Just who are the ELECT? (The Truth will surprise you)

[Rhema]

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.​

(Mark 13:24-27 KJV)

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

(Matthew 13:40-43 KJV)

"Elect" is the common gloss used in English for the Greek word ἐκλεκτός. But that's not a "special" word in Greek. It just means the things that are "selected."

LINK to the Liddell Scott Greek Lexicon for ἐκλεκτός

A.picked out, select,​

As one can see from the above parallel passages. The ones selected to be gathered by the angels are those who do iniquity. It's pretty obvious to anyone who can read plain Greek, or even plain English. "His Elect" are the ones He selected to be gathered by the angels and be cast into a furnace of fire.

(But I can feel the indignation rising.)

@Brightfame52 might start posting that Christ died for the Elect. To which I can readily agree:

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.​

(Romans 5:6 KJV)​

The "Elect" are "the ungodly," those who "do iniquity" and shall disappear at the end of the world, when removed by the angels.



But... But... But... (first, go read through the above scripture passages again.)

But... But the Elect are those chosen to go to heaven !!! No? (Again, go read through the above scripture passages again.)

Over the Two Millennia, the Christian Church has created it's own vocabulary, which it then teaches by rote as it indoctrinates the initiates. And yes, the Church does teach (in spite of scripture) that the Elect are the "Believers" who are "saved."

And one could even use three verses from Matthew 24 as a Proof Text to show that "The Elect" are these "special people" selected to be saved.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

(Matthew 24:31 KJV)​

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.​

(Matthew 24:24 KJV)​

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.​

(Matthew 24:22 KJV)​

But this is an illusion of translation. What is sometimes called an artifact. As is clearly shown in Matthew 13, if those selected by Jesus to be removed from the Earth by the angels are those who do iniquity, the above three passages should read without contradiction when the word "elect" is replaced by "iniquitous."

Matthew 24:22 GRK) και ει μη εκολοβωθησαν αι ημεραι εκειναι ουκ αν εσωθη πασα σαρξ δια δε τους εκλεκτους κολοβωθησονται αι ημεραι εκειναι

First, I post this because there are no variants in the manuscripts. Second, the word "sake" is not in the text. Furthermore, the word "Elect" is not in the Genitive Case, so there can be no possessive (the elect's) anything. The text does Not read, "for the sake of the elect." Now I can understand that people would reject my translation (no matter how accurate) so let's look at the Young's Literal Translation:

And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened.​

(Matthew 24:22 YLT)

And when we make the simple substitute, we get "And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the Iniquitous, shall those days be shortened.

And that makes perfect sense. There are certain "Iniquitous" people who will do something SO bad that it would cause the extinction of all flesh. While the thoughts of many might just jump to nuclear weapon obliteration, y'all just came through COVID, which I consider to be a test run. But I don't want to hijack my own thread. It's enough to prove here, that if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the Iniquitous, shall those days be shortened.

Let's now look at the second "problem" scripture verse from Matthew:

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.​

(Matthew 24:24 KJV)​

Surely this means that these false Christs and false prophets are trying to deceive the very "Saved Believers" (if possible).

First, there's no real issue here in Greek, but again, looking at the Young's Literal Translation:

for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.​

(Matthew 24:24 YLT)​

Again, recognizing that in Matthew 13, the chosen, the ones chosen to be removed from the earth are the iniquitous, (it says that), we can read: there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the Iniquitous.

Even the iniquitous could be fooled into following these false Christs and false prophets when seeing the great signs and wonders. Do you think that the iniquitous really want to get involved in any religious system? Not really, but if that were possible, these false cult leaders (there I said it) might even convince them. So verse 24 presents no problem when one reads "Iniquitous" instead of "Believer." And it creates no conflict with Matthew 13.

Now the final verse in Matthew 24 that needs to be addressed in order to understand that the Iniquitous are removed at the "Rapture" is verse 31:

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

(Matthew 24:31 KJV)​

In this verse, we can just make a direct substitution from the lexicon, "they shall gather together his selected from the four winds." The Greek phrase is:

τους (THOSE) εκλεκτους (SELECTED) αυτου (BY HIM)​

​

And from Matthew 13, we know that those selected were the ones that do iniquity.

YES, this disagrees with all you were taught. But it doesn't disagree with what is written. But to MAKE the scripture say "Believers," the Eschatology Circus Engine goes into high gear claiming that Matthew 13 and Matthew 24 are speaking about two separate things, which to the common reader means there are Two end of the worlds, and Two second comings, and even Two Raptures. You can buy the pig in the poke if you want, but within the doctrinal frame of reference in Matthew (within its context), the "Elect" (those selected to be removed) are the ones who do Iniquity.

Jesus even confirms this in Matthew 24:

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.​

(Matthew 24:37-41 KJV)

Who are the "THEY" ???

They were eating. They were drinking. They were marring and giving in marriage, and They knew not, right up until the flood came and took them all away (them that do iniquity). The flood took the evil ones away.

So there are two in the field, one is taken, one is left. The two women grinding, one is taken the other is left.

Who are taken?

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather (take) out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

(Matthew 13:41-43 KJV)

Who hath ears to hear, let him hear,
Rhema

 

[Brightfame52]

@Rhema

@Brightfame52 might start posting that Christ died for the Elect. To which I can readily agree:
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
(Romans 5:6 KJV)

Thats the elect by nature.

 

[Rhema]

@Rhema


Thats the elect by nature.

That's everybody by nature.

 

[Dylan569]

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.​

(Mark 13:24-27 KJV)

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

(Matthew 13:40-43 KJV)

"Elect" is the common gloss used in English for the Greek word ἐκλεκτός. But that's not a "special" word in Greek. It just means the things that are "selected."

LINK to the Liddell Scott Greek Lexicon for ἐκλεκτός

A.picked out, select,​

As one can see from the above parallel passages. The ones selected to be gathered by the angels are those who do iniquity. It's pretty obvious to anyone who can read plain Greek, or even plain English. "His Elect" are the ones He selected to be gathered by the angels and be cast into a furnace of fire.

(But I can feel the indignation rising.)

@Brightfame52 might start posting that Christ died for the Elect. To which I can readily agree:

For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.​

(Romans 5:6 KJV)​

The "Elect" are "the ungodly," those who "do iniquity" and shall disappear at the end of the world, when removed by the angels.



But... But... But... (first, go read through the above scripture passages again.)

But... But the Elect are those chosen to go to heaven !!! No? (Again, go read through the above scripture passages again.)

Over the Two Millennia, the Christian Church has created it's own vocabulary, which it then teaches by rote as it indoctrinates the initiates. And yes, the Church does teach (in spite of scripture) that the Elect are the "Believers" who are "saved."

And one could even use three verses from Matthew 24 as a Proof Text to show that "The Elect" are these "special people" selected to be saved.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

(Matthew 24:31 KJV)​

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.​

(Matthew 24:24 KJV)​

And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.​

(Matthew 24:22 KJV)​

But this is an illusion of translation. What is sometimes called an artifact. As is clearly shown in Matthew 13, if those selected by Jesus to be removed from the Earth by the angels are those who do iniquity, the above three passages should read without contradiction when the word "elect" is replaced by "iniquitous."

Matthew 24:22 GRK) και ει μη εκολοβωθησαν αι ημεραι εκειναι ουκ αν εσωθη πασα σαρξ δια δε τους εκλεκτους κολοβωθησονται αι ημεραι εκειναι

First, I post this because there are no variants in the manuscripts. Second, the word "sake" is not in the text. Furthermore, the word "Elect" is not in the Genitive Case, so there can be no possessive (the elect's) anything. The text does Not read, "for the sake of the elect." Now I can understand that people would reject my translation (no matter how accurate) so let's look at the Young's Literal Translation:

And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the chosen, shall those days be shortened.​

(Matthew 24:22 YLT)

And when we make the simple substitute, we get "And if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the Iniquitous, shall those days be shortened.

And that makes perfect sense. There are certain "Iniquitous" people who will do something SO bad that it would cause the extinction of all flesh. While the thoughts of many might just jump to nuclear weapon obliteration, y'all just came through COVID, which I consider to be a test run. But I don't want to hijack my own thread. It's enough to prove here, that if those days were not shortened, no flesh would have been saved; but because of the Iniquitous, shall those days be shortened.

Let's now look at the second "problem" scripture verse from Matthew:

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.​

(Matthew 24:24 KJV)​

Surely this means that these false Christs and false prophets are trying to deceive the very "Saved Believers" (if possible).

First, there's no real issue here in Greek, but again, looking at the Young's Literal Translation:

for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the chosen.​

(Matthew 24:24 YLT)​

Again, recognizing that in Matthew 13, the chosen, the ones chosen to be removed from the earth are the iniquitous, (it says that), we can read: there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and they shall give great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, also the Iniquitous.

Even the iniquitous could be fooled into following these false Christs and false prophets when seeing the great signs and wonders. Do you think that the iniquitous really want to get involved in any religious system? Not really, but if that were possible, these false cult leaders (there I said it) might even convince them. So verse 24 presents no problem when one reads "Iniquitous" instead of "Believer." And it creates no conflict with Matthew 13.

Now the final verse in Matthew 24 that needs to be addressed in order to understand that the Iniquitous are removed at the "Rapture" is verse 31:

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

(Matthew 24:31 KJV)​

In this verse, we can just make a direct substitution from the lexicon, "they shall gather together his selected from the four winds." The Greek phrase is:

τους (THOSE) εκλεκτους (SELECTED) αυτου (BY HIM)​

​

And from Matthew 13, we know that those selected were the ones that do iniquity.

YES, this disagrees with all you were taught. But it doesn't disagree with what is written. But to MAKE the scripture say "Believers," the Eschatology Circus Engine goes into high gear claiming that Matthew 13 and Matthew 24 are speaking about two separate things, which to the common reader means there are Two end of the worlds, and Two second comings, and even Two Raptures. You can buy the pig in the poke if you want, but within the doctrinal frame of reference in Matthew (within its context), the "Elect" (those selected to be removed) are the ones who do Iniquity.

Jesus even confirms this in Matthew 24:

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.​

(Matthew 24:37-41 KJV)

Who are the "THEY" ???

They were eating. They were drinking. They were marring and giving in marriage, and They knew not, right up until the flood came and took them all away (them that do iniquity). The flood took the evil ones away.

So there are two in the field, one is taken, one is left. The two women grinding, one is taken the other is left.

Who are taken?

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather (take) out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

(Matthew 13:41-43 KJV)

Who hath ears to hear, let him hear,
Rhema

You are making MAJOR errors right at the start of your post. Mark 13:24-27 is referring to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking v30, not the end of the world on "the last day". The clear modern English the timing reads:

"Truly I tell you: the present generation will live to see it all." (Mark 13:30 REB)

You try to equate this passage in Mark to that which you quoted from Matt. 13:40-43 but the Greek ἐκλεκτός eklektos does not appear in Matthew until 20:16, and then 22:14 where both times it is translated "chosen", but back in Matt. 13 it reads -

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matt 13:41-42 KJV)

That is clearly at "the last day" at the final judgment, not speaking about that generation to whom Jesus was speaking. Now, as to your use of the LSJ, Classical Greek Lexicon, those who have spent time in study knows that you cannot just willy-nilly lift a definition from the LSJ and insert it into the Greek NT.

In summary, while LSJ is an excellent resource for classical Greek, it is not always suitable for NT Greek due to differences in time period, context, and linguistic evolution. For accurate and nuanced understanding of NT Greek, it is recommended to consult specialized NT Greek lexica, such as BDAG.

Your post went off the rails right at the beginning.

 

[Brightfame52]

That's everybody by nature.

Not the reference Rom 5:6 its only speaking about the elect by nature !

 

[Rhema]

Not the reference Rom 5:6 its only speaking about the elect by nature !

And as shown by Jesus, the "elect" are those who do iniquity.

 

[Brightfame52]

And as shown by Jesus, the "elect" are those who do iniquity.

Rom 5:6 the ungodly there is only the elect, they are by nature ungodly sinners like the nonelect.

 

[Rhema]

Rom 5:6 the ungodly there is only the elect, they are by nature ungodly sinners like the nonelect.

Your position just doesn't make any sense, Brightfame52. Your definitional framework is very skewed. But I know that your very existence depends upon you digging in your heels to this useless doctrine that provides no edification.

Kindly,
Rhema

 

[Brightfame52]

Your position just doesn't make any sense, Brightfame52. Your definitional framework is very skewed. But I know that your very existence depends upon you digging in your heels to this useless doctrine that provides no edification.

Kindly,
Rhema

Rom 5:6 the ungodly there is only the elect, they are by nature ungodly sinners !

 

[Rhema]

You are making MAJOR errors right at the start of your post.

I'd take the time to set you straight about all of it, but just from the tone of you're post I can tell you have dug in your heels and there could be no possible discussion. You want to fight? Go elsewhere.

But let me first point a few things out:

Mark 13:24-27 is referring to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking v30, not the end of the world on "the last day". The clear modern English the timing reads:

"Truly I tell you: the present generation will live to see it all." (Mark 13:30 REB)

First, you rely shouldn't on trash translations. (Maybe we'll get to that.)

Since you now focus on Mark 13, is this not found in the passage?

And the gospel must first be published among all nations.​

(Mark 13:10 KJV)

Oddly enough, you have just called Jesus a false prophet, because the present generation of Jesus' time did NOT live to see the gospel published to all nations. (Or are you a racist to exclude China which heard not the word until the 400's at best? And do you dismiss the Aztecs?)

So now you have a problem. Dylan, look at the entire passage and tell me if you TRULY think Jesus was talking about the people during his lifetime.... READ IT

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.​

(Mark 13:24-27 KJV)

When did that happen? When did "they see the Son of man coming in the clouds"? They didn't. It hasn't happened. The sun darkened? Maybe at the crucifixion. The moon? I can concede an eclipse at the crucifixion. Stars of heaven falling? Powers in the heaven shaken? Nothing about those things mentioned in the Gospel accounts. And like you said (let's make sure)

Mark 13:24-27 is referring to the generation to whom Jesus was speaking v30

Did the gathering of the elect (no matter whom they may be)... did the gathering of the elect happen ???

NO.

So from your perspective, then, Jesus is a failed prophet.

Is that enough? Or should we continue?

You're new here, and your profile says "Yes" to Born Again, so if you don't believe Jesus was a false prophet, then the "this generation" could not possibly be the living people to whom Jesus was speaking, because two major event didn't happen before they died.

So where does that come "generation thing" from? The NEXT passage:

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.​

(Mark 13:28-31 KJV)

It is the generation who sees certain things come to pass (γίνομαι) that shall not pass (παρέρχομαι) until those things be done. The branch of the fig tree is not tender. Hasn't been for many centuries. (But it did start in 1997)

But c'mon Dylan, if you DEMAND that verse 30 is about the generation living at the time of Jesus, those people who heard his words, you have made Jesus into a false prophet since the gospel has NOT been preached to all nations; no one has seen ANY Jesus coming in the clouds (only leaving); and Nobody has been gathered anywhere.

So is it possible for you to have a rational conversation about this? From my experience, most all denominations are locked into their Eschatology and are unable to change.

Let me know,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

The clear modern English the timing reads:

"Truly I tell you: the present generation will live to see it all." (Mark 13:30 REB)

Well the initial Greek reads:

αμην λεγω υμιν οτι ου μη παρελθη η γενεα αυτη μεχρις ου παντα ταυτα γενηται​

(Mark 13:30 TR)

So if you could be so kind as to point out where the word "present" is, I would be most grateful.

Thanks,
Rhema

 

[Rhema]

For accurate and nuanced understanding of NT Greek, it is recommended to consult specialized NT Greek lexica, such as BDAG.

Ahhhh... I can see from where your insular and narrow viewpoint arises. No doubt we shall differ that the BDAG is a lexicon with its brains blown out, sliced and diced to present an Evangelical bias.

The Liddell Scott has an online presence from which I can provide source links. The others do not.

My library (my real physical one) also has the Cambridge Greek Lexicon (wonderful book set) and Kittel's.

I'm just not inclined to waste the time typing their entries into my posts unless it is crucial.

Rhema
(But thank GOD you didn't say "Thayer's." I would have lost all respect. )

 

[Rhema]

And who are the elect exactly

C'mon Bill, don't go all silent on me.

 

[Rhema]

Rom 5:6 the ungodly there is only the elect, they are by nature ungodly sinners !

And sometimes as stubborn and stiff-necked as Jews....

 

[Bill]

C'mon Bill, don't go all silent on me.

I told you who the elect were, or maybe it wasn't you.

The elect are those whose hearts are circumcised

 

[Bill]

And sometimes as stubborn and stiff-necked as Jews....

Absolutely, christians are very stubborn , rolling my eyes

 

[Bill]

Ahhhh... I can see from where your insular and narrow viewpoint arises. No doubt we shall differ that the BDAG is a lexicon with its brains blown out, sliced and diced to present an Evangelical bias.

The Liddell Scott has an online presence from which I can provide source links. The others do not.

My library (my real physical one) also has the Cambridge Greek Lexicon (wonderful book set) and Kittel's.

I'm just not inclined to waste the time typing their entries into my posts unless it is crucial.

Rhema
(But thank GOD you didn't say "Thayer's." I would have lost all respect. )

I too, get frustrated at "Christians" when they squabble over petty faith type things. I mean seriously. So what if a person worships God on Saterday versus Sunday. Can't Christians be greatful- at least they are worshipping God.

I mean it is soooooooo retarded with some of the most petty reasons.

You know i get flack from Catholics too. Do not kid yourself, protestants are only one side of my coin.

I can guarentee you, the punishments of God are going to fall on His wayward children much harder than the rest of mankind.

 

[Brightfame52]

And sometimes as stubborn and stiff-necked as Jews....

Thats everyone naturally. However Rom 5:6-8 is only about the elect

 

[KingJ]

You say this to @Dylan569

You want to fight? Go elsewhere.

and then proceed to 'fight' with these lines.

Ahhhh... I can see from where your insular and narrow viewpoint arises. So is it possible for you to have a rational conversation about this? First, you rely shouldn't on trash translations. So now you have a problem. Is that enough? Or should we continue? I would be most grateful

This kind of talk is harassment and bullying. Try be better!

 

[Rhema]

This kind of talk is harassment and bullying. Try be better!

You just cannot help yourself from telling other people what to do.

Try to be better!