention to do it, but respecting the One Who is.

So getting back to 1 Corinthians 1:18 I see this definition for that Greek word below located at that site below;

KJV With Strong's Concordance

"from a primary sos (contraction for obsolete saos, "safe"); to save, i.e. deliver or protect (literally or figuratively):--heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole."

I see that as safe and thus saved.

For the Greek word for perish I find this definition;

"from apo - apo 575 and the base of oleqroV - olethros 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish."

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God....21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. KJV

1 Corinthians 1:18 The message of the cross seems foolish to those who are lost and dying. But it is God’s power to us who are being saved. …. 21 God wisely planned that the world would not know him through its own wisdom. It pleased God to use the foolish things we preach to save those who believe. NIV

It is no wonder why the Catholic Chutrch favors the NIV when it came out. As it is, I believe they applied preaching as a verb rather than a noun and so the end result is in misapplication of that. Even the NIV recognized preaching as a noun in switching out to message, but got lost in the actual message of those 2 verses of how we are saved rather than in the process of being saved.

Our being saved is a life-long commitment. There is no ticket to Heaven for once believing and being water baptized, so called "Once saved always saved", especially when a former believer stops obeying, stops working out his own responsibility to God. If a believer doesn't begin making a habit of quenching the Spirit, he keeps being saved. One's status at death of complying with the requirements of God, having remained faithful, and not apostate, determines whether the rescue process continued to the end.

The KJV is right to leave out the Greek meaning of "being", in that God's plan, if followed, has a believer "saved" every day, but on condition. We should understand that in light of what to think about (Philippians 4), contrary to what many folks choose, like movies, TV entertainment, phone games, to their hurt, and according to
2 Peter 1:1-15 (KJV)
1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
12 Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know them, and be established in the present truth.
13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;
14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

I believe many American church leaders and members are in general losing remembrance, if having learned the essentials well enough to comprehend them. I think it's best not to discourage anyone from at least beginning with a Bible version by which a reader can discover Jesus, then hopefully work out the differences in Bible versions, and perhaps begin searching an interlinear, which leaves out the added (in italics in the KJV).

You surely realize the KJV fills in many verses with words not in the base texts. Well, the ESV leaves some of those KJV italic words out, and vice versa. As English usage continues to change, size of vocabulary dropping at an alarming rate, so becomes the continued need for simplicity and amplification. I should point out there are in the works some perverted versions that will promote

The Amplified serves up an array of added words that are helpful to get a general view of a verse. I prefer the KJV simply because I have no problem with the language nuances, but carry a smart phone with many versions to be selected depending upon hearer ability. My memorized verses are all KJV. A child not exposed to any Bible will not gain much if anything from hearing the KJV, like for me when a child. It might as well be in Chinese then for all I knew back then. I could comprehend a story told in plain spoken English about Noah and Mary and Joseph. But even if a person comprehends the words, practically all hearers need commentary and testimony from me and anyone else I know who witnesses to the lost.

You have to explain to me how you can claim these verses are part of your testimony.

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. 5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. 2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

Now a vow is the biggest letter of the law and if you do that, you are required to do the whole law. A commitments is nothing short of a promise. Therefore how can you say you are free?

How can you say you have entered into that rest provided by Jesus Christ, even for following Him?

Hebrews 4:1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world...……
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

So Jesus has set me free from my commitment to make Him Lord of my life and all other bondage thus forgiving me so I can rest in Him and rely on Him all the time for the help & guidance I need for following Him as I follow Him by the same grace of God I have been saved by as it is both done by faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Bendito]

Please re-read post # 90 and the post you just wrote off where I quoted Psalm 51:5.

Post # 90 = God desired corruption.
Psalm 51:5 = God desired us to be born in sin. As we all know God does what pleases Him Psalm 135:6.

Five posts now and still no rebuttal. Your reply here is a cop out. I was honestly looking forward to more from you.

Psalm 51:5 Does not back up your assertions Basically that verse says we're sinners from conception...Not that God wants that. Its a result of the curse of sin. Which was not Gods idea btw

 

[JesusIs4Me]

Train wreck coming. Or maybe not.

 

[KingJ]

Psalm 51:5 Does not back up your assertions Basically that verse says we're sinners from conception.. .

It could not support my assertion more. It says we are sinners from conception. A conception we have no control over. It is all in God's hands.

Its a result of the curse of sin. Which was not Gods idea btw

God did not put the devil, the chiefest of liars and deceivers on earth?

.No Not that God wants that.

Psalm 135:6 God does what pleases Him.

 

[Bendito]

It could not support my assertion more. It says we are sinners from conception. A conception we have no control over. It is all in God's hands.

God did not put the devil, the chiefest of liars and deceivers on earth?

Psalm 135:6 God does what pleases Him.

;I'm sorry KJ This is religious churchiantiy nonsense

 

[Dovegiven]

Psalm 51:5 Does not back up your assertions Basically that verse says we're sinners from conception...Not that God wants that. Its a result of the curse of sin. Which was not Gods idea btw

Psalm 51:4-6 (KJV)
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

Actually that verse refers to Original Sin, the curse of Adam. Regardless of whether or how much a human born after Adam sins, he is under that curse until redeemed by Christ. It doesn't mean God put a nature in us bent on sinning. All humans are corruptable in this fallen world. I was neighbor to a California couple that home-schooled their children. Those kids were very remarkable, with no guile in them, innocent such that I hesitated to ever say a word around them, lest I corrupt them somehow. They were of very high intellect, could tell you at least something out of a set of encyclopedias. For two years we never saw or heard a single negative thing of them. I've witnessed a few times a similar condition of Jewish children. They are so pure in everything they are a bit "blinding". So, I am convinced a child can be shielded from corruption, not being born bent on sinning. Parents of such know the effect of the cultural environments. I realize some folks think that's dangerous for a child who surely must enter into full society some day supposedly unprepared. Nonsense.

While David was in the womb, God put in place a means to add wisdom to him. I also know God is not OF confusion or disorder.
1 Corinthians 14:33 (KJV)
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

The Greek puts that this way literally given in English: "not for is of turbulence but of peace.........."

He is creator of order, of "good" only, not disorder. Order is required to balance good and evil once evil enters in, evil being mostly about negatives in life, like hurricanes and earthquakes, or being burglarized. God does not send burglars to steal. The devil sends those. But earthquakes? They are part of a super rebellious creation that Adam caused to be cursed. Instead of continents remaining where God put them, they went on the move, wandering by actually natural processes that were magnified by sin of man. God's good creation was corrupted by sin, requiring a curse on His creation. A mighty curse, yet given with an eternal remedy in Christ. No animal but the serpent took part in sin, yet inherited the curse. No innocent plant deserved a curse. The innocent soil was even cursed since man touched it.

 

[KingJ]

;I'm sorry KJ This is religious churchiantiy nonsense

I agree that God is good and hates sin. God has to allow a level of corruption though to honor free will.

Grasping and explaining free will is hard. I don't feel it is a major issue if we disagree.

I would see churchianity nonsense as those churches not even trying to grasp free will and properly defend a God who defines Himself as good Psalm 136:1 and light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

I am sure if we discussed a while we would agree with each other. I think maybe we both tired.

 

[Bendito]

Psalm 51:4-6 (KJV)
4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

Actually that verse refers to Original Sin, the curse of Adam. Regardless of whether or how much a human born after Adam sins, he is under that curse until redeemed by Christ. It doesn't mean God put a nature in us bent on sinning. All humans are corruptable in this fallen world. I was neighbor to a California couple that home-schooled their children. Those kids were very remarkable, with no guile in them, innocent such that I hesitated to ever say a word around them, lest I corrupt them somehow. They were of very high intellect, could tell you at least something out of a set of encyclopedias. For two years we never saw or heard a single negative thing of them. I've witnessed a few times a similar condition of Jewish children. They are so pure in everything they are a bit "blinding". So, I am convinced a child can be shielded from corruption, not being born bent on sinning. Parents of such know the effect of the cultural environments. I realize some folks think that's dangerous for a child who surely must enter into full society some day supposedly unprepared. Nonsense.

While David was in the womb, God put in place a means to add wisdom to him. I also know God is not OF confusion or disorder.
1 Corinthians 14:33 (KJV)
33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

The Greek puts that this way literally given in English: "not for is of turbulence but of peace.........."

He is creator of order, of "good" only, not disorder. Order is required to balance good and evil once evil enters in, evil being mostly about negatives in life, like hurricanes and earthquakes, or being burglarized. God does not send burglars to steal. The devil sends those. But earthquakes? They are part of a super rebellious creation that Adam caused to be cursed. Instead of continents remaining where God put them, they went on the move, wandering by actually natural processes that were magnified by sin of man. God's good creation was corrupted by sin, requiring a curse on His creation. A mighty curse, yet given with an eternal remedy in Christ. No animal but the serpent took part in sin, yet inherited the curse. No innocent plant deserved a curse. The innocent soil was even cursed since man touched it.

This is good Thank you....And the curse is not from God, but it's a result of sin. As in cause and effect.

 

[Bendito]

I agree that God is good and hates sin. God has to allow a level of corruption though to honor free will.

Grasping and explaining free will is hard. I don't feel it is a major issue if we disagree.

I would see churchianity nonsense as those churches not even trying to grasp free will and properly defend a God who defines Himself as good Psalm 136:1 and light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5.

I am sure if we discussed a while we would agree with each other. I think maybe we both tired.

LOL Oh I tired all right...Working long and hard on my book, Satan attacking all the time.....Oh Poor me! Please wait while I have a pity party.....Ok. I'm done. We could probably come to an agreement if given time. We usually end up agreeing in most things. Lets drop this one. Agreed?