Is purgatory a myth and where did it come from?

[Admon Mikha'el]

Calvinism, Annihilaitonism, Eternal torture in hell these are satanic doctrines as they paint God as wicked.

A belief of ''extra time'' is nowhere close to satanic.

If you disagree, please list the reasons that make you oppose this doctrine so. Don't merely quote Heb 9:27 or change the topic and speak about further issues you have with the RCC.

To start with, I have no issue at all with the RCC...I dealt with that more than a half century ago...The only reason I am talking about it is because there was a question asked. Actually too, Hebrews 9:27 is probably the best verse, it cancels out completely the doctrine of purgatory....If you choose to believe that verse.

Deuteronomy 30:19-20 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

19 “I call on heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have presented you with life and death, the blessing and the curse. Therefore, choose life, so that you will live, you and your descendants, 20 loving Adonai your God, paying attention to what he says and clinging to him — for that is the purpose of your life!

Every single solitary choice in our life is one of these two….No matter what you choose, it comes from either the Life cycle (I’ll call it that) or the Death cycle. Every choice you make leads to good or bad…

I said that to say this…Even what you choose to believe falls into one of the two cycles…What you believe can lead you to life or it can lead you to death. You believe in the salvation Jesus offers you, so you reach out and take it…You get life..Or if you choose not to believe, you do not reach out and take it…You get death/ hell/ the lake of fire

You choose to read good books…you grow/stretch you mind, stretch your thinking, see new possibilities Life

You choose bad books…you shrivel inside/ poison your mind and live in a dark hole all of your life (death) and then you die and again the lake of fire..

If what you choose to believe sets you free to fly, leads to heath, happiness and all the good stuff, then you chose life.

If what you choose to believe will either bring you into bondage, or leads to ruin, death, illness etc then you chose from the death side of your choice.

To simplify….Anything that puts you into bondage of any sort, anything that steals life from you is from the enemy…Satanic…Anything!

Anything that brings you life, health, wealth, freedom, happiness is from God…

There is no one sin worse than another, and unbelief is unbelief....There is only one level of unbelief.... One deception is the same as another....If you take it and go into unbelief you have chosen from the Death Cycle.....Satanic teaching

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

There is a lot to research on indulgences.

We need to create a thread and tackle one matter at a time.

The Catholic church has been around for a long time. It is easy to find faults and make blanket accusations. It does not show intelligence, it shows laziness and pride.

I'm getting the impression here that you are still in a Romanist church? If so that's ok....It would just explain your hostility.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

BAC you have not read my post, you like Admon are skimming my posts. I do appreciate the effort you put in to a reply.

But let me be clear. I do not believe in Purgatory. I do not want to post the scriptures Catholics use to construct the belief. I agree with your view and all the scriptures you quote opposing Purgatory.

My point to Admon is for him to bring his defense, his reasons for calling what is a harmless belief, a satanic doctrine.

Well Now, son you have your answer...It is a Satanic doctrine because it comes from Satan, who comes to steal, kill, and destroy

 

[Garee]

You teach that God will execute capital punishment on all who reject Him with annihilationism and that He picks three (satan, beast and false prophet) to endure excruciating pain in fire for all eternity. IE No free will = evil, torture = height of wickedness.....and yet you stand firm in condemning as satanic those who simply believe in some ''extra time''. Seriously?

The bible does not teach that there will be suffering after one dies and the corrupted body of death turns to dust and spirit returns to the father. That is if one has not been given freely and new born again will as a heart .

Being yoked with Christ our burden is lighter and we have a hope beyond the last breath. Those who say we do suffer after we die simply make the fullness of Christ grace without effect. God does not offer a unknown amount of grace as some teach

If you mean execute capital punishment according to the letter of the law as it is written? What does the letter of the law say below? The father of lies says one will surely not die

Geneisis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

It kills showing we are suffering the first death and final for those not given a new spirit that will never die.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

On the last day under the sun (the temporal time period) the second death .death itself will be cast into the spirit of judgment. It will not arise in the new heavens and earth and condemn it thorough , Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

''extra time''. Seriously?

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

Well Now, son you have your answer...It is a Satanic doctrine because it comes from Satan, who comes to steal, kill, and destroy

Nobody said that the person who believes in the existence of purgatory goes to hell....All of us will have some misbeliefs when we go.. What takes us to heaven to be with Him is Trust/faith...Believing in HIM I'm still not sure why you find this so offensive.

 

[Garee]

Nobody said that the person who believes in the existence of purgatory goes to hell....All of us will have some misbeliefs when we go.. What takes us to heaven to be with Him is Trust/faith...Believing in HIM I'm still not sure why you find this so offensive.

Purgatory which is suffering after one takes thier last breath (dead never to rise "not sleeping" ) simply does despite to the fulness of Christ grace by which we are saved til the end . They deny the grace of God. The last breath is the last breath . Those who have been given a new born again spirit will rise .

 

[KingJ]

To start with, I have no issue at all with the RCC.

You clearly do, you call a harmless belief satanic.

Every single solitary choice in our life is one of these two….No matter what you choose, it comes from either the Life cycle (I’ll call it that) or the Death cycle. Every choice you make leads to good or bad…

There are levels in both. Catholics serve Jesus. Purgatory is a Rom 14:5 disagreement. When a Catholic picks up a bible they have 73 books. None of them are satanic or like the account of Judas.

I said that to say this…Even what you choose to believe falls into one of the two cycles…What you believe can lead you to life or it can lead you to death. You believe in the salvation Jesus offers you, so you reach out and take it…You get life..Or if you choose not to believe, you do not reach out and take it…You get death/ hell/ the lake of fire

You choose to read good books…you grow/stretch you mind, stretch your thinking, see new possibilities Life

You choose bad books…you shrivel inside/ poison your mind and live in a dark hole all of your life (death) and then you die and again the lake of fire..

If what you choose to believe sets you free to fly, leads to heath, happiness and all the good stuff, then you chose life.

If what you choose to believe will either bring you into bondage, or leads to ruin, death, illness etc then you chose from the death side of your choice.

The devil has made his way into every belief system. There are many faults with the very church you attend and I am sure if I interrogated your personal beliefs I would find some that taint God.

As such we need to discern material from immaterial matters, Rom 14:5.

To simplify….Anything that puts you into bondage of any sort, anything that steals life from you is from the enemy…Satanic…Anything!

You must then have a very long list of beliefs you call ''satanic''. Wouldn't it be wiser to call the more serious matters ''satanic''. Those that actually affect your salvation.

Anything that brings you life, health, wealth, freedom, happiness is from God…

Job and Paul would disagree 2 Cor 11:16-33. People sin because it makes then happy and free. Greed and dishonesty can get wealth, wealth can get a good medical aid.

There is no one sin worse than another,

I don't think we read the same bible. In the OT not all sins warranted capital punishment. In the NT Paul singles out a brother in incest 1 Cor 5:1. In Matt 5:28 Jesus calls thoughts a sin, but clarifies that grounds for divorce is actual adultery Matt 5:32.

Sin is sin and sin has levels.

and unbelief is unbelief....There is only one level of unbelief.... One deception is the same as another....If you take it and go into unbelief you have chosen from the Death Cycle.....Satanic teaching

I am not sure what you are trying to say. Belief in Jesus is God given 1 Cor 12:3 to the whomsoever John 3:16 repents / is after His heart Psalm 51:17, James 4:8.

Scripture that speaks to unbelief speaks to those who harden their heart against the Holy Spirit. Not those who ''stop believing'' the unseen is seen. Is that what you are proposing?

 

[KingJ]

The bible does not teach that there will be suffering after one dies and the corrupted body of death turns to dust and spirit returns to the father. That is if one has not been given freely and new born again will as a heart .

Being yoked with Christ our burden is lighter and we have a hope beyond the last breath. Those who say we do suffer after we die simply make the fullness of Christ grace without effect. God does not offer a unknown amount of grace as some teach

If you mean execute capital punishment according to the letter of the law as it is written? What does the letter of the law say below? The father of lies says one will surely not die

Geneisis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

It kills showing we are suffering the first death and final for those not given a new spirit that will never die.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

On the last day under the sun (the temporal time period) the second death .death itself will be cast into the spirit of judgment. It will not arise in the new heavens and earth and condemn it thorough , Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

''extra time''. Seriously?

Garee, is it too much to ask for you to provide a rational defense of your belief? You teach that God is wicked. I gave you the reasons. This post does not deal with mine to you. You are being evasive.

 

[KingJ]

Purgatory which is suffering after one takes thier last breath (dead never to rise "not sleeping" ) simply does despite to the fulness of Christ grace by which we are saved til the end . They deny the grace of God. The last breath is the last breath . Those who have been given a new born again spirit will rise .

How does it deny the grace of God?

 

[KingJ]

I'm getting the impression here that you are still in a Romanist church? If so that's ok....It would just explain your hostility.

I am not. I just don't like it when brothers attack other brothers over absolutely silly matters like this.

I asked you to prove to me that a belief in Purgatory warranted being labelled as a ''satanic doctrine''. Your defense for your position held zero to no water. Imagine we were on a live debate. You would be removed from the debate for your post # 81.

 

[B-A-C]

How does it deny the grace of God?

This is a good question. But it seems that God's grace isn't enough to really fully save you. It only halfway or 3/4th's saves you.
You still need to go through purgatory in order to be "fully" saved.

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I am not. I just don't like it when brothers attack other brothers over absolutely silly matters like this.

I asked you to prove to me that a belief in Purgatory warranted being labelled as a ''satanic doctrine''. Your defense for your position held zero to no water. Imagine we were on a live debate. You would be removed from the debate for your post # 81.

You asked for proof but you cannnot provide scriptures for your side of the argument? I told you above and you threw it out. Ok I see that you arae offended still...I"m backing out of here....I don't want to contribute further to your offense

 

[Admon Mikha'el]

I am not. I just don't like it when brothers attack other brothers over absolutely silly matters like this.

I asked you to prove to me that a belief in Purgatory warranted being labelled as a ''satanic doctrine''. Your defense for your position held zero to no water. Imagine we were on a live debate. You would be removed from the debate for your post # 81.

Well I'll tell you what, my dear friend.....You demand proof then throw it out when its given...You are asked for proof for your stance, but won't provide it. Its obvious that you are way too offended to continue this converstation....So I for one will step back and sit down....

 

[Garee]

How does it deny the grace of God?

We are saved by grace according to the faith of Christ’s labor of love (alone) . Purgatory denies the fullness of Christ grace needed for salvation. Teaching only one received the fullness called the "queen of heaven” She becomes a source of the grace called Holy Mother therefore robbing the glory of God.

".Everyone else accordingly gets a unknown remnant giving them the illusion there is life after ones takes their last breath. It’s what I would call the wondering, wondering doctrine never coming to the end of faith the salvation of one’s soul. Wondering is not a source of faith believing is .

 

[KingJ]

Well I'll tell you what, my dear friend.....You demand proof then throw it out when its given...You are asked for proof for your stance, but won't provide it. Its obvious that you are way too offended to continue this converstation....So I for one will step back and sit down....

I asked for the reasons you call it satanic. You provide reasons that would make any belief that you personally disagree with satanic.

I expected something like: 1. It denies the grace of God, 2. It paints God as a fool, 3. It suggests God is partial, 4. It makes people think they can sin and get away with it.

I have said that I do not want to promote a belief in Purgatory as I do not believe it. That is why I will not post the scriptures used to construct the belief. They are cherry picked.

 

[KingJ]

This is a good question. But it seems that God's grace isn't enough to really fully save you. It only halfway or 3/4th's saves you. You still need to go through purgatory in order to be "fully" saved.

If one takes a glimpse at the idea of Purgatory it does seem like that. ''Jesus is not sufficient'' you must still prove yourself (works) and rely on the living / Catholic church to pray for you (Catholic favoritism).

But deeper thought reveals some rational logic. If you consider how one is saved. It takes a person to realize the error of their ways. To properly grasp that sin is wicked and hurts people. This all leads to a desire of true repentance. The once we have repented we need to watch ourselves. Ensure we do not fall back into a '''love''' of sin. We can think we are ''saved'' but not be saved. Or as with your belief we are ''being saved'''. Either way, time and space are needed for us to prove to both ourselves and God as to where our heart lies with regards to our love or hatred of what is evil. Paul urges us to love what is good and hate what is wicked Rom 12:9, Rom 7:15. We may not be perfect, but hearts intention to hate wicked is real. God sees this in us Jer 17:9 and saves us.

Considering this. A belief in Purgatory is not completely illogical. Many ''seem'' to not have equal and fair opportunity, time and space. Catholics believe that those not fully sold out to sin and a love for it go there. Those utterly sold out to sin, those they would say continue unrepentant in mortal sins, do not go to Purgatory. They have had fair and equal opportunity and chosen to trample Jesus and the gospel underfoot. They have outright shown their hearts intention to God.

The only reason I don't believe in Purgatory is because I believe God does ensure time on earth is sufficient for all except for children under twenty and mentally handicapped. These I believe will get their chance to resist the tempter / sin in the millennium.

So, in a nutshell, it does really not seem like a satanic doctrine / belief someone who hates Jesus would believe.

 

[Br. Bear]

But it seems that God's grace isn't enough to really fully save you. It only halfway or 3/4th's saves you.

 

[Br. Bear]

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels.
Revelation 3:5

 

[Garee]

How does it deny the grace of God?

We are saved by grace according to the faith of Christ’s labor of love (alone) . Purgatory denies the fullness of Christ grace needed for salvation. Teaching only one received the fullness called the "queen of heaven” She becomes a source of the grace called Holy Mother therefore robbing the glory of God.

".Everyone else accordingly gets a unknown remnant giving them the illusion there is life after ones takes their last breath. It’s what I would call the wondering, wondering doctrine never coming to the end of faith the salvation of one’s soul. Wondering is not a source of faith believing is .

I asked for the reasons you call it satanic. You provide reasons that would make any belief that you personally disagree with satanic.

I expected something like: 1. It denies the grace of God, 2. It paints God as a fool, 3. It suggests God is partial, 4. It makes people think they can sin and get away with it.

I have said that I do not want to promote a belief in Purgatory as I do not believe it. That is why I will not post the scriptures used to construct the belief. They are cherry picked.

1. It denies the grace of God,

 

[KingJ]

We are saved by grace according to the faith of Christ’s labor of love (alone) . Purgatory denies the fullness of Christ grace needed for salvation. Teaching only one received the fullness called the "queen of heaven” She becomes a source of the grace called Holy Mother therefore robbing the glory of God.

".Everyone else accordingly gets a unknown remnant giving them the illusion there is life after ones takes their last breath. It’s what I would call the wondering, wondering doctrine never coming to the end of faith the salvation of one’s soul. Wondering is not a source of faith believing is .


1. It denies the grace of God,

Garee, those in the RCC that do teach on Purgatory teach it can be avoided by all. It is seen as extra time for those that still may have attachments and a desire for venial type sins. Extra time speaks to God's mercy.

There is no debate among any RCC member that ONLY Jesus can take one from death to life. From Purgatory to heaven.

As such it only denies the grace of God if you have absolutely no clue what they actually teach. Which is evident in you post.