Is homosexuality a result of imperfection?

[agua]

Righteous judgment.

The fruit we show as followers of Christ should never be contradictory to God's holy standards. We know what God hates and therefore we should abstain from, and not condone, the practice of these things.

1Co 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, (10) nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.


If we say homosexuality is acceptable then we must also condone adultry,theft,drunkeness..etc. We know this is not the case.

The church is to judge it's members and guide them in behaviour. A brother corrects a brother out of love. This is righteous judgment based upon God's holy standards.

1Co 5:9-13 I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. (10) Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. (11) But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. (12) For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? (13) But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "PUT AWAY FROM YOURSELVES THE EVIL PERSON."

If we decide to accept things that are ungodly, are we placing ouselves amongst those mentioned in Romans 1:32 ?

Rom 1:26-32 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. (27) Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. (28) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; (29) being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, (30) backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, (31) undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; (32) who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

 

[agua]

Jesus said:
Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
Matt 7:19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

We don't want fire so we should see how Jesus will judge the trees.

Matt 7:20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
Matt 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

He's going to judge us by our fruit,so what kind of fruit is he looking for?I don't think God Judges fruits the way we do.

Matthew 7 is part of the Sermon on the Mount. The "thesis" if you will, of that sermon is this:

For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
(Mat 5:20)

From that point on, Jesus is elucidating that statement; He is explaining what that righteousness looks like. So that is the overall context. Chapter 7 is part of that explanation. When you get to chapter 7 notice how the chapter begins to make several comparisons.

There are:

1. Two gates
2. Two roads
3 Two kinds of trees
4. Two kinds of fruit
5. Two kinds of prophets

The broad gate/road that leads to destruction represented the teachings of the Pharisees. The Pharisees and their righteousness are the evil tree and bad fruit. They are also the false prophets who think they have done many great things for God. They boast in their deeds and what they have done, but Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you."

This is ...Jesus' condemnation of the Pharisees and their so-called "righteousness."
(shiloh357)

Matt. 25:32 the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
25:33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 25:34 Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
25:35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 25:36 I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.’
25:37 Then the righteous will answer him,
‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
25:38 When
did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? 25:39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’
25:40 And the king will answer them,‘I tell you the truth,
just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.’

Good fruit "is"actions of love for God and one another.
The bad fruit is the high power movers and shakers who don't have a clue how to love without judging.

This passage is about the Lord judging THE NATIONS. This is not personal judgment of individual people. Now notice in this passage, there are three separate groups of people:

1. Goats
2. Sheep
3. "My Brethren."

This passage is about how Jesus will judge the nations for how they treated His "brethren," namely the nation of Israel/the Jewish people. People have made that passage out to be about how people have treated the poor and needy but the context doesn't allow for that. It is a judgment of nations and it correlates with Joel 3 where God assembles the nations in the valley of Jehosaphat.

"For behold, in those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. And I will enter into judgment with them there, on behalf of my people and my heritage Israel, because they have scattered them among the nations and have divided up my land, and have cast lots for my people, and have traded a boy for a prostitute, and have sold a girl for wine and have drunk it.
(Joe 3:1-3)

(snip)

Let the nations stir themselves up and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; for there I will sit to judge all the surrounding nations.
(Joe 3:12)


"Egypt shall become a desolation and Edom a desolate wilderness, for the violence done to the people of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land. But Judah shall be inhabited forever, and Jerusalem to all generations. I will avenge their blood, blood I have not avenged, for the LORD dwells in Zion."
(Joe 3:19-21)

( shiloh357)

BTW:Konquistador has a historical point about Centurions and the customs of the day.History is pretty messy and the even Talmud contained some VERY controversial allowances.

Please post the specific information and the specific sources that can be viewed and verified.

 

[Beans]

Hi Agua.
Firstly, I think our job as Christians is to love these people. You may say that loving the Homosexual means telling them that they are going to hell, which while it might be true, will probably not acheive that much. Since they have almost certainly heard it all before. I think it's time for another approach.

The other thing is that, in the Church, I have noticed we are very hard on Homosexual sins but not on Hetrosexual sins. Why is that? Isn't someone just as likely to go to hell for having sex before marriage, as they are for having homosexual sex?
So why all the "righteous indignation"? Shouldn't we be pulling the beam out of our own eyes, before we try to take the speck out of someone elses?
In the mean time lets try to win our wayward brothers to the Lord through Love. Amen?

 

[agua]

Hi Agua.
Firstly, I think our job as Christians is to love these people. You may say that loving the Homosexual means telling them that they are going to hell, which while it might be true, will probably not acheive that much. Since they have almost certainly heard it all before. I think it's time for another approach.

The other thing is that, in the Church, I have noticed we are very hard on Homosexual sins but not on Hetrosexual sins. Why is that? Isn't someone just as likely to go to hell for having sex before marriage, as they are for having homosexual sex?
So why all the "righteous indignation"? Shouldn't we be pulling the beam out of our own eyes, before we try to take the speck out of someone elses?
In the mean time lets try to win our wayward brothers to the Lord through Love. Amen?

Yes we do love the sinner but we hate the sin. I would not tell a sinner they are going to hell but will definitely tell them the truth of their sin. It does not matter whether this is homosexuality or any other . No church should focus , or be harder, on one sin compared to another but they should always tell the truth as stated by God.

This thread happens to be about homosexuality and had been diverted by some to suggest that homosexual activity is acceptable to God and we should not judge this as sin. If the thread was about adultry,stealing, or idolatry etc , I am quite sure no one would be suggesting these things are acceptable.

We are to help eachother stay within God's standards and guide eachother with truth and love. If we accept the sin as being ok then we are actually hating the sinner by allowing them to continue unchallenged in perilous behaviour.

Remember God does correct His children when they stray and He does this because he loves them. This is the very reason we need to keep eachother from evil pursuits. Because we love eachother we do not wish to see anyone stuck in sin especially out of incorrect understanding.

I do accept your point though beans as being very valid in many churches. Thank you for pointing this out.

 

[gismapper]

mental gymnastics

It's a sign of the times that this is even being debated in a Christian forum.

The argument that "if it's wrong for you, then its a sin" is post-modern relativism, not sound Christian doctrine. The more mental gymnastics one has to perform, the greater chance that the doctrine is wrong.

I came out of homosexuality. I'm not bashing or hating anyone. But homosexuality develops out of a combination of one's personality, their life's circumstances, and their reactions to those circumstances. It's hard to understand for anyone who hasn't been through it. I don't expect to make anyone understand it. But i had to unravel how i got there, and what i realized was that i was trying to acquiire masculinity from the outside in. I was reacting to life out of fear and pain and insecurity and envy. The answer to all these is in renewing our minds through the Bible, the Holy Spirit, prayer, and much patience. Support from the church is necessary too.

To leave someone in such a state would be like saying it's ok to keep getting drunk all the time. You have good reasons to get drunk. It feels right. It helps you cope. Its only a sin to get drunk if getting drunk isn't for you. Silly. Just silly.

I was bashed by some in the church for having these desires. I was bashed by every gay person i knew for trying to change. In the end, God is transforming me into the man He created me to be. Shame on anyone who would not love me enough to help me change. The haters will say, "that's great for you, but don't tell me i have to change." So, do we just let alcoholics waste their lives away? Do we let depressed people wallow in misery? After all, maybe they're just born melancholy. Renewal is never a bad thing.

Sorry for the long post. But one last point; marriage is a mystery. It's a picture of Christ and the church. There can only be one Christ and one church. Jesus is the groom, the church is the bride. If you mess with the "type" of marriage, you mess with the "type" of salvation. There can only be one Christ (groom) and one bride (church). That's what marriage is, and why God established it. Moses wasn't allowed into the promised land because he messed with the "type" of the Rock (Christ). I don't think God is pleased with men re-defining marriage to suit themselves. Just some food for thought.

 

[agua]

gismapper

Thanks for sharing your story gismapper. I am sorry to hear of the terrible treatment you received from some in the church.

Just as well God is good and Jesus is Lord and you are safe.

God bless.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

I also want to thank you for posting gismapper.Having gone through this I consider your opinion of great weight.

To leave someone in such a state would be like saying it's ok to keep getting drunk all the time. You have good reasons to get drunk. It feels right. It helps you cope. Its only a sin to get drunk if getting drunk isn't for you. Silly. Just silly.

It is easy to spot some peoples sin but sins like pride and and idolatry which can suck good folks in are actually more dangerous to the body of Christ than those outward easy to spot ones that logically lead to destruction or misery.

How should have your case been handled while you struggled?
Was it pain,fear or the goodness of God that led you to repentance?
How do you begin the process of ministering to someone who is only mildly interested in the Bible or God?

 

[B-A-C]

The other thing is that, in the Church, I have noticed we are very hard on Homosexual sins but not on Hetrosexual sins. Why is that? Isn't someone just as likely to go to hell for having sex before marriage, as they are for having homosexual sex?
So why all the "righteous indignation"? Shouldn't we be pulling the beam out of our own eyes, before we try to take the speck out of someone elses?

I think the main thing here is most Gay's are trying to convince everyone it's not a sin. You don't hear people saying adultery, pornography and fornication aren't sin. I've never heard the term "fornicator pride" or "adulterer pride" only gay pride.

Even the media, movies about affairs are acceptable and even make a good story sometimes, but nobody really tries to say it isn't sin. On the other hand homosexuality is promoted and even encouraged by the media.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Agua
Please post the specific information and the specific sources that can be viewed and verified.

Check Wikipedia for "homosexuality in the militaries of Ancient Greece".
Alexander the Great conquered the area around Judea 330 years before the birth of Christ.Greek culture was so engrained that they wrote the new testament in Greek.By the time of Jesus the Romans had taken over
and the practice was continued but was more hushed.
Check Wikipedia for "homosexuality in the militaries of Ancient Rome"
To see how engrained it was wiki "homosexuality in Ancient Rome" and
"homosexuality in Ancient Greece".

This passage is about the Lord judging THE NATIONS. This is not personal judgment of individual people. Now notice in this passage, there are three separate groups of people:

Matt. 25:32 the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

It claims he assembles nations separates people.
How could a nation visit people in jail when they put them there?
Matt 25:39 When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

If this is about nations it would be a good argument for government welfare programs and immigration.
25:37 Then the righteous will answer him,
‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?
25:38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you?

 

[Brother Mike]

What is going on here.

It's a sign of the times that this is even being debated in a Christian forum.

The argument that "if it's wrong for you, then its a sin" is post-modern relativism, not sound Christian doctrine. The more mental gymnastics one has to perform, the greater chance that the doctrine is wrong.

You are correct. It is a sign of the times..... This should not even be a discussion at all...

Once Again....... I'll say it..
Presbyterians voted for Gay ministers.... 4 million followers lost after the wrong thing..

Methodist Just now taking votes, and have had Gay ministers.. Though in the past they have denounced gay marriage.. now it's on the table..

Taken from Boston.com

Support for same-sex marriage has percolated inside the United Methodist Church since 2008, when the church’s top legislative body, the General Conference, took a vote that narrowly affirmed the denomination’s stance against same-sex unions.
That contentious vote for the nation’s second-largest Protestant denomination illustrated a clear rift that has bubbled from the ranks of some 400 clergy in New York, Illinois, and Minnesota who have signed statements akin to the pledge from the New England ministers.
The General Conference includes nearly 1,000 clergy and lay members from around the world who meet every four years to set policy. It decided by a 501-to-417 vote in 2008 to leave provisions barring gay marriage and the practice of homosexuality intact.

501-to-417...... It won't be long...... and why even the vote???

World wide membership of 12 million, soon to follow the wrong thing..8 million in the USA alone.

Lutheran. Voted to have gay clergy.....

70.3 million............lost, but memberships have been declining since the vote..

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:3 Let no one deceive or beguile you in any way, for that day will not come except the [1] apostasy comes first [unless the predicted great [2] falling away of those who have professed to be Christians has come], and the man of lawlessness (sin) is revealed, who is the son of doom (of perdition),(1)
Jesus Is Lord

 

[gismapper]

I also want to thank you for posting gismapper.Having gone through this I consider your opinion of great weight.

It is easy to spot some peoples sin but sins like pride and and idolatry which can suck good folks in are actually more dangerous to the body of Christ than those outward easy to spot ones that logically lead to destruction or misery.

How should have your case been handled while you struggled?
Was it pain,fear or the goodness of God that led you to repentance?
How do you begin the process of ministering to someone who is only mildly interested in the Bible or God?

You're all very welcome...if God can get some glory out of the misery my life once was, then i'll be content that i went through it.

Crosshurts, i wouldn't say the hidden ones are necessarily more dangerous...only if the church doesn't bother to teach that pride and idolatry (or even gluttony!) is sin. If the church is preaching and teaching the full counsel of God, all sin and all sinners are on equal footing. But i hear what youre saying about how sin can hide.

Thank you for taking the time to ask those questions. They deserve an answer.

The most helpful people were the ones who were very open about their own failures. It's very uncomfortable to be vulnerable and expose your deepest fears and wounds to someone who comes across as never having struggled with anything. I guess some people dont have much natural empathy either. But when i met a guy who had no trouble telling the world that alcohol almost destroyed him, but Jesus redeemed him, i clung to every word and i used his experience to tell myself that freedom was possible. Now, i want to be that open for others who are hurting.

I was 13 when i got saved. But my same gender attractions reach back to my earliest memories. I can understand why people say they were born that way. They really were...but what does "that way" really mean? Young children have no concept of attractions the way adults do. But they know love and acceptance when they feel it. And they crave love. I was born with an emotional need for my father's masculine love and the acceptance of my male peers. I never got it.

My mom was "safe" and girls were safe, but my dad, brother, and boys in general were too rough and scary to me. I desperately wanted love and acceptance, but only got abuse and rejection. This didnt make the need go away, it just left me with a gaping hole inside where i should have felt connected with my male gender.

As my body matured, girls were familiar to me, very well understood. But men were a complete mystery. Those feelings were in the wrong place at the wrong time and got swept up in the physical response my body was developing. Unfortunately, i discovered that there were other guys who felt the same way, and i could get a quick hit of masculine attention when i wanted it. I just had to give up some of my soul for it. But when you hurt so bad inside, it doesnt seem so unreasonable. But it doesnt fix the real problem. Masculinity cant be acquired from the outside in.

It took years of work to unravel it all and to begin to reconnect with men in godly, healthy ways. As i forgave and grew up in Christ, i began to heal inside. Jesus helped me overcome my fear and pain. I began to act like the man God made me to be. Masculine feelings followed. It's not easy. Many give up along the way. The world even says it's dangerous to try to change. I'll grant them that: it's dangerous to the kingdom of darkness.

The gay community is all about tolerance and acceptance...until you mention the idea of change. Try it some time and see.

Wow...so sorry for the long post. But for the sake of anyone who's struggling and dying inside, i must speak out. There is hope!

I was equally motivated by my pain, the fear of losing my salvation, the fear of catching a disease, and to a lesser extent (sadly), the love and kindness of God. Only because it's very hard to grasp the love of a heavenly father or our heavenly brother Jesus, when the only males i knew were harsh, rejecting, and abusive. I couldnt deny what the Bible says, but i couldnt feel it, either. But He was being kind to me anyway.

This is going to sound kind of stupid, but if you're a "manly man," and you love Jesus, take a chance and talk to guys that seem geeky or awkward. It would have knocked me over if any of the manly leaders in my church showed any interest in me. Those were the kind of guys who hurt me and bullied me my whole life growing up. Then i went to church and got ignored ther too because i didnt fit in. But i just never had anyone to teach me how to get along with other guys. Believe me, it took a while. But i am forever in debt to the one or two who dared to take the chance.

Don't water down the message. Its ok to call sin "sin." But understand that there's a reason these folks are craving affection from their own gender. A lifetime of rejection is hard to handle. Can you see why they demand that the world treat them as normal? Can you see why they so desperately want an equal footing with the rest of the population? Can you understand why these folks are so angry all the time? So hateful? All theyve known is rejection. Somehow, we have to find a way to show them love as individuals without compromising the truth of the Bible.

 

[Beans]

Wow! Fantastic post gismapper!

Thanks for sharing so deeply and candidly about your experiences. You have a very important message for the Church.
What really hit home to me from what you said (which I guess is obvious when you think about it) is that homosexuality is a reaction to rejection. A failure by Society and the Church to provide a safe nurturing, supportive environment for young men and boys.
I agree that homosexuality is a sin, but I see our job as Christians is to try and figure why it is happening and to do what we can to solve the root of the problem not just to condemn.

I think gismapper's testimony reveals some areas that we can be working on in our communities
Things like speaking out against violent and aggressive role models/behavior. The importance of father/Son and other male bonding and the need for youth groups and youth activities (sports?) where young guys get an opportunity for healthy interaction with positive role models.

I think a lot of popular "male culture" is actually pretty unhealthy spiritually. It's a kind of macho philosophy where feelings are seen as weakness and pushed to out of conciousness. Our culture is a culture that pretty much says guys are not supposed to have emotional needs. Which is absolute rubbish and pushes men to one extreme or the other. Either totally suppress your feelings (except for anger, which is the one acceptable emotion for men) or be ostracised for being too sensitive.

Thanks so much for sharing your experiences, gismapper. I hope you continue in what could become one of the most important ministries of our time. A genuine, compassionate response to homosexuality from the church (not just the political compromises we see now).

Beans

 

[gismapper]

making a difference

Things like speaking out against violent and aggressive role models/behavior. The importance of father/Son and other male bonding and the need for youth groups and youth activities (sports?) where young guys get an opportunity for healthy interaction with positive role models.

I think a lot of popular "male culture" is actually pretty unhealthy spiritually. It's a kind of macho philosophy where feelings are seen as weakness and pushed to out of conciousness. Our culture is a culture that pretty much says guys are not supposed to have emotional needs. Which is absolute rubbish and pushes men to one extreme or the other. Either totally suppress your feelings (except for anger, which is the one acceptable emotion for men) or be ostracised for being too sensitive.

Correct on all points!

There are some kids who just never had the opportunity to develop the more physical, rough and tumble part of their personalities. I was one of those. One brother in church taught me how to throw a football when i was 27. I had stayed away from football altogether b/c i couldn't compete and no one ever took the time to explain it to me. So this guy who used to play in highschool took it upon himself to teach me what he knew. Sure, i could have learned it from the internet, but the whole point was to invest in me, not just for me to acquire information. It's like someone finally taught me the secret handshake to get in the club house. I was very standoffish at first. I needed to know that this guy was for real and not just drawing me out so he could make a fool out of me. Healthy, healing relationships take time and commitment. But sometimes i was greatly helped by the smallest of one-line compliments that guys whom i respected made, unexpectedly, about things i had done.

There are other boys who are very creative and expressive who have been put down for not being more physical and tough. Can't we find some way to bless and encourage these kids as young men, even if they really don't have an interest in sports or fishing or whatever culture says is "manly?" Just having the affirmation, acceptance, and approval of another guy can go so far.

As for girls, i'm no authority on how these issues play out in their lives. I imagine there are similarities. But i'm sure there are unique differences in both the way "in" and the way "out." God grant that we would have the patience and interest to reach out beyond our comfort zones and be a blessing to children who are at risk...or even adults who have suffered in silence for decades.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Thanks for those answers gismapper,I thought I posted a response but it didn't post for some reason.

I hear what your saying about an accept and embrace attitude being unacceptable.But that began long ago when we began accepting adultery and divorce as normal acceptable sin.

We allow divorced people to marry and accept their new spouse with open arms.Scripture clearly indicates that we should reconcile with our spouse or remain unmarried.But the church just does not want to lose half of it's people.Can you imagine telling people they have to divorce their 2nd or 3rd spouse and go back and try to reconcile with their first spouse?I would want a bullet proof pulpit.

Adultery is just more palatable.
I don't think I should require a gay to divorce their spouse to be in Gods will then not tell people in a second marriage they can have their adulterous relationship.

 

[Beans]

Yes, thiscrosshurts. There definitely needs to be more consistency in the Church on how we deal with sexual issues. Like I said in an earlier post, why are hetrosexual sins overlooked while homosexual sins are not?
I'm advocating that we allow active homosexuals into the Church, but I do think we need to clean up our own act before we judge them too harshly. It is very well documented that the Homosexual community has been discriminated against, and we should be careful that we don't discriminate against them too. They are people like the rest of us, who just need to know about Jesus and be shown some love.

I think if we expect homosexuals to be selebate then it is only fair that we expect unmarried people to remain selabate too.
When it comes to marraige obviously we could not condone gay marraige, but we can't be hypocritical about the issue and try to pretend that hetrosexuals are somehow morally superior and there for require different standards. Sin is sin after all.

No, I think the most constructive approach is to try and tackle the proble at the source. Which IMO is upbringing and family/social relationships. And of course to try to be as understanding and consistent as possible.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

No, I think the most constructive approach is to try and tackle the problem at the source. Which IMO is upbringing and family/social relationships. And of course to try to be as understanding and consistent as possible.

As men that is the best we can do.
The source of the problem is the same as Jesus encountered.
Matt. 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Thanks to God there is an answer:
Mark 10:27 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but not with God; all things are possible with God."

John 3:20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

It is noteworthy to mention that John 3:20 uses the word evil.
In the original Greek {phaula} Strong's 5537 = worthless, bad


1 Peter 2:22:Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth
Whereas the word sin here is{amartian} Strong's 266= a sin,failure1
John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The sin here is {amartanein}.Strong's 264 =
to miss the mark, do wrong, sin

Everyone misses the mark but that does not make them bad or worthless or even a failure.Sinners may seek the light while evil shrinks back to hide in darkness.

 

[Richie]

This is a subject i would quite like your views on.Because of the line of work i have often been invoved in i have come into contact with a lot of people some of whom are homosexual.Im a very frank person and have asked many of them why they adopted this lifestyle.To a hetro-sexual person it is a compltete mystery to me how you can find someone of the same sex, sexually attractive?What was interesting about many of their replies is that homosexuals seem to fall into two catergories.The first catergory being people who have had bad hetro-sexual experiences,ie abusive realationships,unfaithful partners etc.They have turned to their own sex in the misguided notion that these things would no longer affect them.It is the second catergory which raises the question that entitles this thread.These are people who are homosexual because they have only ever been attracted to ones of their own sex,in fact the thought of physical contact with the opposite sex is repugnant.So could homosexuality be in the genes?

Well apparently I had a glance at all the posts here in thread. It's been quite sometime since I've been here and it is great to be back.

What I find really disturbing is that, some of the replies here are based on his/her own understanding rather than looking up on God's word.

I would really encourage you people to turn your bible's to Romans 1:18 - 32. You will find Paul the apostle clearly stating that homosexuality is a result of absolute perversion.

Vs 21*Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused.

Vs 22*Claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead.

Vs 23*And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people, or birds and animals and snakes.

Vs 24*So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies.

Vs 25*Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen.

Vs 26*That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other.

vs 27*And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.

Although homosexuality is not so prevalent in India, but ofcourse slowly it's increasing, I should say it is because the people chose to reject the truth of God, God let them have their shameful ways. What used to be shameful during the past doesn't seem to be so shameful in today's world, people are gone immune to such shameful desires, it's now a fantasy. The standards or morality and modesty have gone down drastically, just like the days of Noah.

 

[B-A-C]

Homosexuality isn't a "reaction" to an experience. It's just sin.
Many homosexuals will say 'well, I was just born this way'.
No doubt they were.

We are all born into sin. Some are born liars, some born thieves, some have alcohol addictions, some drugs, some pornography. We are all born with different and unique tendencies toward a specific sin.

We can say well I stole something from because they hurt me, or I had an affair because my spouse had a fight with me, or I became a homosexual because I was rejected in a heterosexual relationship or I was abused, or whatever.

Two sins don't make a right. Sin is sin. We all have excuses for what we do, but in the end it's just selfishness and pride.

 

[gismapper]

Homosexuality isn't a "reaction" to an experience. It's just sin.

That's an oversimplification. It is sin, true enough. But it really is a sinful reaction to a combination of experiences and individual personality. It's an important distiction because if the way out of same gender attractions was as simple as repenting of sin, it would be a much quicker and easier process. Homosexuality is also a matter of a learned identity. You can't just repent your way out of a learned identity. It takes repentance, and growth, and renewal of the mind.

As for reactions to experiences...Eve sinned as a "reaction" to her experience of temptation. She wasn't born into sin. This is what Romans 1 is talking about. This is the darkness that comes over anyone who sets aside God's standards. It doesn't depend on a prior sinful condition.

Many homosexuals will say 'well, I was just born this way'.
No doubt they were.

Please read my earlier post...they were most certainly not born homosexuals. God made them male and female. As we learn and grow into the roles God made us for, we experience feelings in line with those roles. Folks with same gender attractions were interrupted in the development of those proper roles, and therefore do not experience the corresponding feelings. They were not born gay.

We are all born into sin.

Absolutely!

Two sins don't make a right. Sin is sin. We all have excuses for what we do, but in the end it's just selfishness and pride.

Pardon me for saying so, but the tone of many comments here sound like they lack compassion. You seem to minimize the role of pain and deep emotional wounds in tempting people to sin. I would never condone or excuse sin. But, dear sirs, i was deeply wounded by my father utterly rejecting me as a small child. Would you call a small boy's desire for his daddy's love "selfishness and pride?" Dear richie, would you call it "absolute perversion"?

All i'm asking for is some understanding that there really are reasons....real reasons...for why people pursue same gender attractions as a lifestyle. If you ever have the opportunity to help someone who is struggling with these things and is trying to get free, you will do even more good if you present to them not only the scriptures that relate to our sinful condition, but also present the scriptures that show Jesus as the good shepherd who intimately loves His sheep, and present God as the heavenly Father who is good, faithful, merciful, compassionate, a safe tower of strength in which to hide. These things were all missing from my life as a small boy with an unsafe dad.

By all means, present sin as sin. Selfishness and pride are at the heart of many sins. Along with envy (a BIG contributor!). Homosexuality itself is a sin. But if all i hear from you is that i'm proud and selfish and absolutely perverted, you will sound too much like my earthly father for me to care what else you have to say. I was bullied and called all kinds of awful names by my dad and my brother and my male peers. Can you see how your incomplete understanding of the root cause of my confusion sounds like more name calling and belittling?

The guy who led me to Jesus was crying for me because i was his friend and i was going to be judged for my sins and he didnt want to see that happen. No other guy ever cared about me that much. His love for me didnt save me...Jesus did. But that guy's love for me got my attention enough for me to hear the bad news (that i was a sinner in big trouble), and then the Good News. I listened because i felt like he was on my side.

Hopefully, i just misunderstood where you were coming from. Growing into one's proper gender is not easy or quick. Sometimes, oversimplifying the root cause makes it sound like the "solutuon" is to just "pray the gay away." Just repent already, will ya? I hope you didn't mean it that way, but i wanted to put this out there for any who are saved and trying to overcome these desires (or even those who don't know Jesus). Change is possible...Don't ever give up! I'm happily married now with 3 great kids...not that marriage is the goal...Christlikeness is the goal. But change does happen if we persevere.

 

[stephon]

homosexuality is wrong

i agree with those who say it's wrong - but then again it's not something i personally have to wrestle with, thank God.

there's a lot of pressure in the uk to regard it as normal - i went to an evening class the other week and some guy kept talking about his "husband".

i wanted to give him a good shake and say "get a grip on reality!"