Is 'Free Will' really free will? and if not??

[Br. Bear]

He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."
Matthew 26:42

And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will.
Mark 14:36

We have quite a number of references to 'Free will' around the threads lately.

May i propose that 'free will' is merely a fleshy deception to replace and play down rebellion? [or at least, disobedience]

When God says. Repent, is that a nice suggestion or is it something more direct?
When we share the Gospel, are we offering something for the free will of the listener to ponder and do whatever they think best? Or are we stating it as it is?

There are references in Scripture to a choice being made but is/are they choices needing or instigating or validating 'free will'.

Are we saying that God is so kind and loving that He made us with 'free will', so that our representaion of Him comes across as something appetizing or non confrontational?

When God said, "this is My Beloved Son, in Whom I am well pleased, listen to Him", was He suggesting it as something everyone has free will about or was He stating the case without boundaries or place for free will to bear fruit?

When we walked according to the darkness of the world we exercised what we might call 'free will' but now as believers, ought we not be doing His will?

In the Garden, the serpent gave the notion, via temptation, to Eve that by using 'free will' she would benefit above and beyond and in place of what God had already stated.
Man was made in God's image BUT he was not God. Hearkening to God as the loving, caring and kind Father was the best any could do {and should do!!!} and we read how that serpent came with deception and added a 'choice', hence, the birth of what many call, 'free will'.

(I am not suggesting any T,U,L,I,P, Calvinist theology here - by the way)

Are we regurgitating something that sounds sweet and nice and 'loving' and considerate when we espouse the virtues of 'free will' or is there a sound Scriptural basis that we can adhere to and run with that exalts our free will and makes it justifiable and acceptable not only amongst ourselves and the world but before God, Who commands all men to repent.

Food for thought and please don't be shy to reply but do so prayerfully and in peace

I am so glad that Jesus followed God's will.... and i am sure you are, too!


Bless you all ....><>

JESUS IS LORD

 

[Dave M]

When we walked according to the darkness of the world we exercised what we might call 'free will' but now as believers, ought we not be doing His will?

this is good right here, because I know now when I was in darkness I had no free will at all (although I thought I did) !! sin controlled me, when I gave away all my rent money for sin and knew I would be on he street the next day and still did it, I am always reminded of how enslaved I was. Jesus freed me from that enslavement.

I am not sure one way or another about the 100% free will argument, I would much rather have Jesus directing my will then me, that I know and try to follow.

love ya Bear thanks for the post brother !!

 

[Butch5]

Free will is simply the ability to choose between two or more options without coercion.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Although I appreciate fully what my dear brother @Dave M says, regarding Free Will, I believe God has give this to us all.

But, I emphasise the 'But'. He didn't give Free Will as the world calls Free Will, e.g. choice between two or more items in a worldly fashion, No. He gave us Free Will to choose the Free Gift of Salvation or to remain in Sin.

It is a Free Will choice for all mankind, eternal life or eternal damnation

John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world [All souls] that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world [All souls] through Him might be saved.

18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

God gave the Free Will choice to... Sinners (Lost souls) and to those practicing Righteousness (Saved souls)

Because 'He so loved the world', He gives ALL the Free Will choice to accept Him or reject Him.

 

[KingJ]

Freedom = free will. The 'unimpeded free choice' definition is only half the truth.

A good God can only give true freedom. A wicked God gives no freedom or a lessor type of freedom. This is a logical fact. History teaches us this truth with our leaders time and time again.

We are free right now to choose to hate or love what is wicked. If we choose to hate it, we are choosing to live with God who also hates it. In heaven we keep our 'freedom'. At no point in time will God ever force us to serve Him or obey His every command.

Now those that choose to love what is wicked. God in His love / goodness makes a home and gives the wicked time and space to continue living with their choices. The wicked will have freedom in hell. God will not force them to serve Him. God will not tell them what to do or when to do it.

Life in heaven and hell will be very similar in many ways to life on earth. God is not an autocrat. He gives us all space and time to be free. He is a good God. He can only give true free will.

People make the mistake of teaching that consequences for choices are evidence of impeded freedom / free will. This is just not true.

 

[KingJ]

He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done."
Matthew 26:42

And He was saying, "Abba! Father! All things are possible for You; remove this cup from Me; yet not what I will, but what You will.
Mark 14:36

Jesus had free will to choose. The fact that we are able to read Him saying this is evidence that we could just as easily read Him saying '''take this cup''.

When God says. Repent, is that a nice suggestion or is it something more direct?

It is a proposal from God. God does not force anyone to repent. He tells us the consequences to our choices.

Are we regurgitating something that sounds sweet and nice and 'loving' and considerate when we espouse the virtues of 'free will' or is there a sound Scriptural basis that we can adhere to and run with that exalts our free will and makes it justifiable and acceptable not only amongst ourselves and the world but before God, Who commands all men to repent.

God does not command men to repent. He asks them to repent.

God has gone to so much effort to make true free will a reality. Let's be very careful to not downplay it and insult His goodness.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Freedom = free will. The 'unimpeded free choice' definition is only half the truth.

You are looking at free will from an earthly prospective then putting God into the picture. Instead up looking up and trying to think as God thinks, look down and see things from above, as God sees them.

God is in Heaven. the third Heaven, the Current Heaven, from there He looks down to His creation, the World on Earth. He sees All humans He created (we are talking bout humans at this point), some are lost, some are saved. God loves them all, but He wants all to be saved. That is what the Bible is all about brother, it is God's will none should be lost. The battle is between God and the devil, we wrestle not against flesh and blood, the battle is between principalities and powers, between good and evil.

God is Love, He wants all to be saved, which clearly states that some are lost, some could be lost forever. Jesus came to earth to aim to put things right, to point to God's Word, to point us to the Father, to correct wrong understanding, so that all could be saved. He has gone to heaven for a period, meanwhile we are His disciples, we have the job of bring people to God through Jesus.

A good God can only give true freedom. A wicked God gives no freedom or a lessor type of freedom. This is a logical fact. History teaches us this truth with our leaders time and time again.

We are free right now to choose to hate or love what is wicked. If we choose to hate it, we are choosing to live with God who also hates it. In heaven we keep our 'freedom'. At no point in time will God ever force us to serve Him or obey His every command.

The battle is sin vs God, the devil vs Jesus, wickedness vs Love, that is the prospective we are to look at Free Will from.

We are free right now to choose, sin, the world and the devil, OR to cross God and come to Him through Jesus.

We hate because the devil has his grip on us, we do wicked things because the devil has his grip on us.
Sinners are LOST souls.
SAVED souls practice righteousness, we may not get it right every time, we may be tempted and sin, but God knows our heart, we ask for forgiveness He forgives. We are practicing righteousness.

God is Love, love of sinners and saved, but He wants all to be saved.

God gives free will to choose Him or sin the world and the devil. He tells us the advantages of accepting Him, He tells us the disadvantages of belong to sin, the world and the devil, but the choice is ours, that is the free will He gives all.

Because He is a loving God, He gives us all our life, up to the last breath to repent, change, be saved, all the angels in Heaven Rejoice for one soul that is saved. That is what it is all about, free will comes from God, to give us all chance to repent. A lifetime to repent.

Now those that choose to love what is wicked. God in His love / goodness makes a home and gives the wicked time and space to continue living with their choices. The wicked will have freedom in hell. God will not force them to serve Him. God will not tell them what to do or when to do it.

Life in heaven and hell will be very similar in many ways to life on earth. God is not an autocrat. He gives us all space and time to be free. He is a good God. He can only give true free will.

People make the mistake of teaching that consequences for choices are evidence of impeded freedom / free will. This is just not true.

I do not know where you get the idea from that those in hell will have freedom. They made their choice in life, right up to the last breath, after that the lost souls, go to hades, until they are raised for judgement, the Great White Throne Judgement. Some will cry Lord, Lord, He will say away with you I do not know you. If their names are not in the Book of Life and the Lamb, they will be judged and condemned to eternity in hell. To the lake of fire and sulphur, where there will be crying and weeping and gnashing of teeth, a thirst that burns which cannot be quenched.

It is all in the scriptures. Hell will not be like here on earth, are your teeth gnashing brother, are you crying and weeping with the heat from the lake of fire? No.

Free will is the choice of accepting God or His enemy, salvation or hell. Not a worldly free will, not a worldly understanding of free will. It is a free will from a loving God, to give all chance to turn from sin, which He hates, and come to Him through Jesus and be saved. See it from above, from the heavenly, from God's point of view, looking down on the world He so loves, not from earth upwards, in a worldly point of view, influenced by sin, wickedness, influenced by the flesh.

 

[Dave M]

Because 'He so loved the world', He gives ALL the Free Will choice to accept Him or reject Him.

that is big right there

 

[A. Christian]

I understand somewhat of what Br. Bear might be trying to say. If we only exercise free will to rebel than can free will be good? If we do not rebel than it is God's will not ours. So it seems like accepting Christ involves surrendering your free will.

But that is a choice that we are all free to make. God's perfect love demands that I be given the freedom to accept or reject him. If the choice were not mine than I wouldn't really love him.

There are only 2 choices a will that is enslaved to the corruption of the flesh and death, and a will that is surrendered to God's will. But I want to point out that surrendering your will to God is not a destruction of your will but a transformation of it. Surrendering to God's will isnt about "I don't want to do this but i must because it's God's will". By surrendering to God's will your will is transformed more and more into what God's will looks like. I guarantee you that when Jesus finished praying in that garden that he had just as much desire to face what was next as the father himself.

But Surrendering to God's will isn't a one time thing. Because our will, whether enslaved or surrendered, is still our will. We have to constantly remind ourselves of the beauty of a relationship with God as well as his wisdom and goodness that satuates his will.

Or did I miss the point entirely?

 

[Br. Bear]

@Dave M
Greetings Dave,

this is good right here, because I know now when I was in darkness I had no free will at all ...
I am always reminded of how enslaved I was. Jesus freed me from that enslavement....
I would much rather have Jesus directing my will then me, that I know and try to follow.

It appears we can forget that once we were enslaved to darkness. I have yet to be convinced that slaves have any freedom at all.


My paraphrase of what you shared, Dave:
Jesus has delivered us from darkness to His glorious Light. We have been set free to serve the Lord and obey His commandments whereas before we had no such freedom to do so and were cut off, as it were, from Him, from God.
We have been quickened, made alive, where once we were dead in trespass and sin. The life we now live we live by faith, we no longer live but it is Christ Who lives in us [who believe]. We war against the flesh and the flesh wars against us but thankd be to God Who has given us the victory!


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

@Butch5
Greetings,

Free will is simply the ability to choose between two or more options without coercion.

according to who?

Thank you for your input


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

@KingJ
Greetings,

I am sorry but you lost me on some of that. I think it was the first line about unimpeded free choice which you also finished with. It's ok though. i shall try to get my head around it, if possible.

Freedom = free will. The 'unimpeded free choice' definition is only half the truth.

A good God can only give true freedom. A wicked God gives no freedom or a lessor type of freedom. This is a logical fact. History teaches us this truth with our leaders time and time again.

We are free right now to choose to hate or love what is wicked. If we choose to hate it, we are choosing to live with God who also hates it. In heaven we keep our 'freedom'. At no point in time will God ever force us to serve Him or obey His every command.

Now those that choose to love what is wicked. God in His love / goodness makes a home and gives the wicked time and space to continue living with their choices. The wicked will have freedom in hell. God will not force them to serve Him. God will not tell them what to do or when to do it.

Life in heaven and hell will be very similar in many ways to life on earth. God is not an autocrat. He gives us all space and time to be free. He is a good God. He can only give true free will.

People make the mistake of teaching that consequences for choices are evidence of impeded freedom / free will. This is just not true.

Freedom is only found and had in Christ, the shed Blood of Christ. Where we were once bound, we are now free and we call that liberty.
We are not our own gods even if that idea is a little tantalizing at times, especially if it suits our desires.
-------------------

A good God can only give true freedom

He is so good that He has made a Way for us to now.... we have been set free from bondage to live the life He pre-designed for us, to live the life we were made to live, to live in love, to live according to His good will. That is the freedom we have in Christ.

God does not command men to repent. He asks them to repent.

except when He gave us:
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 17:30

If ye love Me, keep My commandments.
John 14:15

For I came down from heaven, not to do Mine own will, but the will of Him that sent Me.
John 6:38


Bless you ....><>

 

[Brother-Paul]

that is big right there

The point in the message that I am seeing, though I welcome what others see also, is that

John 3:16-17 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

The topic of Free Will, which we are discussing together, is not the Free Will as a believer, but God's offering to us all 'God so loved the world' All. Therefore we are discussing, Free Will, God has given to 'the world' all human souls on the planet (and any in space), in other words, Free Will of sinners (lost souls), and those who practice righteousness (saved souls)

God is Love, God Loves All, as the verses above clearly point out, therefore the Free Will has to be understood, from God's prospective for all mankind. The verses above do not single out believers or unbelievers, God loves all the world, every human He created.

Blessings

 

[Brother-Paul]

@Dave M
Greetings Dave,



It appears we can forget that once we were enslaved to darkness. I have yet to be convinced that slaves have any freedom at all.


My paraphrase of what you shared, Dave:
Jesus has delivered us from darkness to His glorious Light. We have been set free to serve the Lord and obey His commandments whereas before we had no such freedom to do so and were cut off, as it were, from Him, from God.
We have been quickened, made alive, where once we were dead in trespass and sin. The life we now live we live by faith, we no longer live but it is Christ Who lives in us [who believe]. We war against the flesh and the flesh wars against us but thankd be to God Who has given us the victory!


Bless you ....><>

Greetings brother,

I agree with what you say my friend, but as just replied to Dave above, Free Will is given to believers and lost souls alike, not just believers. We should therefore, I believe, look at Free Will from God's prospective for man, lost or saved souls.

God loves us all, He sent His one and only son to die for the 'sins of the whole world' that through Him, we might be saved.

God does not want any to be lost, no, he gives us all the same Free Will choice, to come to Him through Jesus, or remain slaves to sin, the world and the devil. It is through His amazing love, that He let Jesus die for our sins, but also through His amazing love for All the world, he gives this Free Will choice to accept or reject Him, through His amazing and divine love (agape love), he also gives all rejecters, lost souls, there full life to change, that truly is Amazing Love.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Freedom = free will. The 'unimpeded free choice' definition is only half the truth.

I agree 100% with brother @Br. Bear in Post #12

Freedom is only found and had in Christ, the shed Blood of Christ.

We all have Free Will to come to God through Jesus, but we can only receive freedom, true freedom, freedom from the slavery of sin, through the shed blood of Christ on the cross.

Blessings

 

[Br. Bear]

@A. Christian
Greetings,

Or did I miss the point entirely?

Or did i [as usual] not make a very clear point?
---------------------

But that is a choice that we are all free to make

Perhaps this is the crux of the matter?
We [man] were free until sin entered.
A person in chains and locked up and controlled by his captor is not all that free. When we were dead we had how much freedom to make how many choices?
When we were blind, how could we see?
--------------------------------

But Surrendering to God's will isn't a one time thing.

or....
He who the Son sets free is free indeed
We are bought with a price [PRAISE THE LORD]

... being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
Philippians 1:6
----------------------------------------

We have to constantly remind ourselves of the beauty of a relationship with God as well as his wisdom and goodness that satuates his will.

or...
are we reminded because He has given us of His Spirit, because the Holy Ghost reminds us ever so beautifully of these things?


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

I was getting to you Brother-Paul.... wait your turn!


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

@Brother-Paul
Greetings,

But, I emphasise the 'But'. He didn't give Free Will as the world calls Free Will, e.g. choice between two or more items in a worldly fashion, No. He gave us Free Will to choose the Free Gift of Salvation or to remain in Sin.

It is a Free Will choice for all mankind, eternal life or eternal damnation

God gave the Free Will choice to... Sinners (Lost souls) and to those practicing Righteousness (Saved souls)

Because 'He so loved the world', He gives ALL the Free Will choice to accept Him or reject Him.

I would edit this to read:
He gave us a choice: the Free Gift of Salvation or to remain in Sin.
and
It is a choice for all mankind, eternal life or eternal damnation

God gave the choice to... Sinners (Lost souls) and to those practicing Righteousness (Saved souls)

Because 'He so loved the world', He gives ALL the choice to accept Him or reject Him.


[i shall look over your other posts brother and comment if i do]

God does not want any to be lost, no, he gives us all the same Free Will choice

Perhaps 'Free Will' is a cliche we use instead of forbearance ? Akin to Mercy and Grace and long-suffering and patience.




Bless you ....><>

 

[B-A-C]

If there is no free-will. Then every sin ever committed was committed because God made it happen.

This gets into "pre-destination" a little bit, as some people believe in irresistable grace. (God picks who will be saved, and who won't, the ones He picks have no choice but to be saved)
But the Bible says it's God's will that ALL men be saved. It also says He wishes for NONE to perish, but for ALL to come to the knowledge of salvation.

Rev 3:20; says Jesus knocks at the door. It says IF anyone will open the door, Jesus will come in. Jesus doesn't bust the door down.

 

[Brother-Paul]

I was getting to you Brother-Paul.... wait your turn!


Bless you ....><>

:grin: