Is homosexuality a result of imperfection?

[gismapper]

i agree with those who say it's wrong - but then again it's not something i personally have to wrestle with, thank God.

there's a lot of pressure in the uk to regard it as normal - i went to an evening class the other week and some guy kept talking about his "husband".

i wanted to give him a good shake and say "get a grip on reality!"

Hey stephon, allow me to translate what these people are saying: "I feel so empty and 'different' from everyone else's, and I've been treated like a freak and rejected by so many, all I want is some acceptance. And if you won't give it to me, I'll mobilize all who are like me to pass laws that will *force* you to accept me. Maybe then I'll start to feel 'normal' inside."

The shame is that it just won't work. Deep inside, they are left with a profound sense of emptiness and a longing for affirmation. But the Bible says that "In Him (Jesus) you are complete and He is the head over all rule and authority." I didn't begin to feel acceptance until I dealt with my deep sense of emptiness, forgiving those who hurt me, and pressing in with Jesus to find out who He made me to be. It has to be acquired from the inside out, not the outside in. And only God can do it. We have to run out lives as men or women according to the manual God gave us.

I still deal with profound emptiness from time to time, but I'm finding that Jesus is meeting that need for acceptance and affirmation and He's teaching me how to be the man He made me to be. And I am being loved and supported by the church, which is, in part, what He made the church for...to build itself up in love.

But to pound this into someone who rejects Jesus is pretty much a waste of time. The pain inside them is so controlling. Telling someone in that position to give up their quest for acceptance sounds like the height of stupidity to them. I'm not justifying their actions or beliefs, only trying to provide insight. It's just as wrong as feeling like you have to "medicate" pain by drinking alcohol all the time. There's an underlying condition of sin and darkness that drives them. I guess that's all that lost people can do. They act lost because they are lost.

pray for the guy. If you can find out about his upbringing without sounding like you're trying to set him up for something, I think you would gain some good insights into what drives him. I'm betting that he never had any acceptance from his dad or male peers. And even if he did, there is some underlying sense of inadequacy that keeps him from seeing himself as a "real man". I know I always looked at other boys doing "boy things" and felt like I couldn't compete. I don't know where that lack of confidence comes from...some of it is personality, some of it is a result of being rejected by my dad, brother, and male peers. And some of it is just a result of my sinful condition.

 

[stephon]

overcoming

have you successfully overcome this condition now?

i hope so.

with God's help, all things are possible.

apparently there's a "gay bible` on the market which strikes me as somewhat sacriligious.

the Pope's been speaking on this topic :
---

...Pope Benedict XVI told Vatican diplomats from 179 countries that same-sex marriage threatens "human dignity” in his annual "State of the World” address delivered on Jan. 9, 2012.

"Education needs settings. Among these, pride of place goes to the family, based on the marriage of a man and a woman...

 

[gismapper]

have you successfully overcome this condition now?

i hope so.

with God's help, all things are possible.

Thanks so much for asking and thanks for the encouragement! I can't say that all temptation and thoughts are completely gone, but those measurements don't tell the whole story. The goal isn't to go from "gay rags to straight riches" as someone once put it. The goal is to become more like Jesus, and to do the work that God has called me to do. Am I healed enough to do that? Absolutely! When I was mired in it, I was so consumed with my own pain and the pursuit of what I thought would make me feel better, that I was not capable of being the husband and father and servant of God that He wanted me to be. Not that marriage and kids is for everyone, but I knew that was God's will for me.

As I run to Him with my pain, selfishness, and temptation, He provides me with what I need to carry on. The sinful thoughts that come to my mind these days are easier to fight because I've opened my life to God and to some godly men who stand with me, even if they don't understand what I'm going through. So the thoughts don't progress to the point where I feel that the only thing that will make me feel better is to act out with another man. I deal with the things that drive me at a much lower level now. I am overcoming through Christ. Just please pray for me if you think of me. Thanks!

Some may say that Im fooling myself unless I'm 100% changed. Many have put the idea out there that "reorientation" is dangerous and should be illegal for therapists. All I can say is that I'm immeasurably happier, living as the man God made me to be, than I ever could be if I continued trying to fill my emptiness by stealing other men's masculinity. There will always be disappointments and setbacks along the way, but learning to persevere through them is part of what God wants from all men, regardless of what we wrestle with. Success and failure can't be measured as a snapshot in time, they must be measured by how one is progressing and growing into the image of Christ.

As for the "gay Bible", nothing has really changed over the centuries. People will continue to make a god for themselves who acts and thinks remarkably like themselves. The God of the Bible is different because He is above all things. His ways are higher and He insists on nothing less. We can only reach Him through the substitutionary death of Jesus as our sacrifice in our place. If people aren't willing to humble themselves to Him and ask for forgiveness (which is so freely given), then they will do what comes naturally: make a god for themselves that fits their own low standard. Hopefully we can love them and show them that there's a better way...a way that really takes away our sin and failure instead of just making a way to learn to live with it.

I guess the Pope has a point, but humans have been working at eroding dignity for a long time and in many, many ways. Good for him, for speaking against the tide of popular opinion, in favor of God's Word. May God grant us a true, deep revival!

 

[Fraction]

"I feel so empty and 'different' from everyone else's, and I've been treated like a freak and rejected by so many, all I want is some acceptance. And if you won't give it to me, I'll mobilize all who are like me to pass laws that will *force* you to accept me. Maybe then I'll start to feel 'normal' inside."

It would be obscene to try to analyze the thoughts of every single homosexual in the entire world. It would actually be obscene to even do it to a single homosexual person that you do not know personally or on a great personal level. Gay rights are more about them feeling left out, it's more about them being persecuted and treated unfairly.

People will continue to make a god for themselves who acts and thinks remarkably like themselves.

Almost everyone does this anyway. Everyone interprets at least one thing in the bible differently from another person. We are all different and have different beliefs, even if we are brothers or sisters in Christ.

 

[gismapper]

It would be obscene to try to analyze the thoughts of every single homosexual in the entire world. It would actually be obscene to even do it to a single homosexual person that you do not know personally or on a great personal level. Gay rights are more about them feeling left out, it's more about them being persecuted and treated

It's actually not obscene. There is a definite pathology involved, insofar as God has created the male and female bodies, and has given us male and female roles, corresponding to our male and female physiology. Trying to function outside of one's God-given gender always happens for a reason. There may be different circumstances for different individuals, but even across cultures, homosexuality develops as a result of a failure to internalize one's gender, because of a combination of personality, lack of affirmation, and various forms of abuse.

Secular psychologists will reject this idea, but they have no standard that says homosexuality is wrong, so they have no reason to look into its causes or solution. But when God says its wrong, His followers have a responsibility to deal with the subject and to find ways to truly help those who are struggling. To that end, there are many Christian counselors and organizations that have taken it upon themselves to understand how the condition develops and how to help those who find themselves in this condition. There has been much research on it and the general trends have come to light. I would refer you to Exodous International (an umbrella organization) for literature and the reasearch behind my claim. I can name several good, specific sources if you'd like.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia! Sorry can't help, but praise His Holy Name as I read your testimony!
YBIC
C4E

 

[gismapper]

Alleluia, Alleluia, Alleluia! Sorry can't help, but praise His Holy Name as I read your testimony!
YBIC
C4E

But you just did help, C4E! Just knowing that you would help if you could, helps. Honestly, every scrap of encouragement and every prayer is a gift from God. Bless His Name indeed! His grace is unthinkable.
Glad to be your brother!

 

[Fraction]

It's actually not obscene. There is a definite pathology involved, insofar as God has created the male and female bodies, and has given us male and female roles, corresponding to our male and female physiology. Trying to function outside of one's God-given gender always happens for a reason. There may be different circumstances for different individuals, but even across cultures, homosexuality develops as a result of a failure to internalize one's gender, because of a combination of personality, lack of affirmation, and various forms of abuse.

Secular psychologists will reject this idea, but they have no standard that says homosexuality is wrong, so they have no reason to look into its causes or solution. But when God says its wrong, His followers have a responsibility to deal with the subject and to find ways to truly help those who are struggling. To that end, there are many Christian counselors and organizations that have taken it upon themselves to understand how the condition develops and how to help those who find themselves in this condition. There has been much research on it and the general trends have come to light. I would refer you to Exodous International (an umbrella organization) for literature and the reasearch behind my claim. I can name several good, specific sources if you'd like.

I agree with you actually, but I don't blame it all on the psychological. Unbiased research also declares that chemical imbalances play a role in homosexuality as well. This is a concept that we are afraid of because it is used against us in arguments. However, there is still a choice whether to give in or not regardless of psychological affairs or chemical imbalances. There are just more factors to go by than the ones mentioned is all I am trying to say. I do want to thank you for explaining further and offering resources, I wouldn't mind looking in to them so feel free to tell me about them.

 

[gismapper]

I agree with you actually, but I don't blame it all on the psychological. Unbiased research also declares that chemical imbalances play a role in homosexuality as well. This is a concept that we are afraid of because it is used against us in arguments. However, there is still a choice whether to give in or not regardless of psychological affairs or chemical imbalances. There are just more factors to go by than the ones mentioned is all I am trying to say. I do want to thank you for explaining further and offering resources, I wouldn't mind looking in to them so feel free to tell me about them.

I hope that I'm not violating any forum rules by posting info regarding external websites. Instead of a link, I'll simply refer you to the articles on the NARTH website. They have many cited works, both critiquing the secular "born gay" theories, and supporting the theories on homosexual development which match the experiences seen by therapists in clinical practice. NARTH is the national association for research and therapy of homosexuality. Let me know what you think.

 

[Beans]

Hi Gismapper. Thanks for your brave testimony. It means a lot.

I have been reading about a condition that affects adopted and neglected kids called Reactive Attachment Disorder. It is a condition that effects people for their whole life, but it can come from neglect or a break in mother (or parent) child internaction even in first year of life, when the brain is still forming. Apparently if the child fails to bond to a parent figure all future relationships will be effected. Apparently the brain is setting up major organisational structures and pathways during this time through which all other information filtered. The condition usually revolves around the mother and how responsive she is to the child. If the child's cries and his/her needs are repeatedly not met, the brain learns that the parent can not be trusted to provide for him/her and the child assumes that they cannot trust anyone to the point where when they are adopted or get into a stable relationship they assume that they will be betrayed sooner or later. Because of that constant suspicion the child will sometimes test the parents with bad/agressive behaviour and when the parents get angry, the kid tells him/herself that they are being rejected. It's very difficult and complicated for the parents to cope with.

Anyway, my point is, I am seriously wondering if the mother's relationship (or lack thereof) can so profoundly effect the social development of a child, then maybe neglect or abuse from the Father would also have far reaching implications mentally too? One of them perhaps, homosexuality? Just a thought.

Acceptance and love are just so important for childhood development. I just shudder to think of how all these millions of kids who spend most of their time in day care are going to turn out! Talk about skrewed up priorities!

 

[gismapper]

Hi Gismapper. Thanks for your brave testimony. It means a lot.

I have been reading about a condition that affects adopted and neglected kids called Reactive Attachment Disorder. It is a condition that effects people for their whole life, but it can come from neglect or a break in mother (or parent) child internaction even in first year of life, when the brain is still forming. Apparently if the child fails to bond to a parent figure all future relationships will be effected. Apparently the brain is setting up major organisational structures and pathways during this time through which all other information filtered. The condition usually revolves around the mother and how responsive she is to the child. If the child's cries and his/her needs are repeatedly not met, the brain learns that the parent can not be trusted to provide for him/her and the child assumes that they cannot trust anyone to the point where when they are adopted or get into a stable relationship they assume that they will be betrayed sooner or later. Because of that constant suspicion the child will sometimes test the parents with bad/agressive behaviour and when the parents get angry, the kid tells him/herself that they are being rejected. It's very difficult and complicated for the parents to cope with.

Anyway, my point is, I am seriously wondering if the mother's relationship (or lack thereof) can so profoundly effect the social development of a child, then maybe neglect or abuse from the Father would also have far reaching implications mentally too? One of them perhaps, homosexuality? Just a thought.

Acceptance and love are just so important for childhood development. I just shudder to think of how all these millions of kids who spend most of their time in day care are going to turn out! Talk about skrewed up priorities!

That's a great thought. I've heard it expressed a number of different ways: as a filter or lens we look through, as a picture frame that influences our impression of the picture itself, as judgmental expectations we put on people, even as just a chip on the shoulder. I've also heard it expressed as a highway that gets built in your brain, strengthening connections between neurons every time the damaging pattern is "rehearsed". There is no doubt in my mind (no pun intended) that there is a physiological impact from these things.

I think many in the church have bristled against this idea because they fear it would amount to an excuse for sinful behavior. But if used responsibly, this information could be leveraged to help people who struggle with all kinds of habitual sins. But i think there a real temptation for me is to become so disillusioned when I fail to see progress that I give up trying to change. God tells us to renew our minds according to His Word. All kinds of scriptural references to that. Where I get stuck is not knowing how to actually do that. Is it rote memorization? Repetition? Is there some spiritual "event" that must take place to apply these things to my soul? Or is it just mental exercises? Does it involve other people intervening? Some combination of all that? I think I'd make more progress if I knew what kind of help would help. Or is it simply brute force obedience to not give those established mental highways any more traffic?

It bothers me to think that these things might not be fixable in this life, I'll be honest. But as the angel asked, "Is anything too difficult for the Lord?". But we live in a world that is cursed by sin. It's a fallen world and we see all sorts of organic, biological problems as a result of thousands of years of sin ravaging the world. But according to the book of Hebrews, the real prize, the real reward, and the real glory to God comes when we choose to live in this world *above* our circumstances, in obedience to God, even if it results in our death. So, whether I ever feel complete change inside me is irrelevant. Am I living as the man God made me to be? Am I doing His will? That's the standard anyone's progress should be measured in. It's a testimony to the world and to the angelic realm.

Thank you so much, to everyone who is encouraging me and praying for me. I really need it.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Glad to be your brother!

And that's a "Forever Brother"!!!!
Love you brother, stay strong! Praying for you and yours.

 

[stephon]

restoration

i heard of a good organisation for those from the jewish faith - yesterday.

it's called jews offering new alternatives to homosexuality - google JONAHWEB for details.

they're already facing condemnation from those who want to promote a homosexual lifestyle to all and sundry.

i think there are also similar organisations doing similar work with christians.

 

[Beans]

I think many in the church have bristled against this idea because they fear it would amount to an excuse for sinful behavior. But if used responsibly, this information could be leveraged to help people who struggle with all kinds of habitual sins. But i think there a real temptation for me is to become so disillusioned when I fail to see progress that I give up trying to change. God tells us to renew our minds according to His Word. All kinds of scriptural references to that. Where I get stuck is not knowing how to actually do that. Is it rote memorization? Repetition? Is there some spiritual "event" that must take place to apply these things to my soul? Or is it just mental exercises? Does it involve other people intervening? Some combination of all that? I think I'd make more progress if I knew what kind of help would help. Or is it simply brute force obedience to not give those established mental highways any more traffic?

Good questions. I'm not sure I can give you any real "concrete" answers. My intuitive response is that the answer is a combination of all those things. In some ways I think it is just "brute force obedience" but I do think you need to fill the space with something else, and the best thing to fill it with is people.
I have found that the only thing that "fills the space" when I feel empty is getting busy working for the LORD, helping other people. When we get out there and confront the suffering in the World and try to do something to help, then we cease to think about ourselves and all our problems and struggles come into better perspective.
I hope that is of some help.

Beans