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Living in Sin?

The problem here is, the covenant has never been one of spoken vows, (according to scripture) so no, promises made between a man and woman are not valid before God, whether made in private or before a clergy or audience. The only covenant God ordained in marriage, was the covenant of the blood. When a man took a virgin wife under the old covenant, he had to show a rag with the blood on it from the breaking of the hymen of his virgin, as proof they had become one flesh, and this was the sign of Gods covenant with him concerning his wife. So you see how sex IS the covenant made before God, as the scripture says "The LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth".

That`s all for now, I`m still looking at the scriptures you posted...but while i`m chewing, I thought I would give you something to chew on to.

I think the covenant of remission sins might be differerent from marriage, but I need to do some research there.

I will say, if this is correct, then a man can only be married to a virgin. (This doesn't seem right because of the Samaritan woman in John 4 that had 5 husbands) and a virgin woman that was raped would be married to her attacker.

I find it difficult to think the woman in the stpry below remained a virgin through all 5 marriages.
Mat 22:23 On that day some Sadducees (who say there is no resurrection) came to Jesus and questioned Him,
Mat 22:24 asking, "Teacher, Moses said, 'IF A MAN DIES HAVING NO CHILDREN, HIS BROTHER AS NEXT OF KIN SHALL MARRY HIS WIFE, AND RAISE UP CHILDREN FOR HIS BROTHER.'
Mat 22:25 "Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no children left his wife to his brother;
Mat 22:26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh.
Mat 22:27 "Last of all, the woman died.
Mat 22:28 "In the resurrection, therefore, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had married her."
 
When confronting a Chriatian couple who are cohabiting their response is much like " don't judge me, Jesus said we are not to judge each other. This sidetracts the subject and takes the spotlight away from their action of cohabiting, which is sin.

"When He (Holy Spirit)comes, He will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgement" (Jn 16:8)

It is absolutely necessary to avoid confronting others about their sin without being in prayer for a sufficient time, seeking God/'s will as to what to say and when to say it. Its the Spirit's job to convict them of sin, not mine. My role is to say what He tells me to say to them when He tells me to say it. Without these two bits of instruction from the Spirit, I continue to pray for them, but I keep my mouth shut.

SLE
 
BAC, I should`nt have written "When a man took a virgin wife under the old covenant..." because although I did read somewhere that it was a Jewish custom at one time, I have not read this practice as having been ordained by God in scripture, so I have invalidated my own point, by doing exactly what I wish not to do. :embarasse

Also, tho I have read many times by various Bible commentators that there is a deep spiritual significance in a virgin bride shedding blood on her wedding night, I have no specific scriptures to support this view. And, tho I truly see the varied marriage ceremonies as practiced by the Jews and Christians then and now as merely customs, because again, I see no where that God lays down any rules for this practice, i`m rather confused about the whole subject. A couple can get a marriage license at any courthouse, without any actual marriage ceremony and it is accepted by both church and state. So to me it all goes back to when does GOD consider a couple to be married. Maybe marriage in Gods eyes requires witnesses?

These are the points I see scripture for:

+The Bible word sometimes translated fornication does not mean ‘sex before marriage.’

+Under Old Testament law, casual sex was impossible. For an unmarried man to have sex with an unmarried woman was to make an even more binding commitment than normal marriage.

+In God’s eyes, a one night stand makes two people one.

+In the Bible, marriage celebrations were purely secular. (not commanded by God)

And last but not least:

+Christians are free to break away from any Church practice, tradition, or custom that is not commanded by God.

I really don`t want to cause confusion for the readers. so I need to leave this alone until I gain further understanding on it.

Imagine a Talk Jesus where there are no Coconuts causing confusion
 
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I really don`t want to cause confusion for the readers. so I need to leave this alone until I gain further understanding on it.
You did bring up some interesting considerations.
This thread has made me consider my own position and I realized I didn't really have much scripture to go on.There seems to be way more doctrines of men than commands in scripture.

One way I like to simplify these things is to go back to Noah.
God made an unconditional covenant with the world and as far as I can see it was never revoked.

The Hebrews would have done what their cultures dictated but the Gentiles under the covenant of Noah (or the rainbow covenant)

Noah's covenant:
1. blesses[9:1] and commands[9:7][5] Noah and his sons, that they should be fruitful and multiply, and populate the Earth.

2. places all plants and animals under human command[9:2-3]

3. forbids eating meat with the blood still in it[9:4]

4. forbids murder[9:5]

5.Says that violent men will be repaid by violence[9:6]

6. promises that God will never again destroy all life on earth by flood[9:11]
7.creates the rainbow as the sign of this "everlasting covenant" for all ages to come[9:12-17]

If you were not under the law of Moses there were no rules regarding marriage at all.
As far as I can tell Gentiles who became believers were only required to avoid fornication and things strangled.

Act 21:25 "But concerning the Gentiles who have believed, we wrote, having decided that they should abstain from meat sacrificed to idols and from blood and from what is strangled and from fornication."

There are plenty of marriages that are legitimate but not even close to one flesh.We seem to treat it a little like salvation,your saved unless your not and we won't know until your dead.
Incidentally while the Gentiles were not offered eternal life before Jesus,they were not threatened with eternal punishment either.
 
BAC, I should`nt have written "When a man took a virgin wife under the old covenant..." because although I did read somewhere that it was a Jewish custom at one time, I have not read this practice as having been ordained by God in scripture, so I have invalidated my own point, by doing exactly what I wish not to do. :embarasse

Been there, done that :-)

Also, tho I have read many times by various Bible commentators that there is a deep spiritual significance in a virgin bride shedding blood on her wedding night, I have no specific scriptures to support this view. And, tho I truly see the varied marriage ceremonies as practiced by the Jews and Christians then and now as merely customs, because again, I see no where that God lays down any rules for this practice, i`m rather confused about the whole subject. A couple can get a marriage license at any courthouse, without any actual marriage ceremony and it is accepted by both church and state. So to me it all goes back to when does GOD consider a couple to be married. Maybe marriage in Gods eyes requires witnesses?

There seems to be some misconception here also. The Bible says blood is required for forgiveness of sins ( Heb 9:22 ). But I don't see anywhere in the Bible that is required for a covenant. The Bible does say that the difference between a promise and covenant is that one lasts until there is a death. ( Heb 9:16 )
I believe it's God purpose that a marriage should last "until death do us part".
In fact in Heb 6:13, all it took for God to make a covenant was swearing the promise to himself.

+The Bible word sometimes translated fornication does not mean ‘sex before marriage.’

From Strongs.
G4202
πορνεία
porneia
por-ni'-ah
From G4203; harlotry (including adultery and incest); figuratively idolatry: - fornication.

Hmmm.. somewhat vague. So what does Harlot mean?
H2181
זנה
zânâh
zaw-naw'
A primitive root (highly fed and therefore wanton); to commit adultery (usually of the female, and less often of simple forniciation, rarely of involuntary ravishment); figuratively to commit idolatry (the Jewish people being regarded as the spouse of Jehovah): - (cause to) commit fornication, X continually, X great, (be an, play the) harlot, (cause to be, play the) *****, (commit, fall to) whoredom, (cause to) go a-*******, whorish.

G4204
πόρνη
pornē
por'-nay
Feminine of G4205; a strumpet; figuratively an idolater: - harlot, *****.

H6948
קדשׁה
qedêshâh
ked-ay-shaw'
Feminine of H6945; a female devotee (that is, prostitute): - harlot, *****.

First, I doubt most men want to marry a ( *****/harlot/prostitute/strumpet ) take your pick.
Second, if sex is all that is required for two people to be married, then harlots/strumpets must be married to several men all at the same time.
While polygamy was practiced in the OT, it was frowned upon in the NT.
( Matt 5:27-28, Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, Mark 10:12, etc...)

+Under Old Testament law, casual sex was impossible. For an unmarried man to have sex with an unmarried woman was to make an even more binding commitment than normal marriage.
This wasn't the case in Exod 22:16
Exo 22:16 "If a man seduces a virgin who is not engaged, and lies with her, he must pay a dowry for her to be his wife.

Prov 7:7-22 paint a pretty dire picture of this type of woman. Perhaps a worse picture for the man who falls for her.

In 2 Sam 11:5 Bathsheba says she got pregnant from David. Yet later in verse 26 the Bible says she was still the wife of Uriah, even though David was the last person she "slept" with.

+In God’s eyes, a one night stand makes two people one.

John 4:15 The woman *said to Him, "Sir, give me this water, so I will not be thirsty nor come all the way here to draw."
John 4:16 He *said to her, "Go, call your husband and come here."
John 4:17 The woman answered and said, "I have no husband." Jesus *said to her, "You have correctly said, 'I have no husband';
John 4:18 for you have had five husbands, and the one whom you now have is not your husband; this you have said truly."

Apparently Jesus didn't see it that way.

+In the Bible, marriage celebrations were purely secular. (not commanded by God)

And last but not least:

+Christians are free to break away from any Church practice, tradition, or custom that is not commanded by God.

Mal 2:14 "Yet you say, 'For what reason?' Because the LORD has been a witness between you and the wife of your youth, against whom you have dealt treacherously, though she is your companion and your wife by covenant.

Again, I would say, it's the covenant and vows that make a marriage. The commitment. Not the sex. Sex outside of marriage is fornication, the Bible may not always call fornication "sex outside of marriage", but it always calls sex outside of marriage either fornication or adultery.

I would ask you what constitutes a divorce? Can there be a divorce without a marriage?

I would also ask, if sex is all it takes for someone to be married, what is the difference between a harlot/prostitute and a wife?

What is your definition of fornication? What is your definition of adultery? What is the difference between these and getting "married" by sex?
Heb 13:4 Marriage is to be held in honor among all, and the marriage bed is to be undefiled; for fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

1Tim 4:1 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons,
1Tim 4:2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron,
1Tim 4:3 men who refuse to get married and advocate abstaining from foods which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.
 
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I have looked at the scriptures, and this remains my understanding on this subject as of right now.

My original question was "when does GOD see two people as married?"

Seeing that Genesis 2:24, Matt 19:5, Matt 19:6, Mark 10:8, 1Cor 6:16, Eph 5:31 all reiterate what GOD said in Genesis - that a man would be joined to the woman, and they would be "one flesh", and no more of a requirement is given, (and no less) - then I have to conclude that when a man sexually unites with a woman, a most serious, life altering transaction (or covenant if you will) has taken place in the sight of GOD.

If "one flesh" does not mean GOD deems them married, then I don`t know what in the world it does mean. If it means GOD deems them married, then that makes the notion of premarital sex an oxymoron.
It would be impossible to "pre-marry", if the "pre" IS the "marry"

Further, if the sexual union is marriage, the only way the couple involved would be "living in sin", is if they were not faithful to that (first) union. (we are solely addressing what constitutes marriage here - not adultery, fornication, or any subsequent need for annulment or pardon - God knows)

This view does not undermine marriage, (as some may think it is an attempt to do) very much the opposite, it returns man to the place where he is accountable to God, and not men. Sexual accountability before God is an issue of the heart.

Man said, "I have`nt committed adultery unless it involves some sort of act" Mat 5:27
Jesus said "If a man even looks at a woman with lustful intent, he has committed adultery" Mat 5:28

This shows the stark contrast between how man views sexual fidelity and how God views it.

It also proves that a man can perform an act (before God) in his heart, without having taken any further action.(re: marriage)

What is Paul saying in this statement when he says "a man is not sinning, let them marry"?

1Co 7:36 "If a man thinks he is not behaving properly toward his virgin, and if his passion is so strong that he feels he ought to marry her, let him do what he wants; he is not sinning. Let them marry."

Is he suggesting that sometimes marriage, according to popular definition, is a sin? That would`nt make any sense, because we never consider marriage to be sin. According to my understanding, he must be saying, "he is not sinning, let them marry (become one flesh)"


I am well aware this view is mostly rejected, but one must ask themselves this: If God ,being a God of detail, gave very detailed instructions to His people on how to conduct their lives, especially so where it concerns 'morality', but never once gave any instruction commanding (public) nuptials or ceremonies for marriage under the old covenant or new, where do we get the idea that marriage (a man and woman uniting before God in the bond of holy matrimony) must involve some sort of public profession of commitment before men? Where? Because Jews adopted the tradition of having elaborate wedding celebrations? The Jews loved their traditions. Is that to be our final answer? Tradition?

The scripture, both OT and NT, are full of 'spiritual' allegory pertaining to Jewish way of life, traditions and practices, wedding ceremonies being one of them. (The kingdom of God is like...) Yes, Jesus even attended a wedding ceremony. Must we view this as an endorsement of the belief that for two people to become "one" it must involve the participation of others, or at least be witnessed by others? If so, what do we do with all the spiritual allegory pertaining to farming and fishing etc, should we insist God must want us to join a communal and live off the land?

"For the past two years I have had a growing concern that the Christian community has passively watched the "dumbing down" of the marriage covenant. Marriage has become little more than an upgraded social contract between two people—not a holy covenant between a man and a woman and their God for a lifetime."

http://www.preceptaustin.org/the_covenant_of_marriage.htm
 
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I think the answer to when a person is married is two fold, the marriage ceremony where publicly the bride and groom make promises to each other and to God to uphold a marriage relationship rooted in love, and then the act of consumation on the wedding night. They go together and should not be separated or out of order. It is only man who has mixed everything up.
With those two the couple is definitely married. Otherwise they are not.
Its pretty simple.
A divorce breaks that covenant between the two and tears one apart. That is why it is so painful, its like one person ripped into two, because they have become one.
People just sleeping together does not make them married, people living together does not make them married, its God's blessing on them and the sexual act that makes them married. And I really do not know what to think about a marriage license at a justice of the peace. I don't believe, the marriage ceremony was ever meant to be that way.
 
1Co 5:1 Your own members are aware that there is sexual sin going on among them. This kind of sin is not even heard of among unbelievers-a man is actually married to his father's wife.
:2 You're being arrogant when you should have been more upset about this. If you had been upset, the man who did this would have been removed from among you.
:3 Although I'm not physically present with you, I am with you in spirit. I have already judged the man who did this as though I were present with you.
:4 When you have gathered together, I am with you in spirit. Then, in the name of our Lord Jesus, and with his power,
:5 hand such a person over to Satan to destroy his corrupt nature so that his spiritual nature may be saved on the day of the Lord.
:6 It's not good for you to brag. Don't you know that a little yeast spreads through the whole batch of dough?
:7 Remove the old yeast of sin so that you may be a new batch of dough, since you don't actually have the yeast of sin. Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed.
:8 So we must not celebrate our festival with the old yeast of sin or with the yeast of vice and wickedness. Instead, we must celebrate it with the bread of purity and truth that has no yeast.
:9 In my letter to you I told you not to associate with people who continue to commit sexual sins.
:10 I didn't tell you that you could not have any contact with unbelievers who commit sexual sins, are greedy, are dishonest, or worship false gods. If that were the case, you would have to leave this world.
:11 Now, what I meant was that you should not associate with people who call themselves brothers or sisters in the Christian faith but live in sexual sin, are greedy, worship false gods, use abusive language, get drunk, or are dishonest. Don't eat with such people.
:12 After all, do I have any business judging those who are outside the Christian faith? Isn't it your business to judge those who are inside?
:13 God will judge those who are outside. Remove that wicked man from among you.

It seems that in todays society.. there are many "Christians" living together.. (not married) and yet still consider themselves "good Godly Christians" they have 100 excuses on why they are doing it, maybe it's financially easier, maybe they even have Children together, maybe the state they are living in recognizes "common-law" marriage. But man's laws are not God's laws. Some states also recognize same-sex marriage, but that doesn't mean God is alright with it.
How have we become so calloused to sin, maybe we have friends who "live together" and we are Ok with it, and even encouraging them and their "relationship". The bottom line is.. sin is sin, no matter what you call it. Yes God loves you and will forgive you.. but you need to repent... Get married if thats what it takes... move out if thats what it takes... maybe you are afraid they will leave you.. and maybe they will... but should any relationship be more important than your relationship with God?
- B-A-C

Hi,

I'd like to suggest something completely different from whats been discussed so far. God's word is spiritual, so we should see it in spiritual terms.

Consider 1Cor 2:13,14.
"These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned"

Note how 1Cor 5:5,6 speaks of "leaven"?
"Your glorying is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened. For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us."

So, what is this "leaven" that should be purged out?
Consider Matt 16:11,12;
"How is it you do not understand that I did not speak to you concerning bread?—but to beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and Sadducees.” Then they understood that He did not tell them to beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees."

The leaven/doctrine of the Pharisees and Sadducees was establishing righteousness through works of the law (instead of submitting to the righteousness of God, Rom 10:3).

Note also Gal 5:9 "A little leaven leavens the whole lump."
This chapter warns also against being being justified by the law.

We cannot mix grace and works of the law, Rom 11:6. To do so is spiritual sexual immorality. And this is what 1Cor 5 speaks about.

Also consider Heb 12:15-16:
" looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled; 16 lest there be any fornicator or profane person like Esau, who for one morsel of food sold his birthright."

Here we see again the spiritual context of fornication, being "falling short of the grace of God". Scriptures offer many warnings against going under works of the law, establishing your own righteousness without Christ. This is sexual immorality scriptures warn against.

blessings
 
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Jesus told the woman at the well that the man she was living with was not her husband. He told her to go and sin no more.
That would imply a marriage ceremony was necessary in the eyes of God. Otherwise he would not have mentioned it.
 
Jesus told the woman at the well that the man she was living with was not her husband. He told her to go and sin no more.
That would imply a marriage ceremony was necessary in the eyes of God. Otherwise he would not have mentioned it.

Just for the sake of accuracy, He did not tell her to "go and sin no more." He said that to the adulteress the Pharisees brought to Him.

That being said, I don't think there is any way to not recognize that the Lord does indeed expect us to get a "marriage certificate" in order to formally recognize marriages. Indeed, even in the Old Testament, Moses was giving out "certificates of divorce" to hard-hearted Israelites.

Matthew 5
31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
 
We cannot mix grace and works of the law, Rom 11:6.

"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished." (Mt 5:18)

Barny, I think your phrase "...and works of the law" should be amended to say "...and dependence upon works of the law." The law is still in full force and effect (Mt 5:19). Christ redeemed us not from the law, but from the curse of the law (the curse of legalism). Its interesting that Gal 3:14 shows us that Abraham, who had the law written on his heart (Ro 2:14) was saved by faith just as we are, not by legalistic observances of any sort.

SLE
 
BAC you quoted scriptures on fornication, and then gave this definition of fornication:

From Merriam-Webster.com
Fornication: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other

Compare to Strongs definition:

Fornication: harlotry (including adultery and incest)
(In Mat_5:32 Jesus refers to a married man or woman committing fornication.)

So your definition is correct, except it leaves something out. It still does not define what "marriage" is.

I suppose you could say this doesn't define everything that marriage is. I wonder if you could fit all of that in any book? But it doe define one of the things that marriage isn't. And that is "sleeping together" (sexual intercourse) between two people not married to each other.
 
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the law until everything is accomplished." (Mt 5:18)

Barny, I think your phrase "...and works of the law" should be amended to say "...and dependence upon works of the law." The law is still in full force and effect (Mt 5:19). Christ redeemed us not from the law, but from the curse of the law (the curse of legalism). Its interesting that Gal 3:14 shows us that Abraham, who had the law written on his heart (Ro 2:14) was saved by faith just as we are, not by legalistic observances of any sort.

SLE

Hi SpiritLed,

Reading Matt 5:17-30 gives us a picture of the obedience required under the law. As Jesus said in Matt 5:20, "unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Even the legalists today fail to obey the law (example: the Seventh Day Adventists). They claim to have "imparted" righteousness and argue that through this "imparted" righteousness God enables them to obey the law, and yet they fail to obey it. They don't even observe the Sabbath correctly.

For such who determine righteousness by works of the law we see Gal 3:10,11 say: "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”

Note Gal 3:12 "the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

Also note Rom 14:23 "whatever is not of faith is sin"

Any people who are under the law, thus establishing their own righteousness, are in sin. And the wages of sin is death.

As you know the law was a "tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith" Gal 3:24.
"But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor." Gal 3:25.

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." Rom 10:3
"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2

Instead of righteousness by works of the law, our righteousness is accounted to us by faith.
"Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham" Gal 3:6-9
 
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Now let me give a SEVERE warning!

If you live a life in sin you will die!

Ezekiel 18:24
But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ezekiel 33:12
Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

Ezekiel 33:13
When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

Has got nothing to do with legalism or works salvation! you always need to turn away from your sins, repent and confess to God! FUTURE SIN IS NOT ALREADY FORGIVEN! You always need to repent and confess first! The Blood of The Lord Jesus Christ is never ever a license to wilfully sin or to be used as to live in sin! God forbid! How wicked! SIN WILL DESTROY YOU!

Adultery is sin and so is fornication!

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Know ye not that the unrighteousshall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

i am calling you to repent: if you are in adultery or fornication you need to repent, you do not know when is your last breath is going to be, it could all be over tomorrow and if you die in your sins you will not enter into the Kingdom of God!

Let this be a warning!

Living in sin = DEATH
 
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c

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death." Rom 8:2

Barny, among other things the Ten Commandments say "You must not steal". You seem to believe that the Law has been done away with. If that is true, how can theft still be a punishable offense in the 21st century?

SLE
 
Barny, among other things the Ten Commandments say "You must not steal". You seem to believe that the Law has been done away with. If that is true, how can theft still be a punishable offense in the 21st century?

SLE

Hi SpiritLed,

What we're talking about is, how is righteousness determined.
Righteousness is either through the law or by faith.

If your under the law of sin and death (aka, law of righteousness) then that is what determines/judges your righteousness. And to offend in just one point you are guilty of all of it, James 2:10. And the wages of sin (1John3:4) is death. Gal 2:18 tells us that to build again the law for yourself you make yourself a transgressor (sinner). Gal 3:10 shows that "as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse".

For Christians, we choose righteousness by faith, Gal 5:5.

Now regarding the theft example you suggested, theft is wrong, and any Christian who does such would be disciplined by God. For example, King David did not profit from his adultery and murder.
But our lifestyle should be one of love. And love does no ill to another, Rom 13:10
 
Now regarding the theft example you suggested, theft is wrong, and any Christian who does such would be disciplined by God.

"Now we know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin." (Ro 7:14)

The law, being spiritual, is still in effect. The law that I have in mind is the Ten Commandments and I think Paul was referring to them also in this quote because he was writing to Gentiles in Rome.

SLE
 
Hello SpiritLed.

I most certainly would be in disagreement with your statement.

The law, being spiritual, is still in effect. The law that I have in mind
is the Ten Commandments and I think Paul was referring to them also
in this quote because he was writing to Gentiles in Rome.


Please do not take the following as an offense SpiritLed.

If Paul is only addressing the Gentiles in the Roman Church,
why does Paul make a statements such as these;

Romans 2

17 Indeed you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, 18 and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, 19 and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20 an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. 21 You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” as it is written.


Sure appears to be a Jewish component within the Church that Paul is
addressing SpiritLed. Would be grateful for your understanding of these
passage given your comment on Romans.
 
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"Now we know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin." (Ro 7:14)

The law, being spiritual, is still in effect. The law that I have in mind is the Ten Commandments and I think Paul was referring to them also in this quote because he was writing to Gentiles in Rome.

SLE

Hi SpiritLed,

I agree, the law is spiritual, Rom 7:14.
Also we see "the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good" Rom 7:12

BUT, "what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh" Rom 8:3

WHY did God send his Son?
"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Rom 8:4

And Christians "are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit" Rom 8:9
And "if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law" Gal 5:18.

"For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." Rom 10:3

NOTE. Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.
So how do we attain righteousness?
By faith or the law?

"But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;" Rom 9:31-32

The law is not in effect for Christians, regarding righteousness. Our righteousness is by faith instead. We have submitted to the righteousness of God. We are led by the Spirit and no longer walk according to the flesh.

The Spiritual law is still in effect, but not in regards to our righteousness.

Also we see that "I delight in the law of God according to the inward man." Rom 7:22.
Our "inward man" is Christ in us. He delights after the spiritual law. Hence we see Rom 2:14,15
"for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the (spiritual) law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, "

This is not speaking of Christians being able to live a perfect life in the physical . It is speaking of Christ in us, our inward man.

By the way, note Rom 7:14 you quoted. "but I am carnal, sold under sin". This is not talking about Christians as we were set free from sin, Rom 6:7, John 8:36.
Either "with the mind (Spirit) I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin" Rom 7:25. Either the Spirit OR the flesh rules. For Christians its the Spirit that rules. Remember we are no longer walk in the flesh but in the Spirit instead.
 
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