LITERAL Hellfire Torment—Not A Bible Teaching

[Alter2Ego]

You started this thread all wrong. If you came here asking for help and advice, people would be obliged to help you and show you the scriptures. ''Do the homework'' for you. But instead you come here as though you are waiting to set people up with your winning hand.

KingJ:

Where did you get the strange idea that I came to this website "asking for help and advice"? Go back and read my OP again, and perhaps you will reach the correct conclusion that I am here for a Bible discussions in which God's inspired word, the Bible, will be the authority.

I asked hellfire believers to present three scriptures at a time. You presented two scriptures, and neither of them support literal hellfire torment. You've turned up showing outrage, complaining that my OP is all wrong, etc., and now you're accusing me of "waiting to set people up with" my "winning hand."

You have the wrong attitude. Obviously, you view this as a contest. That's not how I regard this at all. I view this as a opportunity to let God's word correct the misguided religious beliefs that people have become attached to over the years.

2 Timothy 3:16​

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,

 

[Alter2Ego]

You are telling me what you believe without providing scriptural support, King J. Please present scripture that indicates: "eternal hell is "called" the lake of fire."

No more than three verses of scripture at a time, please.

Imagine rudely poking people for explanations on a very sensitive and complex topic of eternal punishment and not knowing that scripture says eternal hell is called the lake of fire.

You have just shown that you need to be 'babied' from step 1 on this topic. Good luck finding someone here to entertain you.

KingJ:

You said that already, and I asked you to present scripture to support what you are claiming.

I am well aware that the lake of fire is mentioned in several places in the Book of Revelation, including:

• Revelation 19:20
  "And the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who did mighty miracles on behalf of the beast — miracles that deceived all who had accepted the mark of the beast and who worshiped his statue. Both the beast and his false prophet were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur".
  
  
  
• Revelation 20:10
  "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever".
  
  
  
• Revelation 20:14–15
  "Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire".
  
  
  
• Revelation 21:8
  "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars-their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death".
  
  

None of those scriptures indicate that the lake of fire is equivalent to, as you claim, "eternal hell." In fact, "Hell" and "the lake of fire" are two entirely different things throughout the Bible.

 

[First and the Last]

I asked hellfire believers to present three scriptures at a time. You presented two scriptures, and neither of them support literal hellfire torment. You've turned up showing outrage, complaining that my OP is all wrong, etc., and now you're accusing me of "waiting to set people up with" my "winning hand."

Matthew 25:41, "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

Greek Word Study:

"Depart": The Greek word used here is "ἀπόστητε" (apostēte), which means to go away or to be sent away. It denotes a final separation or dismissal, indicating that those on the left will be permanently removed from the presence of Christ and His blessings.
"Cursed": The term "καταραμένοι" (kataramenoi) means accursed or doomed. This indicates that those being addressed are under divine condemnation and are destined for judgment. This curse is the opposite of blessing and reflects a state of being subject to divine wrath.
"Everlasting": The Greek word "αἰώνιος" (aiōnios) translates to "eternal" or "everlasting." It implies an unending duration. In this context, it signifies that the punishment is not temporary but eternal, lasting forever without end.
"Fire": The term "πῦρ" (pur) refers to literal fire but in this eschatological context symbolizes a place of judgment and suffering. It conveys the intense, destructive nature of the punishment awaiting those who are judged.

Matthew 25:46, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

"Everlasting punishment" (Greek: αἰώνιον κόλασιν, aiōnion kolasin): The term "everlasting" translates the Greek word "aiōnion," which is derived from "aiōn," meaning "age" or "eternity." "Kolasin" refers to "punishment" or "torment." Thus, "everlasting punishment" indicates a form of punishment that endures for an indefinite or eternal period. This term emphasizes the ongoing, unending nature of the consequences for those who are deemed unrighteous.

Mark 9:43,"And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:"

"hell" (Greek: γέεννα, Gehenna): The term used for the Valley of Hinnom, a place associated with the burning of refuse and, in Jewish thought, symbolically associated with the place of final judgment and punishment. Gehenna is depicted as a place of eternal fire and torment, underscoring the severity of the consequences for sin.

"the fire that never shall be quenched" (Greek: ἀσβέστος, asbestos): Meaning "unquenchable" or "inextinguishable." This term highlights the perpetual and eternal nature of the judgment associated with Gehenna. Unlike earthly fires that can be extinguished, the fire of Gehenna is everlasting and unending.

 

[KingJ]

KingJ:

Where did you get the strange idea that I came to this website "asking for help and advice"? Go back and read my OP again, and perhaps you will reach the correct conclusion that I am here for a Bible discussions in which God's inspired word, the Bible, will be the authority.

I asked hellfire believers to present three scriptures at a time. You presented two scriptures, and neither of them support literal hellfire torment. You've turned up showing outrage, complaining that my OP is all wrong, etc., and now you're accusing me of "waiting to set people up with" my "winning hand."

You have the wrong attitude. Obviously, you view this as a contest. That's not how I regard this at all. I view this as a opportunity to let God's word correct the misguided religious beliefs that people have become attached to over the years.

2 Timothy 3:16​

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,

You have misquoted my post.

I propose you just type your personal belief for all to read. Stop dancing around.

'''I Alter2Ego disagree with the popular X and Y view of A - F scriptures for these specific reasons.....'''

At the moment you coming across like a cringe troll.

 

[Alter2Ego]

You have misquoted my post.

I propose you just type your personal belief for all to read. Stop dancing around.

'''I Alter2Ego disagree with the popular X and Y view of A - F scriptures for these specific reasons.....'''

At the moment you coming across like a cringe troll.

KingJ:

I don't believe I misquoted your post.

Again, my intent is to have a respectful discussion while allowing God's inspired word, the Bible, to be the authority. Why? Because the Bible does not contradict itself. So if the Bible is saying the opposite of what a person is claiming (when scriptural context is paid attention to), then that person must be willing to be corrected by scripture. It's called humility.

2 Timothy 3:16​

All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness,


One should never allow one's personal philosophy to trump what's stated in the scriptures. Unfortunately, this is what I run into with people who believe certain doctrines that aren't supported by scripture. They cherry-pick a few words from certain places in the Bible and ignore everything else that makes up the context. When they are shown context, they refuse to be corrected because they are more interested in clinging to their religious traditions and more interested in winning the debate.

KingJ, you presented two scriptures in response to my OP, as follows:

3. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to that effect to prove it (no more than 3 scriptures at a time, please). Follow the steps indicated at Question #1.

Yes, many. One that comes to mind is Matt 25:46.

4. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in a burning hellfire if they aren't even aware?t.

They will be aware. Read Luke 16.

I will show you, by using scripture and appealing to your logic, why those scriptures do not support what you believe they are saying. I will present the explanation in separate posts.

 

[Alter2Ego]

3. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to that effect to prove it (no more than 3 scriptures at a time, please). Follow the steps indicated at Question #1.

Yes, many. One that comes to mind is Matt 25:46.

KingJ:

I will first quote the scripture.


New King James Version
"'And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'” (Matthew 25:46)

As all reading this thread can see, the verse says certain ones will "go away into everlasting punishment" but says nothing about them having an immortal soul that survives the death of the person. The term "everlasting punishment" in the Bible refers to annihilation (non-existence) because of what's stated at Romans 6:23.


English Standard Version
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)


That verse of scripture gives two options:
1. Death
2. Eternal life

Death is the opposite of life. An immortal soul that supposedly survives the death of the person would be a contradiction to Romans 6:23 because it would mean the person is still alive.


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

4. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in a burning hellfire if they aren't even aware?t.

They will be aware. Read Luke 16.

KingJ:

I asked you earlier to give me the verses within Luke 16 to support your position that dead people are aware that they are burning up in literal hellfire. You ignored my request , became defensive, and accused me of the following:

Imagine rudely poking people for explanations on a very sensitive and complex topic of eternal punishment and not knowing that scripture says eternal hell is called the lake of fire.

You have just shown that you need to be 'babied' from step 1 on this topic. Good luck finding someone here to entertain you.

I've read Luke chapter16 numerous times over the years because hellfire believers keep bringing it up during debates (at other websites). Within Luke 16 is the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus, a favorite of hellfire believers who refuse to accept that it's nothing more than another of Jesus' parables. One of their arguments for why they believe it's a true story is that it mentions the names Lazarus and Abraham. However, they ignore the following facts:

1. The "Lazarus" in this parable is a beggar, unlike the Lazarus of Bethany whom Jesus resurrected.
2. The "Rich Man" was never given a name throughtout the story despite the fact he was one of the main characters.
3. If the "Rich Man" was burning up in literal hellfire, what good would a literal drop of water do him?
4. For that matter, how would a drop of water survive evaporation by the time the water passed through literal fiery flames?
5. If the "Abraham" in this parable was literally in heaven and the "Rich Man" was literally in hell, how was it possible for them to hear each other's conversation with so much distance between them?


Scripture says regarding Jesus' method of teaching:

Matthew 13:34​

"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them,"


Alter2Ego

 

[Charlie24]

The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in literal flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoings committed during the relatively brief human lifespan.


Hellfire believers insist that the wicked will literally experience pain while burning in literal flames of fire—after they have died. So that brings us to the questions below.



DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:

1. Are there are scriptures in the Judeo-Christian Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If you believe that to be the case, please quote up to three (3) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse, along with a brief explanation for why you believe the verses are talking literal hellfire torment.


2. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, only wicked people will wind up in hell. Is that what you believe?


3. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to that effect to prove it (no more than 3 scriptures at a time, please). Follow the steps indicated at Question #1.


4. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in a burning hellfire if they aren't even aware?


5. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also, or does the term "soul" apply only to humans?



Alter2Ego

The Scripture plainly places all the lost in the Lake of Fire forever in the end.

Just show me in Scripture where they get out and I'll join the UR.

If you can't show me where they get out of the lake of Fire, then you're blowing hot air.

 

[B-A-C]

believers who refuse to accept that it's nothing more than another of Jesus' parables

It would also be the only parable not identified specifically as a parable in the Bible. But even so, lets say it is a parable. What is a parable?
Something that reveals a spiritual truth. One of the truths in this "parable" would be that the "dead" can feel pain.

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

How long does their torment last? How much rest do these people get? What causes the torment?

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

How long does their torment last?

Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

How long does the punishment last for the first group of people?

 

[B-A-C]

Jude 1:6; And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since the angels in the same way as these indulged in sexual immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

The fallen angels, how long will they be punished?
It doesn't matter if this is a parable or not, either way, the Rich man feels pain.

Luke 16:23; "In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and *saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luke 16:24; "And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'
Luke 16:25; "But Abraham said, 'Child, remember that during your life you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus bad things; but now he is being comforted here, and you are in agony.
Luke 16:26; 'And besides all this, between us and you there is a great chasm fixed, so that those who wish to come over from here to you will not be able, and that none may cross over from there to us.'
Luke 16:27; "And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house—
Luke 16:28; for I have five brothers—in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.

 

[Charlie24]

Jude 1:6; And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day,
Jude 1:7; just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since the angels in the same way as these indulged in sexual immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

The fallen angels, how long will they be punished?

These folks will argue this all day long. Their scholars go into never ending debates on "aion" and all of it's derivatives, making it to mean what they want it to mean.

The bottom line is that they cannot show us plainly where the lost get out of the lake of Fire as plainly as the Scripture places them in the Lake of Fire.

It's a wish, a dream, they haven't a single fact. But they will preach it from the rooftops as God's honest truth!

 

[B-A-C]

These folks will argue this all day long. Their scholars go into never ending debates on "aion" and all of it's derivatives, making it to mean what they want it to mean.

Here is a little exercise. Greek is still a commonly used language today. Everyone in Greece still speaks Greek even now in 2024.
Ancient Greek has changed a little, but not so much that Greeks today can't understand it.
Ask any of these people what "aionios" means. You don't know any Greeks personally, here is something you can do right now.

Open up Google translator. You can even do this in your internet browser. Go to the "Greek to English" translation page, and type
in "aionios" on the Greek side and see what word it returns in English.

 

[Charlie24]

Here is a little exercise. Greek is still a commonly used language today. Everyone in Greece still speaks Greek even now in 2024.
Ancient Greek has changed a little, but not so much that Greeks today can't understand it.
Ask any of these people what "aionios" means. You don't know any Greeks personally, here is something you can do right now.

Open up Google translator. You can even do this in your internet browser. Go to the "Greek to English" translation page, and type
in "aionios" on the Greek side and see what word it returns in English.

I've said in the past for many years that these UR folks mean well, and have good hearts.

That doesn't change the fact they are teaching something as truth from Scripture that does not exist.

 

[Alter2Ego]

The Scripture plainly places all the lost in the Lake of Fire forever in the end.

Just show me in Scripture where they get out and I'll join the UR.

If you can't show me where they get out of the lake of Fire, then you're blowing hot air.

Charlie24:

Suppose you present at least one verse of scripture that says the Lake of Fire is a literal place. You will find scriptures on the Lake of Fire in the book of Revelation.


Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

It would also be the only parable not identified specifically as a parable in the Bible. But even so, lets say it is a parable. What is a parable?
Something that reveals a spiritual truth. One of the truths in this "parable" would be that the "dead" can feel pain.

B-A-C:

If the story of the "Rich Man" and "Lazarus" at Luke chapter 16 is not a parable, suppose you explain away these five issues that I raised at post 27:

1. The "Lazarus" in this parable is a beggar, unlike the Lazarus of Bethany whom Jesus resurrected.
2. The "Rich Man" was never given a name throughtout the story despite the fact he was one of the main characters.
3. If the "Rich Man" was burning up in literal hellfire, what good would a literal drop of water do him?
4. For that matter, how would a drop of water survive evaporation by the time the water passed through literal fiery flames?
5. If the "Abraham" in this parable was literally in heaven and the "Rich Man" was literally in hell, how was it possible for them to hear each other's conversation with so much distance between them?

Alter2Ego

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie24:

Suppose you present at least one verse of scripture that says the Lake of Fire is a literal place. You will find scriptures on the Lake of Fire in the book of Revelation.


Alter2Ego

If you can read Luke 16:19-31 and not realize that hell is real, then you are in denial of what Christ taught.

 

[Alter2Ego]

It would also be the only parable not identified specifically as a parable in the Bible. But even so, lets say it is a parable. What is a parable?
Something that reveals a spiritual truth. One of the truths in this "parable" would be that the "dead" can feel pain.

Rev 14:9; Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10; he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11; "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

How long does their torment last? How much rest do these people get? What causes the torment?

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

How long does their torment last?

Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

How long does the punishment last for the first group of people?

B-A-C:

Most of the book of Revelation is presented in symbolic language. Readers are informed of this at the very first verse in the first chapter of Revelation, as follows:


"The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him, to show to His servants the things which must shortly come to pass; and, having sent, He signified them through His angel to His servant John;" (Revelation 1:1 -- Worrell New Testament)

Revelation 1:1​

"A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent his angel and presented it in signs through him to his slave John,"



Whenever symbolism is used, the words are never literal. Take Revelation 14:9-11 for example that you presented above.

"[9] Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, [10] he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [11] And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."


Look at the language that I bolded in large print and in blue. Verse 10 speaks of the "wine of the wrath of God." Taken literally, that would mean that God's wrath is a wine and his anger is a cup. It would also mean that verses 9 and 11 are speaking about a literal beast, when in fact those verses are talking about Satan the Devil. There is no literal Lamb (verse 10) but instead that title is given to Jesus as the "lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world."


If you're going to argue that the Lake of Fire in the book of Revelatin is a literal place, then everything in chapter 14 verses 9 through 11 will have to be literal, including God's wrath which must literally be a wine and his anger that literally must be a cup. In addition, the beast must be literal, and the Lamb must be a literal baby sheep.



Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

If you can read Luke 16:19-31 and not realize that hell is real, then you are in denial of what Christ taught.

See Post 35 above.

 

[First and the Last]

If the "Abraham" in this parable was literally in heaven and the "Rich Man" was literally in hell, how was it possible for them to hear each other's conversation with so much distance between them?

Just food for thought, nothing to do with the subject at hand. Jesus was the 1st begotten of the dead. The thief on the cross, and everyone before Christ who died in faith went to Abraham's bosom (or as Jesus called it to the thief on the cross, Paradise): A place of comfort in Sheol, or Hades, where the righteous dead wait for Judgment Day. It is a specific place where only the righteous dead live, and is not to be equated with the general realm of the dead.

 

[Alter2Ego]

Matt 25:46; "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

How long does the punishment last for the first group of people?

B-A-C:

Matthew 25:46 is part of Jesus' parable of the sheep and the goats. A parable is a fictitious story that is used to give an illustration.


Definition of "Parable":

"a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle
the Biblical parable of the Good Samaritan"

Definition of PARABLE

a usually short fictitious story that illustrates a moral attitude or a religious principle; also : something (such as a news story or a series of real events) likened to a parable in providing an instructive example or lesson… See the full definition

www.merriam-webster.com