Is 'Free Will' really free will? and if not??

[Brother-Paul]

@Brother-Paul
Greetings,

I would edit this to read:
He gave us a choice: the Free Gift of Salvation or to remain in Sin.
and
It is a choice for all mankind, eternal life or eternal damnation

God gave the choice to... Sinners (Lost souls) and to those practicing Righteousness (Saved souls)

Because 'He so loved the world', He gives ALL the choice to accept Him or reject Him.

Spot on brother

@Brother-Paul
[i shall look over your other posts brother and comment if i do]

Enjoy brother
:wink:

@Brother-Paul
Perhaps 'Free Will' is a cliche we use instead of forbearance ? Akin to Mercy and Grace and long-suffering and patience.

Bless you ....><>

Perhaps brother, but I feel we are looking at the choice of the two main parts of scripture, Righteousness OR Sin.

That is what scripture keeps comparing and guiding us about. That is what the parables are about, Heaven or sin, the world and the devil. Are we wheat or chaff, are we sheep or goats, are we weeds or have we blossomed in Christ with Christ within.

That is where I see the Free Will choice we have been given, Why? Because God loves all mankind and doesn't want any to be lost, He wants the prodigals to return, He wants sinners to repent and be saved. In His amazing love, he allows us all our life to change, to return and be changed, to be set free from sin and be adopted back into His family.

Grace, Mercy, Love and Peace are all there, they lead to faith, Hope and Love, and we know which is the greatest of these brother.

Bless you

 

[Brother-Paul]

If there is no free-will. Then every sin ever committed was committed because God made it happen.

Would it be better brother to say, He let it happen rather than made it happen?

This gets into "pre-destination" a little bit, as some people believe in irresistable grace. (God picks who will be saved, and who won't, the ones He picks have no choice but to be saved)

Ermmm I was avoiding the Names in the Book of Life at this time.

But the Bible says it's God's will that ALL men be saved. It also says He wishes for NONE to perish, but for ALL to come to the knowledge of salvation.

Amen brother, my very point, All men.

Rev 3:20; says Jesus knocks at the door. It says IF anyone will open the door, Jesus will come in. Jesus doesn't bust the door down.

It's our Free Will choice, God does not force His love on us, that would not show His Love.

The door Jesus stands at has no handle His side, He knocks, we have to open it. And Oh boy when we do the Light shines brother.

To God be the Glory, Jesus is Lord.

Amen

 

[Br. Bear]

@B-A-C
Greetings,

If there is no free-will. Then every sin ever committed was committed because God made it happen.

Going back to the Garden [number 1... as in, Eden, not Gethsemane}
I understand that sin entered at this point, yes? I think you know the rest.
Temptation 'entered' resulting in sin 'performed/committed' and accordingly all were under sin and in need of a Saviour

Rebellion against God is not really 'free will' (any more than any other crime would be considered as such [murder, rape, armed robbery, etc] )
--------------------------

This gets into "pre-destination" a little bit, as some people believe in irresistable grace. (God picks who will be saved, and who won't, the ones He picks have no choice but to be saved)
But the Bible says it's God's will that ALL men be saved. It also says He wishes for NONE to perish, but for ALL to come to the knowledge of salvation.

Definitely not interested in any "pre-destination irresistible grace" rot, thank you
----------------------------------

Rev 3:20; says Jesus knocks at the door. It says IF anyone will open the door, Jesus will come in. Jesus doesn't bust the door down.

Agreed fully, but that does not have to equate to 'free will' but it is how we are tending to word things in this day. If we refuse to answer the door.....? Excuse me, Jesus is knocking on the door and wants to let you know you have free will to choose if you really want to, to answer it and even let Him in, but never forget that you have complete free will. So you refuse to enter into that rest? Free choice suddenly lost it's appeal. Not such a good idea after all.
Or, do you think that when Jesus comes knocking on the prison doors we might perchance forget everything else including or highest [couch couch] right to exercise OUR free will..... because we want out of that stinking prison and perchance it may be that when He knocks it is not as some mystery guest you have to guess .


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Perhaps brother, but I feel we are looking at the choice of the two main parts of scripture, Righteousness OR Sin.

could this be obedience or disobedience?

To obey is better than sacrifice...

And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1Samuel 15:22

or should we use the term rebellion instead of or on top of disobedience?

1Samuel 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and presumption is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has also rejected you from being king.

Proverbs 17:11 Evil people are eager for rebellion, but they will be severely punished.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?”

1Samuel 12:14-15 Now if you fear and worship the Lord and listen to his voice, and if you do not rebel against the Lord’s commands, then both you and your king will show that you recognize the Lord as your God. But if you rebel against the Lord’s commands and refuse to listen to him, then his hand will be as heavy upon you as it was upon your ancestors.

Isaiah 1:19-20 If you will only obey me, you will have plenty to eat. But if you turn away and refuse to listen, you will be devoured by the sword of your enemies. I, the Lord, have spoken!

Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled against him and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he became their enemy and fought against them.

Hebrews 3:15 Remember what it says: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts as Israel did when they rebelled.”

2Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new. They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths.

James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21 Suppose a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such a case, the father and mother must take the son to the elders as they hold court at the town gate. The parents must say to the elders, This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and refuses to obey. He is a glutton and a drunkard. Then all the men of his town must stone him to death. In this way, you will purge this evil from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid.


however,

2 Chronicles 7:14 if My people, who are called by My name, will humble themselves and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.

PRAISE THE LORD


Bless you ....><>

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5
Greetings,



according to who?

Thank you for your input


Bless you ....><>

English dictionary.

 

[A. Christian]

@A. Christian
Greetings,



Or did i [as usual] not make a very clear point?
---------------------


Perhaps this is the crux of the matter?
We [man] were free until sin entered.
A person in chains and locked up and controlled by his captor is not all that free. When we were dead we had how much freedom to make how many choices?
When we were blind, how could we see?
--------------------------------



or....
He who the Son sets free is free indeed
We are bought with a price [PRAISE THE LORD]

... being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
Philippians 1:6
----------------------------------------



or...
are we reminded because He has given us of His Spirit, because the Holy Ghost reminds us ever so beautifully of these things?


Bless you ....><>

I do like the part about being reminded by the Holy Spirit because we definitely are.

I think the free will thing all comes down to the fact God has given us autonomy over ourselves. We have certain choices and no one can make them for us or take them away. However much death would love to enslave us it cannot without us agreeing with it and allowing us to. Humanity was firat given a chouce in the garden when God gave Adam a second option, the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam fell and sold the human race out to sin and death. One of the first things God did after laying out the consequences for hia choice was to promise the seed of woman a sacrifice to redeem us giving us another option to enslavement of death.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Perhaps 'Free Will' is a cliche we use instead of forbearance ? Akin to Mercy and Grace and long-suffering and patience.

Perhaps brother, but I feel we are looking at the choice of the two main parts of scripture, Righteousness OR Sin.

could this be obedience or disobedience?

I think it would depend on where you are looking from and who is looking don't you.

A saved soul would agree it could be, a lost soul would disagree. I feel from God's prospective it is sin or righteousness.

The lost soul, is the sinner but would not agree with that either.

The saved soul, practices righteous, may be tempted from time to time and fall for it, but forgiveness is always there as they practice righteousness.

The two extremes are sin and righteousness, darkness and light. I believe God gives us free will and the type of free will he gives is to come into the light, or remain in darkness, sin the world and the devil. The choice He gives us is based on His love for all mankind, He doesn't want any to be lost so he gives this free will choice.

A choice always has at least two options, the two options here are to become a righteous person, not perfect but practicing righteousness, or to remain a slave to sin. SinFULL or SinFREE that is the choice God has given us as a free will choice.

John 3:16-17 confirms God's Love for ALL mankind

John 3:18-21 confirms the free will choice He gives us

Because God is Love, that is why He gave this choice, a free will choice.

I do not believe free will should be viewed in worldly ways, which understandable we may tend to try do, to get God's plan of Salvation to fit worldly views. But I do believe He gives us free will in the way stated above, it is His will none will be lost, he give us the free will choice, and because He loves the world so much, He gives us all our life to repent, come to Him through Jesus and be set free, to be free indeed.

One could say, whether we sin or not is a free will choice, maybe, maybe not. We are all tempted but it doesn't mean we will fall for the lie, we only sin when we fall for the tempters lies. So I do not believe being tempted and sinning includes the free will choice we are discussing, it wasn't shall I or shall I not accept God and the free gift of salvation. We know as saved believers, the devil will tempt us to sin, we know he does so to draw us from God, we didn't choose we allowed our self to be drawn into the lie.

Free will choice fit perfectly, I feel, to John 3 as quoted above.

First we are told about God's love for all mankind

John 3:16-17 (NKJV)
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Then we are told the free will choice God has given all mankind.
The free will choice is, set free from sin or condemned because of sin.

John 3:18-21 (NKJV)
18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."

 

[Brother-Paul]

I think the free will thing all comes down to the fact God has given us autonomy over ourselves. We have certain choices and no one can make them for us or take them away. However much death would love to enslave us it cannot without us agreeing with it and allowing us to. Humanity was firat given a chouce in the garden when God gave Adam a second option, the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Adam fell and sold the human race out to sin and death. One of the first things God did after laying out the consequences for hia choice was to promise the seed of woman a sacrifice to redeem us giving us another option to enslavement of death.

Greetings

I do not believe God gave Adam a second option or choice, God gave Adam a definite instruction...

Genesis 2:15-17 (NKJV)
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Bless you

 

[Beresheet]

Not all of Gods children have free will. There is this group of Gods children who proved themselves worthy during Satan’s rebellion/overthrow. They chose to fight along side God to defeat Satan and his bunch during that rebellion. That one third that sided and fought along side of God are known as the Elect or the very Elect. They are the only ones that do not have free will. God will intercede in their life’s to use them as He needs.

Free will is simply the tool God uses to have man express his true heart. His most deepest ingrained beliefs of himself. What his true nature is at a given point in life. Through free will, one could be very evil but later down the road come into the light of Gods truth and become righteous.

I know that everyone has heard that ole saying, give him enough rope and he will hang Himself. That is how God uses the tool of free will. Give man the freedom to express their true self and by doing so you learn the true heart of that person. Free will is more than just having the opportunity to choose good over evil. It’s God way of seeing into man’s true thoughts or beliefs. Actions will always tell one true heart/mind.

A wise person, at first, will acquaint themselves with another person through their actions and not as much as what that person may say. And it’s true, actions talk louder than words. One may profess a thing but their action profess something different. The actions of any person will show forth the true thoughts of that person in the long run. One can be very good at hiding a undesirable trait but in time their actions will reveal what they where hiding.

God uses the tool of free will for the sole purpose of finding out one’s true heart/mind. Many think that God already knows who will overcome and who will fail to overcome. Not so, He probably has a very good idea who will make it and who won’t. But when free will is in play, the bottom line, it’s up to the individual which way they may go.

The same thing can be said about true love. God can not create the essence of true love in an individual, true love, to be real, must well up from within each individual on its own free will. They must desire to love cause they truly want to, that is their true nature embedded in their souls. It’s for real and not make believe. That’s the kind of true love God desires. A child that desires to love God cause they want to, not cause they are being forced to so called love him. Forced love is fake love.

Fake love is like fake news. Neither will stand before God. Free will exposes one’s true heart/mind.

 

[A. Christian]

Not all of Gods children have free will. There is this group of Gods children who proved themselves worthy during Satan’s rebellion/overthrow. They chose to fight along side God to defeat Satan and his bunch during that rebellion. That one third that sided and fought along side of God are known as the Elect or the very Elect. They are the only ones that do not have free will. God will intercede in their life’s to use them as He needs.

Where do you get this from?

 

[Brother-Paul]

Not all of Gods children have free will. There is this group of Gods children who proved themselves worthy during Satan’s rebellion/overthrow. They chose to fight along side God to defeat Satan and his bunch during that rebellion. That one third that sided and fought along side of God are known as the Elect or the very Elect. They are the only ones that do not have free will. God will intercede in their life’s to use them as He needs.

I feel brother that it all depends how we view the Free Will Gift God has given us to His Glory, and at what stage He has given it. If as stated in a previous post, the Free Will Gift, God has given us, is the choice between accepting Him or rejecting Him, as I believe it is, then these people, these souls had their Free Will God give them when they initially repented and came to God through Jesus. The fact they are the Elect, is they are righteous, like all saved souls are righteous, only they stand out as Elite for what they do for God in those terrible times.

We are all born into sin, we all have the Free Will God gives us, to accept Him, or to remain in sin, the world and the devil.

Scripture was quoted previously to confirm this. The choice, Free Will choice, is explained in the Gospel, John 3:18-21, following the need to be born again, and the explanation of God's Love for All the world, all mankind.

Blessings

 

[Brother-Paul]

Free will is simply the tool God uses to have man express his true heart. His most deepest ingrained beliefs of himself. What his true nature is at a given point in life. Through free will, one could be very evil but later down the road come into the light of Gods truth and become righteous.

I totally agree brother.

We are born into sin, but at some point in our life we repent and accept God. At that point we have accepted the Free Will God has given us. It is a choice. We are sinners, belonging to sin, the world or the devil, but God has given us a Free Will Gift to choose him or sin. To remain sinners or become righteous, to practice sinning or to practice righteousness.

The amazing thing is, not that God has given us this wonderful choice, but He has given us all our life to repent and turn from sin.

Amazing Love brother, Amazing Love.

 

[A. Christian]

Greetings

I do not believe God gave Adam a second option or choice, God gave Adam a definite instruction...

Genesis 2:15-17 (NKJV)
15 Then the LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it.
16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Bless you

But that is a choice. Just one with serious consequences.

 

[B-A-C]

I do not believe God gave Adam a second option or choice, God gave Adam a definite instruction...

From that perspective... He doesn't give any of us a choice.

Matt 4:17; From that time Jesus began to preach and say, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
Matt 11:20; Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.
Mark 1:15; and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
Mark 6:12; They went out and preached that men should repent.
Luke 13:3; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5; "I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish."

Some argue that being told you must "do this" or die isn't really a choice. But it is.

In fact during the tribulation, the beast is going to give everyone (Christians also) the same choice.

Rev 20:4; Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Rev 13:17; and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

If you don't the mark... you will literally loose your head. Also if you don't take the mark, you can't buy or sell anything. It seems this includes basic necessities... food, clothing, shelter. Probably even chocolate and tacos.

Satan also says.... "do this" or die. Not much of a choice, but you still have to make it.

Josh 24:15; "If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

 

[spiriteddove05]

Free will is when God doesn't intercede the choices we make. God gives us choices within the choices he's given us!!

 

[Curtis]

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Even a prisoner or slave has the right to want freedom if asked to choose!

 

[KingJ]

I do not know where you get the idea from that those in hell will have freedom. They made their choice in life, right up to the last breath, after that the lost souls, go to hades, until they are raised for judgement, the Great White Throne Judgement. Some will cry Lord, Lord, He will say away with you I do not know you. If their names are not in the Book of Life and the Lamb, they will be judged and condemned to eternity in hell. To the lake of fire and sulphur, where there will be crying and weeping and gnashing of teeth, a thirst that burns which cannot be quenched.

This is just terrible Brother Paul. I feel you have not read a single post from me in the 'what to expect in hell' thread.

Seriously? You believe this?

For the millionth time. People in hell only weep and gnash their teeth because they look up and see that they are cast out Luke 13:28.

The ''pain'' of hell will be in proportion to actual sins committed Rom 2:6 God will repay each according to what they have done.

It is all in the scriptures. Hell will not be like here on earth, are your teeth gnashing brother, are you crying and weeping with the heat from the lake of fire? No.

Well earth just may be a bit worse. I don't see the need for an ebola virus or a plague on those that are in hell. Yes, Paul, I have wept and gnashed my teeth before.

Did you just say people weep and gnash their teeth because of heat? There is no scripture that says weeping and gnashing teeth is from the pain of actual fire.

Free will is the choice of accepting God or His enemy, salvation or hell. Not a worldly free will, not a worldly understanding of free will. It is a free will from a loving God, to give all chance to turn from sin, which He hates, and come to Him through Jesus and be saved. See it from above, from the heavenly, from God's point of view, looking down on the world He so loves, not from earth upwards, in a worldly point of view, influenced by sin, wickedness, influenced by the flesh.

What in the universe is '''worldly'' about our understanding of freedom? Freedom is freedom. Dictator is dictator. A control freak is a control freak.

At no time and in no universe will God ever be a wicked dictator or a control freak that over rides anyone's free will.

You and some others just have a really messed up idea of our God. I wonder some times if we even reading the same bible.

Do you know that God is love. You quote so many scriptures about love. But I just don't think you '''get it'''. God IS love. He is nothing else. Whatever else there is exists as an offshoot of love / Him being who He is . We can read all scripture that appears '''terrible'' in light of who He is.

Example: If Mother Theresa got hold of a guy who raped her 'sister'. We hear that she retains him for ten days of torment. What can we expect? I would expect, prison. Well fed. Able to make calls and walk around prison as he pleases. Monitored only to ensure he does not hurt himself and others.

I expect the same and better from a God who tells us that He is righteous in ALL His ways Psalm 145:17.

Consider also how God described earth to Adam and Eve. Terror of child birth. Terror of toiling the soil. Terror of excommunication and death. No mention of Dunkin doughnuts. Mcdonalds. Pain killers. Freedom in death.

I am so tired of you guys just not grasping how good God is.

 

[KingJ]

Freedom is only found and had in Christ, the shed Blood of Christ. Where we were once bound, we are now free and we call that liberty.

Salvation from death to eternal life with God, is found in Christ.

Freedom is a separate matter. The gift of a good God to His intelligent creation. A good God can only give free will / freedom.

We are not our own gods even if that idea is a little tantalizing at times, especially if it suits our desires.

We don't need to be a god to be worthy of free will. We just need a good God. God is good. Let's give thanks! Psalm 136:1 Give thanks because God is good. I always like underlining the ''because'' in that sentence. It is an important fact that. He could be wicked. He chooses to not be wicked. That is why David is ''pro-active'' in stating this. It is not a ''given'' for many I guess. Many assume the worst of God. A Christian should know God and give thanks. Correctly teach others of who He is and not who we assume He is. A mix of good and evil. A good God who ''cough cough'' does not give true free will.

He is so good that He has made a Way for us to now.... we have been set free from bondage to live the life He pre-designed for us, to live the life we were made to live, to live in love, to live according to His good will. That is the freedom we have in Christ.

Just to be clear. There is no ''Calvinistic'' calling. God is light with no darkness in Him at all 1 John 1:5. God laying His life down for us on the cross is the greatest act of love that can be shown John 15:13. This however is not where His love and goodness ends or begins. He is good and loving all the time. Righteous in all His ways, all the time.

except when He gave us:
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Acts 17:30

If ye love Me, keep My commandments.
John 14:15

Are you using the ''God commands'' as evidence of no free will? God ''commands'' what exactly'?

His commandments are ''do not hurt others''. Is that truly evidence of an autocratic leader? No! Not at all! It is simply a call to be good.

A real warning is given with hell. A time is coming where those who do not obey His ''commands / want to hate what is wicked Rom 12:9, James 4:8, James 1:27'' will be eternally separated from those that do. IE Good people will be separated from wicked people. Not people A who prayed five times a day, did not eat pork and prayed facing a statue in some apparently holy town, will be saved from hell fire, unlike those unlucky people B who were in the wrong religion....and as a result did not ''obey His commands''.

 

[Br. Bear]

 

[KingJ]

I will follow God's commands as they are not unreasonable. They do not impact free will. They are for treating others as ourselves and respecting our Creator.

But to imply we must '''follow commands'' without properly explaining them. While what if god was wicked. Would you follow his commands? What if our leader was a David Koresh, would you follow his commands?

We are God's sheep because He has proven Himself to be a good and loving God. We are not ''anyones'' sheep. Prov 10:8 speaks only to God's commands.