Is suicide a sin? Do you go to hell for it?

[Christ4Ever]

Sorry bgsda there most certainly is a hell. You did a nice job of tying why death leaves no room for a hell, but scripture does disagree. I'll just leave you however with a couple from our Lord and one from Peter.

Revelation 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

I provided the bold part to show emphasis. The Lord speaks of not only death but also of hell. Separate and not one and the same. If it's just the grave, then it means both the believer and non-believer reside in the same place. Look at my reference to the Cross later to see why not.

There are many scripture verses with the use of hell, which states it as a location. Otherwise, both saved and unsaved would be residing in the same place don't you think? Hummmm.....even in this man's poor logic, there is much that would need to be resolved to disregard what is said in other scripture, in order to make your point completely valid.

2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

You might do better to discuss the occupants of hell, rather then and I quote ".......hell is fake." Such boldness brother When much evidence in His Word points to the contrary. I only gave you two verses. Yet you're welcome to find the others.

Take a look at the story of Abraham & Lazarus, as told by Jesus. If a parable, then it's the only one that I can see where He used actual names! If your position was valid, then I would have to ask why did Jesus make reference to Hell when it's a fictitious place, and use it to motivate through a non existent fear of eternal torment and one of comfort?

I believe that it speaks of two very real places. Also, don't forget what our Lord Jesus said on the Cross to the thief. I'll leave you to look that one up and if possible show where the believer is aware and the non-believer not so much so upon death. Unless you take it to mean that the Lord was saying "you'll be with me, but you won't know it so don't worry about it". :shock: (I wasn't going to add that last part, but that's what happens when you stay up past your bed time! Early day tomorrow.)

C4E
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

 

[bgsda]

Hello to all, i see obviously you guys havent read my last post or studied it. Definetly hard to leave somethimg that was drilled in our heads since childhood. MRoe it really doesnt matter what the majority believes, they are alwaus wrong. Ex: Noahs day, Elijahs day, Jesus day, all the Reformatiom days. What is that verse that says narrow is the way to salvation, broad is the other way.

Dutch sorry but in my last post eberything was Biblical. Nothing from me. Question Does mot God want to do away with sin forever? Then why will he leave people, in this fable called hell, burning for eternity. That means sin will live forever. Totally makes nonsense. Everyone can believe in this manmade doctrine but not me. Remeber in Romans the wages of sin is death, not torment and live forever. DEAD means gone. Look it up.

CHRIST4EVER please we have to study to show ourselves approved. Dont be deceived. Why does the Bible say in Acts 2 that David has not ascended to heaven? Are u or anyone here more holier than David? Please study it dont base your salvation on what other people think. Read the Bible and find out. Always good to start at the beggining to see how we were made.
?

 

[bgsda]

Hello to all, i see obviously you guys havent read my last post or studied it. Definetly hard to leave somethimg that was drilled in our heads since childhood. MRoe it really doesnt matter what the majority believes, they are alwaus wrong. Ex: Noahs day, Elijahs day, Jesus day, all the Reformatiom days. What is that verse that says narrow is the way to salvation, broad is the other way.

Dutch sorry but in my last post eberything was Biblical. Nothing from me. Question Does mot God want to do away with sin forever? Then why will he leave people, in this fable called hell, burning for eternity. That means sin will live forever. Totally makes nonsense. Everyone can believe in this manmade doctrine but not me. Remeber in Romans the wages of sin is death, not torment and live forever. DEAD means gone. Look it up.

CHRIST4EVER please we have to study to show ourselves approved. Dont be deceived. Why does the Bible say in that David has not ascended to heaven? Are u or anyone here more holier than David? Please study it dont base your salvation on what other people think. Read the Bible and find out. Always good to start at the beggining to see how we were made.
?

 

[DutchChristian]

Hello to all, i see obviously you guys havent read my last post or studied it. Definetly hard to leave somethimg that was drilled in our heads since childhood. MRoe it really doesnt matter what the majority believes, they are alwaus wrong. Ex: Noahs day, Elijahs day, Jesus day, all the Reformatiom days. What is that verse that says narrow is the way to salvation, broad is the other way.

Dutch sorry but in my last post eberything was Biblical. Nothing from me. Question Does mot God want to do away with sin forever? Then why will he leave people, in this fable called hell, burning for eternity. That means sin will live forever. Totally makes nonsense. Everyone can believe in this manmade doctrine but not me. Remeber in Romans the wages of sin is death, not torment and live forever. DEAD means gone. Look it up.

CHRIST4EVER please we have to study to show ourselves approved. Dont be deceived. Why does the Bible say in Acts 2 that David has not ascended to heaven? Are u or anyone here more holier than David? Please study it dont base your salvation on what other people think. Read the Bible and find out. Always good to start at the beggining to see how we were made.
?

you do not listen to correction.. and i am not the only one correcting you, what must happen before you will receive any correction?

are your ears so dull and full of dirt so as that you are not hearing?

The LORD correct you! May He Have Mercy on you and get the dirt out of your hearing so that you will receive and understand and hear!

PS are you following the Shepherds Chapel and "pastor" Arnold Murray perhaps? Please know that he is a false teacher!

BEWARE! as you are in error!

again i say:

BEWARE!

you are in rebellion against the Word of GOD!

Flee from your error and depart from your defending of a lie! you must Repent!

 

[revbrad]

Nowhere in all of Gods book does the "spirit" have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the "breath of life" and nothing more.




I can go on and on simply put the dead know nothing when they die Eccl 9:5,6,10)/ Psalm 115:17/ Job 14:12,21. JESUS called death a "sleep" why? John 11:11-14 The dead will sleep until the great day of the Lord at the end of the world. In death humans are totally unconcious with no activity or knowledge of any kind=sleep.

[h=3]Luke 16:22-24[/h]
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Hello to all, i see obviously you guys havent read my last post or studied it. Definetly hard to leave somethimg that was drilled in our heads since childhood. MRoe it really doesnt matter what the majority believes, they are alwaus wrong. Ex: Noahs day, Elijahs day, Jesus day, all the Reformatiom days. What is that verse that says narrow is the way to salvation, broad is the other way.

Dutch sorry but in my last post eberything was Biblical. Nothing from me. Question Does mot God want to do away with sin forever? Then why will he leave people, in this fable called hell, burning for eternity. That means sin will live forever. Totally makes nonsense. Everyone can believe in this manmade doctrine but not me. Remeber in Romans the wages of sin is death, not torment and live forever. DEAD means gone. Look it up.

CHRIST4EVER please we have to study to show ourselves approved. Dont be deceived. Why does the Bible say in Acts 2 that David has not ascended to heaven? Are u or anyone here more holier than David? Please study it dont base your salvation on what other people think. Read the Bible and find out. Always good to start at the beggining to see how we were made.
?

Actually I did read your entire post and went to Scripture to read all the verses mentioned by you. Did you fail to see in my reply post to yours where I said "You did a nice job of tying why death leaves no room for a hell,....."? :thumbs_up By the way.........you couldn't have used brothers instead of "guys"? :wink:

Curious my brother in Christ. Where in what I posted came from what others have told me? Appreciate your concern. However, I do take a little umbrage with your comment on "Don't base your salvation on what other people think." If you're implying because I believe in the existence of a hell, that my salvation is now in question? I feel for the person whose "I"s or "T"s are not dotted or crossed in not knowing all of scripture inside and out.

If you've read my bio you'll see my testimony, and whether you believe it or not, it is one thing that is solely mine to have, hold, cherish and tell others of (Copy cats are okay. In fact if in truth, I pray there are many.). So please brother, take care in words used when discussions on Scripture meet head on in posting, that it not extrapolate towards questioning ones salvation unless that subject is the one being discussed. I'm sure your intent was not to question my salvation, but the implication was there, and that is enough, because in truth neither you nor I can see into each others hearts in order to know the truth of our belief, nor do we have access to the Book of Life either.

Now with that being said (Proverbs 27:17)

Back to the subject at hand

Yes I've read Acts 2 and have now reread it.

Now Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

As you know Christ Jesus is being spoken of here. Keep in mind that Christ Jesus had not yet paid the ultimate price and so David was still subject to hell and death.

Acts 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

David was talking about the Christ here. Many believe that the 3 days Jesus remained in the crypt that it was at this time that Gospel was preached to those in Hell. That however is another subject

Acts 2:26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:

If then as you stated before that knowledge and all else ceases upon death, then pardon me, but if this is so, how would David have hope in rest? That is assuming that you use rest as death? or is the Hope spoken of here as God/Jesus?

The usage of David by Peter is purposeful, because those listeners were Jews so were aware of the lineage of the Messiah. Now concerning Acts 2:34, this does not preclude the existence of hell either. Keep in mind what our Lord said to the thief on the Cross, which I mentioned in my previous post, (Which you so apply avoided addressing in this post ) "Paradise" not Heaven. Us not yet being glorified is it possible that we will await "That Day" there? While the unbeliever resides somewhere else.......

Have I missed any of the pertinent verses associated with the subject currently under discussion in Acts 2?

Maybe, I'm a bit simple in my reading or that the Holy Spirit has yet to reveal with total understanding that has me running around the house like a loon (Sometimes I do that when the Holy Spirit has opened my eyes to a Scriptural truth, which of cause has my wife believing I am a loon.) but so far though you have made a lucid point, it still doesn't do away with other scripture supporting hell.

YBIC
C4E
Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed [are] they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Romans 11:32 For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

I must have a distorted view of certain words like mercy and all.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

I love this story,perhaps someone can tell me what the beggar did right and the rich man did wrong.

I seriously doubt the beggar was able to go to the temple and get his sins remitted through the animal sacrifice as prescribed by Moses.
Can anyone tell me what"I desire mercy and not sacrifice" mean?
I'm sure this rich man could perform all the right sacrifices.

Notice that his tongue seems to be connected to his torment.
Even in his torment he wants Lazarus beneath him,to serve him.

 

[revbrad]

Romans 11:32 For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

I must have a distorted view of certain words like mercy and all.



I love this story,perhaps someone can tell me what the beggar did right and the rich man did wrong.

I seriously doubt the beggar was able to go to the temple and get his sins remitted through the animal sacrifice as prescribed by Moses.
Can anyone tell me what"I desire mercy and not sacrifice" mean?
I'm sure this rich man could perform all the right sacrifices.

Notice that his tongue seems to be connected to his torment.
Even in his torment he wants Lazarus beneath him,to serve him.

We do not know who did what right or wrong, we are not told. We do know we serve a just God.

I may be a little thick but I do not understand what you are saying/asking. Could you please clarify? (I'm sorry if I am missing something obvious.)

 

[bgsda]

Revbrad that parable on Lazarus and Abraham was only a parable thats it. To show the Jews their wrong. I know im not going to Abrahams bosom when I die or will not want too. How about you?

Christ4ever simply put on the thief on the cross, did Christ ascend to paradise that day? NO. Many scholars believe the comma was placed in the wrong plac, original translation there is no comma. Read it like this "I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise". Its written like this in most of our Bibles " I tell you , today you will be with me in paradise". Big difference right. Cant make a doctrine out of this. Remember Christ did not go to heaben till like 40days right.

Dutch Christian i dont even know who that guy is u mentioned, but no i do not swing the whole other way either. I do not believe everyone is going to heaven , like many believe once saved always saved (thats a whole another topic).

 

[bgsda]

Canoot make a doctrine out of a parable of Lazarus ans Abraham, i know im not going to Abrahams bosom when i die, are you guys?

Please brothers study this subject thoroughly from the beginning and the Holy Spirit will open yoir eyes to truth, but u habe to come to Him as a child. Leave all former thinking and preconceived ideas behind. Reread my reply i started at Genesis. And if there is any questions let me know.

Oh the thief on the cross. Many scholars believe that this was a grammatical error, commas are not used in the original Greek writings. Read this "i tell you this today, you will be with me in Paradise" this is the correct way. This is the way seen in our Bibles "i tell you this, today you will be with me in Paradise". Please dont make a doctrine out of this also.

The dead die and wait in their graves till Jesus comes back. Its called a sleep for a reason John 11. The dead know nothing Eccl. 9:5,6. How can one go to heaven or hell if hasnt given anyone their reward yet Rev. 22:12/ John 5:28,29

 

[revbrad]

Here's the thing....

If I'm wrong about hell, what do I lose?
If I'm right, it will keep me more vigilant.
If I just go to sleep, I'll wake up happy.
If I rot, I won't know it anyway.

Bottom line: I intend to serve Christ to the best of my ability and His help and guidance. He can then reward me or whatever as He sees fit.

 

[bgsda]

Revbrad your wrong. What does it say in Gal. "If snyone preaches any other gospel....". And yes for what is happening now, with spiritualism, and what is coming in the future you should be worried.

Many will be deceived soon with a fake christ that is coming soon Matt24-25, will deceive many INCLuDIMG tthe elect. Yes there will be many that believe their loved ones in heaven are going to be able to talk with them and deceive them into lies. Do not be deceived.

Also Rev. 14:8-10 Drinking of the wine(false doctrine) found all over in Proverbs will lead to the wrath of God. Ask millions of the protestants that died a martyrs death if its important to keep sound doctrine. Be careful my brother. Study it thru.

 

[Chad]

Hi Chad, to the first question about hell, I dont know why it comes up so much. But i know to better understand this hell topic we need to find out the state of the dead and what happens when we die. Itll bring yoir answer out. It starts in Gen 2:7. We are made of dust and breath of life(spirit).

This is intellectually dishonest. You don't know why "hell" comes up so much in the Word of GOD but you claim there is no hell.

That's a very unprofound teaching.

Ask millions of the protestants that died a martyrs death if its important to keep sound doctrine. Be careful my brother.

I do not talk to dead people, but can you enlighten me? Seriously brother, let's stop and study for real. Don't just say "study", do it for yourself.

Hell is real, the parables you mentioned are real for a purpose and GOD gave them to us in the Word for an obvious reason. They're not past fables but
examples of what to do and not do and what it results in.

 

[revbrad]

Revbrad your wrong. What does it say in Gal. "If snyone preaches any other gospel....". And yes for what is happening now, with spiritualism, and what is coming in the future you should be worried.

Many will be deceived soon with a fake christ that is coming soon Matt24-25, will deceive many INCLuDIMG tthe elect. Yes there will be many that believe their loved ones in heaven are going to be able to talk with them and deceive them into lies. Do not be deceived.

Also Rev. 14:8-10 Drinking of the wine(false doctrine) found all over in Proverbs will lead to the wrath of God. Ask millions of the protestants that died a martyrs death if its important to keep sound doctrine. Be careful my brother. Study it thru.

bgsda..I was actually just trying to get some comments....(probably shouldn't do tha)....I do not feel that way. I am fully pursuaded about what I believe

It is good to see that you have the concern to warn

Thank You

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

This is from a Greek Mythology site:

HAIDES (Aides, Aidoneus, or Hades) was the King of the Underworld, the god of death and the dead. He presided over funeral rites and defended the right of the dead to due burial. Haides was also the god of the hidden wealth of the earth, from the fertile soil with nourished the seed-grain, to the mined wealth of gold, silver and other metals.

The word Hell is English for the Greek word Hades.
Jesus spoke of either Sheol or Gehenna which the King James translated Hell.

Not only is it Greek Mythology but is actually a person and not a place.
It would take less than an hour to give this some research and see if it is mythology.

Gehenna or the valley of Ben Hinnom is where the Jews would burn their children in fire as an offering to the
Pagan God Molech.

Jeremiah 32:35 They have built pagan shrines to Baal in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, and there they sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing. What an incredible evil, causing Judah to sin so greatly!

These Jews could only cause temporary suffering to their children which God never even considered doing.
Are we sure we are not mixing Greek Mythology with a resurrected Saviour?

 

[Chad]

Not only is it Greek Mythology but is actually a person and not a place.
It would take less than an hour to give this some research and see if it is mythology.

What Scripture can you back this up with? So hell is "person"? This is extremely unbelievable that your translating from a Greek mythology website.

Here's my research:

Is hell real? Is hell eternal?
Are there different degrees of punishment in hell? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
https://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell
What Kind of God Would Condemn People to Eternal Torment? - Answers in Genesis

If you don't believe in hell but humbly believe in proper studies, research and honesty then please do read the articles.

 

[revbrad]

God is not a cruel God. There is no such thing as hell. Made up by the satan the dexeiver

What is this then?....................

Matthew 25
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

If you don't believe in hell but humbly believe in proper studies, research and honesty then please do read the articles.

I have been to the site you refer to and they don't try to distinguish the truth as found in scripture.
The site starts off with this statement:

Yes, there are different degrees of punishment in hell.

I can't find any scriptural evidence for that.

No where do they mention the sea and how or why there are dead in them.
I would expect any expert on the afterlife to understand how the sea ties in.
They don't mention that hell(actually Sheol)gives up it's dead,and then is cast into the lake of fire.

A few translations use the word hell which is simply English for Hades.
Most translations use the term Hades which can't be correct because Hades was a god from Greek mythology.
Below are two translations that use the original Hebrew terms.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
Revelation 20:13 And the Sea yielded the dead which were in it, and Death and Sheol yielded the dead which were with them, and they were judged, one by one, according to their works.

New Living Translation:
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up its dead, and death and the grave gave up their dead. And all were judged according to their deeds.

What Scripture can you back this up with? So hell is "person"? This is extremely unbelievable that your translating from a Greek mythology website.

If you want me to back-up information about Sheol,Gehenna,the sea and the lake of fire then we would use the Bible but since Hades is a god of Greek Mythology then I would have to go to a Greek Mythology site to learn anything about Hades.There is much stories and information about Hades there.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

The fire is everlasting not the torture.


Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Jeremiah 32:35 They have built pagan shrines to Baal in the valley of Ben-Hinnom, and there they sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech. I have never commanded such a horrible deed; it never even crossed my mind to command such a thing. What an incredible evil, causing Judah to sin so greatly!




The fire of God is eternal:
Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Those two cities are not still burning,so I think this shows that God himself is the eternal fire.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 and the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Revbrad that parable on Lazarus and Abraham was only a parable thats it. To show the Jews their wrong. I know im not going to Abrahams bosom when I die or will not want too. How about you?

Christ4ever simply put on the thief on the cross, did Christ ascend to paradise that day? NO. Many scholars believe the comma was placed in the wrong plac, original translation there is no comma. Read it like this "I tell you today, you will be with me in paradise". Its written like this in most of our Bibles " I tell you , today you will be with me in paradise". Big difference right. Cant make a doctrine out of this. Remember Christ did not go to heaben till like 40days right.

Dutch Christian i dont even know who that guy is u mentioned, but no i do not swing the whole other way either. I do not believe everyone is going to heaven , like many believe once saved always saved (thats a whole another topic).

LOL.......No love my brother?

In all honesty I was insulted, but on second thought, so was Christ. Nice to be placed in the same boat. Thank-you.


You point on ascended to paradise would be valid, if paradise is heaven. Which is a question I posed to you, but......you did not answer. Which would leave my position by default in this part of the discussion the more valid one. :thumbs_up

This being the case, ascension would not have been necessary for the Lord to make His appearance there.

You are correct that the different Bible Translations almost exclusively have the comma prior to today, with some exceptions where there is no comma at all. Even the New Oxford Annotated Bible an Ecumenical Study Bible reflects this. So, which scholars profess to substantiate your position? Each Bible in circulation also has scholars who have put their names to the particular translation from different eras. Which Bible per chance do you use that does not have the comma placed like most others?

A little of my history: My first language is Spanish, so I understand the difficulties in attempting to translate from one language to another. Complete understanding of both is needed if one wants to be exact. In many cases, this is not possible, because words and sentence structure may not be compatible to provide a clear understanding of what is being communicated in the one language.

That being said are you familiar with the Greek that you might provide us expert testimony? I know I am not. Maybe someone else familiar with Greek who is reading this thread and sees this post might provide assistance. Acknowledging that the Greek used today is not the Greek used in 60 AD. Still this particular insight would be helpful.

Now back to Hell so to speak :shock:

Question: Assuming your position is correct and hell is a contrivance (fake) then by whom and to what end?

This also leads to the question if eternal punishment is to occur (Unless this too is misrepresented.). Where will the individual who is receive the punishment reside?
Keeping in mind that "Eternal" and "Everlasting" do mean "Eternal" and "Everlasting"

C4E

Ephesians 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

Through the workings of Christ, we are being built for the habitation of God's Spirit. What an honour to be so used by the glorious King of all creation!

 

[bgsda]

Hello all. Revbrad hell i say and believe is fake bevause simply the dead, as I showed thru Scriptures, when we die we simply sleep as Christ puts it and many others. If you have a Concordance check out the word Sleep. Then as you put in Matt 25: 31-41 we await His coming where ahe would seperate the Good and Bad. The Good simply would habe the benefit of living in the prescence of God Almighty. The Bad will in what is valled the Second death in Rev. 20 I believe where Satan will be burned as well.

No not forever they will eventually die and become stubble. Malachi 4.