Jesus narrowed down His coming to….

[StewardoftheMystery]

But therein is your error because you applied the trump of the angel when that is the Lord's voice speaking. There are trumps to be sounded, for sure, but reread that reference as this is the Lord that speaks from Heaven and not by any archangel, let alone any angel sounding a trump. This is about how His voice is.

Revelation 20:1-6 has this "first resurrection" occurring AFTER the defeat of the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem and Satan is already in the pit for a thousand years..

If you compare Zachariah 14:1-5 that the Lord is coming back with His saints ( the pre great tribulation raptured saints ) to do battle with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem as His feet touched down on the Mount of Olives, then the Lord is already on earth BEFORE He resurrects those saints in Revelation 20:1-6. Jesus is not meeting those saints as they that be Christ's at His coming, in the air at all because He is already on earth having defeated the world's armies and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years.

AND verse 5 is key to understanding what John meant by first resurrection because obviously to me, thanks to the Lord, it is not THE first resurrection since the rapture was before the great tribulation, BUT it is THE resurrection that is to happen FIRST BEFORE the rest of the dead are resurrected later on. That is all it is meant to infer by the wording of first resurrection for why the significance of Revelation 20:5 should be applied.

Indeed, it explains the conundrum of who the saints were that Jesus was coming back with in Zechariah 14:1-5 in touching down on the Mount of Olives to do battle with the world's armies marching unto Jerusalem and yet after having defeated them and Satan is in the pit for a thousand years as to whom He was resurrecting after that which are the left behind saints and new believers that have died, going into the bed of and thru the great tribulation.

So the raptured saints occurs before the great tribulation as Christ the firstfruits while they that be Christ at His coming, are not meeting Him in the air but on earth because Jesus has defeated the world's armies & Satan is in the pit. See?

It’s both. Both events confirm the timing….

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”​

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

You are way off course on that one.
That is not talking about the great commission, but the very last days, and the resurrection of God’s saints.

This resurgence ain't gonna happen without the Great Commission that brings the gospel to them. It's not spontaneous, and it doesn't pop out of a vacuum. God uses His people to accomplish His purposes. As I said earlier, in the end the nation of Israel will finally accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and that shall be done through the gentile church.

 

[GodB4Us]

That prophecy concerning the first coming of Messiah and the 70 weeks of Daniel has already been fulfilled. So that as proof of a future 7 year trib is a big fail

You are not showing how it was fulfilled when the sacrifices and the oblation had ceased in the midst of that week. If you are going by a Preterist's point of view here, then you are only reading the scripture with those eyeglasses.

That time began in 70 ad. When the AOD was set up per Daniel 12:11.

There is no need for a third temple to be built, that also is false doctrine.

They are talking about it in Israel now.

I understand that you have a theological viewpoint on the subject but you are not really addressing what you had asked me to share for why I believe in the scriptures. So please avoid the kneejerk reaction by going to your presentation when you had asked me to provide scripture for why I believe.

I am fully aware that there was a desecration at the second Temple but that event did not hit all the high marks of the prophetic event like the peace treaty and how the sacrifices and the oblation ceased in the midst of that week. See?

 

[GodB4Us]

It’s both. Both events confirm the timing….

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”​

Again, it is the Lord's voice that is being described here and not referring to other scriptures where angels were sounding the trumps.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

in the end the nation of Israel will finally accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and that shall be done through the gentile church.

Actually the words of God say it shall be done by the Spirit of God.

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Again, it is the Lord's voice that is being described here and not referring to other scriptures where angels were sounding the trumps.

They all confirm the same last day event, at the last Trump.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

You are ignoring anything that goes against what you been taught by other carnally minded men.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

You are not showing how it was fulfilled when the sacrifices and the oblation had ceased in the midst of that week.

That prophecy you quoted has nothing whatsoever to do with a 7 year tribulation or peace treaty, that is the doctrine of carnally minded men who have no idea what it is they are talking about.

I know because I have heard this false doctrine before. The burden of proof is on you to show a make believe “7 year tribulation” period by the words of God and you cannot, because it is not there.

They are talking about it in Israel now.

It does not matter what they are talking about, that is not proving your doctrine by the words of God.

So please avoid the kneejerk reaction by going to your presentation when you had asked me to provide scripture for why I believe.

Providing scripture that has nothing to do with a make believe 7 year tribulation and make believe rapture theory is not proof.

I am fully aware that there was a desecration at the second Temple but that event did not hit all the high marks of the prophetic event like the peace treaty

What peace treaty? That is your misunderstanding of the 70 weeks of Daniel prophecy, which had to do with the first coming of Messiah the Prince, and the New Covenant.

and how the sacrifices and the oblation ceased in the midst of that week. See?

Hello! Jesus was crucified in the middle of the final week of Daniels prophecy. You have been leavened by the false doctrines of carnally minded men.

You need to dump and reboot.

 

[GodB4Us]

They all confirm the same last day event, at the last Trump.

1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:​

You are ignoring anything that goes against what you been taught by other carnally minded men.

Your connecting 1 Corinthians 15:52 with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is understandable but you should reconsider because the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is referring to the last trump of the 100 trumps at the Feast of the Tabernacle which happens every year for why we are always to be ready to go.

The Last Trump <---- Click on link to read about it in how they address that scripture misapplied by those who believe in mid tribulation and post tribulation rapture event. I searched for those who have done work on it to avoid a long post.

And I still maintain that it is the Lord's own voice being described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and not an actual trumpet that an angel is going to blow on.

Only God can minister in this discussion. I acknowledge my lack of ability to convince any one. May God cause the increase. Do give the Father the credit in Jesus's name when you see the truth finally and not give me any credit.

 

[GodB4Us]

That prophecy you quoted has nothing whatsoever to do with a 7 year tribulation or peace treaty, that is the doctrine of carnally minded men who have no idea what it is they are talking about.

I know because I have heard this false doctrine before. The burden of proof is on you to show a make believe “7 year tribulation” period by the words of God and you cannot, because it is not there.

It does not matter what they are talking about, that is not proving your doctrine by the words of God.

Providing scripture that has nothing to do with a make believe 7 year tribulation and make believe rapture theory is not proof.

What peace treaty? That is your misunderstanding of the 70 weeks of Daniel prophecy, which had to do with the first coming of Messiah the Prince, and the New Covenant.

Hello! Jesus was crucified in the middle of the final week of Daniels prophecy. You have been leavened by the false doctrines of carnally minded men.

You need to dump and reboot.

You need to show why you believe that 70th week was about Him being crucified in the middle of that last week when He made no announcement of a treaty with Israel in which halfway through it, His sacrifice ended the sacrifices and oblation to cease when the Jews were still continuing it after His crucifixion.

I understand your application now but the sacrifices did not cease nor the oblation after His crucifixion BUT when that son of perdition reveals himself halfway through that great tribulation, by stepping into the Holy of Holies in declaring himself to be God, then war will break out on the Jews for how and why the sacrifices in that third Temple will cease along with the oblation as they will be running for their lives. See?

At the end of the great tribulation, the world's armies will be marching against Jerusalem for why Jesus will come back as the King of kings, touching down on Mount of Olives for how that battle at Armeggedon comes about.

As it is, currently, the Jews found out that the third Temple can be built as some Christians believed as prophesied because the outer court belongs to the Gentiles ; hence the Dome of the Rock does not need to be removed. Archeological finds has confirmed this.

They have everything made for the inside of the Temple, they even have the red heifers for the sacrifices, and now are making the stones for the construction of the third Temple so when that command goes out that they can build that third Temple, it will happen quickly, but once that command is given is the beginning of the 7 year great tribulation as this peace treaty will come about in giving peace to Israel by allowing them to build that third Temple. This will happen after the rapture and after when a third of the earth gets burned up which is the western hemisphere for why USA is that fallen Babylon in Revelation 18:1-24. With USA out of the way, Israel will be tempted to use nukes on all her enemies and so the world will need to convince the Jews that they will have peace at last by allowing them to rebuild that Third Temple.

I see this by the grace of God and His help, and so He will have to do the same for you.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Your connecting 1 Corinthians 15:52 with 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is understandable but you should reconsider because the last trump in 1 Corinthians 15:52 is referring to the last trump of the 100 trumps at the Feast of the Tabernacle which happens every year for why we are always to be ready to go.

The Last Trump <---- Click on link to read about it in how they address that scripture misapplied by those who believe in mid tribulation and post tribulation rapture event. I searched for those who have done work on it to avoid a long post.

And I still maintain that it is the Lord's own voice being described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 and not an actual trumpet that an angel is going to blow on.

Only God can minister in this discussion. I acknowledge my lack of ability to convince any one. May God cause the increase. Do give the Father the credit in Jesus's name when you see the truth finally and not give me any credit.

The Lord descending, the voice, the last Trump, and the dead rising first, all confirm the timing of the resurrection at “the last day.”

As I showed in that study I posted THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST. And Jesus said that does not happen until the LAST DAY.

If you say the living are raptured first, before the dead, you are a liar. If you say there is a rapture of the dead and living before the last day you are also a liar.

If you say God’s words are not true, then you are liar.

In that study I showed how all the scriptures agree and point to the same resurrection event of the dead and living on the last day.

If you want to believe the false doctrines of men, and reject the testimony of God, that is on you.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

You need to show why you believe that 70th week was about Him being crucified in the middle of that last week when He made no announcement of a treaty with Israel in which halfway through it, His sacrifice ended the sacrifices and oblation to cease when the Jews were still continuing it after His crucifixion.

I understand your application now but the sacrifices did not cease nor the oblation after His crucifixion BUT when that son of perdition reveals himself halfway through that great tribulation, by stepping into the Holy of Holies in declaring himself to be God, then war will break out on the Jews for how and why the sacrifices in that third Temple will cease along with the oblation as they will be running for their lives. See?

At the end of the great tribulation, the world's armies will be marching against Jerusalem for why Jesus will come back as the King of kings, touching down on Mount of Olives for how that battle at Armeggedon comes about.

As it is, currently, the Jews found out that the third Temple can be built as some Christians believed as prophesied because the outer court belongs to the Gentiles ; hence the Dome of the Rock does not need to be removed. Archeological finds has confirmed this.

They have everything made for the inside of the Temple, they even have the red heifers for the sacrifices, and now are making the stones for the construction of the third Temple so when that command goes out that they can build that third Temple, it will happen quickly, but once that command is given is the beginning of the 7 year great tribulation as this peace treaty will come about in giving peace to Israel by allowing them to build that third Temple. This will happen after the rapture and after when a third of the earth gets burned up which is the western hemisphere for why USA is that fallen Babylon in Revelation 18:1-24. With USA out of the way, Israel will be tempted to use nukes on all her enemies and so the world will need to convince the Jews that they will have peace at last by allowing them to rebuild that Third Temple.

I see this by the grace of God and His help, and so He will have to do the same for you.

That 70 week prophecy is about the first coming of Messiah.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.”

This prophecy has nothing to do with end time prophecy! Zero

 

[GodB4Us]

The Lord descending, the voice, the last Trump, and the dead rising first, all confirm the timing of the resurrection at “the last day.”

As I showed in that study I posted THE DEAD IN CHRIST RISE FIRST. And Jesus said that does not happen until the LAST DAY.

If you say the living are raptured first, before the dead, you are a liar. If you say there is a rapture of the dead and living before the last day you are also a liar.

If you say God’s words are not true, then you are liar.

In that study I showed how all the scriptures agree and point to the same resurrection event of the dead and living on the last day.

If you want to believe the false doctrines of men, and reject the testimony of God, that is on you.

Well, it seems to be beneath you to start name calling rather than just addressing the topic. So I apologize for bringing the worst out of you. I shall stop discussing the topic with you then. Have a good day anyway, brother.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Actually the words of God say it shall be done by the Spirit of God.

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

The spirit of grace moves with God's people. Since Jews rejected Jesus, God raises His warriors from the byways and the highways to accomplish his goal. God poured out His spirit at Pentecost and the church was born (Acts 2:17), that's the early rain; but in the end, there will also be a latter rain. And when is that? When the gospel is preached to the whole world, then the end will come (Matt. 24:14).

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Well, it seems to be beneath you to start name calling rather than just addressing the topic. So I apologize for bringing the worst out of you. I shall stop discussing the topic with you then. Have a good day anyway, brother.

It’s not the worst in me to be zealous for the Truth. I showed you by the words of God that the dead in Christ rise first, and Jesus plainly said that does not happen until the last day.

If you were more zealous for the Truth you would not be spreading false doctrines in the name of the Lord. But now you have been warned, and are no longer ignorant of the Truth.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

The spirit of grace moves with God's people. Since Jews rejected Jesus, God raises His warriors from the byways and the highways to accomplish his goal. God poured out His spirit at Pentecost and the church was born (Acts 2:17), that's the early rain; but in the end, there will also be a latter rain. And when is that? When the gospel is preached to the whole world, then the end will come (Matt. 24:14).

God can pour out His Spirit on whomsoever He desires, he does not need man’s help to do that. The body of Christ starting long before the Gentiles were ever grafted into the good Olive tree, Christ is the root and in the offspring of David.

And you are late for the party, the gospel has been preached in Israel, and all over the world for hundreds of years. All the more reason to watch!

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

God can pour out His Spirit on whomsoever He desires, he does not need man’s help to do that. The body of Christ starting long before the Gentiles were ever grafted into the good Olive tree, Christ is the root and in the offspring of David.

And you are late for the party, the gospel has been preached in Israel, and all over the world for hundreds of years. All the more reason to watch!

Nope, just because one missionary had ever set foot in a foreign land doesn't mean the Great Commission is finished in this nation. There're always these elite "gatekeepers" that suppress the truth through censorship, starting with the high priests arresting Peter and John for preaching the gospel. That is nothing new. It had not been accessible to a large portion of the global population such like some muslim groups until recent decades.

 

[GodB4Us]

It’s not the worst in me to be zealous for the Truth. I showed you by the words of God that the dead in Christ rise first, and Jesus plainly said that does not happen until the last day.

If you were more zealous for the Truth you would not be spreading false doctrines in the name of the Lord. But now you have been warned, and are no longer ignorant of the Truth.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I believe in the pre great tribulation rapture because that is what Jesus has been warning believers about in being ready or else over and over again that if they are not found abiding in Him, but in unrepentant iniquity still thus defiling the temple of God, they will be denied by Him and left behind to die but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven awaiting for their resurrection as vessels unto dishonor in His House; vessels of wood & earth, to serve the King of kings on earth. Jesus will be judging His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture for why He is warning the 5 of the 7 churches in Revelation as well as exhorting the 2 out of 7 churches in Revelation to be ready or else. Jesus will excommunicate those members of the body of Christ not found abiding in Him but He will finish His work in those that get left behind for that is our confidence in Him as well as His promise to lose nothing of all the Father has given Him, even those that have gone astray. Matthew 18:10-17 & John 6:37-40 KJV

AND it is very possible for saved believers to love their lives more on earth than to leave when the Bridegroom comes, which if it was at the end of the great tribulation, there is no such temptation when they are on the run hiding from those that seek to kill them, but it would be a temptation to those living in the here and now BEFORE the great tribulation for why it would be a snare to saved believers. Luke 21:33-36 KJV & Luke 14:15-35 KJV & Luke 17:26-37 KJV

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

Nope, just because one missionary had ever set foot in a foreign land doesn't mean the Great Commission is finished in this nation. There're always these elite "gatekeepers" that suppress the truth through censorship, starting with the high priests arresting Peter and John for preaching the gospel. That is nothing new. It had not been accessible to a large portion of the global population such like some muslim groups until recent decades.

Jesus said the gospel would be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations. He did not say they would all accept it, or that it would take hold in every place it had been preached. The 7 churches in the Revelation used to be in what is now known as Turkey, which is now a majority Muslim nation.

The U.S. used to have a Christian majority, now look at it, it also is falling away from the faith.

 

[StewardoftheMystery]

2 Timothy 2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Paul also said, should I come to you in the spirit of meekness, or with the rod? Sometimes those who refuse correction need the rod when kindness has failed.

I believe in the pre great tribulation rapture

That is because you have been deceived by the false doctrines of other carnally minded men.

because that is what Jesus has been warning believers about

Nowhere in scripture is Jesus warning believers about a pre great tribulation rapture. =false doctrine

in being ready or else over and over again that if they are not found abiding in Him,

Abiding in Christ is abiding in His words, which are Truth. Speaking false doctrine is not abiding in Him.

but in unrepentant iniquity still thus defiling the temple of God, they will be denied by Him and left behind to die but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven awaiting for their resurrection as vessels unto dishonor in His House;

Wow, it just gets more bazaar. Where do you get this stuff from? Don’t you know unrighteousness shall not inherit the Kingdom?

Jesus will be judging His House first at the pre great tribulation rapture

As I showed by the words of God earlier, both the resurrection and the judgment of God’s saints happens at the last day, not before.

for why He is warning the 5 of the 7 churches in Revelation as well as exhorting the 2 out of 7 churches in Revelation to be ready or else.

Those 7 churches in the Revelation were actual literal churches, which used to be in what is now known as Turkey. They did not listen to Jesus, now they are gone.

Jesus will excommunicate those members of the body of Christ not found abiding in Him but He will finish His work in those that get left behind for that is our confidence in Him

Those who do not abide in Him are cut off, wither and die, then they are burned, as Jesus said

AND it is very possible for saved believers to love their lives more on earth

Jesus said those who love their lives in this world , shall lose their lives.

You need to start believing in the words of Jesus and stop listening to the false doctrines of men.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

Jesus said the gospel would be preached in all the world as a witness to all nations. He did not say they would all accept it, or that it would take hold in every place it had been preached. The 7 churches in the Revelation used to be in what is now known as Turkey, which is now a majority Muslim nation.

The U.S. used to have a Christian majority, now look at it, it also is falling away from the faith.

As I said, not all the world has received the gospel, the real, unadulterated Jesus instead of a cult with a Christian label. That had never been accessible to "all" nations until recent decades. Besides, a lot of nations didn't even exist until the end of WWII, Israel itself became a nation in 1948, or you can say that its real independence was marked by the victory of the six-day war in 1967.