Is 'Free Will' really free will? and if not??

[Sue D.]

The birth of Jesus -- as in Matt 1:18 "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother, Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit. vs 20 But while he thought about these things, behold, an angle of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, Joseph , son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your ife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

And in Luke 1: 34 and 35 "Then Mary said to the angel, How can this be, since I do not know a man?" And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God."

Both Mary and Joseph were of the line / lineage of David. And that was also predicted / prophesied.

And, you're right -- Jesus Christ was both a flesh man And the Son of God. -- but He was Also tempted in all ways like we are But Did Not Sin.

I'm not intending to say those things were a lie. Sometimes it's not easy to convey 'truth's' in written form. I know what I Do believe but trying to explain it on paper isn't always effective. And lots of beliefs are a combination of lots of Scripture And some concepts are not easily explained.

And, I'm sure that other posters can do a better job in some areas.

What Scripture do you feel that I'm twisting? It's not on purpose.

 

[Samson2020]

Many years ago the Lord would wake me up in the middle of the night, I knew to look at the clock to see the time and he would have one word for me to signify which book of the Bible to look at, and the time would correlate to chapter and verse.
One night I was woken at 3:33 and the spoken word was Jeremiah. I did not move as I was very tired and had to go to work in just a few hours. As I lay there I pleaded with the Lord to let me look at this when I woke up to start the day, all the while never uttering a word nor moving. Within I would say 10 seconds my wife who was asleep next to me in a king size bed maybe a foot and a half away from me and facing away from me said. "YOUR NOT DOING WHAT I TOLD YOU TO DO." Stirred just a second then resettled in her sleep from which she never awoke. He GOD MY FATHER used her vocal cords to scold me. Obviously I got up. Upon opening the bible to Jeremiah 3:33 i found nothing because it stops at 3:25, so I moved to 33:3 and there it was. "Call unto me and I will answer thee, and SHOW THEE GREAT AND MIGHTY THINGS THAT THOU KNOWEST NOT." I called unto him, and for a steady 2 years plus I was put through Holy Ghost school and l was taught things that without that guidance i would never know. I had received special attention, but as such a receiver every time I tried to share what was taught I found myself cast out from among those who claimed to be my brothers and sisters, Pentecostals, Baptists, Church of Christ, didn't matter, hit the door before we tar and feather you. But you see the teaching by the Lord is much greater than the teaching of man and it separates one from false Christianity with its false doctrines and flat out lies and leaves one to look at everything from a different perspective. HIS.
I think you would agree that a child be they quite intelligent but in say the first grade could not understand high school calculus, and this is where we will all find ourselves at times, being both the first grader and the high school calculus student. As GOD sees fit to increase our understanding we grow to a predetermined level, stop for awhile then continue to mature on his time line. What I may say may not be what you are prepared to hear yet and that is OK but at least the seed has been planted or at least watered and GOD will give the increase in his own time. May the Lord bless you and mature you for the time is somewhat short.

 

[Sue D.]

Thank you for sharing that with me.

Yes, that Is a wonderful verse. And, yes, we Are to be growing in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ -- and, yes, the Holy Spirit is our ultimate teacher.

One thing that I'm curious about -- what group of people were you meeting with to share what you were learning during those two specific years. and now for that matter.

 

[Samson2020]

Pentecostals, Baptists, Church of Christ members of all 3. Some the preachers themselves, some just Sunday school teachers, some youth ministers etc...
I was given 2 verses by the LORD prior to a small gathering of just 4 of us including the main pastor at a Baptist "church" , I could not fit those verses into my life in any way shape or form as they made no sense for me at the time. Well while waiting on the pastor to show up the other 2 "church" members were discussing financial and "church" bus issues that were in need of resolution. As I listened to their conversation it became quite apparent that those verses he gave me were for them as answers to their problems. Well when I shared that info with them I was told by one of them "I don't understand why the pastor allows you in this building." Needless to say they were not really rejecting me they were rejecting his instruction. That was my last visit there.
So about an hour later I was at the Pentecostal "church" and as the pastor there was preaching away he got off subject and turned fiery red and got into a sincere dissertation about how GOD can choose whom he wants to be a prophet as he sees fit and used the example of the two israelites whom God had prophesying to the israelites, during the 40 year journey in the wilderness, whom the people told to shut up, stop talking, who did they think they were etc..., ending his dissertation with it is not up to the people to choose whom the prophet will be but up to GOD only. Then he stops and takes a breath and says I'm sorry I seemed to have got off track for a moment and I'm not really sure where that came from. I then raised my hand to get his attention and simply said " That was for me Joey." The lord was telling me through him that all was well and his choices stand no matter if others accept them or not.

Then months later in that same "church" of the Pentecostals the pastors father showed me to the door and asked me to never come back. Shortly thereafter the doors were shut and nobody was there. Some time passed and a new pastor showed up and I was directed to go there, I wasn't excited about this but while sitting in a pew and listening to the sermon they read 1 Timothy 4 and when they got to verse 9 and 10 I knew why I was there. 9-11 states "This a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. For therefore we both labor and SUFFER REPROACH; because we trust in the living GOD who is the SAVIOR OF ALL MEN, specially of those that believe. These things command and TEACH." Well i ask him to read 10 again, he did, I asked him to read it again, he did then asked me whats your point? I said it's in black and white right there that GOD is the SAVIOR OF ALL MEN. Well that got me tossed because of their belief in self righteousness. You see the verse states explicitly that God IS the Savior of ALL MEN. Therefore he would have to eventually save ALL men for that to be a true verse and not a lie, and as God cannot lie either he already did it (through the sacrifice of Jesus unto himself) or Paul lied. And to take it a step further Paul states "SPECIALLY OF THOSE THAT BELIEVE". Paul had knowledge he could not share because the people in general couldn't handle it
and he knew that some issues were put in their way for them to overcome so that they could be rewarded by the Lord with say "hidden manna", or a "white stone with a new name on it" etc... but the point I tried to make here is that Jesus Christ died for ALL the sin of the world. And as such no sin could be imputed to any man from the beginning of man to the end of fleshly man; therefore all had to be eventually brought to the point of salvation. Acceptance of this would be gladly received once the truth was revealed to all. But a mans acceptance of this is not necessary as Paul was pointing out, it was a done deal and as a believer he knew but only because he understood the LOVE OF GOD for mankind and the reason why we are all here. I would reference Romans 5:17 as a second testimony to this.
After that episode the "church" shut down again. I had nothing to do with that part as I only visited that day and was not very happy to go at first.
Since that time I study mainly similar to Paul alone with the Lord as he calls, and now and again I will get a Jehova's witness come out but that usually ends with them leaving disgruntled because they can't answer anything. But I know it puts a question on their heart and someday they will search out the truth instead of taking what someone says for granted that that is the truth.
JESUS said " IF YOU continue in my word then YOU shall know the truth and the truth shall set YOU free." Freedom is knowing that it truly is "FINISHED"
that is the atonement for salvation of ALL men, but yet GOD chooses what order each man will come and the timing of that.

And now and then with those of you here. After all iron sharpens iron and we could all use a bit of sharpening once in a while!!

 

[Samson2020]

To be clear I do not claim to be anything but a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ. If he asks me to operate in the office of a prophet or apostle or simply teacher then that is what I am for the period of time it takes to complete that task. Otherwise just a brother same as any other born again follower.

 

[PloughBoy]

I told you about that road to Emmaus. I know exactly what you are talking about and Sue! I have cried a many of tears, because it seems like God would have me study and read so much, and others you could tell haven’t study anything. Leaders in the institutional church. Things would be clear, right there in the “Holy Scripture “. Enough of that. Every now and then you will run into another “Pilgrim” . To let you know you ain’t crazy

 

[Curtis]

For Jesus to become a "faithful" high priest for us before his Father he had to become a man and "suffer" (experience) the exact same things we go through every day!
This is what it means he (Jesus) became perfect, not perfect in the sense that he was not already perfect, but he became a perfect high priest because he learned what it meant to be human and experience what we experience!

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Heb 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
Heb 2:18 For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

All Christians were given the same ministry.

2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

 

[Curtis]

Consider this Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one (Adam and original sin) judgement came upon ALL men to condemnation (GODS JUDGEMENT OR CHOICE); even so by the righteousness of one (Jesus Christ) THE FREE GIFT came upon ALL MEN

The free gift came upon ALL men, but not ALL men have accepted that free gift. Condemnation is not a free gift to all men as we had no choice.

 

[Samson2020]

So you would say that God would condemn ALL men based on original sin, but then sacrifice his only begotten SON for the sin of the world and not justify the same ALL men? Tell me friend which carries more weight, original sin or the sacrifice of the son? Read that a few times more and you'll see that the sacrifice justifies ALL and has no limitations as to the amount of sin that a man does.

 

[Sue D.]

@Samson2020 -- yes, it Is true that God Would that All would come to salvation. But, He Also knows that not everyone will come. A Lot of people Won't. And, yes,. God Has provided salvation for all men -- but that doesn't mean that all will be saved. And no one is lying about anything - there are simply a lot of people who Won't believe -- and ya can't Force salvation down a person's throat.

Okay -- so some of the people in the group were discussing church related subjects -- that's pretty normal.

I'm curious -- do you remember what those verses were that you shared with the people to help them with their problems? Kind of surprised at their reactions. People in Bible studies don't generally respond back like that. So That was the Baptist group.

And then your experience with the Pentecostal church. Some really small congregations can't afford To stay open. That's what happened with one small church some years ago -- their pastor had to resign , so they merged in with Our church.

And, yes, we Do have the love of God. And we also have the gift of God to accept. A gift is made Available -- but for it to be any good, it Had to be accepted.

Your bio doesn't say where you are located. But I strongly suggest that you meet with a group of other believers. Not to be preaching At them. But to be getting to know them and share With them.

Over the years, I've been mainly in Baptist churches. There was an opportunity Many years ago to attend a Pentecostal church because it was very close by. At that time my husband worked weekends and we had four small children. We could walk across the field to the church. We went to three different services. Sunday morning, Wedn evening and Sunday night. I wasn't impressed at all. I found that there's a difference between the Holy Spirit moving amongst people through the preaching of His Word AND the pastor 'generating' emotion through his preaching.

For me, personally, I do not care for the more modern 'Praise and Worship" song services -- I Do prefer singing out of a hymnal. The church with the P/W does not have Wedn or Sunday evening Bible study. Lots of young people activities. And young people's Bible study times. The other church is much smaller and has the hymnal singing. For Bible study -- pastor is very informal and goes through Books small sections at a time. Verse by verse It's very good.

 

[Curtis]

So you would say that God would condemn ALL men based on original sin, but then sacrifice his only begotten SON for the sin of the world and not justify the same ALL men? Tell me friend which carries more weight, original sin or the sacrifice of the son? Read that a few times more and you'll see that the sacrifice justifies ALL and has no limitations as to the amount of sin that a man does.

Where ever sin abounds, grace does much more abound. (Romans 5:20) All men are born dead in sin, but the sacrifice of Jesus is more than enough to cover all sin. All men will not be saved (but all men could be saved) only those who choose to be saved will be.

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

 

[Sue D.]

So you would say that God would condemn ALL men based on original sin, but then sacrifice his only begotten SON for the sin of the world and not justify the same ALL men? Tell me friend which carries more weight, original sin or the sacrifice of the son? Read that a few times more and you'll see that the sacrifice justifies ALL and has no limitations as to the amount of sin that a man does.

Adam and Eve sinned -- obeyed satan's lie rather than believing God's Word. He Then provided for their redemption through the blood shed by Jesus Christ on the cross. The gift of salvation Is made available to all -- but it must be accepted by the individual. And Then God can see 'us' as justified by the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[PloughBoy]

Here we go, People Dead in sin cannot come to God or Jesus, they do not have the ability to come or hear His voice, only the Elect of God hears His voice, Why, because God the Father gives them “Ability” to hear and to Come , it is called the Gift of Eternal Life. It Quickens, and maketh alive. “No one Can [has the ability] to come to Me unless the Father, who sent Me Draws him”. “Lot, we are going to have to grab you and take you out of this city, because we cannot destroy it , not until we have delivered you and yours safely”. my paraphrase. And when the last stone has been laid I believe a Trumpet will sound, in a moment a twinkling of an eye.....ff

 

[Curtis]

Here we go, People Dead in sin cannot come to God or Jesus, they do not have the ability to come or hear His voice, only the Elect of God hears His voice, Why, because God the Father gives them “Ability” to hear and to Come , it is called the Gift of Eternal Life. It Quickens, and maketh alive. “No one Can [has the ability] to come to Me unless the Father, who sent Me Draws him”. “Lot, we are going to have to grab you and take you out of this city, because we cannot destroy it , not until we have delivered you and yours safely”. my paraphrase. And when the last stone has been laid I believe a Trumpet will sound, in a moment a twinkling of an eye.....ff

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to ALL men,

How can anyone choose life or death if the Lord God did not give them the ability to choose?

Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live,

 

[Sue D.]

Only God knows who the elect are - - we do not have that information -- The Holy Spirit draws a person to Christ. We 'hear' God's Word - Gospel unto salvation and respond individually by accepting or rejecting.

No one 'gets the gift of eternal life' until they accept Jesus Christ as their personal Savior.

 

[Curtis]

Once a person makes the "choice" for life over death God opens their ears of their spirit to hear the voice of Jesus, and the voice of the Holy Spirit that gives them the required faith to access grace by which one is saved!

Joh 7:17 If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

 

[Sue D.]

No one can make any choice until the Holy Spirit works in their heart.

 

[PloughBoy]

Well, I do believe Deut. 30:19 was speaking to Israel and not to the surrounding nation neither to the New Testament saints. [2nd giving of the law]. To Israel. Now Romans 5:18 speaks of life for all men as well, but when you continue reading the paragraph by keeping in context and keeping in mind, we are reading translations, conveying a thought. Now remove the verse numbers then pay close attention to verse 19 and especially to the word “many”

 

[Curtis]

No one can make any choice until the Holy Spirit works in their heart.

This is why....

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Only the Holy Spirit could do this.

 

[Curtis]

Well, I do believe Deut. 30:19 was speaking to Israel and not to the surrounding nation neither to the New Testament saints. [2nd giving of the law]. To Israel. Now Romans 5:18 speaks of life for all men as well, but when you continue reading the paragraph by keeping in context and keeping in mind, we are reading translations, conveying a thought. Now remove the verse numbers then pay close attention to verse 19 and especially to the word “many”

This was written to the descendants of Abraham, and his seed. (Deut 30:20)

Rom 4:16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.