Yes, i do tend to agree with this question. However, rather than get side tracked by something that is potentially completely off topic, it may be best to let it rest and/or pick it up in another thread?
Bless you ....><>
Is 'Free Will' really free will? and if not??
- Thread starter Br. Bear
- Start date
Yes, i do tend to agree with this question. However, rather than get side tracked by something that is potentially completely off topic, it may be best to let it rest and/or pick it up in another thread?
Bless you ....><>
Greetings B-A-C,
you quoted from Joshua 24:15.
On it's own it does read somewhat like a 'free choice' free will sort of thing but when we consider the situation amongst a nation who had as it were, 'in their veins' the law and commandment of the LORD, the very fabric of their identity, and the verses / passage leading up to this verse 15, as well as other similar accounts in Scripture, it comes much clearer as to what was actually being said.
I do appreciate your adding it, though.
In summary, the people of Israel had before them a very serious statement being made.
Looking at verse 14 we read:
Now therefore fear the LORD, and serve Him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the LORD.
Also of some importance here is that this was quite near to the last moments of Joshua's time, before his death.
Please {everyone] take the time to read chapter 23 and 24 of Joshua.
I could type or copy paste it all here but my posts can get lengthy enough as is, so i shall refrain.
What you will see is that Joshua is reminding the people of all the LORD has done for them and at the same time warning them that the LORD will not protect them if they leave to follow after false gods and idols.
Even reading on from verse 15 we can see the formidable danger that is presented to them should they cease from serving the LORD.
Rather than [as is often presented on calendars and plaques, etc] a 'free will', 'free choice' scenario, we see a dying leader, a great and faithful and loyal leader leaving his people and making sure that they are left committed to all that he spent almost his entire life in doing, and that is to remain faithful servants of the LORD. He wasn't really giving a choice, because they were at that stage already committed but he was pressing them hard to really get them ready for his death. A stone was set up as a reminder for them, in case they ever forgot, that they were a much loved and cared for people of the LORD, a landmark of remembrance of their God and His lovingkindness to them.
again, please read the two chapters to see the verse in context.
Thank you for your interaction and fellowship in this thread.
I think that much of it comes down to understanding better what we really mean by 'free will' if we use that term. On it's own it has a lot of potential disasters.
We do have brains but that does not guarantee that using them and applying free will, will cover us either way.
On top of this we also have the problem of free will only being of any real use if we have all our marbles in place and have no problems with many different factors in our physical make up.
For instance, a person who has a brain injury or even sometimes a growth like tumor, or someone who has some handicap in their brain, will not be fully able to utilize what we might call free will. So to heap all our apples into this one basket would be quite stupid.
In other words, it is not bullet proof and there are quite a few Scriptures that actually reveal to us something more that what our modern take on it all is.
I have probably said/written enough! [someone said about giving someone enough rope.... so i had better be quiet now.]
Bless you ....><>
Greetings Curtis,
glad to see you again.
Looking back to what Dave wrote earlier
we see that the sort of prisoner we were basically had no real will at all. Captives to the fullest degree, enslaved minds and hearts, if you will.
Through faith by the Blood of Christ, and the resurrection of our Lord, we receive the power to now be His servants, to do His will, for which we have been called, according to His good will, not ours.
Outside of the will of God, our 'free will' never amounts to anything eternally cherishable, [excuse the expression] and in fact, if honest, only ends us in trouble and that is usually sin trouble.
We do have brains to decide things, with all the limitations each of us experience accordingly. We have in fact so many variables in play that really making a good choice without hearing the Gospel with power, we are incapable of knowing God's will.
And with the verse you quoted, i ask that the whole chapter be read.
1And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live. 7And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee. 8And thou shalt return and obey the voice of the LORD, and do all his commandments which I command thee this day. 9And the LORD thy God will make thee plenteous in every work of thine hand, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy land, for good: for the LORD will again rejoice over thee for good, as he rejoiced over thy fathers: 10If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. 11For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
12It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
13Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
14But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it. 15See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; 16In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. 17But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. 19I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: 20That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
Deuteronomy 30
---------------
Not all that convinced that our present day understanding and use of the idea of 'free will' cuts it.
Bless you ....><>
Greetings all,
may i add another 'dimension' [food for thought] to this topic of 'free will'?
Do you suppose that the twelve, who were to become the disciples of Jesus, all got together one sunny day, gathered on a rock, and after some discussion they all used their free will and decided that they all chose to follow Jesus and even become His disciples with the plan to become His Apostles [except for Judas Iscariot] and with a good heart of intent went about to find Him and stick to their commitment which was based on their free will?
Nay!
Neither did they use free will to get Him to breathe upon them to receive the Holy Ghost much less was it their free will plan and choice to be endowed from the Spirit at that day of Pentecost.
Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.
John 15:16
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 15:19
Bless you ....><>
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:14
may i add another 'dimension' [food for thought] to this topic of 'free will'?
Do you suppose that the twelve, who were to become the disciples of Jesus, all got together one sunny day, gathered on a rock, and after some discussion they all used their free will and decided that they all chose to follow Jesus and even become His disciples with the plan to become His Apostles [except for Judas Iscariot] and with a good heart of intent went about to find Him and stick to their commitment which was based on their free will?
Nay!
Neither did they use free will to get Him to breathe upon them to receive the Holy Ghost much less was it their free will plan and choice to be endowed from the Spirit at that day of Pentecost.
Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.
John 15:16
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you.
John 15:19
Bless you ....><>
How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
Romans 10:14
Curtis
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If a man does not have free will choice to choose his actions, are we to blame God for what we have become? Is the fall of mankind the results of God's own will or from the will man?
The Apostle Paul describes what it is like to be bond in sin, and not finding a way out from under its power to do good.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:16 Now if I do what I do not want, (Paul's free will choice was to not do what he kept doing) I agree with the law, that it is good.
Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. (Paul again made a free will choice to do what was right, but sin kept him on bondage from doing it)
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, (This man's free will choice was to do good, but he kept doing evil that he did not want to do) but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
This is a perfect picture of a man in bondage yet wanting (free will choice) to be released from his capturers.
The Apostle Paul describes what it is like to be bond in sin, and not finding a way out from under its power to do good.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:16 Now if I do what I do not want, (Paul's free will choice was to not do what he kept doing) I agree with the law, that it is good.
Rom 7:17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. (Paul again made a free will choice to do what was right, but sin kept him on bondage from doing it)
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, (This man's free will choice was to do good, but he kept doing evil that he did not want to do) but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
This is a perfect picture of a man in bondage yet wanting (free will choice) to be released from his capturers.
brighthouse98
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King J said God has not commanded anyone to repent??( Acts 2:38) This is not a request.hehe Free will greatly depends upon how you wish to precieve it.( 1 Cor 7:22) The freedom we all share was bought with a very great price.( Gal 5:1) So do you have a choice to become enslaved to bondage again if you wish to? SURE!( Gal 5:13-15)
To walk in something also requires us to stay in something,hence why it is we do examine ourselves daily to make sure we are truly in the freedom of faith.( 2 Cor 13:5-8)Are we staying in that truth? You decide this for yourself. Now people can judge fruit,but if a person looks to judge you,then they sure better remember 2 things! 1.Rom 2:1-5) and 2. ( Matt 7:3-5) And if they do not I will gently point this out to them lol
To walk in something also requires us to stay in something,hence why it is we do examine ourselves daily to make sure we are truly in the freedom of faith.( 2 Cor 13:5-8)Are we staying in that truth? You decide this for yourself. Now people can judge fruit,but if a person looks to judge you,then they sure better remember 2 things! 1.Rom 2:1-5) and 2. ( Matt 7:3-5) And if they do not I will gently point this out to them lol
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There were plenty who chose to follow Christ as disciples. I think you're misunderstanding John 15:16. When Jesus said, "I have chosen you", is it your understanding that this was before their coming to Him?
Also, even if we say that they had no free will in the choosing, this passage only applies to the apostles. It has no bearing on anyone else. We can't use a passage that is directed at these men specifically and apply it to anyone else.
KingJ
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You are mixing two matters.
1. Free will / freedom
2. Life with Christ and death without.
They are unrelated.
You are not grasping any context on these two verses.
Paul says we must judge all things 1 Cor 2:15.
In Matt 7:3-5 Jesus is not speaking to Christians. There is a world of difference between a Christian and a non Christian. A Christian has the mind of Christ 1 Cor 2:16 and can judge matters righteously. Paul explains this to us in 1 Cor 6:1-9.
Rom 2:1-5 is Paul speaking to non-Christians. A Christian does not continue in mortal sins. Only mortal sins warrant a death penalty. When Paul was saved, he stopped murdering 100%, fact. If he continued murdering, well then nobody would say he was saved. We are known by our fruits.
There is another matter being touched on in this passage. Namely that only God can ''condemn'' someone. IE Deliver a fitting and fair punishment. As only God knows the depths of our hearts and minds Jer 17:9-11. Punishment / condemning someone is however a completely separate matter to judging and discerning.
brighthouse98
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I would look to reason with you King J,but ic you just did not like the correction, so ok.
Brother-Paul
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Greetings
I do not believe it to be a choice but a command with a warning.
Genesis 2:15-17 (NKJV)
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, [command]
for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die. [warning]"
If you eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you will surely die, [warning] you shall not eat. [command]
KingJ
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Brighthouse, people who want to live in sin espouse ''do not judge'' out of its context. We cannot be naive as Christians. This is end time heresy. If we teach it we certainly do not help those in mortal sin deal with their sin and start serving God properly.
Consider also 1 Cor 10:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
I consider it a blessing if others judge me. I judge myself daily in fear and trembling as you mentioned with Phil 2:12.
Prov 27:6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend; but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. 'Do not judge' are kisses from an enemy.
Also, one other issue I have on Matt 7. If you read it properly you will see that Jesus is referring to punishment only. Note verse 2, Matt 7:2 and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. The context is not judging as in discerning. It is ''judging'' as in stoning someone to death.
When people say '''do not judge me'' and quote Matt 7, their context is ''judgement of discernment''.
Then many add '''we all sin''. Matt 5:28 says thoughts of adultery are sin. No. Matt 5:32 and Matt 19:9 says only divorce if there is actual (not thoughts) adultery. Sin is sin and sin has degrees. God ordained a stoning to death for certain sins and God does not change. We should never ever be heard saying ''do not judge''. We should only say ''punishment and vengeance is God's''.
Brother-Paul
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The situation before the fall was different to after the fall, the difference after Christ Returns and all thinks are made new, restore will not be the same as now.
God gave a command, not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, it wasn't a choice it was a command and a warning.
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die
That should have been enough, but in comes the devil and he tempts Eve, who offers to Adam and he is tempted also.
But this was before the fall brother, after the fall we have verses like you quote, repent! There was nothing to repent of prior to the fall. If they had listened to the command, heeded to the warning, none of us would be in this mess, this wicked sinful world.
Everything you quote below brother is from the SIN period, after the Fall.
Surely the question then has to be, when did the choice come into play?
If God had said you must do this or that, this or die, I would agree, but He didn't say that brother. He said...
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.
There is a difference. God gave a command and a warning, not a choice.
The choice came about due to Adam and Eve listening to the devil and his message of temptation, after hearing what satan said 'surely you will not die...' Eve made a choice, Adam was tempted also, sadly their choice was a bad one, a wrong one. That is where the choice comes in, God gave a command and a warning, the devil gave then two options with his dress up story. Bang! The Fall! Sin! So God gives us a choice to come out of and be free of Sin and receive Righteousness. The choice is to be set free from sin or remain in sin and pay the price. But because God is a God of Love, a loving God, not only does He give us a choice, He gives us to our last breath on earth to repent and accept Him through Jesus.
The tribulation period is between the fall and Christ's return and making all things new, restoring Paradise, the new Heaven and the New Earth which will be sin free, curse free, and free to all who are saved. PTL
There are 3 periods
1 - Creation - sin free - with God
2 - The fall sin grows - we are separated from God - It is this period where we have the choice, repent and accept God, remain in sin, the world and the devil rejecting God
3 - Christ returns and makes all things new - sin free - with God
We didn't/won't need 'the choice' in the sin free periods, the choice is in the sin period - SIN or RIGHTEOUSNESS
John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in
the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
There is the choice we all have brother. SIN or RIGHTEOUSNESS, Condemnation or set free through Christ.
Blessings
Brother-Paul
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How many times do I have to confirm God is Love, no one is saying he isn't. I have said many times God is Love, there is no sin, no wickedness, no evil in Him. What have I just written again brother. God IS Love.
In this world there are many false god's, scripture also makes this 'very clear'. I worship, give thanks and Glorify God, Father Son and Holy Spirit, a loving God, the One True God, the One living God, the scripture I quote is from this God brother and I take scripture, all scripture, to reveal the Truth.
God is a loving father, a loving father wants the best for his children, a loving father reprimands and punishes his children, because he loves them. But some children are more wicked than others, they can be the prodigals, a loving father can do no more, they choose to go out into the world, money, sex, luxuries, drinking, and all those other things called Sin! What can the loving father do brother, nothing, wait and pray, but hearts have to change. That is what our loving God does brother.
We have cursed him, bad mouthed him, rejected him, hurt him, He still loves His children, but they have rebelled against Him.
So He gives all His children of the world the same choice...
John 3:16-21 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
Turn from sin, repent, come home, we will have a feast. Or remain in sin and you will be condemned.
We brother are to take all of God's Word, as it is written, as it is intended, we are not to try turn round what is written to what we want to believe, many religions do this, the RCC do this.
The God of our Bible, there is only one Bible, is a God of love, but his children in this world have more than tried His patience.
You do not want to accept Hell as it is written in the Bible, you say
- God is a loving God... He is
- You say there is no wickedness or sin in Him - we agree
- If we quote scripture about hell you don't like, you say we are saying God is wicked - not so brother, God has explained to us what wickedness is, we are not saying He is wicked.
- You say I have not read a word you have written - I have but cannot agree with your personal ideas, I am not going to spend time pointing out the errors in your thinking when it appears you do not read them.
Read John 3:1-21 again brother
John 3:16-17 confirms what we agree - God is Love.
God loves the world so much, He doesn't want any to perish, but many will be. So He not only explains His love for mankind, but also confirms in verses 18-21, the CONDEMNATION of those who choose to reject Him and His love. Not only that He gives us a lifetime to repent and return to Him. That shows what a loving God is really like.
You will not accept what God has said regarding those who are disobedient, you say you don't believe it God is Love. As mentioned previously, God drowned pharaoh's army, God flooded the whole world except for Noah and his family, eight souls. God wiped out Sodom and Gomorrah, Why? Because of wickedness, because of sin, because they all rejected God.
I think the tyres on the wheels of this conversation are worn out my friend.
God is Love.
Brother-Paul
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I totally agree brother.
The choice God has given us is, SIN or RIGHTEOUSNESS
The choice is ours.
It is death or life, condemnation or freedom.
It all hinges on sin and righteousness.
Curtis
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I agree, what else is there?
Brother-Paul
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Amen brother Amen
And that is why, I feel, we should be viewing 'free will', not in earthly terms but through the eyes of God, through righteousness, our free will comes from God's will for us through the Power of His Word and the Holy Spirit.
Blessings
Brother-Paul
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The choice is...
John 3:18-21 (NKJV)
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
Light or darkness, Eternal life or Eternal damnation.
Either we accept Jesus paid the price for our sins, in full. Or we choose to accept we will pay the price ourselves, in full.
The choice is ours, the choice is for every soul, for God so loved the world...
