Living in Sin?

[B-A-C]

1Co 5:1 Your own members are aware that there is sexual sin going on among them. This kind of sin is not even heard of among unbelievers-a man is actually married to his father's wife.
:2 You're being arrogant when you should have been more upset about this. If you had been upset, the man who did this would have been removed from among you.
:3 Although I'm not physically present with you, I am with you in spirit. I have already judged the man who did this as though I were present with you.
:4 When you have gathered together, I am with you in spirit. Then, in the name of our Lord Jesus, and with his power,
:5 hand such a person over to Satan to destroy his corrupt nature so that his spiritual nature may be saved on the day of the Lord.
:6 It's not good for you to brag. Don't you know that a little yeast spreads through the whole batch of dough?
:7 Remove the old yeast of sin so that you may be a new batch of dough, since you don't actually have the yeast of sin. Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
:8 So we must not celebrate our festival with the old yeast of sin or with the yeast of vice and wickedness. Instead, we must celebrate it with the bread of purity and truth that has no yeast.
:9 In my letter to you I told you not to associate with people who continue to commit sexual sins.
:10 I didn't tell you that you could not have any contact with unbelievers who commit sexual sins, are greedy, are dishonest, or worship false gods. If that were the case, you would have to leave this world.
:11 Now, what I meant was that you should not associate with people who call themselves brothers or sisters in the Christian faith but live in sexual sin, are greedy, worship false gods, use abusive language, get drunk, or are dishonest. Don't eat with such people.
:12 After all, do I have any business judging those who are outside the Christian faith? Isn't it your business to judge those who are inside?
:13 God will judge those who are outside. Remove that wicked man from among you.

It seems that in todays society.. there are many "Christians" living together.. (not married) and yet still consider themselves "good Godly Christians" they have 100 excuses on why they are doing it, maybe it's financially easier, maybe they even have Children together, maybe the state they are living in recognizes "common-law" marriage. But man's laws are not God's laws. Some states also recognize same-sex marriage, but that doesn't mean God is alright with it.
How have we become so calloused to sin, maybe we have friends who "live together" and we are Ok with it, and even encouraging them and their "relationship". The bottom line is.. sin is sin, no matter what you call it. Yes God loves you and will forgive you.. but you need to repent... Get married if thats what it takes... move out if thats what it takes... maybe you are afraid they will leave you.. and maybe they will... but should any relationship be more important than your relationship with God?
- B-A-C

 

[Brother Mike]

Living with someone your not married to......

How have we become so calloused to sin, maybe we have friends who "live together" and we are Ok with it, and even encouraging them and their "relationship". The bottom line is.. sin is sin, no matter what you call it. Yes God loves you and will forgive you.. but you need to repent... Get married if thats what it takes... move out if thats what it takes... maybe you are afraid they will leave you.. and maybe they will... but should any relationship be more important than your relationship with God?
- B-A-C

One thing that I have learned the Hard way......... People must give you and entrance to the Truth. I see lots of things in the Body of Christ that I can only just shake my head at.

Unless I get a very strong unction of the Holy Spirit to go mention something, I have to fold my hands and keep quit.......... If someone ask me about their situation and what the scriptures say, then they have given me and the Word place in their lives.

I can't cast my pearls to swine who won't take heed and listen.

When asking these (Christians who live together) you are right. I hear all kinds of things.

"Ya, I know, but we love each other and plan to marry anyway."

"I can't leave, I want to, but who is going to pay the bills."

"It's not that simple, we bought a house together, we have to be responsible and get the mortgage paid."

"I know, I know it's sin, I'll get out........(Yet they never do.)

It amazes me that someone will choose death over life, and call themselves Christians. It is even more amazing that they say they love that person they are with, but have no concern for their spiritual welfare............. Did I miss something? Is that love??

They wonder why Satan comes in to destroy things in their life, take their children to the grave, and say God moves in Mysterious ways....... Amazing........

Jesus Is Lord.

 

[Diamondlight]

I wonder how much the 'church' is responsible for some of the double-minded christians; one foot in the world, one in the church.

I certainly take responsibility for intellectually and socially introducing someone to the church and convincing them of the need for conversion by many other methods, other than God.

If you take up enough of someones time, meet their practical and emotional needs, show them kindness like they have never experienced before, and connect them to community that feels like family, they might agree to anything so as to fit in and please their new found family. I have discovered later on though, to my shame, that becuase the work was not God's doing, the sustainability of the 'conversion' is either temporal (until the novelty wears off) and they leave the church, or who becomes a dissembler, because they were not drawn, convicted and enlightened by the living God.

Jesus did not go chasing after people. On the whole, people followed him and he responded to their (seeking) questions.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Jesus did not go chasing after people. On the whole, people followed him and he responded to their (seeking) questions.

You can dump a whole truckload of birdseed in front of a bunch of birds and if they're not hungry, they won't touch it. Its the same way with drawing people to Christ. Many people think that Jesus randomly chose the Apostles (see Mt 4:18-22). I don't believe that. When He called them out, His public ministry had already begun. He'd been preaching in and around the Sea of Galilee, where they plied their trade, for months. They had all either listened to Him or heard about Him and been drawn to Him. When the time was right, the Holy Spirit directed Him to approach them.

I think God works that way today in drawing people to Himself. I've been taught to listen to the Spirit's promptings as to what to say, whom to say it to, and when to say it . I don't do it perfectly. I'm sure I miss many of His cues. But, I continue to evangelize that way because a) There's been a measure of success, and b) Its a lot easier and more fun than trying to organize and operate the whole thing by myself.

SLE

 

[Coconut]

I wonder how much the 'church' is responsible for some of the double-minded christians; one foot in the world, one in the church.

I certainly take responsibility for intellectually and socially introducing someone to the church and convincing them of the need for conversion by many other methods, other than God.

If you take up enough of someones time, meet their practical and emotional needs, show them kindness like they have never experienced before, and connect them to community that feels like family, they might agree to anything so as to fit in and please their new found family. I have discovered later on though, to my shame, that becuase the work was not God's doing, the sustainability of the 'conversion' is either temporal (until the novelty wears off) and they leave the church, or who becomes a dissembler, because they were not drawn, convicted and enlightened by the living God.

Jesus did not go chasing after people. On the whole, people followed him and he responded to their (seeking) questions.

That is very well said!

If people are following us, what or whom are they finding?

 

[jiggyfly]

How have we become so calloused to sin, maybe we have friends who "live together" and we are Ok with it, and even encouraging them and their "relationship". The bottom line is.. sin is sin, no matter what you call it. Yes God loves you and will forgive you.. but you need to repent... Get married if thats what it takes... move out if thats what it takes... maybe you are afraid they will leave you.. and maybe they will... but should any relationship be more important than your relationship with God?
- B-A-C

I think your expecting a little much from the religious institution, after all it is a carnal club. They spend all their energies instructing how to mimic HolySpirit and instruct on how to slick up the outside.

Tis far better to leave religion behind, stop following a man-made institution, yield to the Lord Jesus and allow HolySpirit to work within by the power of love.

 

[Coconut]

1Co 5:1 Your own members are aware that there is sexual sin going on among them. This kind of sin is not even heard of among unbelievers-a man is actually married to his father's wife.

This needs corrected; the text indicates he was sleeping with his stepmother (who was already married to his father, so she could`nt be married to the step-son ). This is actually an act of separating two people who are already married (one flesh) which can only be fornication on the part of both the step mother and the step-son. God clearly defines their 'act' as being sexually immoral.

It seems that in todays society.. there are many "Christians" living together.. (not married) and yet still consider themselves "good Godly Christians"... But man's laws are not God's laws.

It is critical to define exactly what Gods laws are concerning sexual immorality, if we are going to judge "good Godly Christians".

What is "marriage in the eyes of God?" It is written as, (according to my comprehension) when a man and a woman become "one" or are joined together in the marriage bed. (Genesis 2:24) God declares the marriage bed to be the place a man and woman become "one" flesh. God requires that man and woman remain faithful to this union, forsaking all others. God then declares them to be married, but you declare they are not. Which is it?

Before you answer that, I am well enlightened concerning Jewish ceremonial customs in Biblical times, (the 'marriage' and the ceremonial celebration being defined as two different things- one celebrating the other) as well as what traditional Gentile customs dictate. I am simply asking if Gods decree stands, or do we get to wave a piece of paper in His face that changes it, when it does`nt suit our tradition or definition of morality?

Have I missed something? I really want to know the answer to this question. It seems to me, that we are good at shouting But man's laws are not God's laws. when we happen to agree with Gods law. But when Gods law interferes with our coveted traditions, we do a whole lot of double talking. When it comes to our traditions we wont even "search the scriptures to see if these things be so." And if someone else searches the scripture and points to a contradiction...we ignore them and carry on with our traditions...or we dig our heels in and grasp at some word or verse that will allow us to keep clinging to them. The tradition must be kept alive at all costs...even if that cost is the souls we condemn with them.

 

[B-A-C]

It is critical to define exactly what Gods laws are concerning sexual immorality, if we are going to judge "good Godly Christians".

What is "marriage in the eyes of God?" It is written as, (according to my comprehension) when a man and a woman become "one" or are joined together in the marriage bed. (Genesis 2:24) God declares the marriage bed to be the place a man and woman become "one" flesh. God requires that man and woman remain faithful to this union, forsaking all others. God then declares them to be married, but you declare they are not. Which is it?

Before you answer that, I am well enlightened concerning Jewish ceremonial customs in Biblical times, (the 'marriage' and the ceremonial celebration being defined as two different things- one celebrating the other) as well as what traditional Gentile customs dictate. I am simply asking if Gods decree stands, or do we get to wave a piece of paper in His face that changes it, when it does`nt suit our tradition or definition of morality?

Have I missed something? I really want to know the answer to this question. It seems to me, that we are good at shouting But man's laws are not God's laws. when we happen to agree with Gods law. But when Gods law interferes with our coveted traditions, we do a whole lot of double talking. When it comes to our traditions we wont even "search the scriptures to see if these things be so." And if someone else searches the scripture and points to a contradiction...we ignore them and carry on with our traditions...or we dig our heels in and grasp at some word or verse that will allow us to keep clinging to them. The tradition must be kept alive at all costs...even if that cost is the souls we condemn with them.

Joh 8:41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."
Act_ 15:20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
Act 15:29 that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell."
Act 21:25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."

From Merriam-Webster.com
Fornication: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other

Apparently you did miss something. Marriage is MUCH more than simply sleeping together. Just because two people slept together doesn't make them married.

Exod 22:16 There were dowry's.
Matt 22:2-12 There were feasts
Matt 25:10, Luke 12:36 There were weddings
John 2:1-2 Jesus's first miracle was at a wedding

Marriage involves commitment, it is a covenant (hopefully life-long, it was meant to be)
Weddings involve a public proclamation, legal records and obligations.

Certificates of marriage and divorce were common in both the OT and NT. (Deut 24:1, 24:3, Isa 50:1, Matt 5:31, Matt 19:7)
Marriage was a ceremony often accompanied by a feast and usually performed by a priest.

The bigger part of the OT compares the nation of Israel as a wife (sometimes faithful, sometimes un-faithful)
The NT compares the church as the bride, and Christ as the groom. Christ is coming for his bride, not his girlfriend that he sleeps with. There is a huge difference.

Engagement is not marriage (Deut 20:7, Luke 1:27, Luke 2:5, Matt 1:18-19)
Without a wedding, there is no marriage. Without a marriage. It's just fornication.

 

[farout]

B A C You have brought up a subject that is like a huge brown bare hiding under the carpet in the livingroon.

Often some couple will ay " we have been together 10 years and married 4 years. Rhis is quite common in many churches today, and those who say this seem to have no shame in what they have done. In couples who have been married several times, living together and avoiding marriage altogether seems totally natural in some churches.

In an article I read recently said that there is no such thing as a "common law marriage" in the United Satates. I have not verified this, but it sounds reasonable with the number of couples who are cohabiting.

When confronting a Chriatian couple who are cohabiting their response is much like " don't judge me, Jesus said we are not to judge each other. This sidetracts the subject and takes the spotlight away from their action of cohabiting, which is sin.

May I suggest the very best book on living together. The book is LIVING TOGETHER MYTHS, RISKS, & ANSWERS by McMananus & McManus Published by HowardBooksm a division of Simon & Schuster, Inc. New York, NY 10020.

Mike and Harriet McManus co-write this book from the fifteen years they have been in marriage counseling. This book is the best on the Myths of living together I HAVE EVER READ. Offering not only practical down to earth help and keys to a successful marriage.

This book not only gives out reasons why living together lessens our chance for happily ever after marriage, but gives things that build stronger lasting marriages.

I can not reccomend a book that is better, than the Bible itself. This book is a "MUST READ". Excellent for lay people or those in the pew, Please read it. I hope to hear from thise who have read it or you who buy and read it. Fod Bless tou all.

 

[B-A-C]

In an article I read recently said that there is no such thing as a "common law marriage" in the United Satates. I have not verified this, but it sounds reasonable with the number of couples who are cohabiting.

When confronting a Chriatian couple who are cohabiting their response is much like " don't judge me, Jesus said we are not to judge each other. This sidetracts the subject and takes the spotlight away from their action of cohabiting, which is sin.

There is common Law marriage in TX for sure. I'm not sure about other states.
I know the state of Washington does not recognize common law marriage. Those are the only two I am familiar with.

As far as not judging others. Where does the Bible say this? I hear this quoted quite often, however what the Bible really says is....

We will be forgiven as we forgive others, we will be judged as we judge others, but it doesn't say not to judge other believers, in fact it in 1 Cor 5:10-13

It tells us we SHOULD judge other believers. (But not un-believers).
1 Cor 5:12 For what do I have to do with judging non-believers? We are to judge those who are within the church.

 

[Coconut]

BAC you quoted scriptures on fornication, and then gave this definition of fornication:

From Merriam-Webster.com
Fornication: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other

Compare to Strongs definition:

Fornication: harlotry (including adultery and incest)
(In Mat_5:32 Jesus refers to a married man or woman committing fornication.)

So your definition is correct, except it leaves something out. It still does not define what "marriage" is.

What is your definition of "one flesh"?

And how do two people become "one flesh"

Mat 19:4 [Jesus] answered them, "Haven't you read that the one who made them at the beginning 'made them male and female'
Mat 19:5 and said, 'That is why a man will leave his father and mother and be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?
Mat 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together...."

Where is the ordained minister, priest, state, or law of man in this picture?

Apparently you did miss something. Marriage is MUCH more than simply sleeping together. Just because two people slept together doesn't make them married.

I may have missed something, I`ve been known to do that...:`)

But if that is true, then explain this verse?

1Co 6:16 You know that the person who unites himself with a prostitute becomes one body with her, don't you? For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."

 

[B-A-C]

Mal 2:14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

Marriage, is more than sex. It is a covenant.
Jesus didn't recognize sleeping with someone as marriage.

John 4:16 Jesus told her, "Go to your husband, and bring him here." 17 The woman replied, "I don't have a husband." Jesus told her, "You're right when you say that you don't have a husband. 18 You've had five husbands, and the man you have now isn't your husband. You've told the truth."

In 1 Cor 6:16, I do believe in consummation, it is a part of marriage, I don't dispute this. But it isn't what makes the marriage. The covenant is what makes the marriage.

Romans 13:1-2 says we are to subject to government authority. Here in the US I suppose there are a few states that recognize common law marriage. But for the vast majority of us a marriage ceremony/certificate is required for us to be legally married.

As I said earlier, man's laws aren't necessarily God's laws, and in some cases (such as homosexual marriages) man's law specifically goes against God's law. But in other cases (heterosexual marriages) man's law does not go against God's law. In those cases we should follow both laws.

Another thought is, if a person (man or woman) commits adultery and sleeps with someone they are not married to, (and if sex is all it requires to be "married") then who are they married to now? What if they are sleeping around with multiple married people? Are they married to all of them? Now I'm certainly not condoning this behavior, but I'm sure God would see it as "not the person you are having sex with" but rather the person you made the vows and covenant with.
I suppose you could argue and say, I can make vows and promises to someone on my own, I don't need a Preacher or Justice of the Peace, or some piece of paper to do that. Well, Ok maybe that's true, but if it is, then sex isn't what made you "married". In fact it's something that should happen AFTER the marriage ceremony, not before. Otherwise how could there even be such a sin as fornication?

Being "one flesh" is something that should be reserved for marriage. But obviously (as in 1 Cor 6:16) all sexual bonding (one flesh) doesn't happen in marriage.
Also as far as getting divorced. Jesus didn't say "stop sleeping with them". He said give them a certificate of divorce. (Matt 19:7-8)
Although if you do keep sleeping with them, now it's back to fornication.

In Lev 22:16 it says if a man sleeps with a (virgin/maidenyoung woman) who isn't married, he is supposed to pay a dowry and then marry her. Why would he need to marry her again, if he was already married to her because he slept with her?

 

[jari]

As far as not judging others. Where does the Bible say this? I hear this quoted quite often, however what the Bible really says is....

We will be forgiven as we forgive others, we will be judged as we judge others, but it doesn't say not to judge other believers, in fact it in 1 Cor 5:10-13

It tells us we SHOULD judge other believers. (But not un-believers).
1 Cor 5:12 For what do I have to do with judging non-believers? We are to judge those who are within the church.

i don't think we are suposed to judge at all. because Jesus said don't judge... 1cor 5 seems to be more about good company versus bad company than "judging".
judging typically means condeming others and i don't think that's how churches are run. only legalistic, hypocritical churches run like that.

As Jesus never judged no one. if people judge thats excluding them from grace. But i think this ethic is about good company only, seperated from those who don't mind their sin of fornication..... but not judging them as unsaved.
sadly lot christias judge others as lost if they dont fit their standards.

being imperfect and not minding sins are also two different things. we never should judge others imperfection.

 

[Coconut]

I`m chewing on John 4:16 ....mnnn...

Thou almost persuadest me

Seriously, this discussion is giving me food for thought, so thank you.

 

[B-A-C]

Is it really true? Are we not supposed to judge one another?
Mat 7:1 "Do not judge so that you will not be judged.
Many people take this verse and stop there,
But then it goes on to tell us to be careful how we judge others.
Mat 7:2 "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your
standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
Mat 7:3 "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye,
but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?
Mat 7:4 "Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out
of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?
Mat 7:5 "You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and
then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Did Jesus judge anyone?
Joh 5:30 "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge;
and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will
of Him who sent Me.
Joh 8:26 "I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but
He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I
speak to the world."
Mat 23:33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the
sentence of hell?
Mat 23:34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men
and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them
you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
Mat 23:35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous
blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of
Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple
and the altar.
Mat 12:34 "You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is
good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart.
Joh 2:14 And He found in the temple those who were selling oxen and
sheep and doves, and the money changers seated at their tables.
Joh 2:15 And He made a scourge of cords, and drove them all out of the
temple, with the sheep and the oxen; and He poured out the coins of the
money changers and overturned their tables;
Joh 2:16 and to those who were selling the doves He said, "Take these
things away; stop making My Father's house a place of business."
Joh 2:17 His disciples remembered that it was written, "ZEAL FOR YOUR
HOUSE WILL CONSUME ME."
Are we never supposed to Judge anyone?
Joh 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with
righteous judgment."
1Co 11:13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God
with her head uncovered?

Are we to ask others to judge what we are doing sometimes?
Act 4:19 But Peter and John answered and said to them, "Whether it is
right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be
the judge;
Judging people who do not believe the Bible doesn't help, there is no
standard to agree on. We are supposed to judge other believers.
1Co 5:9 I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
1Co 5:10 I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world,
or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you
would have to go out of the world.
1Co 5:11 But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any
so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an
idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat
with such a one.
1Co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge
those who are within the church?
1Co 5:13 But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN
FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
Are we supposed to use scripture to judge and correct others?
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching,
for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
Luk 17:3 "Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he
repents, forgive him.
1Ti 5:20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so
that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
Tit 1:13 This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely
so that they may be sound in the faith,

2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove,
rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.
1Ti 1:19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected
and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.
1Ti 1:20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed
over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

Should we judge the character of others in the Church?
1Ti 3:1 It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office
of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
1Ti 3:2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one
wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1Ti 3:3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free
from the love of money.
1Ti 3:4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his
children under control with all dignity
1Ti 3:5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household,
how will he take care of the church of God?),
1Ti 3:6 and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and
fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
1Ti 3:7 And he must have a good reputation with those outside the
church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the
devil.
1Ti 3:8 Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or
addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,
1Ti 3:9 but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear
conscience.
1Ti 3:10 These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as
deacons if they are beyond reproach.
1Ti 5:9 A widow is to be put on the list only if she is not less than
sixty years old, having been the wife of one man,
1Ti 5:10 having a reputation for good works; and if she has brought up
children, if she has shown hospitality to strangers, if she has washed
the saints' feet, if she has assisted those in distress, and if she has
devoted herself to every good work.
1Ti 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the
basis of two or three witnesses.
1Ti 5:20 Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so
that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
1Ti 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ
Jesus and of His chosen angels, to maintain these principles without
bias, doing nothing in a spirit of partiality.

1Ti 5:22 Do not lay hands upon anyone too hastily and thereby share
responsibility for the sins of others; keep yourself free from sin.
Tit 1:6 namely, if any man is above reproach, the husband of one wife,
having children who believe, not accused of dissipation or rebellion.
Tit 1:7 For the overseer must be above reproach as God's steward, not
self-willed, not quick-tempered, not addicted to wine, not pugnacious,
not fond of sordid gain,
Tit 1:8 but hospitable, loving what is good, sensible, just, devout,
self-controlled,
Tit 1:9 holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the
teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and
to refute those who contradict.
Tit 1:10 For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and
deceivers, especially those of the circumcision,
Tit 1:11 who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole
families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid
gain.
Tit 1:16 They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him,
being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.
Tit 3:10 Reject a factious man after a first and second warning,
Mat 18:15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private;
if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
Mat 18:16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with
you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE
CONFIRMED.
Mat 18:17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and
if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a
Gentile and a tax collector.

 

[jari]

the word judge has so many applications in the bible.
it can mean judging sins.
it can mean judging one as true God's servant.
it can be used to condemn others
it can be used to correct others
it can be used if brethen has wronged you
it can be used to judge one's heart to be not right
and probably many more....


and while john called people to repent Jesus seemed more tolerable:
(Mat 3:11) I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:


(Mat 9:13) But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

And Jesus didn't judge anyone or condemn:

(Joh 8:11) She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.


(Joh 8:15) Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.



(Joh 12:47) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Only if we reject Jesus there's judgement:

(Joh 12:48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

 

[B-A-C]

(Mat 9:13) But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

And Jesus didn't judge anyone or condemn:

(Joh 12:47) And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

Only if we reject Jesus there's judgement:

(Joh 12:48) He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Great verses!!! I certainly agree with these 3.
But I notice these 3 in particular, are talking about non-believers.
He who hears my words - AND BELIEVES NOT.
He THAT REJECTS me.
SINNERS to repentance (not the righteous (saved))

I believe these go with 1Cor 5, don't judge non-believers, but judge believers. Like you said judging means many things, I can not judge if someone is saved or not. I can not judge someone's heart (yet we all do) but I can judge whether or not they are living the walk or talking the walk.

Another thing I agree with is that Jesus would much rather forgive us and give mercy and grace to us.

 

[B-A-C]

I`m chewing on John 4:16 ....mnnn...

Thou almost persuadest me

Seriously, this discussion is giving me food for thought, so thank you.

You have some good points also. I certainly consider this discussion iron sharpening iron

 

[jari]

But I notice these 3 in particular, are talking about non-believers.
He who hears my words - AND BELIEVES NOT.

to me this means belivers are not judged by God and His word. only unbelievers....

because we are also not under law.

 

[Coconut]

Mal 2:14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

Marriage, is more than sex. It is a covenant.

I'm sure God would see it as "not the person you are having sex with" but rather the person you made the vows and covenant with.
I suppose you could argue and say, I can make vows and promises to someone on my own, I don't need a Preacher or Justice of the Peace, or some piece of paper to do that. Well, Ok maybe that's true, but if it is, then sex isn't what made you "married".

The problem here is, the covenant has never been one of spoken vows, (according to scripture) so no, promises made between a man and woman are not valid before God, whether made in private or before a clergy or audience. The only covenant God ordained in marriage, was the covenant of the blood. When a man took a virgin wife under the old covenant, he had to show a rag with the blood on it from the breaking of the hymen of his virgin, as proof they had become one flesh, and this was the sign of Gods covenant with him concerning his wife. So you see how sex IS the covenant made before God, as the scripture says "The LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth"


Heb 9:20 saying, "This is the blood of the covenant that God ordained for you."
Heb 9:21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and everything used in worship.
Heb 9:22 In fact, under the Law almost everything is cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of the blood there is no forgiveness.

That`s all for now, I`m still looking at the scriptures you posted...but while i`m chewing, I thought I would give you something to chew on to.